Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => News and Announcements => Release Notes => Topic started by: Grixis on April 30, 2015, 06:17:55 am

Title: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Grixis on April 30, 2015, 06:17:55 am
New

- Steam Workshop creator revenue sharing option

- Steam Workshop decal items integrated:
  -- Bake-kujira   
  -- Proud Eagle
  -- X Cannons

- Steam Workshop costume items integrated:
  -- Casanova's Maschera (Goggles, M)
  -- Wooden Moustache (Goggles, M & F)
  -- Carnival Tricorne (Hat, M)
  -- Tall Helmet (Hat, M)
  -- Top Player Hat (Hat, M)
  -- The Winged Panama (Hat, M & F)
  -- Pirate Bicorn (Hat, M)

- Game Grumps voice packs: 
In addition to RubberNinja’s voice sets, we’ll now have voices of Commander Holly and Egoraptor.  All proceeds from the voice sets will go to the charities of their choices!

- Ability to password practice lobbies.
- Made the 'Enter' key attempt to join at password screen
- If captain chooses a spawn point, the crew can see it.
- Switch labels between 'Ready'/'Not ready' on the Ready button (depending on the status)
- Improved spotting efficacy, particularly around cloud edges
- Improved effects for component destruction: audio is more distinct, new visuals
- Added effects to engines indicating an active pilot skill
- List other players' outfits when checking out him / her (avatar preview screen)

- Stamina:
All stamina effects are only active when the stamina key (default: left shift) is being held down and stamina gauge has not been depleted.  All effects will stop when the key is released or stamina gauge is depleted.  When stamina is active, it will deplete the stamina gauge.  Stamina gauge will refill over time.  Gunners will get a small bonus refill if they destroy components while Engineers will get a small bonus refill if they rebuild components.  Everyone on the ship will get a bonus refill when their ship gets a kill.
  -- Pilot: +125% ship thrust , -20% longitudinal drag,  +150% climb force, +150% descent force, -20% vertical drag, +15% angular drag. 
  -- Gunner: -25% reload time, +30% rotation speed, +20 degrees yaw arcs (not percent!), +40% pitch arcs
  -- Engineer: +85% movement speed and jump height
  -- Commentary: The impetus behind Stamina was to offer additional choices, and we done that by further distinguishing each role’s responsibility with unique abilities.  Not only will this introduce new crew loadouts but also new skill loadouts too.  A Pilot may use Stamina in conjunction with similar skills to increase their effectiveness or choose to carry a different set of tools to grant additional tactical options during a match.  The Gunner will need to decide when to use Stamina, either during a reload to speed up reload times or when shooting a gun to augment firing arcs and rotation speed.  For an Engineer, getting to crucial components in the nick of time can now be augmented by improved movement speed.

- Gunner HUD improvements
- Added "title" icons (both unlocked and unknown) and quest icons pertaining to underdog achievements [Details on “underdog achievements” below]
- “None” icon for decals, figureheads, themes

Changes

- Disable popup entirely in match, but add chat line indicating that an invitation was received so players can check tray if desired
- Move Steam overlay notifications' place to upper right corner
- Practice gets combat music
- Match options now saved for the session
- Friend count cap at 1000 (does not affect friend count of current friend list)

- Match system changes: 
  -- Rematch cap removed.  Rematch vote now a distinct step of end-match, and rematch can occur with 60% majority in a given match
  -- Underdog:  In the cases of pre-match team balance and win rate probability disparity exceeding a threshold, the underdog team will receive a label and can earn achievements and titles for playing the match.  The loss count in Progress would be forgiven, but of course player rating would be updated.
  -- In Custom Game, if concurrent players not in matches drop below 40, the match list will now show all available matches. 
  -- Crew slot now can only be crew and not pilot
  -- Custom Game match list logic improvement to improve balance
  -- Crew forms of multiple ships now has the option to split up without redoing crewform in the event that they waited too long
  -- Solo queuing novice players will not be placed as captain in normal matches
  -- Player post match return to single ship instead of team in crew form and automatically requeued

Balance

- Flare Gun
  -- Arming range of 200m, flare will not light until after 200m to reduce chance of lighting a cloud in front of your own ship and revealing yourself
  -- Fire stack application moved from AoE to Direct to ensure that Flare can still apply fire stacks at any range.

- Flamethrower
  -- Changed hit logic: will not completely penetrate ship and will instead stop when the center of its sphere collider hits the target ship. 
  -- Anything within the sphere collider’s radius will have the chance of fire stacks being applied.  Increased fire stack chance to 22% (from 18%).
  -- Commentary: The Engineer repair game comes down to time to complete action and number of actions that need attention at any given moment.  Previously, the Flamethrower would penetrate the entire ship and potentially set all components on fire.  For experienced players, this was not an issue due to expert use of Chemical Spray.  However, for the less experienced this created an extremely debilitating state of play (even causing us to remove Flamethrower from Novice) in both psychological and systemic ways—too many actions needing attention and too many things taking damage over time.  Now that the Flamethrower will not penetrate, this will decrease the number of things needing attention and hopefully give Engineers some room to breathe.  Coupled with an improvement to the Extinguisher, reactive play should be more manageable.  With Engineer Stamina in mind, Flamethrower now places more stacks of fire on components.  This places emphasis on the time aspect of the Engineer game where Engineer Stamina can be used in.

- Extinguisher
  -- Increased fire resistance time to 4s (from 3s)
  -- Decreased repair cooldown time to 2s (from 3s)
  -- Developer Commentary: mentioned above

- Heavy Carronade
  -- Increased jitter to 6 degrees (from 4)
  -- Pitch arcs reduced to -20 to 10 (from -30 to 15)
  -- Reload time increased to 7.5s (from 5.5)
  -- Range reduced to 400m (from 425m)
  -- Direct damage increased to 17.5 (from 17)
  -- AoE damage reduced to 10 (from 18)
  -- Commentary: In short, the HC was low risk and high reward.  It was clear that it needed some tweaking.  Pitch arcs and reload time were adjusted with new Gunner Stamina in mind.  When using Gunner Stamina, the values revert back to their previous values (or very close to).  The effective range decrease will introduce additional risk but provide the same reward of 2 vanilla shots to kill the balloon.  The AoE shatter damage decrease addresses another complaint that the weapon is effective at not only balloon lockdown but also component lockdown.  For example, if the target ship’s engines are destroyed then there is no means for them to escape.  This is problematic since the chance for the target ship to recover from a balloon lock is slimmer if engines or weapons are destroyed as well.

- Carronade
  -- Direct damage reduced to 6 (from 8 )
  -- The adjustment to direct flechette damage now means that more than one clip is required to destroy a balloon.  Compared to HC, the Carronade is slower at destroying balloons but is still quite effective against mechanical components and since it has more shots per clip than the HC, Carronade can actually destroy more components per clip compared to HC.  Despite requiring a reload to destroy the balloon, don’t forget that there is Gunner Stamina that can augment this in addition to the fact that Carronade is a Light weapon (more slot spaces).  With the distinctions between HC and Carronade, each weapon should have clearer advantages over the other.

- Heavy Clip
  -- Reduced jitter reduction to -70% (from -100%)
  -- Commentary: In hindsight, -100% jitter likely wasn’t the optimal choice as it collapses several decision spaces.  In light of the Carronades, it meant that any adjustment to their jitter wouldn’t matter since Heavy Clip would remove all of it.  Keep in mind that Heavy Clip, even with -70% jitter, is extremely powerful. In the case of the HC, the new jitter of 6 would be reduced to 1.8 degrees with new Heavy Clip.  Even with a 1.8 degree jitter, the HC will be able to get most of its shot onto a balloon at 400m.  For other weapons like Gatling, Light Flak, and Hwacha, their jitters are extremely small to begin with so even with new Heavy Clip you’ll be seeing new jitter values in the range of 0.375 to 1.2 degrees.  The Hwacha can still take out a swath of components at 400m+ range.

- Hwacha
  -- Reduced jitter to 4 degrees (from 6)
  -- Developer Commentary: related to Heavy Clip change

- Reload Mechanic
  -- When a new ammo is being reloaded into a gun, you can step off the gun and the gun will continue reloading the ammo that you intended to put in.  You no longer have to be at the gun for the last second of the reload to load a different ammo type.  Like before, you will still be able to change which ammo you’d like to reload up until the very last second without forcing another reload.  This means any player can run to every gun on a ship and load a new ammo type into each gun without having to sit there for the reload cycle.

