Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Arturo Sanchez on June 20, 2015, 12:57:09 pm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4glPEk-9x60
I mean lookit that.
Thats some sluggish turning. In the old Pyra most pilots kept arc mainly to clever predictive than "too op turning."
A mortar nerf might have fixed the majority of the whining about the metamidion. lower its explosive increase its shatter.
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Can you talk about balance of a ship when it is the only ship taken in a match? If there are only Goldfish or only Galleons in a match, chances are the one who has arc first has an easier time.
In a match of only Pyramidions, there is no other possibility than turning the front to the enemy as soon as possible. A Pyramidion is too slow to escape even another Pyramidion and when a Pyramidion trys to hydrogen out of the way, chances are the other one is just as fast, as long as the pilot has good reflexes. Same with only Goldfish and only Galleons against each other, with all the ships having the same speed, there is barely any outmanouvering, there is only hoping that the other pilots and crew make more mistakes or have worse reflexes.
I don't want to remember that match.
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I just want pyra to be back to being a slow turner with fast forward acceleration (and the hull to effectively use it).
Not a light galleon...
It doesn't have to be back to its former glory. Just speed up its forward thrust to more than it is now and its hull to be higher than it is now but not as high as b4.
And ye... the mortar idea. I just want the ships to be back to the way they were meant to be played.
And I showed this particular match because of that ramming and losing arc and the time taken to regain arc. All the same ships, all sluggishly trying to maintain arcs on each other. And as demonstrated by every ship there were ways to avoid giving arcs wit either vertical movement or forward movement. Sure a squid or goldfish might have showed more (the way I use to counter them by flying to the blindside and circling with the pyra hard clawing and me shooting its engines-all while using goldfish carro flame bifecta).
reflecting on those complaints. I stick to what I said then that pyra was fine (I'd be ok with a slight general nerf-but what happened to it was way too harsh). Like all ships it had its weaknesses. Not exactly the fault of the ship if people were too dumb to exploit them.
also ye... the "they ain't no leuosi"... yeesh... that musta burned to hear.
What next? blenderfish too OP? oh wait... crazy king too hard?
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Revert back to the old horizontal acceleration. It doesn't need turning or hull if it has speed.
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I 2nd this move to make the Pyra even more shitty than it already is. Return us to the lawn dart days and make sure it's hull stays ultra weak making it's ram ability non existent. Then Goldfish, Squids, heck even Junkers can fly around it, laughing merrily all the way while the Pyra's crew curses the day their captain was born for even picking such a useless ship.
Heck lets just take away all turning entirely, make the Pyra only able to move in 2 directions and have to be turned by Allies who gently ram it in the direction it needs to go! Yay!!!
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All I know is, a pyra+good captain = mostly wins.
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All I know is, a pyra+good captain = mostly wins.
(http://static.thefrisky.com/uploads/2013/06/03/you-know-nothing-06-0313-400x300.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLisM2KPDIA
But yes...
Pyra au natural as you can see by the footage was a sluggish turner but was heavily used as a forward facing ram boat.
Now its hull was nerfed to make ramming a laughable prospect, its turning and speed apparently made comparably as slow as a galleon with none of the hull to compensate.
I mean... wtf is a pyra these days but a squid (hull)-galleon(movement)? It needs some of its former glory returned to it. Partial hull buff, greater forward thrust, keep the turning nerf to stop the whining about the classic pyra returning.
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If a captain in a pyra has mostly wins now days, he is either always against easier opponents, or he is a good tactician with a good crew...
Everything the pyra can do, other ships can do too..
The only two things the Pyra has against other ships is its compact size, making it harder for mid level gunners to hit, and making it easier to be sneaky with... But the squid has a similar size...
And the pyra is easy to maintain, which only benefits lower levels, once crew learn to crew, Junkers, Squids, Mobula and Spires they will not need the Pyra.
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The pyra is outgunned at range and isn't maneuverable enough for close. It used to be good because it's very easy to crew and was fast, but now it's practically as slow as a galleon. Pyramidion has acceleration of 2.25 m/s^2 and galleon 2.1 m/s^2, and max speeds of 30.35 and 30.02.
The pyra had 2 assets: fast and easy. Now it's the same speed as galleon. Turning speed was always ok and not the issue. The hull health is low but it always had mediocre hull and died quick. The problem is that a charging pyra is no longer scary.
The pyra is a brawl ship that no longer excels at brawling. It was the most used ship in pub matches and competitive and needed a nerf, but speed wasn't the answer because that's half what it's good at. It only worked at range because it was easy (and small). I think the hull nerf was ok.
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Skrimskraw said something about it being good at ambushing and the like and he is right. The Pyramidion is not as big as a Spire or Galleon, has more fire power on the front than the Squid and Junker and is easier to manouver through these ambush paths than a Mobula. The only ship that can reach that level is the Goldfish, which is limited to the only three useful heavy guns in this game.
I guess the only way for that ship to be seen as good is if you think of it as some kind of Assassin/Infiltrator or something. On Dawn, the sneaky bits aren't there, because on Dawn you are easily visible from pretty much everywhere and if a Pyra would go under the boat in the middle of the map, it would face an instant disadvantage in arcs against the other Pyras, if it was to be spotted.
