Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Puppy Fur on February 01, 2015, 12:36:37 pm

Title: Balloons with Health
Post by: Puppy Fur on February 01, 2015, 12:36:37 pm: I feel carronades are pretty dang powerful and balloons are pretty dang weak. I'm more interested in the balloon side of things though so here it goes.

Currently, balloons all have the same health. Doesn't matter what size or ship, it's the same number of hit points. This seems like it creates balance issues. It feels as if the meta currently is, choose a pyramidion or face balloon lock. Lumberjacks and Carronades have always been extremely effective against balloons and balloons have in turn been extremely slow to repair. I feel they should be scaled differently for each ship.

Galleons are built to be tough but their balloon health says otherwise. Mobulas balloons are also an issue. Two shots and you drop like a rock. Spire as well. These ships are seen less and less from what I can tell and I feel a buff to their balloon health would help this pain.

---

Well there is my opinion on balloons. More health for the ships that need it. If anyone has specific numbers they might think would work please post them. I'm no pro balance guy.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: DJ Logicalia on February 01, 2015, 12:46:06 pm: Especially if the gunner stamina system is going to be implemented in the game the same way it is in the Dev App. Balloons are going to need, like, 3x their current health just to stand up to Blenderfishes
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Kamoba on February 01, 2015, 01:19:31 pm: You forgot Junkers, they too are just big targets for blenders and LJs.
Although I like the balance of all balloons having the same health I feel it should be looked at a little bit more.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Caprontos on February 01, 2015, 01:36:04 pm: Do you raise rebuild time for balloons with more health so once broken you pay for it longer?
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Dementio on February 01, 2015, 01:49:00 pm: Does changing balloon health matter? I expect to see Balloon destruction in a maximum of 3 shots, if the first 2 are not enough...
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Puppy Fur on February 01, 2015, 04:38:08 pm: Quote from: Dementio on February 01, 2015, 01:49:00 pm
Does changing balloon health matter? I expect to see Balloon destruction in a maximum of 3 shots, if the first 2 are not enough...

3 shots would mean a reload instead of no reload for the heavy carronade which I think would have an impact.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Dementio on February 01, 2015, 06:07:35 pm: Yeah, it would be slower to destroy balloon, which I think is one of the few reasons why Blenderfish is so much more popular compared to other balloon popping builds.
I mean, you can say that slower balloon destruction "balances" it out, but at the same time, pretty much every other gun has the potential to one clip anything (gat one clipping armor) so the Carronade would actually be rather weak when having to reload before destroying the thing it was supposed to be able to destroy.

Maybe different balloon healths do make it better, but I actually can't see how it can be done with the heavy carronade without making it just too weak against certain ships whereas it stays as good or too good against the rest of them.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Crafeksterty on February 01, 2015, 08:23:23 pm: Keeping same baloon health through all ships is more balance friendly than changint them based on ships.

Perhaps making all damage versus baloon 50% worse, decrease baloon health by 50%, decrease rebuild by 25%.

That way you have an easier baloon to repair and rebuild while all damage is still the same, its just alot more rewarding to rebuild and repair the baloon.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Hilary Briss on February 01, 2015, 11:02:23 pm: Balloons so fast to destroy so long to rebuild.

The Stamina race begins after the first shot.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Zirilfer on February 02, 2015, 12:23:31 am: I've thought about this a fair bit, and I personally think the balloon damage and health are in a very good spot. What I would like to see is a buff to drogue chute. As it stands drogue chute only lasts 2s after deactivation/leaving helm, and the resistance it provides against falling could be a bit better. Because the balloon is near the pilot on the most poppable ships (Junker and Galleon), something like say 6s after deactivation and 30%ish more vertical drag than it already provides could be enough for superior firepower to gain an advantage against blenders, without simply making blenders completely worthless.

There is also some utility for goldfish, spire and mobula. Goldfish has somewhat accessible hull and balloon, Spire has accessible hull and guns, and mobula falling slower would always help.