- Wilson's Notes and Evadne’s Reports default unlocked and have no XP reward
- Sequenced class achievements XP rewards restructured to reward less at the beginning and more at the end.  The total XP rewarded for completing an entire sequence is roughly the same as before (give or take a hundred due to rounding error).
  -- Commentary: We’ve received several reports that new players are completing Novice too quickly.  After diving into the statistics into where new players are getting their XP from, we confirmed that the bulk of the XP was from various achievements.  Some were from the notes, which are very easy to unlock.  We’ve unlocked all of those since they’re useful information to have from the beginning, but we’ve also removed their XP rewards.  Furthermore, players were getting the lower sequence class achievements fairly quickly as well.  We’ve re-tuned the XP curve on achievements to an exponential curve rather than linear.  Previously, XP rewarded = sequence * 1000.  In other words, Sequence 1 rewarded 1000 XP and Sequence 2 rewarded 2000 XP.  This is a lot for lower level players.  This change will not affect the XP you’ve already accumulated but will affect all future achievements you unlock.  Hopefully this will be sufficient to prevent players from leaving Novice too soon.

- Moved in game manual to web for ease of maintenance and update
- Class selection in character customization UI no longer changes your currently selected class.
- Store title and description revisions
- Timestamp for notifications

Fixes

- Fixed Linux crashbug during dye application
- Fixed rare white smear on map when spectating
- Burning balloon now shows triple flame icon at 8 stacks and single flame icon otherwise (consistent with other components)
- Restored missing flames to the Minotaur
- Fixed floating tools on Galleon
- Fixed prev/next page buttons have no button style in the new UI
- Fixed delay in "invalid hit" sound (larger than latency)
- Fixed map and description brackets intersecting
- Fixed missing textures on both side gun platforms of the Goldfish
- Fixed objects flashing on screen while leaving guns/ladders/helms with certain tools in hand
- Fixed bug that would allow equipping duplicate tools/ammos
- Fixed speaker icon not scrolling with player name in social tab
- Fixed dummy shots when quickly exiting the Minotaur
- Fixed window remaining always on top when switching from full screen
- Can no longer interact with components behind you in 3rd person
- Fixed wind at low altitude on Canyon Ambush (2v2 & 3v3)
- Fixed vertically mispositioned button labels
- Loading screen and map descriptions now show correct (13) point reward for ship kills
- Spectators now get audio and visual effects for firing carronades
- Silhouette of a lighthouse is no longer visible through clouds on Northern Fjords (2v2 & 3v3)
- Fixed a bug that could cause novice captains to get the wrong loadout in a non-novice match if the selected ship was not unlocked
- Fixed UI bug that could cause a renamed player’s name to float across other UI
- Fixed missing UI click sounds
- Added missing units for arming time on Wilson notes and tooltips
- Fixed play button getting disabled in crew formation screen
- Fixed a bug where repair tools didn't properly give off the success and fail sounds at the correct time.
- Fixed flickering map objects on Canyon Ambush (2v2 & 3v3)
- Match list no longer shows novice matches to players who can’t join them
- You are no longer kicked from your crew when game finishes while you are AFK
- Spectator "Dutch angle" control now resets when exiting free-fly mode for any other UI state
- Fixed reward UI not showing correct icons for unclaimed items
- Fixed long email addresses overflowing registration text box
- Fixed many cases of “rubberbanding” mid-jump
- Fixed many cases of getting stuck when moving along railings, walls, obstacles, etc
- Fixed client and server character controller disagreeing when jumping above ladders
- Fixed fade out when jumping down to the bottom side guns on Junker and Mobula
- Fixed a few bugs with Engineer Tutorial

Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: MightyKeb on April 30, 2015, 06:30:15 am

- Stamina:

All stamina effects are only active when the stamina key (default: left shift) is being held down and stamina gauge has not been depleted.  All effects will stop when the key is released or stamina gauge is depleted.  When stamina is active, it will deplete the stamina gauge.  Stamina gauge will refill over time.  Gunners will get a small bonus refill if they destroy components while Engineers will get a small bonus refill if they rebuild components.  Everyone on the ship will get a bonus refill when their ship gets a kill.
  -- Pilot: +125% ship thrust , +125% longitudinal drag,  +150% climb force, +150% descent force, -20% vertical drag, +15% angular drag. 
  -- Gunner: -25% reload time, +30% rotation speed, +20 degrees yaw arcs (not percent!), +40% pitch arcs
  -- Engineer: +85% movement speed and jump height
  -- Commentary: The impetus behind Stamina was to offer additional choices, and we done that by further distinguishing each role’s responsibility with unique abilities.  Not only will this introduce new crew loadouts but also new skill loadouts too.  A Pilot may use Stamina in conjunction with similar skills to increase their effectiveness or choose to carry a different set of tools to grant additional tactical options during a match.  The Gunner will need to decide when to use Stamina, either during a reload to speed up reload times or when shooting a gun to augment firing arcs and rotation speed.  For an Engineer, getting to crucial components in the nick of time can now be augmented by improved movement speed.



Uh, muse? You missed april fools by a month.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Xylo Wenchbane on April 30, 2015, 07:39:59 am
Awesome release guys, Good to have the notes on all the weapons and ships.

Think I noticed a bug in the character screen not updating properly when changing class.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on April 30, 2015, 08:11:28 am
Finally!

Lovin it! Although right now, this emphasizes how weak the Pyra is and how OP the Goldfish is. Literally hwachafish get near unlimited stamina. Think some rebalancing will be in order but its fun to see people actually trying to fly. Great change from the: sit, blend, rinse, repeat gameplay.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Sprayer on April 30, 2015, 08:50:38 am
[...]
- Flamethrower
  -- Changed hit logic: will not completely penetrate ship and will instead stop when the center of its sphere collider hits the target ship. 
  -- Anything within the sphere collider’s radius will have the chance of fire stacks being applied.  Increased fire stack chance to 22% (from 18%).
  -- Commentary: The Engineer repair game comes down to time to complete action and number of actions that need attention at any given moment.  Previously, the Flamethrower would penetrate the entire ship and potentially set all components on fire.  For experienced players, this was not an issue due to expert use of Chemical Spray.  However, for the less experienced this created an extremely debilitating state of play (even causing us to remove Flamethrower from Novice) in both psychological and systemic ways—too many actions needing attention and too many things taking damage over time.  Now that the Flamethrower will not penetrate, this will decrease the number of things needing attention and hopefully give Engineers some room to breathe.  Coupled with an improvement to the Extinguisher, reactive play should be more manageable.  With Engineer Stamina in mind, Flamethrower now places more stacks of fire on components.  This places emphasis on the time aspect of the Engineer game where Engineer Stamina can be used in.
[...]

Doesn't this mean you can still set an entire ship on fire simply by aiming the flamer in between the hull and bloon? (and using burst ammo)
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: BlackenedPies on April 30, 2015, 09:13:14 am
Muse...
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Indreams on April 30, 2015, 09:16:28 am
Schwaibe is swearing an awful lot in Polish, I think.  :P

I like that this time, the changes aren't awfully sledgehammer. Little tweaks here and there, especially on the H.Carronade. I appreciate that.

I also appreciate the commentary. Sometimes, it's really confusing when you guys (Muse) makes balance fixes. This time, we can see the reasons.

But its an awful lot of change. I'll actually have to play to figure out what the new patch did. I'll play maybe after school today. maybe after school tomorrow.


I don't know about Stamina yet. I know it was tested quite a bit in Dev App. I didn't think it'd be a PvP thing, but okay, I guess. I want Gilder Senpai to be happy. :P
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: HillStroM on April 30, 2015, 09:47:14 am
I've no idea what Schwalbe said, but I agree.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: SiepeAssassina on April 30, 2015, 09:48:16 am
Muse...
This

And, also, fix the UI.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: SteamyNoodle on April 30, 2015, 09:58:16 am
Pilot Stamina: +125% thrust and +125% LONGITUDINAL (I can into typing) drag at the same time.  I am slightly curious, what exactly is the cumulative effect of those two changes on ship velocity and acceleration?
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Indreams on April 30, 2015, 10:01:37 am
Pilot Stamina: +125% thrust and +125% angular drag at the same time.  I am slightly curious, what exactly is the cumulative effect of those two changes on ship velocity and acceleration?

I imagine it'd be like having both Pheonix Claw and Moonshine on at the same time, without destroying the ship.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Ultimate Pheer on April 30, 2015, 10:05:40 am
Interesting changes.

