Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Legato Bluesummers on June 04, 2015, 11:58:49 am
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There are way to many problems with 4v4 in this game. I've been playing this game from the beginning and here are the two major problems with 4v4. First and foremost it takes too long to get all these people in one lobby. When we could be spending our time queuing for 2v2 or 3v3. Not only does a 4v4 games take forever to win because the players are undecisive but it does not have that much to offer in variety for game modes and maps.
When I play I make sure I don't do 4v4 because it takes forever and its not fun nor will it ever be.
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(Speaking as someone who used to play a lot of this game before interning at Muse): 4v4 is the most fun when you get a lot of people looking to play that mode specifically. It requires a lot of communication from captains who specifically are looking for something more akin to a fleet battle than a brawl. It is certainly a slower mode, where you see more broadside guns and back line Galleons. This is why the matchmaker lets you search for specific numbers of ships, because they are very different modes. While you might not enjoy one in particular, a 4v4 is a lot of fun with the right captains.
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Then it should only be in the custom games or have the default setting to be 3v3. Because this game mode is not made to just start up with a lot of random people who do not know how to play the game at this leave.
Also it would make it easier for beginners to get into games and learn.
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Then it should only be in the custom games or have the default setting to be 3v3. Because this game mode is not made to just start up with a lot of random people who do not know how to play the game at this leave.
Yeah, that's called an opinion.
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I mean when you hit the play button on default it will look for 3v3 or 2v2 games only. Then if you want to do 4v4 you would have to go into the options to look for those games.
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I mean when you hit the play button on default it will look for 3v3 or 2v2 games only. Then if you want to do 4v4 you would have to go into the options to look for those games.
You shouldn't worry about noobs unless they affect you.
It's their fault for not learning anything about a multiplayer game whatsoever before jumping in.
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I mean when you hit the play button on default it will look for 3v3 or 2v2 games only. Then if you want to do 4v4 you would have to go into the options to look for those games.
You can set your match preferences to exclude 4v4 you know.
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You can set your match preferences to exclude 4v4 you know.
I know... this is to help out the beginners because what is the point of having a few people who know how to play the game without a community.
When they first start playing the game they don't know any better then to just hit the play button then there in a 4v4 and they really don't know what there doing. Its not only a problem for them but its also a problem for the people who know how to play.
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So lock novices out of 4v4. Personally I like 4v4 matches. They are infinitely more interesting then 2v2. But I can understand your point. However unless they are piloting, I don't see as much of an issue.
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So lock novices out of 4v4. Personally I like 4v4 matches. They are infinitely more interesting then 2v2. But I can understand your point. However unless they are piloting, I don't see as much of an issue.
I heard that they got rid of novice a long time ago so that is why this is a problem now. But if they brought it back to where novice players could not do 4v4 on default that would be great.
Also if they did bring back novice they should make it to where you will be a novice until you are a lv. 8 pilot.
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I don't know if they got rid of novice. I didn't hear anything about that, but I don't keep track on novice level stuff.
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Novice still exists.
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There are novice matches. I like 4v4 deathmatch. It can be overwhelming but most tend to like it as long as it's not a stomp.
I don't think novice should be blocked from 4v4 because I regularly bring in novice crew. I've had many engaging novice co pilots who are fun to fly with.
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Novice still exists.
I gave on of my friends a copy and he said that there was no novice unchecked option and when i look for games there are a lot of novice players I'm playing with. So what? Are u telling me that all of them unchecked the novice option when this game went on sale? I don't think so.
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Many players including myself signed up to be able to join novice matches during the sale, and I still have the ability. There are always plenty of open novice matches.
A possibility is that because no one votes rematch in novice matches, it puts some crew forms into regular matches.
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Many players including myself signed up to be able to join novice matches during the sale, and I still have the ability. There are always plenty of open novice matches.
A possibility is that because no one votes rematch in novice matches, it puts some crew forms into regular matches.
That's wired if that's the case.
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Sorry to say that if we went by the logic of "players are indecisive" that means that we'd have to ban all the game modes, being that in any scenario be it 2v2 to 4v4 you will on occasion get an ally that wont talk or work with you. It is the side effect of a multi-player game, not much can change that. I am sorry you have had difficulty in 4v4, me personally I love the feel of an entire air battle once in a while. And yes, it can be very annoying when the rest of the team isn't willing to work together or people not even knowing what captains chat was (I think i made a meme about it). The other issue is that yes, it does take a long while for lobbies to fill up, I'm sure many us can regale you with epic tales of endurance in dark times waiting for just one more player...
If it is difficult for you, I would either suggest just avoiding the 4v4 or play with clan and friends to ensure a workable team. For one, that fills lobbies, and two, you get more cooperation. Because when you have a workable team on a 4v4, to me its a much more enjoyable game mode.
