Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: RearAdmiralZill on February 24, 2015, 10:38:09 am
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- Pyramidion: Hull Health decreased to 550 (from 700), Forward Acceleration decreased to 2.25m/s2 (from 2.5)
I can't believe I'm going to start this in this manner, but yea, this looks real harsh, and may very well break the Pyra. The Pyra already died pretty darn fast when it's hull armor went down. It's health before was pretty balanced. I just didn't like its turn speed, with claw involved.
Looking at the stats now, I'd frankly be afraid of ramming things, and I think that's a big red flag for a ship that is designed around ramming.
I think the speed nerf can stick, but that hull health is rough.
Discuss with words, not rants.
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As I've already stated...
Rest in peace pyramidion.
I've not spoken to muse about it yet, but for some reason I have the feeling this I not intended to be a.permanent nerf, and simply a nerf to make the pyra less used, across the grid and encourage the use of other ships, then when a set amount of time has passed, put the permahull back up to a balanced number. (Not the speeds.)
Its why Hades received a huge buff once upon a time, make a less used gun over powered to encourage it's use, and another gun under powered, while trying to not kill game balance.
So although.upset to see the Sky Slicer spend more time at the sky port, I thi k the pyra will return as a balanced vanguard.
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I've never known Muse to put things in as a temporary measure. If that were the case, they would update a lot more than they currently do. You can't justifiably nerf things that are just popular to use. Make the other options appealing (see other ship buffs) or give more options (see new guns).
The why at this stage is kinda moot though.
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Oh Muse admitted in a Fireside chat that some buffs and nerfs will be in the interest of game and player base balance, in fact it is more common than many people care to admit in all pvp games, balancing is not just about the numbers of ships and weapons but also on the numbers generated by the players. (weapons used, ships used, tools used, wins using X losses using X etc)
Though when I say temporary, I don't mean a couple of weeks, I mean temporary, couple of patches, perhaps even until a new ship is released...
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In the words of my pilot who shall not be named: "No competitive player thought that (the pyra was OP)."
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In the words of my pilot who shall not be named: "No competitive player thought that (the pyra needed a nerf)."
I disagree with your un-named pilot!
Every competitive player I know agrees it needed a nerd, just not the nerf it was given.
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In the words of my pilot who shall not be named: "No competitive player thought that (the pyra needed a nerf)."
I disagree with your un-named pilot!
Every competitive player I know agrees it needed a nerd, just not the nerf it was given.
My bad, quoted wrongly, should be accurate now.
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Was the Pyra OP? Not really, it was just easy. Other ships do a lot better, but take a lot more work to crew effectively. But the pyra was, and still is, a very simple ship. It's so simple to divide your crew up and have them each cover a fairly limited area. Every other ship requires a lot more running around on the part of the crew, and they have to be so much more flexible in dealing with issues that come up. This patch probably won't hurt the pyra all that much in competitive play. Sure it's a little slower in regards to acceleration, but the pyra, and most other ships have often been in a position where you lose your armor and you're dead before you can fix it. Not always true of course, but very often (especially against gat-mortar). Really this will affect the pub matches more, which might be a good thing. Encourage players to start practicing on other ships and learning different positions and roles. Although probably not.
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Yeah no, the Pyramidion was not op at all. I did say once before how the Pyramidion cannot do anything better than literally every other ship. Gat/Carro Pyramidion might be the only thing it can really excel and that's it.
At the very least, it does not deserve the hull health nerf.
Now, in competitive matches where my ally is a Pyramidion, I will be considering instant surrender.
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Yeah no, the Pyramidion was not op at all. I did say once before how the Pyramidion cannot do anything better than literally every other ship. Gat/Carro Pyramidion might be the only thing it can really excel and that's it.
At the very least, it does not deserve the hull health nerf.
Now, in competitive matches where my ally is a Pyramidion, I will be considering instant surrender.
Hey Daniel, want to team up for SCS?
I'll bring the Sky Slicer 8)
More seriously:
Charging speed nerf for pyramidion would have been enough, male it harder to get those brawler builds into range and the pyra is already at a great disadvantage for its most common builds, gat mortar, gat carro, carro flamer.
Nerf the perma hull and the speed and now the vanguard of the fleet has turned into the retired veteran trailing behind and failing at engagements, with only stories of its former glory :(
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Agreeing with most people when I say...
Accel decrease is a good nerf. The health decrease... not so much.
There's a problem when my long range spire can destroy a metamidion in flame-range combat. All it took was a few decent artemis shots.
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When I woke up this morning and read the changes, I didn't laugh. I guffawed. This nerf to the pyramidion is hilarious.
As a someone concerned about ship balance this is of course terrible.
But omg the Pyra is now hilarious. Its a glass cannon! Unlike the Spire!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlNXZRuCx1w
This is me without the rage at the end.