TL;DR: Buff drogue chute so captains can use their repair power while also having the benefits of drogue chute.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Inkjet on February 02, 2015, 02:41:23 am: As the balloon rebuild time does increase with health, the only way I could see it working would be to do something like splitting the Galleon's balloon into two, with a separate repair point (maybe back upstairs in the hard to reach location :P). With two points, one can be rebuilt just as quickly (or faster if the health of each is less than the current total of one) to arrest descent, but full vertical mobility wouldn't be regained until both balloons were repaired. A side affect of this might be that both Galleon balloons could be buffed, which might also prevent it from being a viable option.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: GeoRmr on February 02, 2015, 06:54:11 am: *sigh* I'll say it again loah.

Reduce the damage modifier for balloons, reduce balloon health to scale. (yes this also scales with the helm tools which deal flechette damage)
Balloons break in the same number of shots but can be rebuilt and repaired to full health/functionality faster.

I heard you think that carronades are weak and need a buff, lets add stamina so they can now shoot down!
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: michael.hauda on February 04, 2015, 08:25:17 am: Quote from: GeoRmr on February 02, 2015, 06:54:11 am
*sigh* I'll say it again loah.

Reduce the damage modifier for balloons, reduce balloon health to scale. (yes this also scales with the helm tools which deal flechette damage)
Balloons break in the same number of shots but can be rebuilt and repaired to full health/functionality faster.

I heard you think that carronades are weak and need a buff, lets add stamina so they can now shoot down!
Everything Geo said
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Puppy Fur on February 04, 2015, 09:31:56 pm: Well, I see we are all in agreement. lol

Maybe the rebuild time could be helped instead? I feel the current balance is wrong no matter which way it's looked at though.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 04, 2015, 10:40:56 pm: Lower damage multiplier, lower health for same balloon break ratio, faster rebuild based on health, and perhaps faster falling might be an interesting combination.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Inkjet on February 06, 2015, 02:22:11 pm: Quote from: GeoRmr on February 02, 2015, 06:54:11 am
Reduce the damage modifier for balloons, reduce balloon health to scale. (yes this also scales with the helm tools which deal flechette damage)
Balloons break in the same number of shots but can be rebuilt and repaired to full health/functionality faster.

As a solid example, you could set balloon health to 595, and reduce Fletchette and Fire damage multipliers vs Balloon to .75, to maintain a similar ratio of damage-to-health. At this amount, the Barking Dog, Hellhound, and Lumberjack would still be able to destroy a balloon in 5, 2, and 3 unbuffed shots of standard ammo, respectively, balloons will have 75% health upon rebuild, and balloons could be rebuilt in (I think) 6 spanner hits, or ~4.2s instead of ~7s. Other multipliers vs Balloon would need to be reduced by ~50% as well to maintain balance.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on February 09, 2015, 12:01:23 am: This has been mentioned before. Think overall everyone was in favor of a change to balloons.

I'd like it as it seems rather stupid to me to have both big and small balloons so easily mastered by one gun. Also am sick of the blender meta. Its just as boring as the merc/art meta, only it just gets over with faster.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Dementio on February 09, 2015, 04:17:47 am: Quote from: Gilder Unfettered on February 09, 2015, 12:01:23 am
Also am sick of the blender meta. Its just as boring as the merc/art meta, only it just gets over with faster.

So you would rather render it completely useless? Because that is what is going to be if it can't destroy balloons quick enough.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on February 09, 2015, 05:58:25 am: Not completely useless, I just want to see vessels have options. Its boring seeing blenders go in and the fight decided quickly. Blending happens, ship disabled and generally unable to recover. No chance for any creative moves by pilots. If they do it, vet gunners know to use the blender to shoot out the guns so there is no way a kill ship can recover. I've seen that too many times. You see a possible comeback happening, then boom, gun out, then between the time it takes to rebuild + balloon rebuild it becomes a never ending losing battle.

Blenders being able to just sit on someone and grind them down with little effort does not show any skill. If anything, making it a little harder for blenders to cut through some balloons would give kill boats a chance to counter and recover. The blender couldn't just sit there doing the same thing over and over.