It's crewing is easier than most ships too and it is a good choice when the enemy has one too many Carronades. So it would probably make it the easiest playable "Assassin" ever created in multiplayer game history. Because in all other games it requires more skill to play the assassin when compared to other available classes/types. Yes.
The Pyramidion is more fucked up than anything else in the game, what the hell.
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All I know is, a pyra+good captain = mostly wins.
Ha ha ha ha...rofl....LMAO....oh wait...you're serious?
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The pyramidion is barely an assassin if the squid can do a better job than the pyramidion.
The pyramidion in it's current state has no real strengths.
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I mainly play on the para on CP. Normally a meta, just defending the point, moonshine and claw at the start to get there, all engis on the engines.
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I would not know. I rarely ever fly it in any state. I saw it as 'easy mode' when I started the game, so went straight for the ship that was seen as the weakest at the time (Galleon). Then I proceeded to kill all the Metamidians.
Maybe I will start taking it since it seems to take more skill to keep alive.
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I would not know. I rarely ever fly it in any state. I saw it as 'easy mode' when I started the game, so went straight for the ship that was seen as the weakest at the time (Galleon). Then I proceeded to kill all the Metamidians.
Maybe I will start taking it since it seems to take more skill to keep alive.
if by skill you mean point the front guns and hope you win a dps race thats easily loss depending on the angle the enemy ship rams your nose as well as the competence of your engie to fix a hull and your mortar gunners ability to shoot the mortar at 1. the right time 2. the correct accuracy. As well as your gunners ability.
Its really a ship that cant afford a single fk up. One crew in the wrong position, using the wrong ammo, firing the wrong part, pilot giving poor arcs... and it is a dead ship.
Because any minor mistake is heavily punished by the slow movement to regain arc, (seriously, a hard turn with claw is about the speed of a goldfish turn on forward throttle) AND the near cardboard-eque hull. All that armour in its aesthetic and it just takes a half a clip of gat to go.
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I also believe that Pyra is quite weak as it is now. Squids and Spires have almost double its hull health. Odd.
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I don't think more health would help. It's the speed of a galleon with only 2 front facing light guns. It's outgunned at range and not maneuverable enough for close. It's small, easy to crew, and previously was fast. Making it tanky isn't a fix, give it speed!
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Anything the pyra is supposedly strong at can be matched and bettered by other ships... The squid, similar in size and profile, although harder to crew on, can be just as sneaky, and more effectively as it can reach flank positions and with many weapons can perform bi-fecta it just requires more practice than the pyra, extra benefits, squids perma hull is much more tanky...
The problem?
The figures for Pyramidions being most used, and with a high win count are still very high.
This could be attributed to the sheer volume of guides and video tutorials revolving around the pyramidion, showing how to crew it effectively and lack of information for other ships, this making it still the primary choice.
Also the pyramidions ability to crew easily and find the right roles easier means that when pilots do choose other ships, their crews failing to perform on other ships means they go back to the easier option, pyramidion.
In all honesty I don't see the Pyramidion being given good balance anytime soon because of the statistics...
It may be time to go on Pyra strike...
Stop using them and start stomping them hard, force the statistics to show their real position in the game...
Also I agree with Blackened... It needs speed... If it can't tank a fight it should be able to put up a fight...
But the stats aware holding muse back
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I also believe that Pyra is quite weak as it is now. Squids and Spires have almost double its hull health. Odd.
that was the first major complaint of the nerf.
A ram ship with a hull nerf=wha?
But us being so use to old squid and only spire, that isn't the worst of it. What really screwed it up was its ability to charge an enemy ship nerfed.
A Pyra was the forefront charging ship. It gambled everything on a successful charge into the enemy, made fairly successful for its fast forward acceleration.
To top a charging pyra you had to either be a freakishly good disable the guns or well timed hwacha.
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Muse should really not make design decisions based on use or win counts. Its really dumb. I can see why they'd do it, but you can't make decisions on ships that are novice vessels. Squids win rate went up likely entirely because vets started using it again and beating the snot out of everyone. I almost exclusively use Squid now aside from Dunes where I'll use Rocketfish. But that is a small drop in the bucket because Fish and Pyras are novice selectable vessels. They are also easier to crew and pilot than squids. By using Muse's logic that means literally both Pyra and Fish should be nerfed to the point they have 1 point of hull HP and literally cannot move at all, just sit there in one spot shooting. Then you'll force people to stop using them and shift to other ships. Which is exceedingly dumb.
The Pyra cannot be balanced for current GOIO the way some of you want because the version everyone idolizes is from a version of the game that was inferior and needed the Pyra that way to be fun. The charging Pyra was established and worked because it had no equal. The game moved so piss poor slow and lagged like hell to the point a charging vessel had great advantages. Well after they nerfed sniper play into the toilet.
