Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Santa Barbara on June 20, 2015, 07:44:52 am
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I think this game desperately needs one. The community is not so large and when the player count is low, find a match takes a lot of time. PvP is simply not enough, and sometimes is even frustrating because the matchmaking isn't perfect. The game has been around for a while now, it's so bad we still have just a couple of PvP modes :-(
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The planned PvE and adventure mode have no defined dates as Muse Games want to ensure that the content is a good as programmable possible upon release.
You can watch the developer streams for weekly updates on the upcoming content. :D
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It's coming! The best thing I could suggest if you want an update on the co op DLC is to read the updates on the main site (https://gunsoficarus.com/) which come out every week. You can also pre order co op here (https://gunsoficarus.com/store/) (what the hell happened to the CSS on that page?).
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... (what the hell happened to the CSS on that page?).
Strange, seems ok now.
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Put it this way, would you rather Muse take their time to make sure its done when they release? Or they half finish it, then charge us for it AGAIN when its done? I'm looking at you Ubisoft.
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To be blunt, I bought the game only recently full of expectations, enthralled by the gameplay, the theme and lore of the world.
Now, seeing the game was published in 2012, I am very disappointed to see how few contents it has: just a pvp arena mode with few maps and ships ultimately, and matchmaking problems (lots of time to start a match, and often teams are not even balanced... I don't think the fault for this is of the algorithm; simply, almost ever, there aren't much players to make the matches even).
I must say this is mitigated a little by the fair price I payed, since I bought the game on sale at least.
Adventure mode and PvE is what GoIo needs to give the game a decent dimension. Well, verily I think an open world will be the best, but I know this is just a dream because the devs are a little studio and must think small.
Anyway I'm happy they are working on something to expand this wonderful game, it deserves it.
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So you know the studio is small and you still want them to pull off wonders that big box devs pull off? If Muse had DICE level of resources and manpower, we'd have adventure mode by now.
As far as MM problems, just consider for 2 seconds what this game would be like with instant start on all lobbies/etc. You'd have probably the worst matches ever. No one would bring the right builds or gear. It would be perpetual novice mode which is utter shit. This game has a degree of setup to it so if you want instant gratification, you need to uninstall and go back to CoD with the rest of the 10yr olds. Sorry to be harsh but I just have no patience for people who come in expecting CoD and throw a fit because they are expected to actually use their brain.
In fact time and time again I find more newer players who appreciate when a vet actually takes time and preps them because a minute or two of prep turns a battle from being rage quit fest into actually fun. They begin to understand this. Quick start novice mode only lasts until the player realizes they are always getting the worst captains, the worst crews, and can only watch helplessly as a ship with experienced players stomps them so badly that it makes them feel like they are utter jokes. So at the end of the day, do you want a fun game or do you want to rage quit? If you want fun, learn to give things a little prep time.
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I'm skeptical of PvE and adventure mode. PvE sounds grindy/repetitive and adventure mode over ambitious. I think the game is best at PvP. More content can and should be created, but it's hard for me to imagine successful PvE.
I wish Muse luck and success, but I think they should be focusing on adding to PvP.
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Soon™
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Gilder be nice to clueless noobs please. I am politely asking not demanding. The didn't even say anything about lobby wait times.
re:op I am with blackened on this one. I love esports and competition and think the game most needs better support for refereeing and a replay system, and then more content for PvP like new maps or game-modes. It would be so awesome to implement that. Adventure/co-op is kinda cool but not nearly as awesome as pvp- mindless drones simply are not interesting as opponents compared to other players. If the game had builtin demo recording, casting would get much better and competitions would get much better.
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Lack of competitive support is holding the game back. It would be a big step forwards to turn skirmish mode into battle mode.
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huh. under £3 is more "radically generous, and sort of sad that Muse would have to go so cheap" than barely "fair" to me. I hope you buy some cosmetics.
but you are getting what you want so get excited about it. and maybe don't force Muse to go on sale to sell it to you this time.