I don't get how folks can stand flying blenders all the time. Its depressing. Just sitting on top of enemies, blending, flaming...doing nothing. Its the faceroll build of GOIO. There is no skill or visible talent in it. A competitive meta built around blending and flaming is so sad. Back when both kill builds and disable builds were more even and the game was fast, there was always about a dozen different ways to approach each engagement. No meta was safe.

This is just the results of all the meta whining and a bogged down slow game. Its refreshing flying the dev app and meeting so many like minded people again. Stamina is indeed a bandaid but the core issues won't go away.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: c-ponter on February 09, 2015, 06:45:58 am: I may have misunderstood slightly, but what your saying there is that a blender can just grind and there is no way to come back.
There are several reasons I do not agree with this
1: most good gunners know when facing a blender the main priority is to disable the Carro, from that point on it is easy to gain and hold the upper hand.
2: yes, once you are grounding out and have been disabled it is extremely hard to come back, the easiest solution to this is simple, don't. Just tank, save every single bit of permahull HP possible, and wait. Blender s are a kill, but a very slow one, the kill depends on your teammate winning against the other ship, if the teammate of the ship grounding out wins, or ignores the other ship to focus the blender it's entirely possible to come back. It just needs slightly more teamwork to counter than most other builds imo
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Dementio on February 09, 2015, 12:44:17 pm: It is actually rather easy to win against a Blenderfish at least, its Carronade cannot aim as far down as some other guns can aim upwards (Gatling). In a head to head battle of Blenderfish vs Metamidion both have a chance to win, also Metamidion can bring drouge chute to stay in the air long enough to scare of the Fish with its Gatling.
No creative moves? Maybe not, but logical ones are entire possible: The enemy Blender has to stay above you and use physical contact to do some serious perma hull damage, if you are not already grinding on the ground you can easily still move pretty much anywhere and around anywhere, the Blender might be slower or has to turn around giving you more time to recover. Through this it is also possible to go below the Blender and support the ally if he is fighting on that altitude. Blenders vs Galleons are slightly in-effective when the Galleon bring a Lumberjack and a Hades since both guns will have arc unless it drops behind something.

Blenders are just as punishing as, say killships: If you let them get the upper hand, they will keep the upper hand. It's like staying static in mid-air and letting yourself be killed by hades/double artemis.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Kamoba on February 09, 2015, 12:50:40 pm: This I why I find gatling/Hades with Artemis such a versatile build.. I know I say it a lot but a good Artemis gunner can keep the meta disabled while the gat or Hades chips away at the enemy.
Same on Blenders, and the front gun is a nice easy target for just two Artemis shots.

However you put Princess Tutu on that carro and he will disable the Artemis first knowing he wants to keep his gun...*Shakes fist at Tutu* 8)
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Thomas on February 09, 2015, 03:05:01 pm: I could have sworn I've talked about this before, but I can't seem to find it. Pretty much the exact same thoughts as Geo, reduce the multiplier and balloon health to compensate. Balloons get destroyed just as fast, but can be rebuilt and repaired faster.

Currently your balloon gets popped and takes a while to rebuild. During this time your ship is at a constant disadvantage from the falling and having your balloon count as hull. Once it's rebuilt and smacked with a mallet, you're only at 50% or so balloon HP and therefore 50% balloon effectiveness. This makes it harder to recover, and oh so very easy to pop your balloon again.

There's some good ways to fight a blender-fish. Usually just DPS them when they're in arc and chase them off long enough to recover. Some ships can't quite do this because their balloon is too high up on the ship, and/or their guns are too low.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on February 09, 2015, 07:34:27 pm: Change in rebuild time would go a long way to fixing.

You all talk of counters to blenders which are pretty well known but you are counting on best case scenarios where a blender just sits there and lets you counter them. Competitive play rarely goes how you want it and if you know how to counter, they know how to counter in return. I've seen it too often. Ship being blended tries to move to get gun arcs, blender compensates and prevents blended vessel from countering. Frankly because its too easy to counter a counter. Specially with fast goldfish. Mostly because ships are too damn slow to do anything against a fish that has a vessel locked down. This then relies completely on an ally being free to save the blended vessel. Another reason why 3v3 has better gameplay. 2v2 is predictable and boring.

