Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Daft Loon on May 01, 2015, 08:58:19 pm
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After 5 matches playing on the underdog team and several more where i questioned the lack of an underdog tag on one of the teams im rather skeptical of its accuracy.
-From 5 as underdog 2 comprehensive wins 1 win and 2 losses
A suggestion:
Include in the lobby an option for players (all or just those who sign up maybe) to 'vote' and predict which team is going to win. I suspect that the players predictions will be much better than 50%.
- Collect data from this and use it to improve Underdog and Match making ranking
-Possibly make it visible, it could be fun to strive to be the most accurate at predicting matches, it could even become the spectator achievements that no-one but me wants.
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pretty sure its based off total MMR.
And if the gap is big enough. it becomes underdog.
want better underdog? improve how MMR calculates.
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better MMR calculator sounds like a good idea
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MMR is basically win/lose ratio for every player. It can't be accurate.
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MMR is basically win/lose ratio for every player. It can't be accurate.
Its not. But it is what I assume underdog is based off of.
Until thats fixed, underdog won't work either.
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It does not work well. We tested it out yesterday by jumping down to spectate to see who would put the other team into underdog. Four different people everybody considered equally skilled moved to spectate one by one. Only one put the other team into underdog. Even moving two of the others to spectate did not take the other team out of underdog.
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yeah, yesterday we had a 3v3 with the Piloting levels looking like this on the teams:
Level 8 Pilot VS. Level 32 Pilot
Level 10 Pilot VS. Level 32 Pilot
Level 6 Pilot VS. Level 28 Pilot
..and the lower levels were not made into underdogs. None of them had even played over a 100 matches as Pilot.
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Because levels/matches played (=experience) is not taken into account by matchmaker.
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Levels are generally 70-75% accurate as to how good someone is, and matches played are generally 80-85% accurate to how good someone is, and generally W/L ratio is 90-95% accurate to how good someone is (if you get them to tell it to you). This has been my experience, it would be nice if the first two things got calculated.
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Levels are generally 70-75% accurate as to how good someone is, and matches played are generally 80-85% accurate to how good someone is, and generally W/L ratio is 90-95% accurate to how good someone is (if you get them to tell it to you). This has been my experience, it would be nice if the first two things got calculated.
lvls... not such a certainty anymore. The old 1-15 was far more accurate because of time spent trying to get to their lvl.
MMR should be tallied by part destroys/ship kills (gunner), repairs/rebuilds (as engie) and ship destroys (crew). Buffs, time spent spamming pilot tools, lvls, match count, etc. are all arbitrary measurements for player skill.
This takes into account your competence in all things. Even if your loss ratio is 50%. It might not be because of your own incompetence.
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Levels are generally 70-75% accurate as to how good someone is, and matches played are generally 80-85% accurate to how good someone is, and generally W/L ratio is 90-95% accurate to how good someone is (if you get them to tell it to you). This has been my experience, it would be nice if the first two things got calculated.
lvls... not such a certainty anymore. The old 1-15 was far more accurate because of time spent trying to get to their lvl.
MMR should be tallied by part destroys/ship kills (gunner), repairs/rebuilds (as engie) and ship destroys (crew). Buffs, time spent spamming pilot tools, lvls, match count, etc. are all arbitrary measurements for player skill.
This takes into account your competence in all things. Even if your loss ratio is 50%. It might not be because of your own incompetence.
That's why none of the numbers are listed 100% accurate. The best player in the game can always have a laggy day and lose, there are many variables at work that also decide if you win or lose.
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(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/37496212302948560/CDE7F0AEEF3FF955785DAD42EA92FF32AA1796D3/)
I was apparently the underdog this match (at the start-some ppl joined mathew's ship mid game, not that it made a difference).
the rage quitting ship were novice lvl. but we had our own novice ship too.
Did noid have a terrible MMR or something? I did notice his piloting was sub par for a 43.