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Novice matches are still very much a thing. However the system changed somewhat because a lot of new players would uncheck Novice because they thought they knew better, or they felt offended that their mlg 360no scope skills were defined as novice. So the Novice system was changed to be more fluid, you start as a Novice player, all default matches searched for are novice matches. However novice is only till level 7, once you reach level 8 on a single class (which does not take long for people who hit achievements) you'll no longer be considered a novice, and you can easily turn off novice in a variety of ways, such as editing the ship loadout, or "unlocking" one of the locked ships... (Galleon for example.) when unlocking these, you're given a pop up to ask if you're sure you want to unlock from novice status, most people will click accept without second thought about it, especially if they've been told a suggested ship loadout by a friend.
My opinion on 4v4...
Yes it can be tough and long going, but more often than not I find a player who quits mid 4v4 will be smart enough to search for games of their own preferences, and as Blackenedpies said, I too have had great fun in 4v4 matches and lobbies, I've also seen commendable attempts to fill 4v4 lobbies by players! Sending messages in global, asking other lobby members to join invite their friends etc and not impatiently but a level 3 guy saying "Come on everyone, invite your friends! Its not fair he has AI on his ship!"
Then getting into the match, 4v4 death matches always prove themselves more than just a brawl, any who impatiently storm in without allies find themselves in difficult situations.
Encourage communication with the captains, coerce them to charge at the same time, send the faster ships through the sides and the tankier ships in position with less cover to draw fire for some nice flanking. Or play defensive, a line of ships not separating is a very tough opponent to take on and requires strong communication to have a shot at getting past.
Yes you make a point that it can be daunting for new players to end up in larger lobbies, but equally newer players going to a large battle with a lot of other players helps silence the un-just statements that the game is "dead" simply because there are not 10,000 players online at one time. 8)
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4v4's are awesome, but we need better maps than Sepulcher and Duuuuuhrns :P
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4v4's are awesome, but we need better maps than Sepulcher and Duuuuuhrns :P
agreed
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I feel like Raid on the Refinery would be big enough for a 4v4 Deathmatch. I mean, its about the same size as Dunes right?
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Raid lags when used for deathmatch. Raid is used in the map pool for the Sac VIP matches (custom rules mode), but I've always had considerable lag on it. It's much smaller than dunes, firnfeld is closer to 4v4 size.
If firnfeld was 4v4 it would be interesting if the initial spawns were split so 2 ships on each team spawn north and the others spawn far south. Of course then it may be strategic to order ships in lobby to dictate spawn location.
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Firnfeld is plenty big enough although it would be more of the same just snow texture. - pre edit - (splitting the spawns could be interesting)
Firnfeld king of the hill (capture the big gun) could be fun, maybe with original spawns rather than koth style ones - end pre edit -
Canyons could be fun, maybe with some strategicly placed sandstorms to discourage an own spawn sniper camping meta from forming (im not sure if 4v4 would make that more or less likely)
In general i find 4v4 to be hit and miss.
-It allows teams that would get stomped in smaller games to actually fight and fly sometimes (even if they cant win) rather than dieing instantly
-It allows more specialised ships and strategies
-It gives more value to my master flare gunner skills
But
-The teams can become even more uneven than is possible in 2v2 or 3v3
-The effect of fighting in spawn zones is even more unbalanced (getting a numbers advantage because you can respawn and fight faster, until it tips over to the other extreme of 4v1 spawn kills)
-It biases towards long range ships that then take all of eternity to cross the large distances
-King of the flayed hills is just too big - ban non squid ships from it please ; )
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Still praying for a 4v4 Paritan.
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Still praying for a 4v4 Paritan.
Muse does still have that original enormous Paratin map. Maybe one day...
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Noob 4 v 4 do take forever. seen up to as long as an hour without the presence of an actual vet to guide anyone.
Vet 4 v 4... first ship to make a mistake and its 12-0 in less than 5 minutes
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Well some time ago I was suggesting some hard game-time limit, as in Hephaestus Challenge (30 min). Make it 40-45 minutes and whoever had bigger score then - won.
Nobody wants an hour-long match. That's why we hated CK.
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Nobody wants an hour-long match. That's why we hated CK.
I liked it.
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I mean when you hit the play button on default it will look for 3v3 or 2v2 games only. Then if you want to do 4v4 you would have to go into the options to look for those games.
You can set your match preferences to exclude 4v4 you know.
I know you can search for 2v2, 3v4, or 4v4. Is there a way to simply exclude? I prefer 2v2s, don't mind 3v3s, but 4v4s are only fine in small doses and play drastically different than the others.
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There should be, just go in and uncheck it.
