Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => The Classroom => Q&A => Topic started by: Agent Of Change on December 08, 2014, 02:15:31 pm
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Ok so I am brand new to this forum and the game (only playing for about a week now) and my Clan has jumped in enmasse so we've been playing with different strategies and builds as n00bs are wont to do. Now in case this has been discussed before I did a couple quick searches to see if this had come up and didn't find anything so i apologize if I'm duplicating something.
What I wanted to ask about/comment on was what we have come to call the Gunmander postion. I would be shocked into a heart attack if we were the first to experiment with the pilot NOT being the captain, but as i said I didn't see it mentioned in my quick searches.
The Gunmander: A Primary Gunner who acts in all cases as the captain, directing the ship, selecting the targets and coordinating with friendly captains in addition to manning the guns.
We have discovered on smaller or more open ships (Goldfish, junker, and squid so far) Having the Gunner call the shots works very well. It requires good communication with your pilot and a good amount of chemistry with your crew (as does pretty much any effective crew really) but it has allowed us to be quite successful in our own estimation early on and certainly no worse off than other ships with pilots as their captain.
The pitfalls we've seen have mostly been in properly relaying friendly ship communication and miscommunication/misunderstandings on deck but those are getting less and less frequent with practice.
I'm curious if other folks have experimented with this? If you have other ships it might work/not work on? If you have played around with other roles as captain?
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Hard but true thing ... No.
The one who makes the first move/decision is the pilot thus it makes most sense to have him actually deciding what to do. Its his job to watch the map and know what the enemy does. As engineer youre to busy repairing and as gunner you should also observe whats happening on your ship.
The pilot has to keep the terrain in mind and know where his ally and the enemy is and how they are positioned.
It doesnt make sense to have the gunner give the call to burn hydro to stay alive when its the pilot who will most likely observe the situation first and who should realize the hp and armor of his ship.
If the gunner is the one making the call you just prolong the decision which is pretty bad when youre fighting kill builds which can kill you in a matter of seconds.
He is also the one with the easiest communication with his allied ship. Youre fighting with 2 ships on each side. Not 1.
On your current lvl it might work out that way but as soon as people get more experienced you will suffer as the prolonged decision is all what a decent opponent needs to kill you.
It doesnt mean that you can mix things up but in the end its the pilot who does the move and not the gunner.
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It is possible to boss people about from any position on the ship. There have been times when flying with an all noob crew that I have directed the ship from the position of main engineer, telling the captain which direction to turn and what throttle setting he should be at. If the person who is flying the ship is OK with another player usurping their authority the more power to you.
By convention pubic games have the person in the Commander slot be a pilot and be in charge of the ship. If you are with your clan you can fly however you like. I remember flying with Charon and Sushi (two of the founders of the ducks) where Charon would gun and Sushi would fly. Caron would take the captain slot because he has a much more commanding presence on the mic, and direct the team and ship from the nose gun of a goldfish.
Pilot captains tend to be the norm because the pilot has more time to look around and asses the over all situation. This includes what the other ships are doing and if there are any crewmen out of place. Gunners tend to suffer tunnel vision when there is a hard to hit target, and engineers are too busy with their Parkour when things get hot. While this Gunmander is not a horrible idea I don't think you have stumbled upon the new meta.
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I suspect that that might become a barrier.
We tried it as an experiment and were surprised at how well it did work. It's actually been an interesting partnership between the gunner and the captain when we run that. I suspect it might work to better or worse degrees depending on the people involved as well.
The way it's been mostly working is that the Gunmander doesn't dictate how the flying is done just what he needs for guns and the larger strategic picture, the pilot provides information, and directs the engineers where necessary. That might create some lag, as for inter ship communication we just drop the gunner into the captain slot and let him speak to the other ships and go from there.
I can see where that might create lag or delay against 'kill builds' but it'll be interesting to see how far this can take us I suppose.