But yes... 2 elite lvl pilots vs mid lvl pilots. and pretty much same lvl average for crew.
well technically I should have tipped the scales for technically being all 45.
and the ones with elite lvl pilots were the underdogs.
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Levels don't effect underdog. It is based purely on MMR.
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(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/37496212303528036/3D6EABEE5AC03DBD12838B248C3BEF1B0E000ABB/)
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/37496212303529889/E6F8F58F39216590018FA1BC3BE9672E3C7002CB/)
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/37496212303530380/80F8BA5F81E3055A1ADC2A21342BA6181AF95CEF/)
(http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/37496212303530719/D4AF00A547CA85A1763EE08FEEE92CDA820AA2F7/)
Just... wtf is MMR measuring? definitely not match counts or lvls.
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Rydr Tag increases MMR by 100% Proven :P
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but we crushed him though...
it didn't count as underdog win for some reason (someone prolly joined mid game or ragequit iunno i forget).
UNDERDOG IS SO CONFUSING!
Also if that were true then rydrs will never get underdog achieves
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well, apparently I needed a (jk) to my last post, I recently achieved all the underdog plays achevs, still need to do wins (they are incredibly hard for me, dont see many other rydrs getting these :P). They all seem fine to me except the last one which counted games as underdog really weirdly, other than that I saw that ai have an mmr rating of 0 so whether or not they are on your team matters a lot, also worth noting is that what matters is that it counts team mmr as a whole, pilot or crew is irrelevant.
It is a percent mmr change (I think 20) that depends on the underdog status so in a very high lvl lobby its likely to be the same, a lot of it does depend on which side has more ai though
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The matches where I've been rated underdog have been surprising to me. It seems to seriously under estimate the impact a experienced pilot organising a team can have, and the deleterious impact a novice pilot can have. Without seeing the model used I'm still not in a position to comment in detail, but it seems to be doing a very bad job predicting the matches I'm involved in.
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I wonder if pilots are weighed more heavily than crew in MMR. They really should be.
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If it is partially based off AI (which seems to give the otherside without underdog). That means getting wins is gonna be impossible.
Because if that AI slot is filled at match end, you are likely to lose underdog status and underdog achieves seems to only count if you have it at match end (most likely to avoid an exploit-one of the major times I see muse do something impressively competent and it pisses me off as much as their bad choices).
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One thing I've noticed about the underdog system is it makes people very quickly leave lobbies if they're on the team labeled "underdog". Nobody wants to be told "you'll probably lose this match" before it even starts. Not really a fan of that.
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One thing I've noticed about the underdog system is it makes people very quickly leave lobbies if they're on the team labeled "underdog". Nobody wants to be told "you'll probably lose this match" before it even starts. Not really a fan of that.
Oh the irony...
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(http://i.imgur.com/33r3wRy.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZguFHdh.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/cjty9px.jpg)
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Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?
I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.
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(http://i.imgur.com/33r3wRy.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZguFHdh.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/cjty9px.jpg)
Trueee, but It's still less intimidating for them if they can't see the massively steep level difference, and they won't be scared to lose because they know they're underdogs and it's a win/not-win-but-doesn't-matter situation.
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Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?
I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.
Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage. The stamina feature will be even more perfected later on.
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Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?
I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.
Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage.
I preferred it when you used skill to win, and not a completely unasked for mechanic.
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Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?
I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.
Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage.
I preferred it when you used skill to win, and not a completely unasked for mechanic.
We needed stamina to get people to want gunners instead of gungineers. This mechanic makes sense in a relatively realistic way, you'll just have to adapt and become "skilled" with stamina.
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Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?
I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.
Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage.
I preferred it when you used skill to win, and not a completely unasked for mechanic.
We needed stamina to get people to want gunners instead of gungineers. This mechanic makes sense in a relatively realistic way, you'll just have to adapt and become "skilled" with stamina.
Or instead of adding a random system to make gunners somewhat useful, we could make Guns be more Gunner-dependent.