Haven't played with the changes yet, probably will tomorrow, looking forward to seeing what the changes do. Also HUGE buff to the Extinguisher.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Indreams on April 30, 2015, 10:05:45 am
Also, shouldn't this really be Patch 1.5.0? There's more changes in this match than 1.4.0. It even added Stamina. Shouldn't this really be Patch 1.5.0?
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Aayra on April 30, 2015, 10:11:41 am
From a few hours of playing, I like it. I like it all.  It made the game interesting again.  I like stamina, not on engi so much, but I can get used to it, but it is a huge buff for gunners for example, being a gunner was never so much fun. Also pilot. With stamina, you have to think what and when to do even more than before. I don´t know how to feel about the flamer, we will see. But with its nerf and extinguisher buff, I hope it will stop being used only for pub stomping and lower lvls will have bigger chance in matches against flamers and will enjoy the game more. Carro nerf was needed a long time ago.

Instead of finding problems, people should enjoy the game how it is more. Devs are doing everything they can for the game and people playing it, and not just vets but also new players, something that some people can´t understand for some reason.    They can never satisfy everyone completely, there are always some individuals who will be whining about something. Or acting like 10 year olds, calling devs "bunch of fucking assholes" in polish (I hope you will get banned or something). And I am sick of opinions like "omg this is baaaad, change is baaaaad, reverse to old paaaatch". Would people like it more, if the game was stagnating at one place for years, being perfect and balanced, with the same meta? It would get boring after 2-3 months.

I like basically everything. New rematch system, being able to see spawn point,  what tool is the pilot using-super useful for crew, new(old) reload mechanics, fixing getting stuck on stuff, it was pain, spotting improvement, all the little cosmetic improvements. And so on. I can´t find anything I would dislike so far (if yes, it is just a cosmetic change, not even worth mentioning). It will maybe need some minor rebalancing in the future, but I don´t see anything wrong with that.
This patch made the game more interesting for me again, with a lot of new possibilities. I like it.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on April 30, 2015, 10:23:56 am
i think these were elegant subtle ways to make the gunner relevant; a tentative bravo muse
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Kavaliro on April 30, 2015, 11:20:14 am
This new Underdog achievements will be added to the steam list or are only in game?
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Crafeksterty on April 30, 2015, 11:24:22 am
Quote
Instead of finding problems, people should enjoy the game how it is more.

Yupp, i love this new stamina change. For pilots, it simply enhances the tools, and because of that i actualy had a varied use of tools.
I brought drogue chute+Impact bumpers as a ramming spire, which worked! Imagine that on a galleon, or squid!
I rammed a pyra to death! Dude!!! (Ofcourse i loose engine power for 3 seconds, and i need to memorise the combo) :Moonshine+Shift(hold)-Impact-Drogue-Moonshine:

Ive found out that engineers have less of a hastle getting to far away components, or atleast more desire to be running around.

And, as much as i will plan to abuse gunners new stamina changes, for now. I found it easier to stay in arc with the ship.



The thing is, as much as it added a new layer for gunners in terms of learning curve, it kinda upped the mind games between pilots. But gave comfort to engineers.
Add in the reload mechanic and were golden.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Mod Josie on April 30, 2015, 11:52:01 am
Just a quick note:
Some responses that were posted here have been removed for moderation purposes. Hopefully the conversation doesn't appear disjointed.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 12:01:24 pm
@MightyKeb, damn it.  Today's not April's Fools!?  Shoot, sorry about that.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 12:03:09 pm
@gilder, yeah these 2 points were worries we had as well.  We'll need to monitor these 2 things super closely.  But please don't throw matches away on pyras though :)  But seriously though, we totally hear you.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Steve CZ on April 30, 2015, 12:04:55 pm
You made something wrong with walking. It feels like walking knees-deep in water. As if you did something to acceleration? o.O Also, if you walk down a ramp (like those circular things around a spire) it's a real rodeo. Overall it seems like you added negative effects to walking when NOT using stamina...
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on April 30, 2015, 12:09:05 pm
Schwalbe basically said (in a lot of swearing) that devs are out of their mind and that they can go to hell, and he leaves the game. Personally I had similar feelings when matchmaker was introduced so I understand him. He said "I wrote it in polish because devs don't deserve (for me) to waste time and energy to translate"

I will state my opinion based only on patch notes, I won't get to play untill in like 6 hours.

-Fixed spotting
If it works, I'm gonna love it. I could only complain why it took them so darn long, but nonetheless it's a very good change.

-Improved audio and visuals
I don't really care much for that, frankly.

-Stamina
I'm afraid it will be matchmaker 2.0 in its effect, wiping out the population completely. But I'll try to keep my mind open until I put my hands on it.

-Moving steam notofications
Why?

-Match options now saved on session
Finally. This should not be in "changes", but in "fixed".

-Friend count cap at 1000
So finally no more "don't like matchmaker - add everyone to friendlist" argument. I'm glad that's over.

-Rematch cap removed
Good.

-Underdog
Completely unnecessary, but whatever.

-Non pilot crew
Good

-Player post match return to single ship instead of team in crew form and automatically requeued
Good

-Flamethrower
Mixed feelings, we'll see how it goes.

-Extinguisher
Very good.

-Reload mechanic
Very good. Non-game-breaking mechanic that will make gunners more useful, perhaps even 2engi/1gunner builds more valid.

- Sequenced class achievements XP rewards restructured to reward less at the beginning and more at the end.  The total XP rewarded for completing an entire sequence is roughly the same as before (give or take a hundred due to rounding error).
Very good, now raise novice lvl cap. You can do that, I believe in you.

Also, I like how Patch Notes have some explanations. This is a really good step to avoid rabble.

@Aayra
Quote
Instead of finding problems, people should enjoy the game how it is more. Devs are doing everything they can for the game and people playing it, and not just vets but also new players, something that some people can´t understand for some reason.    They can never satisfy everyone completely, there are always some individuals who will be whining about something. Or acting like 10 year olds, calling devs "bunch of fucking assholes" in polish (I hope you will get banned or something). And I am sick of opinions like "omg this is baaaad, change is baaaaad, reverse to old paaaatch". Would people like it more, if the game was stagnating at one place for years, being perfect and balanced, with the same meta? It would get boring after 2-3 months.

So... someone doesn't like something and it automatically means he's butthurting, whining and a bad person who can only see bad things in everything? Not kewl, not kewl at all.
First things first. We don't like some changes, we don't like a direction where devs are moving in some cases. We talk about it becasue we care (caring is sharing :P) and we give the best feedback we can from our personal experiences. Personally I think that for some time devs are more focused on giving good games to new players rather than veterans and it lead us to 300-400 players in prime time on weekends in spite of 'huge' amount of people who bought the game. There are many games that are not really caring or forgiving to new players - and they are prospering really good. Some of those are games that have changed very little (like CS 1.6, first Starcraft) after, say, first year of bugfixing and balancing. If game is good and deep it doesn't need constant changes and new mechanics. This is nice, of course, but not necessary if game is good, full of variety and deep.
Also, decide whether you make a general statement to all people critisizing the game or you just condemn Schwalbe's behaviour. I don't want to defend him, but I recognised your statement as something involving me also.

Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 12:09:15 pm
@Steve CZ, hmmm that shouldn't be the case.  We'l need to look at that.  Let me report this. 
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: ShadedExalt on April 30, 2015, 12:13:36 pm
Just a quick note:
Some responses that were posted here have been removed for moderation purposes. Hopefully the conversation doesn't appear disjointed.

Thanks.

Translated:

"We've deleted Schwalbe's posts.  Move along, nothing to see here."  :P

I won't be able to play for 4 hours or so, but I'm liking the sounds of most of this.    Will report back once I have played.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 12:21:24 pm
Hey guys,
Firstly, Jacob's action isn't about censorship targeting individual at all.  It's just to keep our standards on the forums consistent.  If this is not related to the update, but about anything else, say posted by me even, it'll get the same treatment.  This is not trying to avoid criticism, and I want to make that clear.  We've taken plenty of criticisms from day one, with languages that are much worse, so we don't mind it.  But it's more about the place.  That's about it.  I mean, do you guys remember the days of heavy flak or artemis?  If we are idiots now, I don't even know who we would be back then. 

Feedback is great.  Negative feedback is totally great.  You guys know we read a lot, and reply a lot, and listen a lot.  And we actually take a lot into action.  Let's not take this too personally guys.  If there's any anger, direct them towards us, and not at each other please.  You guys are all great people. 