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It is possible to boss people about from any position on the ship. There have been times when flying with an all noob crew that I have directed the ship from the position of main engineer, telling the captain which direction to turn and what throttle setting he should be at. If the person who is flying the ship is OK with another player usurping their authority the more power to you.
By convention pubic games have the person in the Commander slot be a pilot and be in charge of the ship. If you are with your clan you can fly however you like. I remember flying with Charon and Sushi (two of the founders of the ducks) where Charon would gun and Sushi would fly. Caron would take the captain slot because he has a much more commanding presence on the mic, and direct the team and ship from the nose gun of a goldfish.
Pilot captains tend to be the norm because the pilot has more time to look around and asses the over all situation. This includes what the other ships are doing and if there are any crewmen out of place. Gunners tend to suffer tunnel vision when there is a hard to hit target, and engineers are too busy with their Parkour when things get hot. While this Gunmander is not a horrible idea I don't think you have stumbled upon the new meta.
Thanks for the feed back. We don't really PUG at all there are enough of us that that will rarely be an issue for now but I see what you are saying. your example is exactly the situation that led me to try this, my pilot wanted to fly but nothing else and I'm the groups founder so people tend to listen to me anyway so it made sense to see if it would work. And on a goldfish too no less. :)
Your points are well taken though and definitely things to consider. I appreciate the feedback. I'm not looking to create a new meta, just figure out what works first... then we'll figure out the new meta. :)
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If everyone is on teamspeak together, i.e. the other ship can hear you, you can do perfectly well with a bossy gunner, and less well with a bossy engineer because engineers can't look around much in combat. If the other ship can't hear you (pub game) captain should always be on helm, to coordinate quickly and efficiently with ally ship. If you have a captain directing the action, you clutter up the radio channel because captain is talking to pilot, while also talking to other captains. It's one more unnecessary thread of conversation you could do better without, especially at a time when everyone is screaming for help on engines/balloon/whatever.
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Gunmander?
*mustache* o7
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does it burn good?
it sounds delicious.
but yus the vet have a valid point. Whenever I face this "gumander", I notice the slow reaction and take full advantage. Especially if its a low level player who is easily panicked by multiple part breaks.
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Gunmander works well on Flakfish and Lumberfish.
I've faced a fair few, and I've flown on it once (as an Engineer). Gunmander on Flakfish and Lumberfish is usually a sharpshooter who are confident in his/her skills.
He/she constantly communicates with the pilot to line up perfect shots. Engineers are usually set to the side, either told to buff engine/balloon or "get off the gun b*tch".
But I think Gunmander only works on a long-range ships. In short-range combat, the pilot, who has the superior vision, needs to call the shots.
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does it burn good?
it sounds delicious.
but yus the vet have a valid point. Whenever I face this "gumander", I notice the slow reaction and take full advantage. Especially if its a low level player who is easily panicked by multiple part breaks.
Further practice has ensued and we are seeing a little of this when we shuffle crews as folks get used to the new arrangement. I think upon further reflection it's definitely less of a traditional setup and as everyone starts to get a little better at their roles this set up works a little better. The Pilot is given lots of latitude and the Gunner is largely responsible for dictating desired target and range.
Gunmander works well on Flakfish and Lumberfish.
I've faced a fair few, and I've flown on it once (as an Engineer). Gunmander on Flakfish and Lumberfish is usually a sharpshooter who are confident in his/her skills.
He/she constantly communicates with the pilot to line up perfect shots. Engineers are usually set to the side, either told to buff engine/balloon or "get off the gun b*tch".
But I think Gunmander only works on a long-range ships. In short-range combat, the pilot, who has the superior vision, needs to call the shots.
I'm not familiar with the Flakfish or Lumberfish but I'm inclined to agree with you on the ranged part of it. What has started to happen organically is we are handing off command of the ship as needed between gunner and pilot basically along the lines of whether shooting or maneuvering is more important at the time. We are just starting to poke our heads into the public queue last night and we did pretty well 1 loss 3 wins using this setup and good coordination with our sister ship.
I would like to take it out to range to see if that works a little better.