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Well some time ago I was suggesting some hard game-time limit, as in Hephaestus Challenge (30 min). Make it 40-45 minutes and whoever had bigger score then - won.
Nobody wants an hour-long match. That's why we hated CK.
Are you speaking ill of my baby? old crazy king was some awesome stuff!
it was the best, most tactic heavy game mode ever.
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There should be, just go in and uncheck it.
For number of ships its a selection, not a check
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Semantics. I usually play with clan, or solo into a pub, so I keep the thing open.
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well 4 v 4 is to my advantage as I get my 1km kills on 4 v 4.
alas scrub 4 v 4 lobbies never snipe... even if I tell them why its a good idea.
(I don't feel bad in the slightest for sniping noobs to pieces in sniper maps as a result)
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Semantics. I usually play with clan, or solo into a pub, so I keep the thing open.
No it is not semantics as its a very real effect. There is a massive gulf of difference between 4v4s and the 2v2s/3v3s. I want matchmaker to be able to allow 2s and 3s but exclude 4s. Right now the options are either all or just one.
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Semantics. I usually play with clan, or solo into a pub, so I keep the thing open.
No it is not semantics as its a very real effect. There is a massive gulf of difference between 4v4s and the 2v2s/3v3s. I want matchmaker to be able to allow 2s and 3s but exclude 4s. Right now the options are either all or just one.
No, I meant the selection vs check part. And I thought there were, my bad.
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4 v 4 are possibly the best games you can play on GOIO and they are a great way for novice players to understand some mechanics that in a 2v2 would be completely lost.
In 2 v 2 the "stomping" is very common and situations of 2 v 1 are the norm: Unless you know what you are doing, and the other captain as well, the game will spiral into a meatgrinder where the team that loses the first ship is going to feed the opposing team meat for the grinder until the game is over.
in 3 v 3 things are slightly more balanced because the loss of a teammate doesn't place you alone against two enemies, with the only option to run back to your spawn. it is also the game mode where support ships such as the Goldfish, Squid and Galleon should appear (they do in 2v2 of course, i do it myself a lot, but they are conceptually wrong) to add a layer of complexity to the usual brawl.
In 4 v 4 the lobby time, team chat and C chat shine because you can set up the soon to be engagement from a strategic perspective. For a novice it is the first time they can see the purpose of builds and weapons rarely used in the previous game modes. Even previously un-cooperative players felt the trill of the battle in the thick of a 4v4 brawl at the center of Dunes or while supporting the front line from the deck of a mobula, disabling an enemy someone else is going to kill. In 4v4 you feel part of a team and exploit all the content of GOIO while in smaller matches the weight of success is all about individual fights ship-to-ship
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So lock novices out of 4v4. Personally I like 4v4 matches. They are infinitely more interesting then 2v2. But I can understand your point. However unless they are piloting, I don't see as much of an issue.
This is not a good idea. A first rule of que-based gameplay is to make it as accessible as possible - locking new players out of a game mode would add waiting time to the que for no acceptable reason.
I think we're all just gonna have to live with that public games can go as bad as they can go good, regardless of the game type. I can definetly understand if you don't have enough buddies to organize a 4v4 - lord know that I don't. And I agree that something should be done about it. But denying people of any experience level a part of content is not the right way.
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It was just an idea. Not one that I actually think would be good. Maybe lock novices from piloting in a normal match would be better.
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It was just an idea. Not one that I actually think would be good. Maybe lock novices from piloting in a normal match would be better.
Now this I agree with - I've had similar ideas myself. Captains calls the shots, it is that simple. It's a post of experience.
Then again, we may be severly undermanned on captains.
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I definitely suggested to muse that novice pilots shouldnt be allowed to play cp...
and definitely not crazy king.
Its just constantly embarrassing when they play and fly their precious noob galleon... and even if they did have a ship that can move... they dont know to how actually use that kindergarten education to seek out points. I mean they can barely play death match...
however... pilots at about lvl 10+ has much more competence and showing the beginnings of tactical thinking. A lvl 10 pilot understands why they lost a cp. A novice pilot does not.
Lets face it. If I'm using novice pilots to grind point captures (and cp wins) because i know I'm basically gonna get the points unopposed.... there's definitely a flaw in the system.
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I definitely suggested to muse that novice pilots shouldnt be allowed to play cp...
and definitely not crazy king.
Its just constantly embarrassing when they play and fly their precious noob galleon... and even if they did have a ship that can move... they dont know to how actually use that kindergarten education to seek out points. I mean they can barely play death match...
however... pilots at about lvl 10+ has much more competence and showing the beginnings of tactical thinking. A lvl 10 pilot understands why they lost a cp. A novice pilot does not.
Lets face it. If I'm using novice pilots to grind point captures (and cp wins) because i know I'm basically gonna get the points unopposed.... there's definitely a flaw in the system.