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Nerf all guns more, make all ammos more niche and stronger in certain areas. Increase the need for the three ammos, and release the experimental ammos. Also, vets have always advocated gunners. This decision was made around the fact that new players were upset and complained to Muse that they couldn't three gunner crew by their pilots.
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I will always say, get the gunner a second engineer equipment slot and you are guaranteed to see at least one per ship.
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Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?
I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.
Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage.
I preferred it when you used skill to win, and not a completely unasked for mechanic.
We needed stamina to get people to want gunners instead of gungineers. This mechanic makes sense in a relatively realistic way, you'll just have to adapt and become "skilled" with stamina.
Or instead of adding a random system to make gunners somewhat useful, we could make Guns be more Gunner-dependent.
One of my baby AIs suuggested to give the gunners the new reload mechanics.
While everyone else reloads the old way.
BAM. such a simple change and suddenly gunners are a must. Also can we start telling muse to make stamina go away.
Just to make it perfectly clear to them.
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Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?
I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.
Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage.
I preferred it when you used skill to win, and not a completely unasked for mechanic.
We needed stamina to get people to want gunners instead of gungineers. This mechanic makes sense in a relatively realistic way, you'll just have to adapt and become "skilled" with stamina.
Or instead of adding a random system to make gunners somewhat useful, we could make Guns be more Gunner-dependent.
One of my baby AIs suuggested to give the gunners the new reload mechanics.
While everyone else reloads the old way.
BAM. such a simple change and suddenly gunners are a must. Also can we start telling muse to make stamina go away.
Just to make it perfectly clear to them.
But that's using logic.
We can't do that here with Muse.
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Wait they added a systems which tells you if you'll win/lose?
I already gave up on this game when Stamina came out, but I guess they just want to put more nails in the coffin.
Why give up now when the game is at its prime? Stamina made the Gunner class more important than it's ever been before. Engineering stamina is fun to use, and Pilot stamina saves the engineers the hassle of repairing kerosene/moonshine/phoenix claw engine damage.
I preferred it when you used skill to win, and not a completely unasked for mechanic.
We needed stamina to get people to want gunners instead of gungineers. This mechanic makes sense in a relatively realistic way, you'll just have to adapt and become "skilled" with stamina.
Or instead of adding a random system to make gunners somewhat useful, we could make Guns be more Gunner-dependent.
One of my baby AIs suuggested to give the gunners the new reload mechanics.
While everyone else reloads the old way.
BAM. such a simple change and suddenly gunners are a must. Also can we start telling muse to make stamina go away.
Just to make it perfectly clear to them.
But that's using logic.
We can't do that here with Muse.
just do it theres this claim they go through with this stuff because not enough of us spam them to NOT.
If the majority of emails is "get rid of stamina" and they still keep it. Then you can complain.
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Can we keep this thread to complaining about/suggesting and discussing solutions for the underdog system. There are other threads where you can whinge about stamina allready.
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The biggest issue with underdog is it is outlining a problem but not offering a solution.
"Your match is unbalanced. We figure you will lose."
"Ok... so how can we fix that? Do we get a buff?"
"....."
"Well then, not staying in this lobby. Bye."
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There is also the problem of the difference between "this match will be challenging for red team" which is on the edge of underdog/not underdog where the current system struggles with accuracy and "Red team is almost certainly going to lose" where the system identifies it more accurately but does nothing.
The existence of underdog win achievements indicates that they want the first case to exist as much as the second.
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Nobody is making sense in this thread. The Underdog system works fine by letting the weaker team get away scot-free if they lose. If you were expecting an actual ship buff for being an Underdog then you must be insane. Not everyone that is new is a bad player off the bat, some of them do the tutorial. Imagine giving a low MMR clan (Low MMR only because of lag, joke ship builds, helping noob friends) a ship buff against slightly higher MMR opponents who aren't as good or are equally as good but have a higher MMR only because they stomp noobs all day and nothing else. That would allow the low MMR clan to murder hardcore because they now have an unfair advantage; and even if they manage to suffer a loss it wouldn't count.
