Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Echoez on July 23, 2014, 03:00:40 am
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So, I don't even remember how long ago was the Hades introduced and to be quite honest, I haven't been playing much myself other than the Sky League lately, so please judge me not.
I remember the introduction of the hades as something pretty cool, the meta shifted, new and interesting loadouts popped out and overall, there was something fresh to play with. I also remember my disapointment that said weapon wasn't a heavy one.
How long has it been since a new Heavy gun was introduced? What was the last one? Lumberjack? That was before I even started playing if I remember correctly. I've been away for like what, over 6 months, I come back for SKy League, absolutely nothing has changed and I do remember asking Muse specificaly in one of their streams last summer when can we at least expect a new heavy gun, I got an answer of like 3-4 months. I've been gone for half a year and there's still nothing :P
So, I'm gonna ask again in a way, when can we finally expect a new heavy gun? What are your guys' thoughts on it and what would you expect to see?
Personaly I'm sad there's no flame artillery yet in the form of a mid range gasoline flamer or anti air auto-cannons, I want my Pom-Poms Muse, when am I getting them? :3
(PS: if a mod could move this to general discussion please cause I just noticed I put it in the wrong forum section.. work's internet is kinda slow, sorry!)
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A new heavy gun will drastically change the 3 ships that hold heavy guns.
So yeah, im so hyped for any new heavy guns.
I believe the Hwacha is the newest addition of heavy guns, but that was before i started playing.
For the most part, i am expecting something radically different in terms of usage.
Like, is it a more supportish like weapon, or is it a status effect type weapon. etc etc.
But the most probable expectation i think is an impact damage heavy gun. A heavy gun that fires then hits a ship, and makes that ship move like it got rammed.
Uh, like how mines hit a ship. Most threads or posts talked about some kind of a "Cannon" 1 shot, close to long range projectile that hits a ship with massive impact moving the target ship.
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As echo said the newest heavy gun is the lumberjack. Hwacha, Hflak and Hcarro are there for longer.
Dont know what it will be but yes i will be excited once it comes in again.
But to say that the meta doesnt change is wrong.
Yes there are standards that stay for a very long time like the gat mortar but there are also new things.
The team of gat/mortar+hades/flak we had at the start of HC wasnt that much used before. A few teams did but in the first 2 weeks of HC they were the goto build for most teams.
Carronade+artemis got a recent hype.
Or to go further into the past ... We had the Artemis which was used extremely often. Those are builds you still see from time to time.
For a long time there were barely any goldfishs in competetive and now we have several ...
The lumberfish was pretty much a nogo before HC. Then Muse started it again and we see it showing up every now and then again.
Galleon are gettin reintroduced aswell.
First weeks of HC there were no or barely any Galleons.
Now we see them in some games.
Just a few examples that show how things change. There dont need to be a drastic balance change or a new gun to change the meta and builds.
All it needs is a team willing to do sth new and if it works out how they wanted you will most likely see it every now and then.
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Just a few examples that show how things change. There dont need to be a drastic balance change or a new gun to change the meta and builds.
All it needs is a team willing to do sth new and if it works out how they wanted you will most likely see it every now and then.
Sure, I agree, but that doesn't make the already 4 used weapons any less stale and Galleon builds are still pretty much Sniper/Brawl sides if you don't count Overwatch's ridiculous shenanigans in Flotsam, Goldfishes still only use 2 of the 4 available guns and Spire is.. I don't wanna talk about the Spire until it can fly sideways :P
By fresh I mean I want something new, a slight meta shift will not replace my thirst for a new shiny toy to equip on my Goldie or Galleon. Unlike ships like the Junker, Mobula and the Pyra that can play around with a lot of guns, Fishes and Galleys are VERY restricted with their heavy gun loadouts and lets be honest, there might as well only be 3 Heavy guns atm cause I don't count the Heavy Flak as a 'weapon' it's just a finisher, not a real weapon, it's only good at ONE thing, which I find is very lacking for a heavy gun design in this game, considering all other heavy guns are multi-purpose.
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Just a few examples that show how things change. There dont need to be a drastic balance change or a new gun to change the meta and builds.
All it needs is a team willing to do sth new and if it works out how they wanted you will most likely see it every now and then.