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I have mixed feelings. I want sniping to be stronger and gat/mortar pyra to be less face roll ftw, but this seems...wrong. Am I the only one that thinks pyras need to be extremely tanky and healthy, and just go back to having really, REALLY shitting turning speed and acceleration? Anyone remember when you could circle strafe with a junker or squid around a pyra while they could do nothing, when their rear was actually a weakness? That junkers need less armor and more speed for being evasive? That spires need less health but a lot of armor, since they cannot be glass cannon with the game's direction? Seriously, once the spire is out there, it's out there, far range or near, it can't hide, it needs to be able to tank nearly like a galleon to be a good ship. Or that squids need to lose all that health, and gain a stupid amount of speed?
I don't think anyone wins with this patch, snipers or brawlers; except kinda Gilder.
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I have mixed feelings. I want sniping to be stronger and gat/mortar pyra to be less face roll ftw, but this seems...wrong. Am I the only one that thinks pyras need to be extremely tanky and healthy, and just go back to having really, REALLY shitting turning speed and acceleration? Anyone remember when you could circle strafe with a junker or squid around a pyra while they could do nothing, when their rear was actually a weakness? That junkers need less armor and more speed for being evasive? That spires need less health but a lot of armor, since they cannot be glass cannon with the game's direction? Seriously, once the spire is out there, it's out there, far range or near, it can't hide, it needs to be able to tank nearly like a galleon to be a good ship. Or that squids need to lose all that health, and gain a stupid amount of speed?
I don't think anyone wins with this patch, snipers or brawlers; except kinda Gilder.
I agree about Pyras needing more tank and less maneuver. Let the ship do what it was meant to do.
I disagree about spire needing Galleon tankiness. Have you seen some of those crazy quadfecta spire builds? Spire is a great glass cannon.
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Pyra should be the leader of the pack, taking the hits and throwing a punch back, but all that clunky metal armour slows its accel down, a lot.
That's what it should be...
Not a ship being outgunned by a gat banshee squid...
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Yup, we've found the worst ship in the game. It can't do anything well, every other one can, and already could
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I'll add this, Pyramidions aren't and weren't OP. Gat / Mortar combo was, I would've preferred a nerf to that
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R.I.P Fist of the Unicorns; You will be missed dearly.
Pyra is described as a Vanguard; Vanguards wind up, charge in, and dish out almost as many punches as they take, while the speedier longer ranged allies open up.
Imagine a pitched airship battle between 2 Mercenary Factions; The one has a line of Pyras slowly accelerating towards the enemy, spewing fiery death before smashing into the line of enemy Junkers, who were trying to distract them from the Spires behind; The first team's Galleon duo open up, wreaking havoc and raining flechette-and-high-explosive filled death.
PROBLEM: The Junkers simply kill them before they close, because they have that little health.
Also, every ship has something it's good at; Galleon is sheer firepower and tanking, Squid is speed, Junker is almost 360° coverage, and an agile jack-of-all-trades, Mobula has ridiculous verticality, Goldfish is one of the best support ships in the game, and is fast, Spire kills things REALLY DAMN FAST. Pyra... wallows through the air like a fat nerd, crumpling at the first sign of pain/damage while spewing verbal abuse from it's front.
What it should be is a ship that excels in heading straight for the enemy and giving them a little love-tap full of tanky-but-slow goodness to deal with while the Pyra's ally sneaks up/points guns...
As it stands, the Pyramidion is arguably the single worst ship in the game. Time to buck the norm, here:
PYRA UP; PLZ BUFF
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Hey Pyra captains...I tried. I kept arguing at them not to nerf the pyra like this. Also for the Squid to not get more HP buffs but to go to pure speed and agility.
Just times like this...so sick of this...
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/0b/0b1c1b037f327ac0fd5bb5f1adbd075c1d7726fdf77b8ca0df79af8d71b7e43c.jpg)
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BRING BACK CHARGING RHINO PYRA.
Low acceleration, More armor, more perma, high top speed. Let it whether a barrage to close the distance to an opponent.
I tried. the new pyra is pretty unplayable, expecially with the new minno.
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It was never overpowered, just easy to crew. The squid has always been a great ship, just more difficult to crew on; which is where a lot of the overpowered/under-powered discussions come from.
I'm not sure why the hull took a hit along with the speed. I think most of us would have wanted it's turning mobility reduced, as opposed to it's forward speed/acceleration. I honestly underestimated how much the hull HP reduction would effect it, since I'm used to everyone sticking with gat-mortars. But you don't even need gat-mortars against it.
Ultimately I think the Pyra can still be functional, it's just going to be a tough adjustment for players to change how they fly it. Previously you could charge in and have an easy time keeping enemies in arc and tank it out a bit. Now you can charge in, but you'll have a harder time adjusting to keep enemies in arc, and you can't be as balls to the wall as your armor is so much more important to maintain.
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Well dang, Pyramidion, Squid, and Spire are the three ships I fly and I just don't get any of these changes. I thought they were all balanced before, now it seems like Pyramidion is trash and Squid and Spire are way too durable for their supposed roles.