Further addressing those who are saying there is a problem with communication lag, you are likely right we see it a little already but I think there are lessons to be learned. I'm going to use this thread to discuss this as we go forward and out line our successes and failures with this for the benefit of any one else who might want to try it.
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Dont consider Flakfishs.
They arent viable.
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Dont consider Flakfishs.
They arent viable.
At which point does something become 'viable'? Does it need to be able to 1v1? Does it need to be one of the strongest meta builds?
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Yes viable for me means that it can effectivly 1v1.
A flakfish cant do this. On long ranges you suffer armorshred so you cant kill an enemy that isnt sitting still for several minutes and doesnt repair his armor at all.
At closeranges the arming time doesnt allow the flakfish to do a reasonable amount of permahull dmg.
Why I say a ship has to 1v1?
Cause it takes no time to either disable your allow or kill him before you can react. A hwachabarrages disables a whole ship which stops your ally from supporting you. This means you are left alone where I already explained why you cant do anything there.
Or a standard gat mortar kills your ally before you can actually help him leaving you with another 1v1 where youre unable to fight back.
The whole idea on disable and kill builds is to take one enemy out of the engagement and then killing his ally. Any other goldfish builds is able to disable the enemy. Even if I agree that a lumberfish suffers a bid on closeranges.
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If fun is what you want, FlakFish and double merc pyra is viable.
But in all other terms- this is not viable one bit.
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If fun is what you want, FlakFish and double merc pyra is viable.
But in all other terms- this is not viable one bit.
Its viable against double galleon.
Wait, is double galleon viable?
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If fun is what you want, FlakFish and double merc pyra is viable.
But in all other terms- this is not viable one bit.
Its viable against double galleon.
Wait, is double galleon viable?
Well they can 1v1 i suppose...
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More than a flakfish. Double Galleon got another problem but just from the definition they are able to actually 1v1 someone.
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So what i'm getting is that a Flakfish can be fun, mostly for support if used, viable for a gunmander BUT not recommended due to weakness up close and the inability to 1v1 well.
That's some good info as we toy around with stuff.
Now we've been doing this well with a junker as well so far, But I suspect the Squid Might just be a good ship to try this with given the location of the helm.
Any thoughts on potentially Gunmandering a squid? builds, thoughts? I know that you may not think it's a great idea but just humor me here and brain storm what 'might' work.
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So what i'm getting is that a Flakfish can be fun, mostly for support if used, viable for a gunmander BUT not recommended due to weakness up close and the inability to 1v1 well.
That's some good info as we toy around with stuff.
Now we've been doing this well with a junker as well so far, But I suspect the Squid Might just be a good ship to try this with given the location of the helm.
Any thoughts on potentially Gunmandering a squid? builds, thoughts? I know that you may not think it's a great idea but just humor me here and brain storm what 'might' work.
Generally, you don't want a gunner on a squid at all. Almost everyone runs triple engi squid, because A) A you don't need that many ammo types and B) sooooooo many things to repair and buff. Having two buff engis and a standard engi makes for a happy squid. In terms of the whole "gunmander", I can't think of a single scenario where it would be more efficient to have a gunner in charge than a pilot. It might be fun, for sure! A nice change to the normal gameplay, but less efficient, to be sure
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Generally, you don't want a gunner on a squid at all. Almost everyone runs triple engi squid, because A) A you don't need that many ammo types and B) sooooooo many things to repair and buff. Having two buff engis and a standard engi makes for a happy squid. In terms of the whole "gunmander", I can't think of a single scenario where it would be more efficient to have a gunner in charge than a pilot. It might be fun, for sure! A nice change to the normal gameplay, but less efficient, to be sure
I take your point, I've only been on a squid twice, but thinking about it in that light I think you are right. Ok on to finding other approaches for the squid.
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So what i'm getting is that a Flakfish can be fun, mostly for support if used, viable for a gunmander BUT not recommended due to weakness up close and the inability to 1v1 well.
