Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Skrimskraw on October 02, 2014, 10:57:36 am
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Event starts on saturday 4th of october at: 3pm edt / 9pm cest / 7pm gmt
The Sunday Community Skirmish is slowly taking steps into becoming tightly organized and all that good stuff.
However we see the event as an event run by every part of the competitive community, the organizers, the referees, the streamers, the casters and the teams themselves who participate. We are trying to make it fair and fun for everyone participating and in doing so we often get proposed changes to rulesets etc.
There are some rules we aren’t willing to implement without testing them firsthand.
This Saturday has no major events running, so we quickly set up a closed event for 4 teams.
The event is running with standard SCS rules, however we are going to test the following rule changes:
A change in the time limit with 10 minutes per map and a total of 10 minutes of extra time spanning over the entire best of 3.
A ship pick order using the following rules:
In the lobby red team is granted 1 minute to first pick 1 ship, when they have picked a ship the captain who picked signal it by pressing ready on that ship.
Blue team is then granted 2 minutes to pick 2 ships, when they have picked a ship the captain on the left ship pressed ready.
Red team is then granted 1 minute to pick their last ship, when they have picked a ship the captain on the ship presses ready and the countdown timer starts.
If teams fail to pick before the timer ends, they can ask for additional time if there are problems in the lobby, if not they must use the ship they had when the timer ran out.
In map 2 blue team picks first, then red and then blue again.
In map 3 red team picks first, then blue and then red again.
It’s a simple pick order of: 1:2:1 – it will be explained in the lobby if there is still confusion about it. Or contact me prior to event to clarify.
This change requires a more professional approach from referees than we have had beforehand. However teams are expected to keep track of the time ingame themselves. Asking the referee for remaining time is still allowed, but do not expect the referee to give the information if not asked.
The changes we are testing are based on a severe dissatisfaction from teams, refs and casters saying that the event total time is too long, as well in lobby as in ingame.
When this event is over I will require feedback from every participant on the teams, the referee and the casters.
I will also need feedback from the viewers who are attending the event or rewatching it. I will read it and I will be unbiased while doing so. Neither velvet nor I are willing to implement changes of this magnitude if the teams, refs and casters thinks it’s a bad idea. However I only accept feedback given after the event. I hope you guys will take part in giving feedback, if not enjoy the show
Feedback can be given in this thread or through forum pm.
Now the event is unfortunately closed, and instead of hoping that teams would signup in due time I decided to personally ask 4 clans to take part.
The bracket will be:
Game 1:
SPQR vs Rydr, SPQR have red spawn.
Map 1: battle on the dunes.
Map 2: paritan rumble.
Map 3: Canyon ambush.
Game 2:
Gents vs Cake, Gents have red spawn.
Map 1: Canyon ambush.
Map 2: duel at dawn.
Map 3: Northern fjords
Finals:
Game 1 winner vs game 2 winner, game 1 winner has red spawn.
Map 1: Northern fjords.
Map 2: battle on the dunes.
Map 3: paritan rumble.
Streaming will be at: http://www.twitch.tv/awesomemorty with Sir Morty and Brick Hardcastle.
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Out of curiosity, can captains switch after they pick ships? IE, Captain A of the red team picks a metamidion, then blue team picks, then Captain B of the red team swaps with Captain A, keeping a metamidion, and Captain A picks something else.
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Out of curiosity, can captains switch after they pick ships? IE, Captain A of the red team picks a metamidion, then blue team picks, then Captain B of the red team swaps with Captain A, keeping a metamidion, and Captain A picks something else.
yes if the builds stay the same.
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Does this rule affect crew composition and loadout?
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No it only affects ship loadout
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event is over, you can rewatch here:
http://www.twitch.tv/awesomemorty/b/574871192
if you have feedback please leave it, it is appreciated!
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Hi, fun games!
I feel that the time limit for the matches didn't need to be so short, and that the ship picking system is effective but quite restrictive. Perhaps a set amount of time could be left in the lobby for the teams to counter pick as per the old system, and then if they are taking too long at the ref/casters discretion begin the one pick two pick one pick system to force start the game.
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I don't like the shorter match time. Notably our second match with SPQR today was not at all decided, but they did not feel they could turn it around within the time so they did the logical thing and surrendered. I would have liked to get to play that match to completion and I think it quite possibly would have turned out differently if we had. I definitely think these rules will lead to a lot more timeouts and surrenders.
That said, making sure events are over quickly is also important, so there are considerations there and I'm happy to go with whatever the organizers decide works best.
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I don't like the shorter match time. Notably our second match with SPQR today was not at all decided, but they did not feel they could turn it around within the time so they did the logical thing and surrendered. I would have liked to get to play that match to completion and I think it quite possibly would have turned out differently if we had. I definitely think these rules will lead to a lot more timeouts and surrenders.