Squid's low armor is actually a boon coupled with its high speed. You only have a short time to fire on the hull before the armor comes back up since it takes so few spanner hits to repair. Now it has a gigantic pool of permahull too, in addition to being faster. I don't understand making it both faster and more durable.
The Spire change seems ok, but I feel like double or triple gatling Spires with heavy flak are too strong at close/medium ranges now. It can focus the most firepower of any ship in the game, and now has the health to rumble. I enjoyed Spire before because it required team coordination to protect it, but now it looks like it can just brawl by itself.
I don't understand the Pyramidion nerf at all. It seems like the problem was never its durability or speed, but its firepower. It's supposed to be at the front, taking the beatings right? Pyramidion is differentiated from the other ships by having high armor, but dying quickly if the armor goes down. That's fine, but it doesn't even have as much armor as Junker, and now they took away 150 health. It should have gotten some armor in return at least. If their problem was metamidions, then why not nerf the gatling, or greased ammo?
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I've been playing with the pyra a lot, post update. It's still (almost) the same ship it was before. You can't rush in headlong anymore the same why you used to be able to, but it's still a major threat. I think the nerf was unnecessary, but the ship is gonna keep on sailing
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Have to agree new pyramidion is hilarious.
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I've been playing with the pyra a lot, post update. It's still (almost) the same ship it was before. You can't rush in headlong anymore the same why you used to be able to, but it's still a major threat. I think the nerf was unnecessary, but the ship is gonna keep on sailing
Not the way it's supposed to, though.
It's JOB is to rush in headlong! Strategically, but still.
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Its a liability...no way in hell I'll fly a Pyra or fly with one.
Make charging ship into a tissue paper fighter yet make the traditional tissue paper fighter into a high speed tank. What I really want to know is...why is this still a thing? Why 2yrs later, we're still bitching about and fine tuning Pyras? The ship has been fine. It never needed all these nerfs. The other ships just needed to be fixed. But here we are constantly trying to make the Pyra weak enough. This is a lot of wasted dev time. With all this time, the other ships could have been fixed and buffed to counter Pyras better, like they used to be.
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My theory is that because Eric always struggled in the past with balancing gat/mortar, getting 'flak' for it, and then eventually just thinking it was so perfect, that he is way too scared to ever change it. He knows that it is the meta with a pyra, so he probably just thought it would be easier for him to change the pyra, then to mess with a meta he's 'tried' to balance.
He's been digging this weird trench for awhile. Why he doesn't realize the simple solution is turn the pyra back to being a tanky, slow to accelerate and turn ship to make it balanced (it should be like a charging bull, hard to stop once it's built up speed, hard to turn, but hits like a truck), I will never know. Or that a squid should rely on the old RPG thief concept of dodging and speed for the squid to survive. Or that a junker should never have been that tanky, but should also have a lot of speed to flirt in and out of arcs and combat (seriously, it's some wood, a tarp and scrap metal, it should be lighter and faster). And that a spire needs to be tankier in armor, not health, to be a gun platform. Just so much wrong with the current ships compared to their description and concept because he's been allowed free reign. Every ship is quickly becoming more like the other in stats, when they should be becoming more and more different for variety and meta variety.
Alas he has stubborn and confident as they come, and he will will never stop tweaking this game into weird and unnecessary directions.
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(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/59614548.jpg)
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I dont know... Why does a ship have to be charging from an expected angle and still be able to kill even with shortrange weapons?
Heck even soley use the front guns...
Its time to be sneaky and use all 4 guns. By that, perhaps for large maps youl want long range front. Or disabling front for short range and then side weapons gat mortar when you get close?
I do agree with the Tanky, but super slow to start and harder to turn pyra.
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I dont know... Why does a ship have to be charging from an expected angle and still be able to kill even with shortrange weapons?
Heck even soley use the front guns...
Its time to be sneaky and use all 4 guns. By that, perhaps for large maps youl want long range front. Or disabling front for short range and then side weapons gat mortar when you get close?
I do agree with the Tanky, but super slow to start and harder to turn pyra.
That's all good and well except to be sneaky means more effective engine power, which was nerfed too...
And the squids engine buff means the squid will be able to survive sneak attacks from pyramidions and turn guns into arc...
A pyra nerf was needed, but not the double nerf it was given...
Still hopefully tonight I can get my crew together and test pyramidion post nerf, but as it stands a squid will win 1v1 using gat banshee bi-fecter, because the pyra cant out tank the squid...
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Atleast you are gonna try.
These pyra nerfs are great but god damn it should make you play more into what it has.
Maybe now you would want to ram, and use impact bumpers if you are still afraid.
Maybe now you would want to have the side guns as close, and the front guns as disable for the approach.
And most definetly not loose momentum, but it still is a fast ship. Just doesnt react as quick as it did.
Its got the health of a junker now, and with less armor and easier to hit hull. But it is faster + can ram and has its baloon most protected, unlike the junker where baloon popping that can be a devestation for it.
