Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Sammy B. T. on September 30, 2014, 11:20:00 am
-
This is not a long thought out idea so bear (http://www.hansstrand.com/Hans_Strand/Waving_Polar_Bear_files/Waving%20Polar%20Bear.jpg) with me. I've been thinking again about the carronade and various proposed fixes that wouldn't start another tired conversation about the gun that is completely overpowered or underpowered based on the situation when I realized I may be looking at the wrong side of the equation. So I began thinkning about potential buffs to defense against carronades like armored balloons, increasing upward arcs of gats and mortars and so on. However this idea struck me earlier today and I wanted to get the community's thoughts.
The Question
What if damage to a downed balloon did not transfer to hull or had a reduced transfer to hull.
Now as I am sure you are all aware, when the balloon is downed all damage done to the hit marker of the balloon gets counted as a damage to the armor and hull. What if this didn't happen, either entirely or partially. Quick, to the conjecture corner!
The potentially good
1. Balloon popping would still be a useful zoning technique.
2. Balloon blocking would be a bit more awesome
3. Ships like the every ship other than pyramidion wouldn't be hard countered by the existence of a carronade in the match
The potentially bad
1. This could be a bit of a nerf to carronades and lumberjacks
2. But where does the damage go?
For me though when I am in combat and I lose my balloon, I'm not thinkning of the really crappy fact that I am now falling out of the fight and that my ally is all alone. Instead, I am focused on selfish fears, that I am now super vulnerable to gat mortars. Surely zoning in of itself should be a useful advantage. It already sucks to not have a working balloon on an airship, can't that be enough?
My proposal, and this may be a better idea for dev app testing, is try a few things
No damage transference
Reduces by X% damage transference
Different damage multipliers for shots hitting a downed balloon.
-
I think this is a good idea, at the very least I think it should be tested. Zoning is such a huge advantage already, not to mention how long it takes to fully repair the balloon and enter the fight again.
-
I am fine with a damage reduction for damage transfer but taking it away completly i see alot of "abuse". (abuse is maybe the wrong word but i assume you will understand what i mean)
By taking away the damage transfer completly you will have ships like junker that survive for ages cause your unable to hit their hull.
Or a mobula with a dead balloon where you hit the enemy but youre aoe goes in the balloon alone taking away a big proportion of the damage just because you didnt hit an extremely hard to hit target.
And for me these days i am not concerned about the bigger hitbox but on the inability to assist my ally. But ok ive flown with the thralls recently and we value balloons much higher than any other team ive flown with.
-
I think a reduction would be cool. Removing it completely would be bad. *cough* Junker *cough*
Balloon pop does the following.
- Remove you from the fight, leaving your ally 2v1
- More vunerable to hull hits.
- And the potential to leave you grinding up against the floor. Letting you die slowly and frustratingly.
Oh and the Carronade can disable components really easily.
And the heavy carronade is actually quite effective vs. hull armour.
The Carronade does a lot. Maybe too much...
-
Yeah, the junker comes to mind, his hull is already small, the baloon is its weakness.
All other ships dont exactly have the baloon as its main focus point of damage so this change doesnt exactly help much.
-
Balloon pop does the following.
•Remove you from the fight, leaving your ally 2v1
•More vunerable to hull hits.
•And the potential to leave you grinding up against the floor. Letting you die slowly and frustratingly.
Unless im missing patch notes that recent buffed carronades, then:
-It makes it a 1v1 more often than 2v1. The window of popping a balloon, then changing over to their ally is quite small.
-True. Pretty much the point of it, as it has to go through balloon before it can even touch hull, something things like gat/mortar don't have to do.
-Depends on position relative to the ground. The time variable of grinding someone into the ground is varied immensely.
And im not picking on your post, you just happened to put nice points up that let me explain the other side of the coin.
I think you would disproportionately buff some ships while nerfing carronades as a whole, for, what reason? To buff junkers? They don't exactly need it.
-
Just a historical note: we added the damage transfer mechanic back in beta, because prior to that shooting a destroyed component produced no damage and led to very strange results. Your destroyed balloon was effectively a shield that blocked all damage from above; the Goldfish could ram with impunity because a destroyed front gun blocked all other damage from the front.
Basically, removing transfer is not likely to happen, at least not without other major revisions to address these issues that led to its original introduction.
-
What if you took the lowest damage modifier between balloon-armor or balloon-hull and applied that to the damage being done to the armor or hull?
So Carronade destroys the balloon. Normally a gatling shooting the balloon would have piercing modifier on armor and the damage would be dealt to the armor. The change would be that the gatling instead has a modifier as if it were shooting the balloon, but it still deals damage to the armor.
A Carronade hitting a dead balloon would have a modifier as if it were shooting the armor (since it deals less damage to armor) and deals the damage to the armor.
Basically you can still aim at the balloon, but it gives you the lowest possible damage modifier between the balloon and what you are actually damaging.
This could also be applied to other components?
-
Stopping damage transfer makes the junker and mobula ridiculously op.
-
A Carronade hitting a dead balloon would have a modifier as if it were shooting the armor (since it deals less damage to armor) and deals the damage to the armor.
This is already true. A carronade shooting a dead balloon doesn't get balloon modifiers on armor.