Stamina is already a super fun, super balanced, super useful feature.
You kids today don't understand that the gunner's best strength is consistency. His job is to constantly apply pressure to the enemy... Not repair... Just soley dish out damage to cripple and kill the enemy to prevent him from killing you, and the gunner stamina helps with that ALOT. Turning the turret further allows you to keep up with enemy ships out of reach and keep applying pressure even when your captain isn't facing the enemy.
Reloading faster allows you to give the enemy little time to breathe by shortening your reload time. If you add up all the extra damage done over time you'll see that gunners do about the same amount of added damage as a buff engineer with this stamina system. Don't forget gunners also get 3 ammo choices... people don't understand how OP that is... You can use lesmok for long range to start doing damage from distance (getting the first hit matters alot), then you can swap to a shorter range/higher DPS ammo when they're close.
People forget to add up all the potential damaging & crippling they could've been doing if they had lesmok along with their greased rounds.
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MMR is NOT calculated from the player Levels
MMR is NOT calculated from the number of matchs
MMR is NOT calculated from the win ratio
MMR is calculated a modified of Glicko2 system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicko_rating_system
This was explained numerous times, in many threads and Dev Fire chats.
MMR is re-calculated after every match depending on the result. Changes are dependant on Ratings deviations and the ratings of both teams. Read on Wikipedia for the details.
Like The Sky wolf explained: the Underdog rewards the underdogs IF they win. Not by giving them bonuses.
However I do find the reliability of the Underdog calculation questionable from the games I've played since system went live.
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Hmm.... reading through how Glicko works, I see a giant flaw in the underdog system. Ships (and their builds) are not counted as players, and are thus not rated. That is giving incomplete data. To give a true underdog rating, each ship and approximate build would have to be treated as a 5th player on each crew.
Also, Mattilald, my point about bonuses was just what I have been asked by new players. They literally asked if they got some sort of handicap buff. When told no, and explained what it did.... they left. People learn fast what the underdog means, and leave lobbies just as fast.
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The biggest issue with underdog is it is outlining a problem but not offering a solution.
"Your match is unbalanced. We figure you will lose."
"Ok... so how can we fix that? Do we get a buff?"
"....."
"Well then, not staying in this lobby. Bye."
Apparently underdogs that lose don't have that loss count towards their stats.
How that translates though is confusing to me. As your stats only count wins. Hence if you lose. Its not a win that adds to the tally.
Knowing your lose rate is simply total matches-matches won=losses.
So... what does underdog actually do to lower the loss quota? Does it not count an underdog loss as a match to add to the match count?
should ships and their builds count though? Unless the system looks into the popularity of some builds and the success of each and every variation. It all falls into subjectivity. And the feat for a system to quickly check THE FULL HISTORY OF A SPECIFIC BUILD OUT OF A BAZZILION VARIATIONS.
Seems like some serious busy work. Hence I kinda understand why its not counted. Besides vets know to use meta or mock builds as they see fit.
The build for the most part doesnt matter is the crew and competence of the pilots ability to be strategic.
I mean I've won with a double flare quick before. And flares arent exactly meta.
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When I first heard of underdog from the blog post http://gunsoficarus.com/blog/chewing-on-some-stats/#more-7147 (http://gunsoficarus.com/blog/chewing-on-some-stats/#more-7147)
I thought it was a great idea if it was a hidden system. Tell them they're underdog and give them the badge after the match not before.
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Max, stop being wrong all the time.
Not sure why you quoted me, then wrote nothing that actually addressed the quote.
I said it was missing data throwing the rating. I did not even say it should If you knew anything about Glicko, which my non-quoted post addressed, you would know how it treats unrated players and quickly incorporates them with the rating after just a few matches. No previous tracking needed. It just starts looking at a certain ship/build as if it were a player, and starts calculating. Popular builds that do well get ranked high very fast. Others can be forgotten if they are used little and unsuccessfully (basically treated as unranked every time).