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That's the issue with health on the pyra, it is a huge hunk of hull which is easy to hit, although an effective anti balloon defence, it has the weakness of a junker without the benefits of the junker...
The junker has weak perma hull, harder to hit hull, and a huge volume of armour...
The pyra was over-nerfed.. Even if only marginally it was nerfed enough to be too painful, especially considering the buffs spire and squid received...
As you said though, I'm still willing to try it, once I rally my crew. 8)
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I agree the double nerf was too much. I would've preferred a bigger maneuverability nerf to force reliance on momentum. Is the new acceleration noticeable?
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My theory is that because Eric always struggled in the past with balancing gat/mortar, getting 'flak' for it, and then eventually just thinking it was so perfect, that he is way too scared to ever change it. He knows that it is the meta with a pyra, so he probably just thought it would be easier for him to change the pyra, then to mess with a meta he's 'tried' to balance.
He's been digging this weird trench for awhile. Why he doesn't realize the simple solution is turn the pyra back to being a tanky, slow to accelerate and turn ship to make it balanced (it should be like a charging bull, hard to stop once it's built up speed, hard to turn, but hits like a truck), I will never know. Or that a squid should rely on the old RPG thief concept of dodging and speed for the squid to survive. Or that a junker should never have been that tanky, but should also have a lot of speed to flirt in and out of arcs and combat (seriously, it's some wood, a tarp and scrap metal, it should be lighter and faster). And that a spire needs to be tankier in armor, not health, to be a gun platform. Just so much wrong with the current ships compared to their description and concept because he's been allowed free reign. Every ship is quickly becoming more like the other in stats, when they should be becoming more and more different for variety and meta variety.
Alas he has stubborn and confident as they come, and he will will never stop tweaking this game into weird and unnecessary directions.
I cannot agree more than I do. Since I joined the game, which was around the time of the Mobula and Mine patch, every try to "balance" has gone into completely silly directions. I don't know how it was before, but as it is now, it really shouldn't be.
I almost feel inclined to write an email to Muse everday why a number of tries to "balance" ships are not as good as some more design fitting ones could have been and why they should change the stats or change the design to fit the stats, everyday with a different argument which could easily be a task for a month or two.
I mean, yeah, it is Muse's game, but who the hell wants a ship which design's just scream of inducing fear in whoever it is pointed at and than have it be as soft as a teddy bear? And why the hell is the Squid so healthy on health? When a Squid is battling something, it's like someone is trying to squash some kind of annoying fly, but the fly will tank so hard, they will need to squash it ten thousand more times in order to get rid of it.
Fun!
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Its time to be sneaky and use all 4 guns. By that, perhaps for large maps youl want long range front. Or disabling front for short range and then side weapons gat mortar when you get close?
I don't want to long range in a ship that is all hull and dies to a single buffed Lesmok Typhon round.
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If you want a tanky vanguard bring a spire. If you want a tanky charger bring a squid.
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If you want a tanky vanguard bring a spire. If you want a tanky charger bring a squid.
-Sammy B T
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Trust me, nobody here hates pyramidions more than me. They are the easiest ship in the game and public games are often flooded with them.
I also despise any ship with more than one foward-pointing gun, I feel it's a design that detracts from the more interesting aspect of the game and makes the firefights a lot more static and boring and less "ship like".
With that said... The Pyramidion now has basically half the hull points of a Squid.
There is something horribly wrong with this situation. It's counter-intuitive, not to mention against what little lore we have on the ships.
And from the balance standpoint, it's excessive.
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It's counter-intuitive, not to mention against what little lore we have on the ships.
And from the balance standpoint, it's excessive.
Yea. Yeshan ships are, as far as I can tell, more stable and sturdy than other ships. Their design, as well as their game play supports this theory. Galleon, Goldfish, and Pyramidion are three ships the doesn't feel like you are clinging to the riggings (Mobula is like sitting on a cloud). It's only right that the Pyramidion has some hull health.
And let's be honest, what ever the hull health of a ship is, one clip of greased mortar will wrap it up.
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Expanding on what Thomas has already said, what made the Pyra powerful and easy to crew was the fact that you can have perfect repair and chem coverage (IE, all* components can be on cooldown, always) while also having massive damage output (two light guns with fully overlapping arc plus rams) and without ever needing to take crew off guns to repair. No other ship can do that, so all the other ships require much more experienced crew to operate at full capacity. The nerfs didn't address any of that.
*Except for your rear flare but this is not important.
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I suppose to compensate the hull nerf in the mean time, one can order the buff engi to beef up the hull armor right before engagements.
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I suppose to compensate the hull nerf in the mean time, one can order the buff engi to beef up the hull armor right before engagements.
Then it becomes junker v2, hard armor but frailer than a squid once it hits 0. I mean, aside from the front guns when you look at pyramidion its very much the opposite of junker. More exposed hull, can charge back and forth, more viable when ramming, less viable when broadsiding. Why would you buff the hull now? Why would you even require a buff engi to run the ship right? Hell buffing the hull of a pyra before 1.4.0 would have brought you even better results. I dont use the pyra as much as I used to, but I dont want it to go down like this
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I speak from limited experience, but how about this- roll back 1.4.0 changes, but reduce turning acceleration or maximum rate? I like the idea of a tanky but slow-turning charger.