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 12:22:13 pm
@Aayra, thank you so much.  It means a lot.  It really does. 
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: HamsterIV on April 30, 2015, 12:25:44 pm
Damn it Muse, on Day 1 I rebound Crew chat to L-Shift and Captain Chat to L-Ctrl. My left pinkie finger's muscle memory is already taken for verbal communication. I will blame you if my left hand starts getting cramps from the finger gymnastics your new game mechanic will require.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: MightyKeb on April 30, 2015, 12:34:20 pm
Damn it Muse, on Day 1 I rebound Crew chat to L-Shift and Captain Chat to L-Ctrl. My left pinkie finger's muscle memory is already taken for verbal communication. I will blame you if my left hand starts getting cramps from the finger gymnastics your new game mechanic will require.

Bind stamina to default crew/captain chat, bada bing bada boom
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Steve CZ on April 30, 2015, 12:34:40 pm
@Steve CZ, hmmm that shouldn't be the case.  We'l need to look at that.  Let me report this.

also, some places where you used to get stuck now don't stop you entirely, but kind of magnetically draw you in, so instead of getting stuck on a railing, you slide by it.... it's really weird, pls fix xD

BTW I'm sorry I only point out bugs, I'll let praising to others :) Keep up the work though :)
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: FredTheFifth on April 30, 2015, 12:40:58 pm
Love the underdog achievements, probably the hardest thing for me to do in this game :P  Are there any special items for completing underdog achievements?
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 12:43:46 pm
@hamster, damn it, I might need to get you one of those massage ball things. 
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DrTentacles on April 30, 2015, 01:34:22 pm
Well. This patch feels hamfisted. Multiple nerfs, from multiple directions, to the same guns.

If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing?
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Fynx on April 30, 2015, 01:34:36 pm
Love new buffed moonshine stamina squid rams. I don't recommend them though.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DrTentacles on April 30, 2015, 01:49:50 pm
I still intensely dislike the UI. Only change I've seen from Dev-App is the compass pips, which are nice, but don't change the main problem if it being less thematic, and more obtrusive than the previous UI.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 02:17:24 pm
@DrTentacles, would love to have you try the guns and see what your thoughts are.  And there are definitely some good points raised about the UI, and we're reviewing them.  Thanks a lot! 
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Mezhu on April 30, 2015, 03:07:16 pm
In fewer words, game has been dumbed down quite a bit.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DrTentacles on April 30, 2015, 03:10:22 pm
I admire your ability to be patient in the face of criticism, Bubbles, even if I disagree with the direction this patch went.

On an unrelated note, how do people joining mid-match affect underdog status-I could see a possible way to exploit this if it doesn't affect ranking.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Silent Marauder on April 30, 2015, 03:25:48 pm
- Stamina:
All stamina effects are only active when the stamina key (default: left shift) is being held down and stamina gauge has not been depleted.  All effects will stop when the key is released or stamina gauge is depleted.  When stamina is active, it will deplete the stamina gauge.  Stamina gauge will refill over time.  Gunners will get a small bonus refill if they destroy components while Engineers will get a small bonus refill if they rebuild components.  Everyone on the ship will get a bonus refill when their ship gets a kill.
  -- Pilot: +125% ship thrust , +125% longitudinal drag,  +150% climb force, +150% descent force, -20% vertical drag, +15% angular drag. 
  -- Gunner: -25% reload time, +30% rotation speed, +20 degrees yaw arcs (not percent!), +40% pitch arcs
  -- Engineer: +85% movement speed and jump height

- Heavy Carronade
  -- Increased jitter to 6 degrees (from 4)
  -- Pitch arcs reduced to -20 to 10 (from -30 to 15)
  -- Reload time increased to 7.5s (from 5.5)
  -- Range reduced to 400m (from 425m)
  -- Direct damage increased to 17.5 (from 17)
  -- AoE damage reduced to 10 (from 18)

- Carronade
  -- Direct damage reduced to 6 (from 8 )

- Heavy Clip
  -- Reduced jitter reduction to -70% (from -100%)

No. Just no. I'm done. What is this... Just... No... Please, no...

(http://blogs.tech-recipes.com/shamanstears/files/2010/03/w7_uninstall_programs.png)
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: BlackenedPies on April 30, 2015, 03:51:35 pm
After testing I'm not too concerned with the addition of stamina, but in some cases engi stamina isn't useful.
I think a small repair bonus should be added to give the option to move faster or repair faster. This would benefit stationary positions like balloon engi on pyra. The bonus should be small like 10-15%.

The biggest change is really how ammos react. They stay perpetually loaded in which can add interesting gameplay strategy. It'll take time to get used to, along with the stamina key which I ran out of good buttons for (have to use middle mouse).
Burst hwatcha also got a big buff- maybe a bit too big. Now there's even less reason to bring a gunner and the +25% reload bonus is hardly notable. Gunners are only marginally improved with stamina.

I'm under the impression that growing player base is more important than appeasing vets so even though I dislike the inclusion of stamina I think it could help the community.
I was deeply troubled when I first saw the changes but overall it's ok. Kinda like my reaction to MM: "oh no Muse broke the game I'm not playing anymore, oh it's not that bad and maybe it's good for new players."
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Sprayer on April 30, 2015, 03:53:16 pm
- Stamina:
All stamina effects are only active when the stamina key (default: left shift) is being held down and stamina gauge has not been depleted.  All effects will stop when the key is released or stamina gauge is depleted.  When stamina is active, it will deplete the stamina gauge.  Stamina gauge will refill over time.  Gunners will get a small bonus refill if they destroy components while Engineers will get a small bonus refill if they rebuild components.  Everyone on the ship will get a bonus refill when their ship gets a kill.
  -- Pilot: +125% ship thrust , +125% longitudinal drag,  +150% climb force, +150% descent force, -20% vertical drag, +15% angular drag. 
  -- Gunner: -25% reload time, +30% rotation speed, +20 degrees yaw arcs (not percent!), +40% pitch arcs
  -- Engineer: +85% movement speed and jump height

- Heavy Carronade
  -- Increased jitter to 6 degrees (from 4)
  -- Pitch arcs reduced to -20 to 10 (from -30 to 15)
  -- Reload time increased to 7.5s (from 5.5)
  -- Range reduced to 400m (from 425m)
  -- Direct damage increased to 17.5 (from 17)
  -- AoE damage reduced to 10 (from 18)

- Carronade
  -- Direct damage reduced to 6 (from 8 )

- Heavy Clip
  -- Reduced jitter reduction to -70% (from -100%)

No. Just no. I'm done. What is this... Just... No... Please, no...

(http://blogs.tech-recipes.com/shamanstears/files/2010/03/w7_uninstall_programs.png)

Another one bites the dust... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE)

On another note: first hotfix was already released, I demand changelogssssssssssss
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DrTentacles on April 30, 2015, 03:54:12 pm
How is stamina good for new players?
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: BlackenedPies on April 30, 2015, 03:57:49 pm
Quote from: DrTentacles
How is stamina good for new players?

Makes things a bit more interesting. As a new player I held down shift in the hope that I ran faster.

If Muse really wants stamina then complaining won't help, suggestions will.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DrTentacles on April 30, 2015, 04:04:44 pm
I don't think lack of excitement that's turning off new players. In fact, one of the biggest problems is the many, many complex and poorly explained mechanics that contribute to a steep learning curve, something that this aggravates.

The entire system fuels comeback difficulty, (stamina refuel on kill) and is just going to confuse and frustrate new players.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 04:06:14 pm
@DrTentacles, yeah it is one more thing to learn for new players if they want to use it.  To @blackenedpies's point, it could be interesting.  But we don't mind doing something for experienced players for a change hahaha, considering we get yelled at for doing stuff for new players anyways.  Well, I guess we get yelled at for just about everything.  I kid I kid. 
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: BlackenedPies on April 30, 2015, 04:12:21 pm
Stamina isn't very complex. Yes it does need to be clearly explained in game but it's not complicated: press shift to run faster, make your gun better, or boost your flying.

Yes it will increase difficulty for some, and non English speakers may have a problem, but I don't think it will reduce player retention. I will ask newer players how they feel about it.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Charon on April 30, 2015, 04:14:33 pm
"Well, I guess we get yelled at for just about everything.  I kid I kid."

That's probably pretty true, though.

DAY 48

Muse made an update today. I briefly reviewed the changes, uninstalled Guns of Icarus, and started looking into hiring a hitman to take them out. I simply can't take this anymore.

DAY 49

Boredom.

DAY 50

Installed Guns of Icarus. Tried to reach hitman on cell phone but he didn't answer. I may have been scammed.