So Carronade destroys the balloon. Normally a gatling shooting the balloon would have piercing modifier on armor and the damage would be dealt to the armor. The change would be that the gatling instead has a modifier as if it were shooting the balloon, but it still deals damage to the armor.
This is the main question I suppose, which still takes me back to if this were a feature, you're buffing ships disproportionately. A big reason for taking out a balloon is so that you get the increased hitbox to hit armor/hull. A junker already has a tiny profile. Then to add onto that special modifiers so that it gets a balloon shield in essence, further delaying the already slow kill that balloon popping weapons provide.
-
I like the idea of hull taking reduced damage. Not completely removing it but make it take a little longer to kill a ship by just shooting at balloons. The same working for hardpoints might make kills harder to get. Junker alone would be even more of a pain as it is so easy to hit hardpoints instead of armor on that ship.
-
You could also just decrease the modifiers of flachette/shatter vs armor so it takes longer to destroy armor with carronades, which they are not intended to do anyway.
-
You could also just decrease the modifiers of flachette/shatter vs armor so it takes longer to destroy armor with carronades, which they are not intended to do anyway.
And further making gatling the only short ranged gun that can break armor in any amount of time worth using. No thanks.
-
Well, to be fair, the entire point of the gatling is to be a short range armor stripper. It's the only thing the gun is good at. If it wasn't the best in that role it would be a pretty useless gun.
-
Correct. Gatling is just fine. But for heavy guns especially, they have 0 piercing options. Flechette is their only real "armor stripper". Flechette has been the runner up to piercing, as it were. The modifier was already lowered the last time it was modified (and justifiably). I don't think lowering it more will keep balance.
-
True, hmm.. Well, the spire has plenty of small guns to support its heavy gun. So, I don't think changing how the modifier works would have too much of an impact on it. The goldfish is in a similar boat. It has light guns it can use if it feels it needs to.
It seems that only the right side of a galleon would really be effected. A simple fix for that would be to add a light gun slot to the right side. There's already one on the left, so I doubt that it would cause balance issues. I don't think that the heavy carronade should be able to strip armor as efficiently as it does.
I like the idea of changing the effectiveness of the modifiers. Unless muse decides to make a heavy weapon that is meant to specifically strip armor, then relying on light guns should be something that you just have to live with.
-
That is to do with the dealer side, but on the recieving side. Like Watchmaker mentioned, the guns/baloon etc can proove to be extremely strong just being there.
Again with the junker, it would be very strong with this change.
And currently, there is no need to change it. The only modifiers i would change is how flachette, shatter shouldnt do that much damage against the armor/hull with the guns we have now.
-
Id be willing to look at the shatter over the flechette. I know heavy carro can one shot guns (which id like to retain if possible) but it might be doing overkill.
That said, I still think the modifiers are fine as is. A heavy carronade doesn't kill anything quickly save balloons.
-
Posted by: Crafeksterty
« on: Today at 11:44:14 am »
...And currently, there is no need to change it.
Right, well, click this link:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4697.0.html
This is the ship usage thread for The Hephaestus Challenge. To sum up all of Deltajugg's beautiful numbers, there were more pyramidions than every other ship combined. There's a balance issue there.
Currently, damage transfer between the balloon and hull is too powerful and easily abused. Balloon popping is a magnificent way to control an engagement, but with how damage transfer works now, it's just too powerful as a kill weapon. Adding a GIANT hitbox to any ship that has an exposed balloon AFTER that ship is already being controlled and probably can't shoot back is just.. Painful. It means that if there is a single balloon popper, I have to seriously consider bringing a pyramidion just to avoid being such an easy kill. If there's a Heavy carronade, or two light carronades, I'd be crazy if I didn't go with the pyramidion.
Damage transfer needs to be relooked at. I'm not saying remove it. Personally, I think redria's idea is quite interesting. But, there needs to be a change. Carronades themselves are pretty well balanced so I don't think making a change to how they work would be a good answer. Impact damage is also in a pretty good spot, being able to slam your opponent into a cliff, or the ground, is a pretty fun and well-balanced way to kill using a carronade. But, guns shooting a downed balloon is simply too effective under the current system.
-
Im sorry, but this mechanic is not even close to being a main reason why pyramidions are popular. Taking a pyra to counter carronades is one thing, but they have a lot more going for them then that, especially with phoenix claw being as spammable as it is.
-
What if you took the lowest damage modifier between balloon-armor or balloon-hull and applied that to the damage being done to the armor or hull?
So Carronade destroys the balloon. Normally a gatling shooting the balloon would have piercing modifier on armor and the damage would be dealt to the armor. The change would be that the gatling instead has a modifier as if it were shooting the balloon, but it still deals damage to the armor.
A Carronade hitting a dead balloon would have a modifier as if it were shooting the armor (since it deals less damage to armor) and deals the damage to the armor.
Basically you can still aim at the balloon, but it gives you the lowest possible damage modifier between the balloon and what you are actually damaging.
This could also be applied to other components?
I'm just going to suggest this option as an awesome one - although it might be hard to code, and a simple reduced damage transferrance might be more practical.
-
You would unbalance the game for the sake of nerfing pyra?
edit: The change would make baloon popping less desired and pyras would actualy be stronger since the change applies to them also.
Im aware of baloon popping weapons do alot of damage to hull, but changing exactly how it works is not healthy.
Just, a change on numbers of the modifiers can help, but shouldnt go overboard.