@BlackenedPies:
I have reflected a little on competitive, having been quite involved in it myself. When you think about games with a really strong competitive scene, it is the gameplay that really sold itself - for instance Dota had a vibrant competitive scene when it was nothing more than a fan-made mod. If GOIO had the potential to be a massive competitive breakout, I'm sorry to say it would probably have happened by now. It just doesn't have the sort of gameplay that gives competitive play a broad appeal. You don't have scope for audacious plays, exciting action and epic reflexes. Competitive play is certainly of nice niche appeal and has probably done the game quite some good by sustaining a dedicated part of the playerbase. Maybe Muse could do themselves some good by keeping the competitive scene alive, but that's far more to do with sustaining a core of veteran players than releasing any serious potential. I do not think competitive could ever be the keystone of the game's future in the way that it is for say, Dota 2.
I think Muse's decision with Adventure mode to lead GOIO into the MMO end of the pool is undoubtedly the most appropriate one. If you think about it GOIO is often more a social experience than a competitive one. The slow-paced but interesting, cerebral combat is not so good for a competitive skirmish game but potentially lends itself to quite an interesting kind of MMO which is maybe more about somewhat infrequent fights which have more hinging on them. I just wish they had the engine to have a full open world because sailing your airship convoy straight out of port, across miles of canyons and smoothly into a player ambush would be so fucking immersive and atmospheric.
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GOIO's competitive lack individuality. Hence will never be on the same popular level of other competitive games.
What DOTA (and countless other, including CS) offers is the hero paradigm, how each player shapes its own gameplay in order to achieve victory as a protagonist: at the last tower, at the last bullet once person is responsible for victory or defeat, creating a hero, a legend. Following an event in DOTA is about knowing the names and personality of each player involved in a fashion similar to basketball or soccer.
GOIO instead is absolutely squad based and even the pilot is part of the greater ensemble that we call Clan or Competitive Team. Each clan has a distinct personality, recognized by its own peers and willingfully employed during a match. The individuals are reduced to elements of a greater design in a similar manner to water polo, rugby or american football. Clan leaders today absolve the function of coaches, directing each member of each crew into a pre-ordinate setup that will eventually win or lose the match. Grinding practice matches creates an homogeneous crew that largely fight on autopilot, requiring limited directional input once deployed.
What we see and love in a GOIO competitive match is a clash of game philosophies and strategies, not personalities and this will never cater to the majority of possible spectators. A Clan X ship will fight like a Clan X ship, mostly regardless of the crew. Yes, many personalities exist and can turn the table, especially regarding gunners and pilots, but in the long run they too will be subject to the overall clan personality, losing part of their flair, of their magic.
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GOIO's competitive lack individuality. Hence will never be on the same popular level of other competitive games.
What DOTA (and countless other, including CS) offers is the hero paradigm, how each player shapes its own gameplay in order to achieve victory as a protagonist: at the last tower, at the last bullet once person is responsible for victory or defeat, creating a hero, a legend. Following an event in DOTA is about knowing the names and personality of each player involved in a fashion similar to basketball or soccer.
GOIO instead is absolutely squad based and even the pilot is part of the greater ensemble that we call Clan or Competitive Team. Each clan has a distinct personality, recognized by its own peers and willingfully employed during a match. The individuals are reduced to elements of a greater design in a similar manner to water polo, rugby or american football. Clan leaders today absolve the function of coaches, directing each member of each crew into a pre-ordinate setup that will eventually win or lose the match. Grinding practice matches creates an homogeneous crew that largely fight on autopilot, requiring limited directional input once deployed.
What we see and love in a GOIO competitive match is a clash of game philosophies and strategies, not personalities and this will never cater to the majority of possible spectators. A Clan X ship will fight like a Clan X ship, mostly regardless of the crew. Yes, many personalities exist and can turn the table, especially regarding gunners and pilots, but in the long run they too will be subject to the overall clan personality, losing part of their flair, of their magic.
Dunno what people you fly with, but all of my crew mates are very personable =)
The again, if you simply watch the whole thing from outside, you won't know that.
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In all of Magkels post one sentence stands out the most...