That's some good info as we toy around with stuff.
Now we've been doing this well with a junker as well so far, But I suspect the Squid Might just be a good ship to try this with given the location of the helm.
Any thoughts on potentially Gunmandering a squid? builds, thoughts? I know that you may not think it's a great idea but just humor me here and brain storm what 'might' work.
Generally, you don't want a gunner on a squid at all. Almost everyone runs triple engi squid, because A) A you don't need that many ammo types and B) sooooooo many things to repair and buff. Having two buff engis and a standard engi makes for a happy squid. In terms of the whole "gunmander", I can't think of a single scenario where it would be more efficient to have a gunner in charge than a pilot. It might be fun, for sure! A nice change to the normal gameplay, but less efficient, to be sure
Depending on the build yes you do need that many ammo types, and yes you should have a gunner on a squid. for example front flamer aft mines, or squid builds that use a front hades (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjIZpRuhJmo)
"I can't think of a single scenario where it would be more efficient to have a gunner in charge"
1. When flying with newbie pilots who are less experienced than the gunner.
2. When the gunner has LOS on an unspotted and unspottable enemy and the pilot does not (happens all the freaking time on mobulas and galleons).
3. When the gunner has LOS on an unspotted and unspottable enemy ship and the ally ships pilot does not.
4. When the gunner can confirm disables on enemy ships and order a safe change of focus fire when the captains are preoccupied with positioning.
5. To instruct the pilot of difficult gun arcs on exotic builds.
6. To instruct engineers who are not looking at the enemy safe opportunities to shoot when the pilot is preoccupied with positioning.
"A nice change to the normal gameplay"
Backseat instruction to the pilots doesn't really change anything.
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So what i'm getting is that a Flakfish can be fun, mostly for support if used, viable for a gunmander BUT not recommended due to weakness up close and the inability to 1v1 well.
That's some good info as we toy around with stuff.
Now we've been doing this well with a junker as well so far, But I suspect the Squid Might just be a good ship to try this with given the location of the helm.
Any thoughts on potentially Gunmandering a squid? builds, thoughts? I know that you may not think it's a great idea but just humor me here and brain storm what 'might' work.
Generally, you don't want a gunner on a squid at all. Almost everyone runs triple engi squid, because A) A you don't need that many ammo types and B) sooooooo many things to repair and buff. Having two buff engis and a standard engi makes for a happy squid. In terms of the whole "gunmander", I can't think of a single scenario where it would be more efficient to have a gunner in charge than a pilot. It might be fun, for sure! A nice change to the normal gameplay, but less efficient, to be sure
Depending on the build yes you do need that many ammo types, and yes you should have a gunner on a squid. for example front flamer aft mines, or squid builds that use a front hades (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjIZpRuhJmo)
"I can't think of a single scenario where it would be more efficient to have a gunner in charge"
1. When flying with newbie pilots who are less experienced than the gunner.
2. When the gunner has LOS on an unspotted and unspottable enemy and the pilot does not (happens all the freaking time on mobulas and galleons).
3. When the gunner has LOS on an unspotted and unspottable enemy ship and the ally ships pilot does not.
4. When the gunner can confirm disables on enemy ships and order a safe change of focus fire when the captains are preoccupied with positioning.
5. To instruct the pilot of difficult gun arcs on exotic builds.
6. To instruct engineers who are not looking at the enemy safe opportunities to shoot when the pilot is preoccupied with positioning.
Gunners are doing all of that already and they are not concidered to be "in charge". That's normal for a gunner to inform captain of enemy position if captain can't see it for example. Or that guns are not in arcs.
I agree with Logicallia there, I can't see any situation where gunner calling the shots would be better idea than captain doing it. Captain usually have better view of the ship and its surroundings. Gunners spend a lot of time on gun shooting, reloading etc., so they are not aware of what exactly is happening on the ship, not as much as pilot. Pilot can keep track of where enemy is, what his gunner is shooting, what engineers are doing and more with no problem. Pilot is the one who knows what he wants to do in particular situation and therefore can react fastest. If you wait for gunner to tell you what to do, you're wasting a lot of time that could be crucial for survival. Plus where is fun in piloting if all you do is waiti on gunne to tell you how to pilot your ship and when to turn?