By the way, Mobula and Junker have 248,832 possible builds. Pyra has 20,736. Squid has 1,728. Goldfish has 720. Spire has 8640. Galleon has 90,000 (I think).
That is a total of 619,488 build possibilities. That is not a very large chunk of data to today's servers. Very possible to track every single one as if it were a player.
Finally, I very much doubt if you took flares against an equally skilled team and won. And of course the crew matters. That is what the other FOUR MMRs are for. Take a silly, low MMR ship, with a good crew, and it will still give the other team 'underdog' if they are low enough MMR.
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As man weapon not, but you are taking a flaregun on one of the utility slots, because knowing where enemies are is crucial no matter what range you choose.
They haven't divulged the exact specifics (to my knowledge) what they are using in calculating team MMR (as opposed to player MMR).
As of visiblitiy of the Underdog status before the game start, I share my concern on the effect on the underdog team (especially, after hiding levels, so lover levels didn't feel intimidated).
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the apparent "solution" was the loss as underdog doesn't count towards your stats. You didn't notice that concept being in the same wave length as your rant about no solution given by the system that is underdog?
kinda weak solution but whatever. I'm just after the prizes.
also the heck are those crown thing on the first 2 underdog win achieves? Thought they were badges but apparently not.
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What? You made even less sense. The problem is people leaving. Barely anyone cares about win/loss ratio. They care about having a fun match and not getting stomped in horrible ways. No one cares about your chieves.
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What? You made even less sense. The problem is people leaving. Barely anyone cares about win/loss ratio. They care about having a fun match and not getting stomped in horrible ways. No one cares about your chieves.
precisely but muse thinks it does. Hence the effect of underdog.
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What? You made even less sense. The problem is people leaving. Barely anyone cares about win/loss ratio. They care about having a fun match and not getting stomped in horrible ways. No one cares about your chieves.
precisely but muse thinks it does. Hence the effect of underdog.
(http://gifs.gifbin.com/082011/reverse-1312893219_what.gif)
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What? You made even less sense. The problem is people leaving. Barely anyone cares about win/loss ratio. They care about having a fun match and not getting stomped in horrible ways. No one cares about your chieves.
precisely but muse thinks it does. Hence the effect of underdog.
(http://gifs.gifbin.com/082011/reverse-1312893219_what.gif)
Are you completely clueless on how underdog actually works even though it says exactly what it does by highlighting underdog when it appears in a lobby?
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No, he is saying, once again, that you are making no sense. The problem of seeing underdog is a lot of players leave the lobby because it is outright telling them the match is stacked. It does nothing to stop that. Few people will stay just because it does not count if they lose. Anyways, whatever. I am sure it will change.
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In addition to ship builds you could do crew combinations as well:
Assign bands of matchmaking ranking ex- high,mid,low
For each ship [Captain]+[Crew,Crew,Crew]
example ships - [High Pilot]+[Mid Gunner,Mid Engineer, Low Engineer] or [Low Gunner]+[Low Gunner,Low Gunner,Low Gunner]
Having data from these extra matchmaking rankings could also help them with balancing too.
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If the lobby would tell which team was the underdog, then make suggestions on who could switch teams to balance, THAT would be offering a solution. Even offer achievements for accepting the suggestion, for the chieve hunters.
'Damn fine sort' - accept x Underdog swap requests for players ranked lower than yourself.
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'Fratricide' - win x matches after swapping out of a team with x or more friends/clan members
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The perfect way to measure if someone should become "underdogged" is to:
#1. Compare Matches Played of entire team VS. enemy team (Specifically Captain and Engineers.. Also have chances lower with 2+ gunners/captains/AI)
#2. Compare Win/Loss ratio of the captains
#3. Compare ship/gun use difficulty with the enemy's ships and guns.
It would be a very simple system with 99% accuracy when predicting who will lose or win.