"this will never cater to a majority of spectators"
As much as I love guns of Icarus and the competitive scene, it is hard to sell towards the mainstream market...
The YouTubers are not selling the game when they play as an example, they're selling the fun they're having, which is more often than not exaggerated as are their personalities..
The audience which GoIo competitive sells to is not a mainstream audience...
It is very easy to paint a single ship and crew as a hero, underdog or any other role that mainstream audiences thrive on, this is not the problem, the problem originates from how the game appears from an outside perspective...
No matter how the spectators sell the game, and no matter if they follow crew or ships, the game from an outsider view looks tactical more than action packed, because it is.
Watching Guns is more like watching Golf or Chess than it is like watching Hockey or Football (personally I hate football, but I'll not go into that! :) )
The action is not a constant through the match, you spend half the match watching pilots make tactical choices and movements, based on their assessments of what they predict the enemy will do, tactically playing cat and mouse until one.gets the upper hand, then there is a chip shot to the green and the ally makes the putt! Or the bishop takes the queen from behind after the knight makes a distraction, then its back to tactics choices and movements which does not appeal to the low attention span and intelligence levels of the mass audience, which guns does not appeal to..
Co-op has more consistent action over time, but the threats to the players are much lower and skill cap lower, so selling that to an audience will be tough too...
All we can do is sell to those who enjoy guns and encourage as much competitive play as we can...
As for my opinion regarding the original post... My opinion tallies with others who have posted, I shan't echo :)
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In terms of pace goio might be a smaller version of arma? I haven't played arma but I've seen a few videos. But it seems fairly popular..
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GOIO's competitive lack individuality. Hence will never be on the same popular level of other competitive games.
Dunno what people you fly with, but all of my crew mates are very personable =)
The again, if you simply watch the whole thing from outside, you won't know that.
I meant from a spectator point of view, someone who's not an expert of the game neither knows the vast background of GOIO's competitive scene
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Slow pacing doesn't preclude popularity but it may preclude the sort of competitive play that could increase popularity. I think GOIO and Arma have it in common that although they have competitive scenes, neither really has the potential for a major competitive scene that could be a big sales driver.
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Competetive games are fun to play but also fun to watch. This is important.
GOIO is just so-so fun to play, but for me it's not really fun to watch. It's quite boring due to its' pacing, and there's not really much to see. In most popular games you can see how individual players do their stuff and it's quite interesting. In GOIO? Seeing engineers banging things? Or pilot turning the helm? Gunner aiming with his gun.... perhaps? It's all not that interesting to watch.
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In all of Magkels post one sentence stands out the most...
"this will never cater to a majority of spectators"
As much as I love guns of Icarus and the competitive scene, it is hard to sell towards the mainstream market...
The YouTubers are not selling the game when they play as an example, they're selling the fun they're having, which is more often than not exaggerated as are their personalities..
The audience which GoIo competitive sells to is not a mainstream audience...
It is very easy to paint a single ship and crew as a hero, underdog or any other role that mainstream audiences thrive on, this is not the problem, the problem originates from how the game appears from an outside perspective...
No matter how the spectators sell the game, and no matter if they follow crew or ships, the game from an outsider view looks tactical more than action packed, because it is.
Watching Guns is more like watching Golf or Chess than it is like watching Hockey or Football (personally I hate football, but I'll not go into that! :) )
The action is not a constant through the match, you spend half the match watching pilots make tactical choices and movements, based on their assessments of what they predict the enemy will do, tactically playing cat and mouse until one.gets the upper hand, then there is a chip shot to the green and the ally makes the putt! Or the bishop takes the queen from behind after the knight makes a distraction, then its back to tactics choices and movements which does not appeal to the low attention span and intelligence levels of the mass audience, which guns does not appeal to..
Co-op has more consistent action over time, but the threats to the players are much lower and skill cap lower, so selling that to an audience will be tough too...
All we can do is sell to those who enjoy guns and encourage as much competitive play as we can...