Also, making the main engine not repairable from the bottom would make the ship a little harder to crew, and make pilot's tools a bit harder to rely on. How does that sound?
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I speak from limited experience, but how about this- roll back 1.4.0 changes, but reduce turning acceleration or maximum rate? I like the idea of a tanky but slow-turning charger.
Also, making the main engine not repairable from the bottom would make the ship a little harder to crew, and make pilot's tools a bit harder to rely on. How does that sound?
I like the idea of reducing acceleration. Making the engine not repairable from the bottom would render the pyra nearly obsolete. It would be interesting but ultimately I feel that the 3 engine repair is essential.
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Also, making the main engine not repairable from the bottom would make the ship a little harder to crew, and make pilot's tools a bit harder to rely on. How does that sound?
Changing the ship layout, instead of changing numbers, is a good way to achieve balance.
I like the idea of main engine not being repairable from the bottom. But, that would be too big of a nerf. How about redesigning the back of the ship so that the engineer has to jump to reach that main engine? Nerf that ridiculous engine rebuild speed, while keeping the general repairs unchanged.
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I like hamsteriv's idea of splitting the main engine into 2, one repairable from below the other not.
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I like hamsteriv's idea of splitting the main engine into 2, one repairable from below the other not.
So MOAR Squid?
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I like hamsteriv's idea of splitting the main engine into 2, one repairable from below the other not.
So MOAR Squid?
The new pyra:
>4 engines
>still accels like a galleon
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Changing the design takes a lot longer than changing numbers. This is why Muse only changes numbers and doesn't even try bothering with design changes.
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Changing the design takes a lot longer than changing numbers. This is why Muse only changes numbers and doesn't even try bothering with design changes.
I've wondered a lot about "what if the only hope to make the pyra "less popular" was a redesign." Like you say, it's a lot of extra effort, and typically something I never suggest as a balance fix because of it. Food for though I suppose.
That said, I stand by my original post of keeping the speed nerf, and altering/reverting the hull nerf.
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I think moving the components of a ship around isn't that difficult. They've moved the balloon on the galleon and the hull/balloon on the spire. Engines are probably different of course, especially with the placement of the large center engine.
One of the the things that made the pyra so strong is how easy it is to divide up the crew to the different components. So moving the balloon and/or hull around to make things a little more challenging could be a way to 'nerf' the pyra without having the need to reduce acceleration and such. Moving the hull to the top of those rear stairs (probably not enough room) might spice things up; but not by much once people learned how not to get stuck on the stairs. Another location could be closer to the pilot at the front of the ship. Overall it's a surprisingly compact ship, hard to think of places to put things to make it more difficult. Although just making it impossible to hit that middle engine from underneath would certainly add more time to the main engineer cycle.
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#Thenerfcantbethatbad
#Stillthemostusedshipingame
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The ship layout is still what makes the pyramidion great. If so this nerf was fine. Everyone is still flying pyra's and the world will keep on turning.
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Only because the ship still gets flown doesn't mean the nerf was fine. Muse basically wanted to get people to not fly the Pyramidion, apparantly their mission failed.
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Only because the ship still gets flown doesn't mean the nerf was fine. Muse basically wanted to get people to not fly the Pyramidion, apparantly their mission failed.
We all know you think the pyramidion is 'weak' at the level you play at. But for the majority of the community this nerf seems perfectly justified.
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I think moving the components of a ship around isn't that difficult. They've moved the balloon on the galleon and the hull/balloon on the spire. Engines are probably different of course, especially with the placement of the large center engine.
But see the thing was...the Spire didn't need that. It wasn't what people were asking for. Honestly I like the original positions better. What people wanted was either quicker rebuilds or make the spire a little tankier. It was pleaded for awhile. Everyone was in agreement. Then Muse decided to do something no one asked for and still did not fix the core issues with the Spire.
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Only because the ship still gets flown doesn't mean the nerf was fine. Muse basically wanted to get people to not fly the Pyramidion, apparantly their mission failed.
We all know you think the pyramidion is 'weak' at the level you play at. But for the majority of the community this nerf seems perfectly justified.
I could argue that quite a number of players is probably not even aware of this nerf. Not everybody likes this game as we do and shows enough dedication to keep track of patch notes.
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Only because the ship still gets flown doesn't mean the nerf was fine. Muse basically wanted to get people to not fly the Pyramidion, apparantly their mission failed.
We all know you think the pyramidion is 'weak' at the level you play at. But for the majority of the community this nerf seems perfectly justified.
I could argue that quite a number of players is probably not even aware of this nerf. Not everybody likes this game as we do and shows enough dedication to keep track of patch notes.