Frankly, we had better gameplay when the Carro could shoot down because back then ships were faster and arcs were better overall. Don't dare do it now. Hell I've been in many engagements where the blender didn't have to move far away to be able to angle down enough to hit the balloon every time. It isn't a perfect flat arc that prevents downward aiming. You can, with good positioning, hit downward targets very effectively.

Moving to counter often means the fish goes to side guns which are either flames or gats. They'll just keep circling and switching back and forth between carro and sides. So you say, shoot out the carro! I say...whenever is the carro going to be in arc or sitting still long enough to shoot it out? Competitive pilots will not sit there in front of a gun and let you shoot it out. Nor will they let you attempt to counter. If you fly a Pyra, you're too slow to turn or move to do this. Junker, you're constantly falling because the balloon is a huge liability. Galleon, same. In fact the blender can just sit up high forever on a galleon and never come anywhere near the guns. Squid can manage a counter however often times the blender gunner shoots out engines while blending. Its a smart move, it just means the squid might as well suicide as they'll never recover.

Using pub game reasoning for keeping things as are? Thats just great. You pick the LCD of player to base counters off of and even then they'll not have the experience to be able to pull it off. Argument is invalid. The balloon system needs to change. If you want noobs to stay, blender buffing is not it. There are two types of matches which make noobs rage quit the most on. Munker fights and blender/flamer fights. Noobs hate the feeling of helplessness and outside of being bounced around with mines, blenders do that the most.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Omniraptor on February 09, 2015, 08:20:02 pm: I say nerf the carronade's downward arc more and keep nerfing until complaints stop.

Alternate idea: heavy clip loses flechette damage, does only shatter.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 10, 2015, 02:23:13 am: That would make sense, given that heavy clip is basically firing a slug instead of shrapnel.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Gambrill on February 10, 2015, 03:24:18 am: I saw an earlier post talking about that they are worried that the carronade would be less effective against certain ships more than others if we buffed the health.

But i gotta admit doesn't that sounds good in a way? You can't prepare for every situation in real life so why in GoIo. It might stop the whole gat + mortar combo if some ships were more resilient to Armour Penetrating weaponry, or others being more resilient to Explosive weaponry, Obviously this could be offset with a weakness too to certain types too.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Omniraptor on February 10, 2015, 04:42:37 am: but some ships (junker) already ARE more resistant to armor penetrating weaponry.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Gambrill on February 10, 2015, 04:50:07 am: Quote from: Omniraptor on February 10, 2015, 04:42:37 am
but some ships (junker) already ARE more resistant to armor penetrating weaponry.

As in the modifiers were actually changed or just because of its shape its easier to hit the balloon rather than the hull?
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 10, 2015, 07:26:17 am: The junker has a small hull that can be shielded by the balloon. It also has the second highest armor rating. The crew positions allow it to be rebuilt by all 3 if necessary.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Ayetach on February 13, 2015, 06:19:39 am: I agree with your ideas puppy fur, having variation in balloon durability would definately be a game changer and would remove the flechette weapons like carronades from being the catch all for engagements.

But i also agree with Geo in scaling the repairability of the balloons respectively.
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: Puppy Fur on February 13, 2015, 02:48:37 pm: Quote from: Ayetach on February 13, 2015, 06:19:39 am
I agree with your ideas puppy fur, having variation in balloon durability would definately be a game changer and would remove the flechette weapons like carronades from being the catch all for engagements.

But i also agree with Geo in scaling the repairability of the balloons respectively.

Seems fair. :)
Title: Re: Balloons with Health
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 14, 2015, 09:12:55 am: Here's what I like:

Decrease rebuild speed. Or

Buff drogue chute but keep the effects on thrust. Make hydro + drogue a solid counter to being popped at the expense of maneuverability. The pilot has to give up a tool but gains a defense. This is what I'd most like to see. It would force carronades to close distance fast.

There's still the problem with your balloon breaking immediately after being rebuilt. I was thinking there could be an inflating effect upon rebuild that lasts for 3 or so seconds regardless if it immediately breaks. Or an effect on rebuild that provides an effective boost to lift for about a second.