However, with stamina and the return to a higher speed play style of game, a slow vessel that cannot turn well and has poor HP is a liability. There are too many counters. The Galleon can be slow but it has broadsides that can turn the battle around quickly. Pyra has one massive blindspot. So if you make it rammy and turn like a beached whale, it won't help when you can just avoid it and get in the blindside. Sure it would work vs noobs but in competitive play, charges would be a huge liability. Now, make it very beefy, able to tank better, and you've got a chance to at least turn the tables as long as it isn't vs a rocketfish. But still, the vessel is a liability against fast ships right now.
The only option is to return the Pyra back to it's original, which no one but launch players remember. A Pyra which turned better, moved better, and was able to fend off faster vessels in the hands of a good pilot. Balance that with weaker hull and you've got a balanced vessel. Then as I've suggested many times now, you add a new "charging" exclusive vessel which has fewer blindspots so it can fend off faster vessels if it misses a charge.
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Mortars? I never fly meta. No mortars or gats on my Pyra. No flamers on any of my ships for the same reason. But sure, we can go with that.
My biggest issue with the Pyra is still the ridiculous weight used to compensate for the desire to make it a ramship. It accomplishes that OK, but messes up all the rest of the physics. Even a Galleon will half bounce off a Pyra when ramming. If it is to remain a 'ram' ship, a special ram mechanic needs to be added, doing more damage to the ship on the 'pointy' end of your ship. Then the mass can be nerfed to where it belongs.
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I always wanted the pyra to have a high top speed but bad acceleration. It should be devestating in straight forward charges/ rams, if it sets them up properly.
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It would be pretty hard to stop once you had it going if you had poor acceleration. Could be a good balance.
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How do you calculate max speed with tools? I think at max speed with tools it should be around goldfish speed, the max speeds are listed 30.35 pyra and 40.11 fish.
It needs more acceleration than currently. Spire has twice the acceleration of pyra (4.50 vs 2.25) and a max speed of 28. The hull health is ok and turning/vertical are fine, it needs speed. Rams are for control.
I don't think only upping the max speed is the answer because the acceleration is like a galleon (2.10). Maybe a balance of acceleration and speed.
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My guess for max speed with tools, based on real physics is the square root of the % of original thrust x original speed.
So for pyra with kerosene:
100%+150% = 250% thrust
sqrt(2.5) = 1.58
1.58 x 30.35 = 47.99
They might not implement it that way and i may have screwed up my math/physics but it seems reasonable
edit: you won't actually ever get that speed because by the time you accelerate to it your engines are damaged, adding a good guess for the average health an engineer can maintain to the thrust part would make it better
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Pyras do need a forward acceleration buff, that much is clear.
However, that being said, I personally am grateful for this current meta of not taking pyramidions because it opens a lot more options for tactics and loadouts as opposed to matches with 4 metamidions and silly dps wars. This is because those matches were boring for the most part. Now, because of the added options introduced by stamina and the fact that there is no longer a clearly dominant strategy (metamidion + hades/flak pyramidion) the game is a far more interesting and vibrant experience.
Pyramidion is not a bad ship per se in its current state, it just no longer holds the monopoly on tanking, ramming, firepower, and speed. It has been reduced from the clear best ship in the game to slightly less useful than the rest of the ships. It is a solid jack-of-all-trades, master of none, but it isn't massively underpowered as Ceresbane suggests. What the spire and squid buffs did, along with the pyramidion nerf, was make the game more balanced.
I stopped taking pyramidions after the nerf not because they sucked, but because I was so sick of flying pyras that anything else was an improvement. All Muse did was make the other ships viable. They did, of course, probably over-nerf the pyra, but restoring it to its former glory is definitely not the answer. Perhaps an acceleration buff and a top speed buff, but the permahull is perfectly fine in my opinion.
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I mostly agree with VomAct..
If the pyra does get a buff (this is not likely anytime soon btw) I should only be a minor single change.
Turn, health or accel..
But not more than one of those...
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I mostly agree with VomAct..
If the pyra does get a buff (this is not likely anytime soon btw) I should only be a minor single change.
Turn, health or accel..
But not more than one of those...
I'm in the same boat, as it were. I positively hated being on a pyra as that more often then not it'd be meta. All meta all the time makes gunner a dull girl.
Even so, I agree the nerf was very much too harsh. A small buff (be it acceleration or health or maneuverability) just to make it a little more viable would be a welcome change. As I've mentioned in posts before, either make it so that it can handle being slow and clumsy by having it tanky-er or make it nimble enough to make up for being built out of moonshine soaked cardboard and duct taped dreams.
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I would agree, adding a dedicated ramming damage bonus is a good idea.
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Ramming damage is calculated (simplified) by speed x mass x impact modifier for part hit (and some other fiddly bits). I would personally like to see hotpoints on the ships adding either an extra damage multiplier, OR a different damage type.
This would make the new formula for a Pyramidian ram S x M x ID x P (P being the hotpoint) -OR- (S x M x ID) + (S x M x P) where P can be any damage type.
I would personally prefer the second option, as it gives some interesting new possibilities. Piercing could be added to Pyramidian, more blunt impact to Galleon, and as a fun new feature, all engines could be given a bit of flechette.
Ships like Junkers and Mobulas would not get much, if anything.
I feel this could put the Pyramidian back in a better place, making it the low mass ship it should be. But it would still have it's ramming ability.