I don't think banning them is the answer, perhaps a "Small King" (2v2 crazy king) for novices may be good so that they can practice in smaller number.
Apart from this, its nice to see new players (albeit Newbies) playing in big games. I normally try to help them by telling them to read the objectives under the map. that way, they have a slight understanding.
On the other hand, I was on a newbies ship on King of the Flayed Hills the other day with a friend. We both tried to advise the captain but they constantly ignored us and treated the game as a Death Match. This lack of understanding may be the cause of confusion.
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Weren't people in novice matches limited to only Battle on the Dunes and Fight over Firnfeld, DM style?
I think novices should be able to play King of the Hill/Capture Point as it introduces a mechanic which so many inexperienced players don't seem to know anything of. Once they havethat down, they can actually be somewhat helpful in crazy king, even on the scale of 4v4.
A definite problem of 4v4 is the lack of variety. Red Spulcher is basically Battle on the Dunes and only rarely does anybody try to sneak up on somebody on either of those two maps. I like the idea of Firnfeld 4v4 where the spawns are split in two on the north and 2 on the south, or something, so the battles at least don't start in the middle. People might not find each other though.
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Novice matches allow 2v2 on dunes and fjords DM, and 3v3 DM Dunes, Fjords and Water Hazard.
No CP no CK.
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Novice matches allow 2v2 on dunes and fjords DM, and 3v3 DM Dunes, Fjords and Water Hazard.
No CP no CK.
This, may therefore be the problem
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Maybe if one of the easier maps was unlocked to novices it would help, however most of the Crazy King and King of the hill maps are considered "advanced" either due to the amount of obstacles, difficult routes or damages done to ships during play.
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We need something in between novice games and advanced matches. Some place where people could experiment with their first loadouts and learn how to ptfo on CP/CK. Like a 2nd novice zone for people below lvl15ish
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Or an "easy" crazy king / king of the hill...
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If novices don't get a cp or ck map to play, they won't be able to learn it until they graduate.
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Or an "easy" crazy king / king of the hill...
My idea is being loved? ;D
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Or an "easy" crazy king / king of the hill...
My idea is being loved? ;D
Oh yes, just wracking my brains for the easiest and most viable way for such a thing to be implemented :)
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I definitely suggested to muse that novice pilots shouldnt be allowed to play cp...
and definitely not crazy king.
Its just constantly embarrassing when they play and fly their precious noob galleon... and even if they did have a ship that can move... they dont know to how actually use that kindergarten education to seek out points. I mean they can barely play death match...
however... pilots at about lvl 10+ has much more competence and showing the beginnings of tactical thinking. A lvl 10 pilot understands why they lost a cp. A novice pilot does not.
Lets face it. If I'm using novice pilots to grind point captures (and cp wins) because i know I'm basically gonna get the points unopposed.... there's definitely a flaw in the system.
I don't think banning them is the answer, perhaps a "Small King" (2v2 crazy king) for novices may be good so that they can practice in smaller number.
Apart from this, its nice to see new players (albeit Newbies) playing in big games. I normally try to help them by telling them to read the objectives under the map. that way, they have a slight understanding.
On the other hand, I was on a newbies ship on King of the Flayed Hills the other day with a friend. We both tried to advise the captain but they constantly ignored us and treated the game as a Death Match. This lack of understanding may be the cause of confusion.
There is a small king. Its called king of the hill.
They can't even play that. How do you think I grinded 18 cp wins in a day? 8 of which were underdog.
In a novices mind, all they know is death match. Its only until they master that part do they bother branching out into other modes.
Its very consistent. Out of the 30 matches on lab. It was the lvl 10s and 15s that gave me trouble by ACTUALLY going to the point instead of attacking me while I drew them away. They learned by match end and when I faced them again I had to actually be serious since they knew the rules. (do note this is only about 8ish out of 60 pilots- rest were the noobs or vs a vet)
No novice player ever thought to follow the big shiny light. When I saw repeat novices, they fell for the same tricks over and over.
It was pathetic.
Weren't people in novice matches limited to only Battle on the Dunes and Fight over Firnfeld, DM style?
I think novices should be able to play King of the Hill/Capture Point as it introduces a mechanic which so many inexperienced players don't seem to know anything of. Once they havethat down, they can actually be somewhat helpful in crazy king, even on the scale of 4v4.
That was the intention of lab.
clearly hasnt worked if you think many inexperienced players dont seem to know anything. But yes I agree on keeping lab as a teaching tool for novices (hence keep king of the hill).
Just don't let them go crazy king until they have half a brain full of experience. Moving from point to point in alphabetical is too hard to fathom for them.
I'm appalled to say that people are that dumb, but its so true.