Anyway, this should be interesting, given the outpouring of requests we had some time ago for class specific bonuses (I think the thread was "Make Gunners Useful" or something to that effect).
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 04:15:45 pm
@DrTentacles, yeah to the point of learning curve and poorly explaining things.  I don't think you're wrong there.  We need to do better overall.  A new mission based tutorial system is being designed.  It'll take us a bit, but I do agree, we need to do better.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 04:17:59 pm
@Charon, lol, nice.  But but, why have a hitman when we can have you?  Hahaha.  Haven't talked to you in a while.  Hope all is awesome! 
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Charon on April 30, 2015, 04:18:17 pm
S!
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 04:19:47 pm
@Sprayer, great catch, and sorry we didn't put up the notes.  We just patched a bug fix with tools display in recommended load out.  If anyone saw it this morning, he/she would know what this is.  If not, don't worry and it's fixed.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DrTentacles on April 30, 2015, 04:22:16 pm
@BlackenedPies

Fair enough, and I'm willing to accept that I might be wrong. However, it's not that stamina is complex. It's that stamina is *another* mechanic that you have to mentally juggle, as far as time, economy, and use, thus, it presents a skill barrier to entry, especially in the first 15 or so levels when someone is learning the basics, and forming an impression of the game. (I feel like I should start a separate thread on GOI's learning curve, but I'm sure it's all been said before. Specifically, I can't help but compare it to MOBAs.)

@Bubbles

As far as adding a new mechanic for experienced players, I'm not necessarily opposed. I guess, looking at it from that angle, my only gripe is the redundancy of pilot stamina, but I'm at a loss as how to make it unique as well.

All this being said, I think stamina isn't a great idea as implemented. However, I think I'd rather see it exist in it's current form than be nerfed to toothlessness like the Minotaur. I guess I'd rather see a mechanic that I don't like exist than be rendered toothless as some sort of compromise.

(My biggest gripes are with the Carronade and Flamethrower nerfs, TBH.)

EDIT: @Bubbles, redux. Just a question-is the new tutorial dependent on mechanics currently in development in co-op?
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Allien' on April 30, 2015, 04:25:38 pm
I don't mind the changes tbh. Part of being a competitive player is to adapt to the game as it goes, we'll work with it.  :P
I was a bit worried about the UI because of how it looked in DEV App ,but I know that you already are working on it. Like everything new It just needs some polish.

I'll be one of the few in this saying keep up the good job, at least we have Devs that care about the game  :)

(Meanwhile in my wishlist: Competitive suport! :D  )
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 04:31:01 pm
@DrTentacle, fair point on Minotaur.  It's tough to strike that balance, and it's on our minds.  With balance, we'll need to constantly look at it and think about it.  And with the gun adjustments, yeah I totally understand.  Every time we make this type of adjustment, it's always tough, because it affects people's use cases and preferences etc.  I do think we've been a lot better in terms of looking at larger samples, stats on usage and win rates, and looking at feedback and people's reasoning behind the feedback before we make changes.  And we've been trying to get everyone to test more before we roll anything out  I don't think we're at the days of the heavy flak or old artemis anymore.  I'm not sure if you were in the game during those days, but people look back on those days and shutter.  Really appreciate the points on stamina as well. 
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 04:32:40 pm
@Allien, thanks a lot.  yeah competitive support like pauses, ref controls etc are super cool. 
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: BlackenedPies on April 30, 2015, 04:34:41 pm
Quote from: Allien'
(Meanwhile in my wishlist: Competitive support! :D  )

Competitions that are accessible to newer players would be a great addition. Right now it's just vets and I'm sure many newer clans would like to compete against eachother. It could really help the player base.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on April 30, 2015, 04:38:11 pm
This is the greatest patch in probably near 2yrs now. Bubbles have my baby!! :D
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DJ Logicalia on April 30, 2015, 04:48:21 pm
After a little testing in the main game, I hate to admit it, but... this is a good patch. Stamina adds an interesting new element of gameplay and isn't too balance breaking. The new visual and audio effects are great.

I don't like the heavy nerf though. You need to remove the ammo decrease or at least lessen it greatly or heavy hwacha is going to lose its usefulness greatly.

The UI is really bad. It's way too big and totally takes me out of it. It's in your face and takes up way too much of the screen. That's really the worst part of it. The compass to huge and the score counter is so prominent, while more important info like the eye that shows if your spotted or not is way too small. It's really bad. It really takes you out of the whole steam/dieselpunk thing, too. It's too white and clean and huge. This needs to be changed. You also can't see the score on the respawn screen anymore which is bad. 

Also, on the victory screen you can only see one ship, and by the time it switches to the other ship, the roster/score is up and you can't see the people on the second ship.

All in all... this isn't the worst patch ever and it made some good changes. But this UI really needs tweaking. It was in the dev app for a bout 2 days before it was implemented. It needed more testing
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 04:56:36 pm
@gilder, wait wait wait, you're not yelling at me?  I almost don't know what to do...  Hahaha.  Thanks a lot.  This really means a lot.  Really appreciate it. 
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Schwalbe on April 30, 2015, 05:01:48 pm
Richard had some insanely good ideas on UI improvement. But I guess it will be ignored.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on April 30, 2015, 05:03:52 pm
Why be upset? This completely solves the issue I saw with the Squid. Even if it happens, stamina can help smooth it out. Maybe in the future Watchmaker will figure out what it was. I do apologize for the misunderstanding.

Thx Muse for not giving up on Stamina. Been a lot of discussion of pros and cons but I'm glad to see it in. And if it happens to lead to more good changes, all the better :D I'm looking forward to hearing Keyvias relay feedback on it over the coming weeks.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: nanoduckling on April 30, 2015, 05:18:15 pm
My reaction to the patch is mostly positive. Stamina don't seem too unbalanced and effectively give gunners a buff which was much needed. Stamina is fun to use as a pilot. The changes to the weapons are  mostly subtle this time around which is a major positive (I'd rather it take 2 patches to balance things slowly and carefully than what happened with the last patch and the pyra). One exception is the flamer, this seems excessive. I'd prefer a reduction (say 8m) in penetration. That way a flamer against a galleon is less effective (and I think galleons could do with some love), but a squid has to be carefully flown to avoid fire problems, something that should now be entirely possible with the benefits of stamina. If it isn't going to penetrate then a larger AoE or something is needed. As it stands the weapon has very few uses. Carro nerf isn't massive, but I think it will have far reaching effects on how we use our blenderfish, which might end up being welcome.

So on the whole seems good. Only one serious negative for me. The UI. It is more obtrusive and yet less information dense.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dutch Vanya on April 30, 2015, 05:29:22 pm
Why?

Why is the only dev activity on the forums a bunch of off-topic joke posts in a thread about release notes?

The community who knows this game had so many concerns that they expressed here and through email.

All we get in response is bubbles shooting the shit?

However i do i think this is a decent patch. Stamina is pointless but not disastrous imo and there are some other decent changes.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: SamSandri on April 30, 2015, 05:33:19 pm
The only thing i dislike from this nice update is the new UI. It's kinda "off topic".
It's too white and it ruin  the steampunk and dieselpunk feeling, and it's way too big (ie compass).

A little restyling would be totaly appreciated!
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 05:36:40 pm
@Schwalbe, nope!  Already read and replied.  Definitely not ignored, and definitely some great points there.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Schwalbe on April 30, 2015, 05:46:57 pm
Yeah. I can hear such formulas too often. As I said, I don't care. Just wanted to mention that as a farewell, cause it was good idea and might've been missed.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Dev Bubbles on April 30, 2015, 06:03:49 pm
@Dutch, I didn't think I wasn't seriously answering everyone's questions or concerns here.  And I don't know why there's an impression that we didn't answer people's feedback, especially on email.  I felt like the track record has been good.  But yeah, I'll watch my tone, not a problem.  Thanks for letting me know.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Byron Cavendish on April 30, 2015, 06:21:40 pm
Can you guys at least add an option to toggle off this butt ugly ui? Unless you plan on changing it I cannot play the game, it pains me to see a perfectly good ui taken and turned into a physically painful ui that looks like it was made by a graphic design enthusiast in high school. Seriously, whoever designed that ui should be embarrassed.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Omniraptor on April 30, 2015, 06:23:57 pm
This is a pretty great patch, thank you muse for posting the reasoning behind changes and for responding in the thread, most of the changes are amaazing, especially matchmaking QOL changes are very welcome. However I have a few concerns, sorry if I sound negative but the changes I don't mention are great.

- Underdog status will scare new players even more. I support the idea of extra perks for playing against more experienced people, but please don't make it seem like they're going to lose. This is almost as bad as showing MMR scores, and doesn't follow the logic that went into hiding them. Basically underdog status should only be displayed if you win, because as a noob I would much rather be pleasantly surprised after a victory, than told that I am likely to fail.