As for my opinion regarding the original post... My opinion tallies with others who have posted, I shan't echo :)
I agree, the game is too layered to rise the heartbeat of a spectators unless the observer knows exactly what is going on, what is going to happen and why.
Maybe the "individuality" could shine if they give access, only for competitive, to 1 v 1, some kind of duel, maybe in KOTH maps to avoid dispersion, forcing the fight and setting an inevitable end of the game. yes, ship variety would suffer (more than the metamidion era? I doubt) but individuality would rise.
Removing the tactical possibility of 2v1 or cooperative builds, pitting the opposing crews there alone could possibly create the "legend" that other games manage to dispense so easily. The masterful repairs of the main, the timely buffs and such could be described in depth without forcing the streamers to jump from one angle of the map to the other. In a 2v2 things happen too fast for a single voice (Maybe someone remembers that when i spectate i almost always do the broadcast via text chat, well it is finger-breaking) once the spots are acquired, all the voice can do is to call the name of the ship and in a few words explain what's going on. Hardly something a novice spectator could appreciate. incidentally this is the same problem of many sports or competitive activities such as cricket, golf and poker.
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I really don't see it. There isn't a spin or modification that could give GOIO any major competitive potential.
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I really don't see it. There isn't a spin or modification that could give GOIO any major competitive potential.
Not enough to have a major following I agree...
But enough to keep long term players interested and playing...
I dread to think what the game would be like without the guys and girls who arrange our tournaments...
Endless pub stomps from vet players versus newbies and the occasional epic battle of titans when match maker puts them together..
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I really don't see it. There isn't a spin or modification that could give GOIO any major competitive potential.
Not enough to have a major following I agree...
But enough to keep long term players interested and playing...
I dread to think what the game would be like without the guys and girls who arrange our tournaments...
Endless pub stomps from vet players versus newbies and the occasional epic battle of titans when match maker puts them together..
That's why some people -like me- will like to drive the ship doing missions, freeroaming across beautiful landscapes and fight fair bots sometimes.
Too often deathmatches are a sad prison. After a long string of uneven battles my love for the game is quite low indeed and I don't see so much incentives to resume the fight against the odds (even the unlocking of cosmetic items needs lots of play suffering).
Deathmatch should be expanded to make the experience more engaging for the player, more lore-involved. Why don't have a mode where players swear allegiance to a faction and the result of every local battle is used to calculate the success of a bigger campaign?
If you are a player striving to be pro, a synoptic map with the movements of the ships and some statistic (hit success, damage distribution...) could be nice too!
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I heard somewhere that Adventure Mode would be this huge open world thing where you adventure with your crew doing missions and having fun, and destroying stuff. Now, i'm not so sure. I'm getting mixed messages. Clarification?
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There are two modes planned: Adventure mode is a future project and Co-op will be coming sooner. Co-op is vs AI while adventure mode includes missions and both PvP and PvE. Here is the Adventure mode page https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/musegames/guns-of-icarus-onlineadventure-mode/description
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Adventure mode is the long term idea that we see as the ultimate version and culmination of Guns of Icarus. Co-op mode is the step we raised enough money for in our last Kickstarter. Co-op is intended to be a game worth making in it's own right, but the work being done on co-op is also work towards adventure mode when co-op is completed.
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don't think even adventure mode will have freeroam open world airship piloting though, which is a shame.
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That actually largely comes down to 32 bit precision physics calculations, which, while not impossible to circumvent (see Space Engineers blog post (http://blog.marekrosa.org/2014/12/space-engineers-super-large-worlds_17.html)), is still pretty difficult to rework, especially in a game that's been in development for this many years.
(Interesting to note, the system implemented by space engineers works especially well for a space game because it is highly unlikely that single objects extend far past 32 bit distance limits. This is less true for a game like Icarus where namely the environment cannot be easily chunked into independent sections, which would cause physics issues at the borders of regions. In the more distant future, 64 bit physics may become more viable for newer games as hardware performance increases, but we are still a ways off from it, especially with the prevalence of 32 bit off the shell physics systems still being common and viable, and 64 bit precision being generally unnecessary.)