Sure, I agree, but that doesn't make the already 4 used weapons any less stale and Galleon builds are still pretty much Sniper/Brawl sides if you don't count Overwatch's ridiculous shenanigans in Flotsam, Goldfishes still only use 2 of the 4 available guns and Spire is.. I don't wanna talk about the Spire until it can fly sideways :P
By fresh I mean I want something new, a slight meta shift will not replace my thirst for a new shiny toy to equip on my Goldie or Galleon. Unlike ships like the Junker, Mobula and the Pyra that can play around with a lot of guns, Fishes and Galleys are VERY restricted with their heavy gun loadouts and lets be honest, there might as well only be 3 Heavy guns atm cause I don't count the Heavy Flak as a 'weapon' it's just a finisher, not a real weapon, it's only good at ONE thing, which I find is very lacking for a heavy gun design in this game, considering all other heavy guns are multi-purpose.
Shows you've been away. The Lumberfish is all the rage now, i think since muse beat the ducks with it in the haephestus challenge. There are plenty of viable galleon builds and the spire may not be quite up to par for competitive though i believe it is) But in any case it's a force to be reckoned with.
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Shows you've been away. The Lumberfish is all the rage now, i think since muse beat the ducks with it in the haephestus challenge. There are plenty of viable galleon builds and the spire may not be quite up to par for competitive though i believe it is) But in any case it's a force to be reckoned with.
I've been here for the Spire changes, it's still a ship that can't hold its own against even a Squid and that makes it incredibly bad in my opinion, "Operation Focus Spire" is still a running joke (and funnily enough still works) since the ship is still horrible at taking any sort of hit and live to tell the tale.
Lumberfish has always been as effective as the gunner on it and that goes for any ship with an LJ, it's still inferior to an LJ/Flak Galleon and suffers from the same weakness to easy disables while not retaining any killing power by itself to effectively kill a ship fast. I've flown it numerous times and I don't see why not even take a Spire instead of it, at least you can fire more guns while still being able to backpedal. Though it could have some uses against slower ships, but I don't see how it will do any better than a Spire considering the enemy gunners can easily disable your gun with an Artemis on both occassions.
I'll take a look at that replay if you can provide it via PM tho as I am interested. Let's keep this on topic though, this is not about currently viable guns on ships, it's about just getting more of them, more shinies is always good.
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Shows you've been away. The Lumberfish is all the rage now, i think since muse beat the ducks with it in the haephestus challenge. There are plenty of viable galleon builds and the spire may not be quite up to par for competitive though i believe it is) But in any case it's a force to be reckoned with.
I've been here for the Spire changes, it's still a ship that can't hold its own against even a Squid and that makes it incredibly bad in my opinion, "Operation Focus Spire" is still a running joke (and funnily enough still works) since the ship is still horrible at taking any sort of hit and live to tell the tale.
Lumberfish has always been as effective as the gunner on it and that goes for any ship with an LJ, it's still inferior to an LJ/Flak Galleon and suffers from the same weakness to easy disables while not retaining any killing power by itself to effectively kill a ship fast. I've flown it numerous times and I don't see why not even take a Spire instead of it, at least you can fire more guns while still being able to backpedal. Though it could have some uses against slower ships, but I don't see how it will do any better than a Spire considering the enemy gunners can easily disable your gun with an Artemis on both occassions.
I'll take a look at that replay if you can provide it via PM tho as I am interested. Let's keep this on topic though, this is not about currently viable guns on ships, it's about just getting more of them, more shinies is always good.
None of these statements are definitive. Theory never holds up 100%, but especially in this game. You were doing the same thing in the pyramidion thread. Acting like you know exactly how every single situation in this game plays out.
But aside from that, why can't a spire hold its own against a squid? Especially with the hwacha or hellhound, it is very doable.
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Well, the main weapon types we are missing for heavy weapon types are...
Mid/long range armor melt - frankly no heavy weapon is a good armor melter, though obviously close range carro spam will demolish anything and a full hwacha burst will do heavy armor damage...but they aren't optimized for it. There is no equivalent for hades or gatling.
Flamer type - I would vote against this personally, there doesn't seem to be a point.
Mines - This I would like to see. Giant floating death blocks, or even something so simple as a dual barreled mine launcher that can hold 8-10 mines out in space at one time. Mine galleon go!
Heavy rocket launcher - I mean artemis type gun. However, I think hwacha already covers this pretty well.
Harpoon - I think a heavy harpoon launcher should instantly kill squids.
Extreme long range sniping weapon - heavy mercury. I don't know how this could be balanced however, as the merc already 2 shots some hull armors. Also loch on this would be deadly.