Daniel is right, after patch
Random ally pilot: "Okay I'm taking Pyra, I'll charge and tank the enemy and you can hit them from range, be careful though, Spire is squishy!"
Me: "Oh you didn't see the patch notes for 1.4.0?"
Ally Pilot: "Er, what are they then?"
Pyramidion was the single most used ship by very many people and only a small minority check forums or patch notes.. So it is still the most used for a variety of reasons.
Though I admit it is not totally useless and can still put up a fight with the right build, the right build is no longer a charging meta. :)
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A charging metamidian is no longer a guarantied instant kill for most of the ships in the game. If not the perfect change, still a change for the better. Now to nerf the Squid hull back where it belongs.
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A charging metamidian is no longer a guarantied instant kill for most of the ships in the game. If not the perfect change, still a change for the better. Now to nerf the Squid hull back where it belongs.
Bingo, although maybe a bit over the top Nerf the good thing is muse are always looking at the balance of the game :)
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I'll agree with RearAdmiralZill on this one :)
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I thought the Pyra was perfect where it was, TBH... If you REALLY have to nerf it, nerf accel or turn, or hell, just make it heavier! Pyra is a VANGUARD. Vanguards charge in, rek things, and generally make themselves a MASSIVE NUISANCE- If used right. Used wrong, they blunder round sluggishly and fail.
Does that sound like current Pyra?
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It is too heavy already. I would personally cut its weight down quite a bit, give it higher speed, lower turning, and higher acceleration. It should not be a tank, however. Screw up your rush, and it should be punishing.
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Yeah, but they evidently want to nerf the Pyra, so making it heavier increases ram damage, but slows everything down.
I'm all for making it speedier, and agree a failed rush should punish... But ATM a failed rush buttrapes you instead of badly hurting you.
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I thought the Pyra was perfect where it was, TBH... If you REALLY have to nerf it, nerf accel or turn, or hell, just make it heavier! Pyra is a VANGUARD. Vanguards charge in, rek things, and generally make themselves a MASSIVE NUISANCE- If used right. Used wrong, they blunder round sluggishly and fail.
Does that sound like current Pyra?
It does if you use the correct loadouts this time around.
I strongly suggest having full on some kind disable front, ram and turn for killing side.
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I thought the Pyra was perfect where it was, TBH... If you REALLY have to nerf it, nerf accel or turn, or hell, just make it heavier! Pyra is a VANGUARD. Vanguards charge in, rek things, and generally make themselves a MASSIVE NUISANCE- If used right. Used wrong, they blunder round sluggishly and fail.
Does that sound like current Pyra?
Every ship reks if used right and fails when used wrong. Pyra still has same firepower and is still a threat, you just can't charge enemy face to face everytime anymore. As it should be. There is a reason why they nerfed pyra and that reason is because it was used way more than any other ship, which got to tell you something. It's not just that it was dominating in pubs, it was also extremely good in competitive. It wasn't a ship with best firepower or best durability or best mobility or anything, but it was good at everything and it was too easy to use making it the "safest" pick for most players. Only the most experienced teams learned how to deal with metamidions effectively.
You can still destroy ships very fast like before, you just have to be smart and fast enough to avoid armor break before their armor breaks.
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There is a reason why they nerfed pyra and that reason is because it was used way more than any other ship, which got to tell you something.
It wasn't used more than other ships, because it had so much hull health.
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There is a reason why they nerfed pyra and that reason is because it was used way more than any other ship, which got to tell you something.
It wasn't used more than other ships, because it had so much hull health.
Of course not, I didn't say that. Nerfing hull was Muse's idea of making pyra "balanced".
Like I said in my post, it has decent all around stats and it's easy to use, easy to manage for all crew members and thus makes it pretty much the safest pick a lot of times.
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Which one can translate to: The hull health nerf was kind of pointless, so why have it in the first place?
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Being in a team that often brings double Pyra, my experience is that we die a lot more. :'( Of cause, it wouldn't matter in a near-perfect engagement, but against a good team, how often does that happen?
The enemy knows that you will charge, they might get ambushed once, but that's about it. It is difficult to set up ambushes constantly the entire game.
I didn't like the nerf at first, but now I'm starting to agree with Mean Machine - it was too all rounded and became the "go-to" ship. If anything, I felt the nerf was most punishing to teams that bring double Pyra.
Muse did run the numbers and mention in fireside that the Pyra is the most used ship.
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Being in a team that often brings double Pyra, my experience is that we die a lot more. :'( Of cause, it wouldn't matter in a near-perfect engagement, but against a good team, how often does that happen?
The enemy knows that you will charge, they might get ambushed once, but that's about it. It is difficult to set up ambushes constantly the entire game.
I didn't like the nerf at first, but now I'm starting to agree with Mean Machine - it was too all rounded and became the "go-to" ship. If anything, I felt the nerf was most punishing to teams that bring double Pyra.
Muse did run the numbers and mention in fireside that the Pyra is the most used ship.
I think the exact number was "Pyra was used more than every other ship in the game, combined."