- gunner (and general) ui change: no! http://i.imgur.com/zvPbTVf.png at least not without an extensive rework

- Engineer stamina seems kinda useless with repair cooldowns being what they are (and especially for static gungineers like junker bottom deck). Even if I'm a mallet/spanner/chem engi all I can get out of stamina is more staring and waiting for cooldowns. We would really like either a cooldown reduction while on stamina and/or increased swinging speed for rebuilding/buffing.

- Pilot stamina is good, but why on earth would it add drag? I wanna go fast.

- Worried about the flamer. It will also be much harder to burn down guns while remaining safe from them. However we will see in testing.

- I also dislike the heavy clip hwacha changes, haven't tested it yet but something tells me the 1km hwacha disables might be harder or impossible now. That was one of the big things hwacha had going for it, being usable at long range. If the rockets only spread 1.2 degrees of an 800m circle, they spread out across 16 meters, when they need to be concentrated in one spot. Conclusion: I'm never disabling a goldfish's main engine with a hwacha again  :'( :'( :'(

The math is (default spread * heavy clip spread modifier * range * 2 * pi ) to figure out the radius of the dispersion at a certain range.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Extirminator on April 30, 2015, 06:48:14 pm
The math is (default spread * heavy clip spread modifier * range * 2 * pi ) to figure out the radius of the dispersion at a certain range.

Isn't it:

Range*sin( jitter_angle*jitter_multiplier )

I think that would make more sense
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Omniraptor on April 30, 2015, 06:56:41 pm
Yeah, but at these scales the difference is a matter of millimeters.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Daft Loon on April 30, 2015, 06:59:26 pm
Played several games as pilot as soon as the update went live, mostly close range ramming mobula.
-Really enjoyed using pilot stamina it made piloting a ship like the mobula much more forgiving (unless you make mistakes while using up all your stamina)
-The addition of stamina to ramming is very powerfull from what ive see so far, it might need to be watched for balance. Although i got caught out by the new drouge chute, impact bumpers combo at least once.
-Ill add my name to the calls for the UI changes to get some attention from the art department (the rematch vote in particular needs a frame or something to smooth its current flat blue box look)
-The stairs on the junker up to the helm felt weird to walk up
-I saw an ai crewman with rank and level above his character (26, chief technician if i remember it correctly) what does this mean if anything (i checked crew list and his costume it wasnt a sneaky ai clan member unless they are bugged to look like ai and not appear in crew list)
-The underdog matches i was in (2 wins and maybe 2-3 losses from 10-15 games) never felt like underdog matches to me, going by player level it looks like it expects experienced crews/players to be able to carry teams/ships more then they can (not sure how you could balance that though because sometimes they can - particularly the pilot and high impact gunners (lumberjack, mines etc))
-Apart from the initial wait for enough people to get back online for 1 game to start i spent several hours and 10-15 games and barely saw the lobbies or the matchmaker, ill put some of that down to excitement to see the new changes but the one time i got sent to the single ship auto searching form it took about 10 seconds, this is great
-maybe it was the abundance of close range spires and my ramming mobula but matches seemed to be much faster and kills/deaths easier than before
-The new sound effects and explosion effects are great, the sound of the hull groaning is much more attention grabbing than a small red shield icon sometimes
-an explanation of how thrust,drag,inertia etc are implemented would be helpfull - i sort of understand how stamina has the effects it does based on real physics but im not sure
-"Magical" abilities replenished by destroying and killing - BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Extirminator on April 30, 2015, 07:37:09 pm
Yeah, but at these scales the difference is a matter of millimeters.

I think I am not following here, what are you taking for your "default spread" variable to be exactly? Because both method do not conclude in the same results as far as I can see it.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DrTentacles on April 30, 2015, 07:47:12 pm
Hull break noise can get annoying on Squid, or any ship where it goes up or down a lot, but I suspect that will fade. I love the new sound effects and visual effects, especially compared to their beta versions.

Flamethrower nerf is bad. Really, really bad. Nearly unusable bad.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Omniraptor on April 30, 2015, 07:48:53 pm
Spread for 400 meters:

4 / 360 deg * 0.3  * 400 * 2 * pi = 8.37758041 about equal to

400 m * sin(4 deg * 0.3) =  8.37696795

Apparently I can't into math. However point still stands, you won't be able to efficiently target individual components anymore.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Extirminator on April 30, 2015, 07:59:37 pm
Spread for 400 meters:

4 / 360 deg * 0.3  * 400 * 2 * pi = 8.37758041 about equal to

400 m * sin(4 deg * 0.3) =  8.37696795

Apparently I can't into math. However point still stands, you won't be able to efficiently target individual components anymore.

Ah ok, I guess you were just converting it into radians.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on April 30, 2015, 08:02:17 pm
Playing with Heavy Clip Hwacha...I was maybe able to get one part disable if that and that was pelting the same target with a full clip. It feels very weak.

Playing with Burst, I was able to get plenty. Heavy Clip feels very dead.

That said, Hwachafish feel very powerful because Stamina enables them to reload very quick and also keep pilot stamina refreshed more often. However, I don't think that needs to be nerfed. If anything the Goldfish should not be as tanky as it is if it is moving so fast. This was very evident when I was on some ships under 2v1s and our Fish just kept living through it all. Literally with multiple people rebuilding we had hull rebuilds as fast as squids and with how beefy it is we could make them work for the kill for a long time.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Keyvias on April 30, 2015, 08:41:12 pm
Hey Gilder,

What ranges are you firing at with the heavy clip?  Do you have any video?  I'd love to see what you're seeing and compare it to our test results to see what's different.

Thanks for the feedback (both the positive stuff and the critical eye it really does help us out!)
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Extirminator on April 30, 2015, 09:41:32 pm
- Heavy Carronade
  -- Increased jitter to 6 degrees (from 4)
  -- Pitch arcs reduced to -20 to 10 (from -30 to 15)
  -- Reload time increased to 7.5s (from 5.5)
  -- Range reduced to 400m (from 425m)
  -- Direct damage increased to 17.5 (from 17)
  -- AoE damage reduced to 10 (from 18)


When you are saying that shatter damage was reduced to 10 from 18, with 20 buckshots - it needs to be 200. However, in  the wilson's notes it says 240. Do you means it was reduced to 12 and not 10?
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Extirminator on April 30, 2015, 10:49:08 pm
Playing with Heavy Clip Hwacha...I was maybe able to get one part disable if that and that was pelting the same target with a full clip. It feels very weak.


Also you should be able to destroy a heavy gun, on average, considering you aim straight at the center of it's hit-box with heavy clip hwacha not buffed, within a distance of 586m. In that range you are guaranteed to destroy it statistically once every clip (15 shots) fired. And a bit farther away for components with less HP.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on April 30, 2015, 11:47:04 pm
Hmm, hard to say. Within 500 I think it was. Wasn't in cqc range but it wasn't long. Although I shot some shots at long and still really didn't score anything. I switched ammo from HC pretty quick after I saw how poor it was. Used to get a guaranteed break with it. Heck even ranged, Burst was still better. I'd miss a bunch of shots but generally get a few parts.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 01, 2015, 12:39:58 am
Stamina isn't very complex. Yes it does need to be clearly explained in game but it's not complicated: press shift to run faster, make your gun better, or boost your flying.

Chess is not complicated either in mechanics, yet people take lifetimes to learn it. Now add an extra piece or another row to the game. Still not complex rules, but will take much much longer to teach.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: BlackenedPies on May 01, 2015, 02:04:15 am
Hwatcha got a big buff and now burst is for all ranges. There's never a reason to use heavy anymore. If jitter is increased then heavy needs another buff to compensate.

The biggest problem with the UI is that the dots for the ship icons on compass don't indicate relative distance away.  The red and blue ship icons could be improved and I miss hull health being separated into sections to show % health. The score needs to be shown on the respawn map.