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None of these statements are definitive. Theory never holds up 100%, but especially in this game. You were doing the same thing in the pyramidion thread. Acting like you know exactly how every single situation in this game plays out.
But aside from that, why can't a spire hold it's own against a squid? Especially with the hwacha or hellhound, it is very doable.
I never said that, I said "why not", don't put words in my mouth and don't bring other threads into this, I'm always speaking my opinion like everyone does everytime they post something, I thought that was common sense. Which means my opinion is not a solid fact and neither is anyone else's.
Also please tell me what exatly I said doesn't stand true for the most part? The Lumberjack is a gunner's weapon, on a Goldfish, from long range, you can only fire one gun, so you are as effective as your gunner, plain and simple.
In terms of finishing and pure damage, it is inferior to an LJ/Flak Galleon, it's a simple matter of 2 guns versus only one. The Galleon is tankier and can starfe, allowing it to snipe for prolonged times.
The Spire can indeed backpedal like the Goldfish and fire more guns at the target.
The Goldfish's, Spire's AND Galleon's guns are all easily disabled as a sniper, cause in order to fire the LJ, you need to give your gunner a steady ship, or greatly risk messing up their shots.
You're telling me those statements aren't definite, sure, agreed, at least bother to explain why (and if you decided to do so, do it in a PM, not here), since as I said, I've been away for some time, so maybe things have changed? You come off as realy condecending in your comment and I don't realy like it.
As for the Spire not holding up against a Squid, the Squid can easily break your gun arcs cause your ship is so tall, it can stay above and pound your balloon, you can't escape either cause the Spire is too slow for that, one mistake and you are dead.
Now please stop derailing, I stated it before as well, this is a thread about NEW heavy guns and not a discussion about what works or not, I just stated my OPINIONS on the original post, that's all they are and will remain.
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Mid/long range armor melt - frankly no heavy weapon is a good armor melter, though obviously close range carro spam will demolish anything and a full hwacha burst will do heavy armor damage...but they aren't optimized for it. There is no equivalent for hades or gatling.
Could be autocannons that shoot projectiles, not hitscan, so it's actually more of a challenge to fire them.
Flamer type - I would vote against this personally, there doesn't seem to be a point.
A gasoline flamer would work like hellfire artillery, would be a nice addition I believe, or it could come in the form of an incindiery grenade launcher?
Mines - This I would like to see. Giant floating death blocks, or even something so simple as a dual barreled mine launcher that can hold 8-10 mines out in space at one time. Mine galleon go!
even bigger mines? :P
Heavy rocket launcher - I mean artemis type gun. However, I think hwacha already covers this pretty well.
I find the Hwacha to be pretty different, since it's a burst type weapon with a massive reload, though I guess more rocket launchers would be reduntant, I'd like to see missiles tho :P
Extreme long range sniping weapon - heavy mercury. I don't know how this could be balanced however, as the merc already 2 shots some hull armors. Also loch on this would be deadly.
Probably OP as you mentioned, also 1 shot magazines with Loch all day. Though I have to admit a giant railgun would be cool.
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I want muse to add one of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KsXYK_CNoQ
and make it do impact damage
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I want muse to add one of these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KsXYK_CNoQ
and make it do impact damage
Pom Poms! <3
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I definitely think something with impact damage would be the most interesting addition.
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I actually don't even know what impact damage is.
Is it supposed to push ships (like mine launcher?).
That would be sweet, like an air gun that shoves them out of arc =D
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I actually don't even know what impact damage is.
Is it supposed to push ships (like mine launcher?).
That would be sweet, like an air gun that shoves them out of arc =D
Exactly. The whole reason i think mines are so much fun is because you know there's a real person somewhere trying to control that ship you are knocking around.
(Yes, derailing threads is my specialty.)
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Yeah but an 'air' gun wouldn't damage them, which hardly seems fitting for a heavy gun, plus it would be annoying :P
(TF2 Pyro airblasts anyone?)
A double barrelled long cannon would be a cool candinate for impact damage dealing shells. Also 'Impact' damage is the damage type you get from collisions with map objects, like buildings, the ground etc etc, also mines deal it in their explosion.
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Yeah but an 'air' gun wouldn't damage them, which hardly seems fitting for a heavy gun, plus it would be annoying :P
(TF2 Pyro airblasts anyone?)