However I was to say, despite the Nerf, pyramidions are still putting up fights! :)
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Been a while since I posted on these forums -- been away from Guns for some time -- but from my understanding of awkm, he's always trying to open up the decision space and stifle dominant strategies. There will always be the meta but the harder that is to find, the better. I can't believe 'meta--yawn... sorry drifted off there-- midion' is still a thing after all this time.
What I've read on this thread is a lot of people saying the Pyra should be this, and the Pyra should be that. I personally don't think any ship should be pinned down to a particular strategy or way of playing. If nerfing the hull health makes a captain think twice before charging in, rather than it being expected, then I think that's a good thing. Charging should be something the entire crew should be notified of and be totally prepared for. That opens up other considerations too: perhaps those two front guns shouldn't be all killing power now? Perhaps they could be disablers to buy you time as you close the gap? Covering fire and even flanking is going to be a lot more important now as well.
I'm not saying that the nerf itself is good, or even needed, but I think the intention of breaking up the vanguard/ram mentality and keeping people engaged with the possibilities of the Pyra rather than the effectiveness of one or two strategies, is a good thing.
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Ideally all ships should have multiple options to adjust to and strategies they can employ.
The Pyra nerf effectively killed off a popular one. Heck I laughed as I watched a Pyra captain the other day ramming a galleon. He folded up like a classic squid and actually cost the match cause he wouldn't stop doing it. No way engineers could rebuild fast enough. If the ship is going to be so weak then the rebuild time needs to be adjusted, plain and simple.
Pyra basically has 3 main strategies. Kill build, disable build, range build. Then it has an assortment of mixed builds but lets face it, they aren't mainstream. The nerf effectively hurt both the kill and disable builds because they did involve charging and getting close.
Course Muse doesn't have to nerf ships to do damage like this. The squid took a good 50% hit on it's kill builds when they nerfed the light flak and added arming timers because some "delightful" misguided players wanted a viable 1000m range game and convinced Muse to do it. I said it back then, it would never be a meta and it was a stupid change. Still stand by that. There was nothing wrong with the LF before they did that. Adding the arming timer just turned it into a niche range gun and builds that employ it almost always rely on a ship to draw fire away so they can sit back and use it. It is also an "ideal" situation build. It sounds great on paper but in actual gameplay it can be beaten very easily.
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Despite the fact that Gilder is drifting off topic while apparantly forgetting that Rydr used to take double Pyramidion, Metamidion paired with a Hades/Light Flak and pretty much killed everything (yes, the Flak did a lot better than the Artemis in a whole lot of situations) and also apparantly forgetting that anything close range is also some kind of "ideal" situation build, because it has to get close first before doing any sort of damage and also apprantly ignoring the fact that the Light Flak inside arming time still does a considerable amount of damage and also apparantly being ignorant to the fact that he could just use a Banshee if he wanted an explosive gun in any range, without arming time and good arcs...
...I agree with the Pyramidion needing to be able to rebuild quicker. Before the nerf it already died in one clip of Mortar and Flak before the armor is rebuild, surviving anything now once the armor is destroyed is practically impossible. I also agree that the nerf hurt its most popular strategy, especially since the Pyramidion is one of three ships that novices are presented with and is the only one that can actually just move forward in a straight line and kill something.
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probably little bit more hp will fix the problem?
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probably little bit more hp will fix the problem?
wow how did we not think of that +salute for being a genius
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probably little bit more hp will fix the problem?
wow how did we not think of that +salute for being a genius
No need for personal jabs. Everyone has their own opinions.
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probably little bit more hp will fix the problem?
wow how did we not think of that +salute for being a genius
No need for personal jabs. Everyone has their own opinions.
It's just that more than a half of this thread has been about the effects of the health nerf and reverting it.
Besides, I gave her an actual salute.
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probably little bit more hp will fix the problem?
wow how did we not think of that +salute for being a genius
No need for personal jabs. Everyone has their own opinions.
It's just that more than a half of this thread has been about the effects of the health nerf and reverting it.
Besides, I gave her an actual salute.
Salutes or not are a moot point. Feel free to pm me if you wish to further discuss this.
Onward thread!
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The more I play with pyramidion the more I feel the health should actually stay the same.
It is encouraging people to use builds other than meta, more often Gatling Artemis, carro Gatling and carro Artemis is being used and less is the meta, the meta when used is normally in use along side a disable ship, encouraging team play and not just double kill ships.
So I'm starting to like the change.
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That was exactly my point Kamoba :)
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The more I play with pyramidion the more I feel the health should actually stay the same.
It is encouraging people to use builds other than meta, more often Gatling Artemis, carro Gatling and carro Artemis is being used and less is the meta, the meta when used is normally in use along side a disable ship, encouraging team play and not just double kill ships.
So I'm starting to like the change.