That said, making sure events are over quickly is also important, so there are considerations there and I'm happy to go with whatever the organizers decide works best.
People surrender in competitive? That's weak. One of the things i like best about this game is that you can always turn a bad match around.
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I don't like the shorter match time. Notably our second match with SPQR today was not at all decided, but they did not feel they could turn it around within the time so they did the logical thing and surrendered. I would have liked to get to play that match to completion and I think it quite possibly would have turned out differently if we had. I definitely think these rules will lead to a lot more timeouts and surrenders.
That said, making sure events are over quickly is also important, so there are considerations there and I'm happy to go with whatever the organizers decide works best.
People surrender in competitive? That's weak. One of the things i like best about this game is that you can always turn a bad match around.
It was done strategically: the game was running in overtime from a limited pool, there were 2 minutes left in the pool and they were 3 kills down. They surrendered because they thought it unlikely that they can get 3 kills to tie the match in 2 minutes, and so that if the next game also went into overtime there would be another 2 minutes left on the clock before it is force stopped or the game instantly stopping if it ran to 10 minutes with no overtime allowed.
Imho if the game had no time limit it, it could easily have gone to either team. But, in the situation i think it was a sound tactical decision to surrender and save the overtime for a game with a more favourable result.
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^ Yes. Surrendering was the smartest thing SPQR could do in the situation, which I don't like, because in of itself the match was not decided. They were essentially forced to give up on a salvageable match because we were out of time.
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About the short timers - that match with only 2 minutes left in over time... was on Paritan rumble! Definitely needs a longer timer.
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I personally just don't understand the mindset that winning at all costs is more exciting than potentially making a badass comeback and turning the match around. But yeah, these time rules don't seem like the best choice.
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Surrender as a strategically valid option due to time constraints isn't something necesserily bad. I'll agree however that 10 mins of standard time + 10 bonus is probably too low. Current SCS rule of 15+10 seems a better middle ground between the previous rule and the tested one.
As for the pick order rule, I'm opposed to it. Pick order is a working system for games such as mobas- these games have a large enough pick pool and more entities to be picked (read 10 players, ~100 possible heroes), thus allowing for a big variety of potential picks and counterpicks. In such games, picking is a deep, complex game by itself in which the team with the most foresight into the game will be able to gain a potential advantage via properly understanding the enemy's intentions and countering them through picks. In GoI, however, we only have 4 ships to be picked out of a total available pool of 7. There are far less available combinations and viable strategies, and the balance has more of a rock/paper/scizzors nature. Enforcing a pick order rule could, imo, cause long-term effects to the quality of the event and its' games by encouraging safer picks even more while giving a the team with the first and last pick an unfair advantage. Lobby time is indeed a problem but I think we should look for other ways of decreasing it before implementing such a strong, meta-altering rule.
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Well this whole event was set up just to test up rules variation. 10 minute match timer didn't work out.
Problem with current implementation is that lobbies will often devolve into endles cycle of counter picking until ref sternly tells them to stop wasting everybody elses's time. I think the prick-in-order idea has a potentiona - might need a bit more time to pick.
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Yeah time limit is a bit too short for my taste. I think it makes everyone play aggressive, which eliminates some of the strategies or play styles that different teams have.
However for the ship picks, I think it's not that bad. I kinda like it. Well, at least more than current system where people keep changing ships to counter each other for 5+ minutes.
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The time limit rly seems to short.
The pick idea is a interesting thing to counter ship scrambles but i have the fear it doesnt work out to well ...
Maybe a blind pick would work better where teams have to msg referee beforehand what ship and loadout they will take.
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Maybe a blind pick would work better where teams have to msg referee beforehand what ship and loadout they will take.
Holy potatoes, we gotta try this! That would be so much fun. I wish for this for so long, where teams wouldn't be able to see each others loadouts :D
And to make it even more fun, remove hitmarks on enemy ships in game :P Muse, come on, make it happen hehe.
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i'll come out with a statement of my analyzis tomorrow
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Swift are you crazy? Don't give them any ideas. If the hit markers go, I might have to switch class, yikes!
I believe the system you have been trying in the games we played is better than waiting for 20 minutes for everyone to finally decide what they want to play, or counter with. The completely blind pick could be good too, but it might also invite teams to remember what the other teams like to bring, and simply try to guess their ships counter according to this info.
I know what you have been trying to do with the time limit in-game, but I think it is either too short, or should be removed. This invites the current leading team to simply ignore or avoid the enemy ships, once the timer gets close to the end. The fact that it forces the losing team to concede instead of fighting till the bitter end, makes for a less exciting show.