It's time to remove locking class in match. Leaving and rejoining as a different class doesn't work if your press the resume button, you have to join on someone. There's no reason to limit changing classes in match and add a not intuitive way to bypass it.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: LogHalley on May 01, 2015, 05:09:20 am
I liked this update >.< i've played a bit and as engineer, with stamina i almost never rebuild something by myself, as a pilot it's so much fun, i haven't tried as a gunner yet but being able to move around and still have your ammo loaded is nice.
My only, real, big issue is that the new compass doesn't tell me heights anymore. I used to spend more time watching that and the map than the actual game, but the new one in deathmatch is kind of pointless to me. I don't want the old one back, i just want it to work like it did, i could always perfectly put myself as high as the ship i was aiming for, or i could guess where the ships were just by looking at the compass and the map. I know not many people use it but i did :/
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: IvKir on May 01, 2015, 06:23:57 am
I don't... feel sure about stamina. Sure, it's fun against, say, bots and etc. But in PVP? When junker became a kinda nullifier for squid (with stamina and claw you can keep enemy squid on needed side long enough to kill it's engines)
Speed boost for engineer is kinda... idea. But only if you non lagging.

And yeah, they.. fixed the Heavy Carronade. And then give gunner Stamina, which nullifies all nerf from patch. Brilliant.

But i like changes for new flamer mechanics and extinguisher. But UI is really very big. Why do i ever need a class sign in my left lover corner?

Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Fynx on May 01, 2015, 08:04:50 am
After some playing and experimenting:

Stamina

Engineer stamina
Not a big change, it's nice to speed up the race to the hull sometimes, I like it.

Gunner stamina
Not a big change either - it's useful on some guns to speed up the reload a little bit or move lochnagar h. flak, but it doesn't unbalance anything. On the other side full buff engineer is still very useful in many many situations. Gatlings and carronades. Mercury. Hades. Even hwacha. And surprisingly heavy carro as well.

Pilot stamina
Now that's a big change - did some experimenting with that. Ramming is much more effective now, decreasing / increasing altitude with ships that have good vertical mobility (spire, mobula, squid) is insane. Dodging can be used much more often and is much more efficient (especially spires and squids). I like it.

Stamina in general
It's an additional factor that doesn't break the game but makes pilots have to think twice as fast. It makes dodging extremely easy in some situations and possible in others. It allows for unexpected faster reloads, arcs. Experienced engineers can now utilise their super hardcore tricks and not lock in the environment (yay!).
Inexperienced players who strive to understand the game mechanics cannot use this new feature to full extend. Because lots of stuff.
It's an additional layer of what can happen for the experienced players, too.


UI

Like in posts above this one, new UI is too obtrusive and it's more difficult to extract information from it.
I'm particularly unhappy about guns reloading - little ammo icon being greyed out and slowly filling up with white... previously it was a big circle with turning marker - I liked the previous version much more, much more visible.
Additional info like active pilot tool - that's awesome.


Carronades and carrorelated

As a dedicated blenderfish pilot I can put here quite a lot of thoughts (oh no you broke my toy).

What was h. carro before:
Overpowered fast balloon popping and additionally nicely armour stripping weapon capable of disabling any component with one shot at medium range. Capable of killing enemy on it's own.
What is h. carro now:
Average decently fast balloon popping gun with terrible arcs. Cannot be used without other weapons.

Nerfs:
- arcs
- power
- focus (heavy clip)

Arcs
Well this couldn't have been avoided. Though with other nerfs it's completely unnecessary.

Power
Now this is an issue for anyone thinking 'I can use h. carro only and ram them'. It's very difficult to keep enemies on the ground once you put them there.
It's very difficult to kill enemy ships that are already on the ground. You can ram them, but if they're using impact bumpers (or drogue chute?) it's not going to help much. I repeat: put an enemy ship on the ground, shoot it with heavy carro and ram it - the effect is going to be this ship flying away.

Heavy clip
Disables on weapons not possible anymore (except for extremely close range). It's still helpful against pyramidions, but trying to kill a pyra with a blenderfish now is a pain. I know, I've tried. The heavy clip general effect not good in my opinion. Especially that heavy clip hwacha is practically useless. Because burst.

What is now and what I think it should be
Blenderfish was destroying everything too fast. Balloons, armour, components. Now it's not very helpful in disabling components, has troubles with keeping the enemy balloon down and forget about additional armour stripping. It's still effective against big balloon enemies (junker, galleon, spire and nothing more) but then you just put a full buff engineer (no, not a gunner. why? because damage) on the front with charged / heatsink so the general damage is maximised. Ramming is much more needed now, in every encounter you'd think you need to avoid rams. So are side guns.
In my humble opinion what is now
- Balloon destruction speed is just fine. Still effective in many situations, but quite often not effective anymore.
- General damage is too low. I have an idea how to solve it...
- Heavy clip change is a bad thing. One thing is that it shouldn't be used against big balloon ships at all, second thing is it unbalanced burst hwacha.
And what to change
- Revert heavy clip changes, so the carro nerf doesn't make other guns stronger.
- Change carro (heavy and light) shatter damage to piercing and decrease it. This way carronades can't get instant disables and with flechette damage nerf it's still not so easy to grind enemies into the ground all the time. Even with stamina!


General thoughts

So many things that needed fixing were fixed. So many improvements. Nice work :)
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Steve CZ on May 01, 2015, 08:27:32 am
I'm worried why am I the only one talking about weird walking? Is it just me? o.O I am now unable to move effectively around the ship. If I make a sudden 180° turn, I stop completely and have to accelerate slowly again. Feels like ice skating -_- .

Also, I think someone meddled with FOV. sides of screen seem weirdly distorted. And when I mount a gun, I see it from further away than before (not a big problem).

To add some thoughts about stamina too: I still dont feel I need a gunner more now. Reload speed buff seems weak. With the new reload mechanic, it seems even better than before to use the reload time for repairing/buffing. Arcs buff seems pretty useless most of the time too. Light guns with bigger ammo clips don't need it. So again, you would bring the gunner for heavy guns only... or maybe not even that. :(
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Watchmaker on May 01, 2015, 10:36:03 am
Steve you are definitely not the only one to have noticed "weird walking."  There is definitely something peculiar going on, I suspect it is a side effect of changes I made (at the last minute) to reduce instances of getting stuck on railings.  I'm investigating (and, hopefully, fixing) this.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Steve CZ on May 01, 2015, 11:37:56 am
Steve you are definitely not the only one to have noticed "weird walking."  There is definitely something peculiar going on, I suspect it is a side effect of changes I made (at the last minute) to reduce instances of getting stuck on railings.  I'm investigating (and, hopefully, fixing) this.

Thanks, it just felt weird it's not getting attention here, as it was the first thing that hit me :)
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: HamsterIV on May 01, 2015, 11:52:57 am
So I rebound Stamina to right mouse, and the right mouse functions to middle mouse. My earlier cursing about finger gymnastics is now a bit moot. The Stamina powers on the gunner and pilot are interesting, however I didn't find much use for the engineer stamina especially with the grabbier ship geometry.

While the UI is not an offense to my eyes, I do miss the team indicator. Sometimes I forget if I am on red or blue, especially if I spent my time in lobby socializing.

The post match rematch/crewform is much better. I was able to take the same crew through several servers without getting hung up on endless waits on the match maker. It would be nice to have more post game pose off time without the commendation or Rematch screen covering my fancy duds. Many of us work hard to get our post apocalyptic fashion just right, the game should give us more time to flaunt it over out defeated opponents.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: evodoc on May 01, 2015, 12:23:41 pm
While the UI is not an offense to my eyes, I do miss the team indicator. Sometimes I forget if I am on red or blue, especially if I spent my time in lobby socializing.

There are two ship icons right under the compass, and there should be an arrow above one of those indicating your team color.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 01, 2015, 12:24:17 pm
There is a tiny arrow pointing down at the ship the color your team is (very tiny in a world of everything else too big). But yes, I miss that as well. Maybe the entire HUD could be your team color so there is no mistake.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: HamsterIV on May 01, 2015, 01:14:26 pm
I totally missed that too. The entire HUD is a bit much. That little colored box in the bottom corner was just right. Also on the topic of UI, I think the lines are too clean given the worn and rusty nature of the world. A little bit of scratching and faded edges would go a long way to making the UI feel more harmonious with the environment.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DJ Logicalia on May 01, 2015, 01:42:23 pm
While the UI is not an offense to my eyes, I do miss the team indicator. Sometimes I forget if I am on red or blue, especially if I spent my time in lobby socializing.

There are two ship icons right under the compass, and there should be an arrow above one of those indicating your team color.
The arrow doesn't work

Also, those ships are bloody huge and undo any element of immersion I had achieved prior
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: evodoc on May 01, 2015, 02:18:08 pm
While the UI is not an offense to my eyes, I do miss the team indicator. Sometimes I forget if I am on red or blue, especially if I spent my time in lobby socializing.