I understand that pyra is less of a lone wolf now , but one of it's main disadvantages is that you can have a shot at it's hull from literally any angle, unlike half the ships in the game. It's a flying hull wherever you look at it (pun intended) And it isnt very tanky in that matter already and is currently outclassed by junker on all aspects but top speed (Which can be partially countered by kerosene) and having to get in a broadside before firing the guns (The only relevant property)
But thinking back to Tanya's suggestion, we always used to claim Pyra had a "well rounded hull". Well, it has 500 now and that's 50 points lower than junker. So what if it was bumped up to 600, which also happens to be it's armor value? It'll be more well rounded than a .45 caliber round.
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Nerf pyra armour, buff perma hull. Tank, but still slow easy target.
And yes pyra is all hull, making it effective carronade counter
:)
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550 pyra, witch is 50 more than Junker...
Making it 600 anyway is not the armor. The armor is 600+buff+Mallet
You cant fix perma hull, only not let armor go too far down to it.
The pyra, can do dual carro front to hit and ram a junker without the baloon protecting the ram of it. Then change to side gun close range killers.
I mean why should the front be the only answer for a kill on a pyra? You need to actualy utilise all of it now.
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550 pyra, witch is 50 more than Junker...
Making it 600 anyway is not the armor. The armor is 600+buff+Mallet
You cant fix perma hull, only not let armor go too far down to it.
The pyra, can do dual carro front to hit and ram a junker without the baloon protecting the ram of it. Then change to side gun close range killers.
I mean why should the front be the only answer for a kill on a pyra? You need to actualy utilise all of it now.
You could do that before and after the nerf, it's just an alternative playstyle that noone uses and this nerf in no way encourages this.
The thing about exposing your side guns is, well. If you point your front at the enemy, you expose: Your two front guns and hull.
While if you turn the side, you expose: Main engine, left turning engine, both port side guns, a very large hull hitbox and most importantly, the balloon, the one thing pyra was supposed to counter actually has a chance against one as it carries this "sweet spot" at it's side. I mean sure, up close you may argue that it doesnt matter, but it does.If you make a surprise hydro to escape a gat mortar after your hull is down, they'll have a much harder time hitting you if you have your pointy front exposed, than a broadside bigger than a goldfish and less dangerous than a galleon. In nowadays meta play side guns only come into play when you're forced to your broadside or just wanna get a small trifecta in with the gat mortar, 4th slot isnt even worth gunning on because the ship already performs well without it, which is why the current meta has a flare on that slot.
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this patch was actually a triple nerf to the pyra; the mino is such an onvious hard counter to a charging pyra. adding the mino alone made a gat mort pyra practically useless already. this reminds me of when everyone said flame throwers were "OP" ages ago only because no one used heat sink. nothing can be "OP" when a direct counter exists.
perfect pyra nerd would have been nerf the turning speed slightly introduce Minotaur, problem solved.
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You could do that before and after the nerf, it's just an alternative playstyle that noone uses and this nerf in no way encourages this.
The thing about exposing your side guns is, well. If you point your front at the enemy, you expose: Your two front guns and hull.
While if you turn the side...
I know about the pyra. But taking and mustering up the damage may no longer be the ideal situation which people are bitching about.
So here is the alternative, disable the enemy when you go in. Use side guns for the kill.
Not. Use side guns. But, Use all guns. Heck maybe even flamer artemis combo side after dual carro front.
Dual merc front to make the enemy ship feel like hell even by far away, then gat mort for the kill after their armor got softened and you getting close enough.
Im giving this as an alternative because if the health nerf is such a big nerf, then perhaps think about what the enemy can do, instead of just jousting in.
If the pyra can still run in and kill with simply using the frontal guns just as effeciently, then i dont know why people are complaining.
Pyras could use all 4 in the way im suggesting before, but it was not as effecient because you just needed to get the front guns in.
Today, a spire will kill you in 1 hwacha barrage. He wont think about "Ruupairing" his hull when your charging him. He will take pyras armor down, at the time pyra takes spires armor, and one hwacha will kill the pyra, and only 2 mortars would come out of the pyra. If it is a worry that pyra now with this health, then disable front, side guns kill.
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I haven't flown a pyra in literally months, but I'm tempted to pick it up again and try that side gun idea Crafek keeps throwing out. Will report after testing with a good crew
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I haven't flown a pyra in literally months, but I'm tempted to pick it up again and try that side gun idea Crafek keeps throwing out. Will report after testing with a good crew
Might wanna try pub crews too, if it doesnt work with them then the pyra is officially a 2-star ship
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There are 7 ships in this game. At least people are using all of them now.
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There are 7 ships in this game. At least people are using all of them now.
Yes!
And if people take Pyra they're experimenting with new builds!
Yesterday I saw a pyra, gat carro front, Hades merc side, low levels too, and they ran the ship very effectively! Formidable foes, just a shame the pilot too moonshine impact bumpers and range finder, if he'd have taken claw, turned gat carro into arc more effectively, he would have had me pinned every time, unfortunately when I advised him in lobby to change load out, he pressed ready... (though he took claw after which was nice to see)