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We tested the rules and I got the needed feedback to make an analyzis of some sort. The way I did it was by putting all feedback into a simple display based on positive and negative feedback on both rules. There were a few comments on the organizational spectrum.
Display: to the left you see either names or clan feedback, and above you see what they are commenting on.
http://s21.postimg.org/ty3ua5pgn/display.jpg (http://s21.postimg.org/ty3ua5pgn/display.jpg)
(http://s21.postimg.org/ty3ua5pgn/display.jpg)
The pick order rule:
To start with the positive feedback it is perceived that the pick order system is superior to the former endless time of counterpicking until the referee asked to ready up. We made a run with the new 5 minutes in lobby yesterday in SCS, which in itself worked much easier for the organizational team. I personally think that if we were to gain feedback compard to SCS 22 the feedback would be somewhat more negative towards this.
From the organizational team we have a big skepticism towards the pick order system, it was proposed as a possible solution to the long lobby times. In the eyes of us the organizers of SCS we are not interested in becoming the high competitive playground, we have no intentions of joining MLG rulesets or anything that would show a huge difference with professionalism in the competitive scene than what you have been used to before. We like that teams sign up on weekly basis, being able to change their rosters last minute etc. We are currently trying to get more teams to sign up, and a pick order system is in both the feedback and my own opinion not a valid solution in this event which basicly serves as weekly practice for all teams signing up.
However the system proves to be a valid solution for more competitive events, but needs a lot of work and further testing. The time to pick was too short for some teams, and I’d like to bring out a quote from JubJub:
“An example of how this went yesterday from our perspective: Red 1 rushes to pick a ship build based on the map and what he/she thinks/assumes/hopes the enemy is going to bring due to only having 1 minute to decide. Blue 1 and Blue 2 see Red 1's ship, and in a 2 minute long conversation pick two ships to counter it, and whatever would work well with it. Red 2 is then forced, again with 1 minute remaining, to either pick a ship that works well with his ally, or a different ship that doesn't work well with his ally, but will try to counter the enemy's ships.”
If anyone is willing to work further on this system, or if we at some point test it further, this is where you should start. With the feedback given it is concluded that the system is not perfect, but is better than not having any time limits on picking both from a streaming, organizational and team perspective. However this is not the future of SCS.
The time limit rule:
While testing the time limit rule a question came up regarding to the surrender option. In the eyes of the organizational team it is completely valid to surrender at any time during the game, however we feel that surrender based on saving time is a valid tactic but if it can be avoided would be better. A lot of teams felt stressed about the 10 minutes, which gave only room for a swift and aggressive playstyle. Further concerns were given about ships and builds being locked out due to time constraints. Being a practice event we want to promote teams to use us as a playground if possible, to test various builds competitive. The short time means that keeping an eye on the clock becomes a valid meta, concerns such as clock abuse and avoiding combat seems to be the biggest factor. I don’t think it is a good idea for SCS to push teams into thinking of anything other than having fun and playing versus each other is a good way to do things. We will keep running with the current system from SCS22 which provides teams with up to 25 minutes in a match to do long range egagements, however we are not interested in giving teams more time than this. Both from a streaming and organizational perspective sniping games with more than these 25 minutes proves to be boring and not fun, teams can keep that in their own scrimmages.
Remaining comments:
It would be interesting to test the proposed blind pick system that was given with feedback. It is possible that I will run an event testing this in the near future.
The reason we as referees do not use ingame voice chat in lobbies is that we cannot be sure that it is heard by everyone. However using the chat is a lot easier for us as referees. You can send us private messages, or write us on steam we are ok with that, but we won’t be using ingame voice chat for information due to confusion, unless it is necessary.
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The reason we as referees do not use ingame voice chat in lobbies is that we cannot be sure that it is heard by everyone. However using the chat is a lot easier for us as referees. You can send us private messages, or write us on steam we are ok with that, but we won’t be using ingame voice chat for information due to confusion, unless it is necessary.
On this topic, I wondered if the referee couldn't be in a party with all captains of the current match, in case the ref's chat messages get drowned out by chat-happy people.
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The reason we as referees do not use ingame voice chat in lobbies is that we cannot be sure that it is heard by everyone. However using the chat is a lot easier for us as referees. You can send us private messages, or write us on steam we are ok with that, but we won’t be using ingame voice chat for information due to confusion, unless it is necessary.
On this topic, I wondered if the referee couldn't be in a party with all captains of the current match, in case the ref's chat messages get drowned out by chat-happy people.
lets try it sunday
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The Party idea is great, However I do have to make a note that I'm deaf and often times I do miss what is said in voice chat, the main reason party chat works great is that the texts are in a different colour and makes it stands out, in game and in lobby.