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Oh i didn't reallise this was a -
press W for 2 seconds
tap hydrogen for 1 second
look left with the mouse
press F twice press 1 once and then hold D for 5 seconds before pressing 0 and then R twice
wipe your arse from front to back not back to front
- type deal about gunners being in charge.
My first point still stands though.
1. When flying with newbie pilots who are less experienced than the gunner.
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Depending on the build yes you do need that many ammo types, and yes you should have a gunner on a squid. for example front flamer aft mines, or squid builds that use a front hades (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjIZpRuhJmo)
"I can't think of a single scenario where it would be more efficient to have a gunner in charge"
1. When flying with newbie pilots who are less experienced than the gunner.
2. When the gunner has LOS on an unspotted and unspottable enemy and the pilot does not (happens all the freaking time on mobulas and galleons).
3. When the gunner has LOS on an unspotted and unspottable enemy ship and the ally ships pilot does not.
4. When the gunner can confirm disables on enemy ships and order a safe change of focus fire when the captains are preoccupied with positioning.
5. To instruct the pilot of difficult gun arcs on exotic builds.
6. To instruct engineers who are not looking at the enemy safe opportunities to shoot when the pilot is preoccupied with positioning.
"A nice change to the normal gameplay"
Backseat instruction to the pilots doesn't really change anything.
Sorry, that was the point of the "generally", but I should have given examples of when the general rule is broken
I should preface this next part with: you're a better player than I am, and am open to being wrong here
And as far as your other points, I'm fairly sure that a pilot isn't needed to be replaced as captain to ensure that these tasks are accomplished. Aside from 1 and maybe 3 (but I feel needing to communicate instantly an ally captain instantly in a situation where where the gunner is the only one who sees the enemy would be so rare, you could say that about any member of the ship. Good communication within a ship solves that problem fast enough most of the time). In fact, I feel most of these issues are solved through good communication.
edit: I TYPED ALL OF THIS, AND I'M GOING TO POST IT, DAMN IT
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Sure when there are certain situations a gunner may give certain calls. But those are moments. You will suffer if you put every decision for tactic on the gunner for a whole match.
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Whenever I face double galleon I use one galleon as cover and kill the cover before charging for the next one.
I imagine a decent tactic to fight as a double galleon team is purely defensive. Usually sitting in a one line of approach area. Like a map corner or cul de sacs.
You'd need to be packing hydro and chute and claw.
case in point if a galleon can't be out manuvered. It cannot be beaten. I would poop myself against a full galleon team in desert scraps.
IF they manage to take up position on the point. Otherwise, not a chance in hell. You need a lighter ship to pin the enemy down.
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Oh i didn't reallise this was a -
press W for 2 seconds
tap hydrogen for 1 second
look left with the mouse
press F twice press 1 once and then hold D for 5 seconds before pressing 0 and then R twice
wipe your arse from front to back not back to front
- type deal about gunners being in charge.
My first point still stands though.
1. When flying with newbie pilots who are less experienced than the gunner.
It's not at all the case at least as i have meant it. As we have been working it I tell my pilot roughly where I want to go what target i am planning on engaging, what gun i want on target and how far away i want it. The pilot uses his discretion on his abilities and evasive maneuvers. I'm responsible for communicating and coordinating with the other commander and directing fire from our boat in regards to engineers not actively repairing stuff.
Where the ship is wounded or escape is necessary the pilots authority trumps mine (that is understood), in all other cases it is my ship to direct. Sometimes in close engagements I'll tell the pilot what i need him to do to keep my guns on target but short of that he's flying the boat.
we all started playing at the same time so I'm not more experienced than my pilot but I am nominally the leader of our clan so it was unlikely i wouldn't find myself in a command role, I just didn't want to pilot, my pilot wanted to fly but not really to command. So we began this experiment, now we are just trying to find the best ways to make it work and refine it as a strategy.