---edit---
I have a better idea ill probably make a separate thread about.
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'Fratricide' - win x matches after swapping out of a team with x or more friends/clan members
Haha. That would could be called 'Vile Betrayer' as well.
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No, he is saying, once again, that you are making no sense. The problem of seeing underdog is a lot of players leave the lobby because it is outright telling them the match is stacked. It does nothing to stop that. Few people will stay just because it does not count if they lose. Anyways, whatever. I am sure it will change.
THATS MY POINT.
MUSE THINKS THE LOSS NOT COUNTING BUT WITH A CHANCE FOR AN ACHIEVEMENT IS ENOUGH!
do I have to repeat it 3 more times before you get it?
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I actually never witnessed a lot of players or even a few that leave after they are displayed as underdog. It might just be me, but it looks like people are either clueless about the "underdog" title above them or they simply don't care and wanna play a match.
I think that this system is actually pretty fun and gives a sense of accomplishment if you win in a "stacked" lobby MMR-wise.
Again, it could be just me, but I think that this whole underdog thing is actually really fun, interesting and in place.
As for how it calculates who is an underdog I am less happy with, I think it can probably be done in a more intelligent manner - but making things like this is extremely tough coding-wise and require tons of time and effort. Muse is doing whatever they can but I think if they get stuck on calculating MMR better it would draw them away from other, more important projects so I am happy with it all.
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MMR is calculated as well as possible. Underdog itself is a suspect.
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Make it hidden until after the match for the underdog team. Visually reward with extra xp and achievements. Lower xp gained for all because leveling is fast enough. It makes sense to be rewarded more for tougher matches. Make each kill worth extra and give visible feedback of accomplishments.
Alternatively: award underdogs faster stamina regeneration. If they are underdog it's probably safe to say they're at a disadvantage. Bonus regen could be at least +25%.
I'm assuming underdog is only available in MM lobbies not custom lobbies.
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The most important thing is to make it hidden for everyone, and only visible after a match. I would not mind faster stamina regeneration either.
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I'm assuming underdog is only available in MM lobbies not custom lobbies.
huh... I doubt it as underdog generally is created by intentional stacking.
MM itself is the anti-underdog.
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Hi everyone, I don't want to disrupt the flow of discussions in the forums, and I really dislike censorship or anything that is remotely opposing free speech. We're also here to provide service, so we typically don't like to interject in discussions. However, recently I've noticed some hate, discriminatory language that are gross violations of our community standards, terms of use, and the spirit of our game and community. I apologize in advance, but we will be taking closer moderation actions, including bans. It's not something I like to do, or enjoy doing, but we have to look towards the greater community at large. Thanks, Howard
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As a followup to Bubble's post, here is the link to the Community Standards (http://gunsoficarus.com/community-standards/) - remember, this is applied in-game, on the Guns of Icarus Online official forum and website, and on any other social networking group or communication channel established and maintained by Muse Games for the Guns of Icarus Online community.
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However, recently I've noticed some hate, discriminatory language that are gross violations
Where? I looked for some hateful, discriminatory language in this thread and couldn't find any, could someone send me the link to the thread page where that's going on? Did they removed it already?
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Back on topic, I have yet to see people leave in large numbers after being labeled underdogs. I'm not sure if enough people understand the awesome Underdog system enough to either be encouraged or discouraged by it. There should be a poll taken to see how many people care about their W/L ratio/Win-streak, because I know I myself and a lot of people I know care about it greatly, but I wonder how many don't.
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That's the thing, underdog matches don't affect your KDR or whatever other number you fawn over. They're just less enjoyable.
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However, recently I've noticed some hate, discriminatory language that are gross violations
Where? I looked for some hateful, discriminatory language in this thread and couldn't find any, could someone send me the link to the thread page where that's going on? Did they removed it already?
Hopefully it got deleted. I reported a post for hate speech/slurs but I'm too lazy to go back through the thread to see if it's still there.