There are two ship icons right under the compass, and there should be an arrow above one of those indicating your team color.
The arrow doesn't work

Also, those ships are bloody huge and undo any element of immersion I had achieved prior

You mean you don't have that arrow?
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DJ Logicalia on May 01, 2015, 02:20:38 pm
While the UI is not an offense to my eyes, I do miss the team indicator. Sometimes I forget if I am on red or blue, especially if I spent my time in lobby socializing.

There are two ship icons right under the compass, and there should be an arrow above one of those indicating your team color.
The arrow doesn't work

Also, those ships are bloody huge and undo any element of immersion I had achieved prior

You mean you don't have that arrow?
I mean it stays on the same colour, even if you move to a different team during lobby shuffle

Sorry, should have clarified
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: DrTentacles on May 01, 2015, 02:30:12 pm


 With the distinctions between HC and Carronade, each weapon should have clearer advantages over the other.[/i]



You know, I think one of the larger problems, between the 'taur, and the Heavy Carronade nerf, is that there doesn't appear to be a solid consensus on where Heavy Weapons fit into the paradigm. Are they stronger than light guns, or on the same level, and simply different? If the latter, this seems to seriously hurt ships that rely on them for much of their damage. The Goldfish effectively sacrifices a bifecta to mount a single-heavy weapon, so you should assume that's the core of the ship.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: evodoc on May 01, 2015, 02:31:15 pm
While the UI is not an offense to my eyes, I do miss the team indicator. Sometimes I forget if I am on red or blue, especially if I spent my time in lobby socializing.

There are two ship icons right under the compass, and there should be an arrow above one of those indicating your team color.
The arrow doesn't work

Also, those ships are bloody huge and undo any element of immersion I had achieved prior

You mean you don't have that arrow?
I mean it stays on the same colour, even if you move to a different team during lobby shuffle

Sorry, should have clarified

Thanks, I managed to reproduce it. Forwarded the issue to the programmers.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Hilary Briss on May 01, 2015, 02:35:28 pm
In addition to all the above.

The capture point timer is almost in the middle of the screen. Exaggeration yes. However it is still far too low down for my taste & others have passed comment on this also. To me it is like a big "puss filled bubo" in the middle of my screen. It has no need to be that low.

Had a crew member enquire if there was a hotkey to disable the new UI as it is ******* Ugly. Unfortunately still have to agree. Why. It is still not in-keeping with the theme of the game. The colored ships look like something out of a childrens book. Again not in-keeping with the games theme, thus killing the immersion even more.

Instead of placing the ui components below each other in a terraced fashion. Can we not just have them on the top row where the compass is?

How about an option that allows you to switch back to the old UI?

Still not a fan of the UI. At this point doubt will ever be.

As an Engineer still not a fan of the Stamina, nothing better than running whilst the ship attempts to magnetize you to something metallic.

The sludgy feel to walking &  movement without stamina has been mentioned, but it needs to be mentioned again.

Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on May 01, 2015, 04:52:35 pm
As a major grumbler I have something to say.

This patch is actually good.

There's no or almost none bugs, rematch voting makes waiting shorter, stamina is not game-breaking and interesting feature, many things are fixed/changed based on player feedback...

Good job Muse. Keep it up.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: FredTheFifth on May 01, 2015, 05:13:52 pm
Concerning Titles:
I got a title of doing an underdog achievement (eventually) and I changed my current title of commander elite to tide-turner, however I couldn't change it back, so I am stuck with the title of tide turner. Thought I would let you know
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 01, 2015, 07:00:51 pm
I don't... feel sure about stamina. Sure, it's fun against, say, bots and etc. But in PVP? When junker became a kinda nullifier for squid (with stamina and claw you can keep enemy squid on needed side long enough to kill it's engines)


Junker has always been a nullifier for Squids. If you didn't notice this before, you must have either flown against bad Junker pilots or you don't fly attack squids. Their armor is just too thick and their gun arcs too broad to wait for armor strip. I'll fight junkers with AT squids but only if their ally Pyra has been killed. Then I'll have time to sit around going through gat clips to try and breach them. Course once breached, they fold up quickly. Disable squids used to be the only viable option against junkers. Course if your ally couldn't 1v1 their ally, you'd be dead.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: SiepeAssassina on May 02, 2015, 06:26:51 am
After some matches I'm starting to like some rebalances:
-Extinguisher is a thing (again), I loved it and now I can go full retard with it :D
-H.Carro is no more the Ultimate Counter against Junkers and Galleons;
-Engineer stamina is quite pointless but this class didn't and doesn't need any buffs (imo);
-The permanent ammo is something I always wanted: I can load lochs & repair stuff now :D
And last but not least:
UI is terribad *@/"(
PLS Muse Fix
<3 Siepe

P.S.
There are some bugs but I know (read: hope) you'll take care of them
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: IvKir on May 02, 2015, 08:59:33 am
Another issue with engineer stamina, is that if you a little bit lagging or playing on ping over 100 ms, then you get, sometimes, teleported back a few steps. Thats kinda annoying.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Indreams on May 02, 2015, 09:49:10 am
I agree with everyone that has complained about UI. The new ones with thick white lines feel, I don't know, modern. They feel like those cheap flying simulators.

(https://i.imgflip.com/kyk0o.jpg)

Also, why do components flash bright green when they break? That's a bug, right?
Also, why do my heart beat when I use Stamina as a Pilot? I'm not doing anything cardiovascular when piloting. It feels really weird.



But other than the graphics/ui/sound stuff, I am loving the new patch. I rather enjoy stamina, and I love the new balance (But I won't flamethrower for some time).


Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: ShadedExalt on May 02, 2015, 09:56:02 am
I don't find walking and such sluggish, and I don't totally get stuck anymore... But I do seem to stick magnetically to certain things.  Was top deck engi On a Pyra, running from right gun to left/balloon (long story) had me stick a little to the railing.  Popped a little stamina to break free.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 02, 2015, 04:32:18 pm
Is the spotting system working right? I never see the eye thing open on me anymore. Thought it was just people weren't spotting me but then I notice how often I get targeted and shot through clouds.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: MightyKeb on May 02, 2015, 04:41:43 pm
Is the spotting system working right? I never see the eye thing open on me anymore. Thought it was just people weren't spotting me but then I notice how often I get targeted and shot through clouds.

LOL gilder is actually playing the game
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 02, 2015, 05:01:51 pm
Been playing more since the squid patch but Stamina has me on just about every night now. I just don't often play during mainstream times. Never have.

But I can say this much...after stamina hit, most opposing pilots, even newer players with sub 50-100 games, became better. Haven't had as many 5-0s and they are taking advantage of it well. It's been more of a challenge. Which is good.

Oh one more thing I've noticed. This hasn't been super common but there are times when the vertical movement seems to freeze. I've had to jump off helm and back on to unlock it again. The only commonality when it happens is I usually see it after using Chute Vent. Or sometimes when I hit it, the ship just hangs there even when I use stamina to try to force it to drop. Its hard to replicate as it doesn't happen consistently. Just suddenly in combat, it goes out.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Ashunera on May 05, 2015, 12:01:12 pm
Is the spotting system working right? I never see the eye thing open on me anymore. Thought it was just people weren't spotting me but then I notice how often I get targeted and shot through clouds.

I've noticed the same thing, at first I thought it was just them trying for non spot achievements (which annoyed me as I need to shake spots on the junker, my least favorite ship, before I can never use it again) But then I got a shaken spot so....
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: evodoc on May 05, 2015, 12:32:21 pm
Is the spotting system working right? I never see the eye thing open on me anymore. Thought it was just people weren't spotting me but then I notice how often I get targeted and shot through clouds.

I've noticed the same thing, at first I thought it was just them trying for non spot achievements (which annoyed me as I need to shake spots on the junker, my least favorite ship, before I can never use it again) But then I got a shaken spot so....

Yeah there is something going on with that icon, fix is coming soon.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Extirminator on May 05, 2015, 01:13:55 pm
Btw I am fairly certain that the description for gunner stamina should be +25% reload speed and not -25% reload time.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: ZnC on May 05, 2015, 01:40:22 pm
Btw I am fairly certain that the description for gunner stamina should be +25% reload speed and not -25% reload time.

Following several thread discussions, I am also curious as to the actual effect. The two sound similar but are pretty different things; would be nice if a dev could shed some light on this.
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Omniraptor on May 05, 2015, 04:28:50 pm
@zanc

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,6143.msg103764.html#msg103764
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: Replaceable on May 05, 2015, 05:54:50 pm
i like it.
ui could be tidier
nice job muse
Title: Re: Release 1.4.1 Notes
Post by: greendra on May 10, 2015, 01:11:08 pm
 :)
This is a great update!