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If you think it could work, do what you will. You really should try flying sometime though. It's very... liberating. Also it's fun as hell. If you find me in game, I'd be interested in spectating a match, crewing on your ship, or even captaining an ally ship with your team. Just friend me!
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If you think it could work, do what you will. You really should try flying sometime though. It's very... liberating. Also it's fun as hell. If you find me in game, I'd be interested in spectating a match, crewing on your ship, or even captaining an ally ship with your team. Just friend me!
will do
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Having a Captain at all will help you win more matches so I think a Gunmander is not a terrible idea. That being said reaction time becomes more and more important the better your opponents are so keep that in mind. I could see it working on a Squid because you can run around and get more perspective about what's behind you.
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I got into a bit of an argument with some newer players about this yesterday. I've never heard a compelling reason why anyone but the person flying the ship should be in the captain slot. The gunner should be focused on shooting, not on the position of allies and enemies and what direction the ship should be going in. The pilot is the one flying the ship and therefore should be the one communicating to allies about positioning and such. The captain controls the AI, controls where to spawn, and should likewise be the person in charge of how the ship is being run.
Sure, the gunner can and should communicate when they have arcs, tell the captain if they see an enemy, etc. But first and foremost they need to be focused on killing the enemy, not on commanding the ship.
Person flying the ship (note I did not say "pilot", as on some builds an engineer flying works) = captain.
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sparklerfish reminded me one thing,
Gunmander happens only with above average communication.
If you want to Gunmander, you want friends and good players with you.
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If the pilot doesn't have a microphone, gunner in the captain spot to use captain chat is a good idea.
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I don't usually chime in on the forums these days, but this is a topic I've got quite a bit of information on.
Commanding from a gun is something that's possible, but unless you have a wealth of tactical knowledge that you just can't impart on your pilot, it's a better idea to be more of an enforcer from the gun. Taking that captain slot was, for awhile, the best way to operate the ship. Shukketsushi used to be our engineer, and she was definitely one of the very best, but after going through several pilots, we decided that it might be a better idea to toss her on the captain's slot. She's my wife, so she literally sits right next to me, and passing tactical information to her is as simple as speaking up. I can bring up my map and show her things on my screen, we can practice together incessantly...so, it worked. For awhile, it really did work.
The problem became that while in-game, our old standard operating procedure was to have the majority of the crew stay quiet unless something seriously important was happening. Since I was in the Captain slot, I was usually the guy coordinating movements with Frogger (who was the Captain on board the other ship in our team), and I would then issue commands after filtering out information that Shukketsushi might not need to know. Well, that's fine, if you've got a lot of time to pass that information around. When it comes down to it, though, there's a reason that modern ground forces without initiative driven small unit leaders usually crumble in the face of an initiative driven force, even if it's smaller teams with fewer assets.
Let me translate that: I needed to stop being the guy issuing the orders to my pilot, because I needed her reaction time to my orders to be ZERO. So, in the end of the second season of the Cogs, you'll see me on the gun and out of the Captain's slot.
Well...that and I was putting everyone on blast pretty constantly. Bad for the soul.
So, ultimately, I needed Shukketsushi to directly communicate with Frogger, and after countless matches controlling my ship from the gun, I needed to trust that she knew what was best to do at the helm. Ultimately, letting her conduct initiative based actions was stressful (not because she's a bad pilot. In fact, I put stock in her being easily among the best), but it was absolutely the right thing to do. This is an Occam's Razor moment, guys. It's easier, it's simpler, and it plainly makes more sense to let that pilot have the Captain's slot.
If you have that command presence (or loud voice and large library of interesting profanity to use), don't take Captain. Be the vocal guy on the gun, or the vocal guy beating up the hull with your tools of choice. The success we enjoyed in the RAFT during that second season and afterward was largely due to the fact that we would take things like these into account.