A double barrelled long cannon would be a cool candinate for impact damage dealing shells. Also 'Impact' damage is the damage type you get from collisions with map objects, like buildings, the ground etc etc, also mines deal it in their explosion.
How about it also reflects projectiles. That would be so sweet.
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How about it also reflects projectiles. That would be so sweet.
But, we are trying to avoid adding Pyro airblast to this game :C
also can you imagine the tears of LJ and Flak gunners when their well aimmed shots just fling back at them? It would ruin a lot of people's days :P
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A lj/flak Galleon and a lumberfish are two extremely different things.
One is a stationary fortress that wants to deal as much dmg as possible and the other is a support disable ship that wants to set up good engages for his ally.
You cant compare those two just cause both use a lumberjack.
If i imagine a lj/flak galli instead of the lumberfishes in the competetive matches i probably get to the conclusion that the galli wouldnt work in that situation.
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A lj/flak Galleon and a lumberfish are two extremely different things.
One is a stationary fortress that wants to deal as much dmg as possible and the other is a support disable ship that wants to set up good engages for his ally.
You cant compare those two just cause both use a lumberjack.
If i imagine a lj/flak galli instead of the lumberfishes in the competetive matches i probably get to the conclusion that the galli wouldnt work in that situation.
As I said, the effectiveness of the ship is entirely dependant on the gunner's skill with the weapon, you can still achieve the same results with all 3 heavy gun bearing ships, the gun has the same purpose on all of them and that's to disable an enemy, except on a Goldfish, if you lose said gun, you lose all your firepower at range and since you need to stay still to aim an LJ, you are an easy target that will have nothing esle to fire if you lose it.
That's why I personaly think that it's less effective than say a Spire doing the same thing, even a Galleon, it doesn't matter. It's your opinion and this is mine, now can we stop derailing?
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Spire and Galleon are slow and immobile.
Goldfish is not. It can navigate around corners rather easy. It can change targets quicker even if they are hidden at their current location.
Goldfish has a much easier time at doding and hiding behind cover when needed.
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Heavy Mine Launcher: Deploys 3 mines at a time in a wide spread, can suppot up to 9 mines (3 shots) per gun.
Minelayer Galleon, anyone?
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"you need to stay still to aim an LJ"
...filthy casuals...
=P
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"you need to stay still to aim an LJ"
...filthy casuals...
=P
Show me at least 3 more people that can reliably hit a far away moving target while the ship's nose is still in motion with an LJ and I might consider rethinking it :P
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Heavy Mine Launcher: Deploys 3 mines at a time in a wide spread, can suppot up to 9 mines (3 shots) per gun.
Minelayer Galleon, anyone?
Now this is something I can get behind, wow that would be amazing. :D
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Xemko, lueosi, twinkie?
shiggy diggy
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Xemko, lueosi, twinkie?
shiggy diggy
Great, now that you have proven your point, move on to the actual topic.
and yes I was expecting that answer, I'm not new here you know, lol.
That's still only 4 people, so yeah, effektive taktix. This isn't the place to stroke your ego Geo, get a room :P
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Hue hue hue, I can list others and my ego does need stroking =P
Things we still want to see are a heavy flamethrower, + I will slightly derail here and suggest a light long range flechette weapon!
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Things we still want to see are a heavy flamethrower
Yesh plis.
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a light long range flechette weapon!
Tasty.
Actually, regarding a heavy flamethrower and all of the suggestions of a tar cloud ammo...
What about a firestorm heavy gun? Launch a canister/molotov cocktail. When it either hits something or reaches max range it explodes into the size of a single tar cloud. The cloud creates 3(?) stacks of fire per second on any component inside it, and possibly the shot deals some sort of fun damage if it hits. Say primary damage is impact and secondary (AOE) damage is fire.
Heavy fire weapon that is not just a copy of a flamethrower. :D
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Well a gasoline flamer wouldn't just shoot out gas, it would be foundamentaly different on its usage, though your idea does seem cool :3
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What about a firestorm heavy gun? Launch a canister/molotov cocktail. When it either hits something or reaches max range it explodes into the size of a single tar cloud. The cloud creates 3(?) stacks of fire per second on any component inside it, and possibly the shot deals some sort of fun damage if it hits. Say primary damage is impact and secondary (AOE) damage is fire.
Heavy fire weapon that is not just a copy of a flamethrower. :D
^ i lik dis. dis gud stuf. But really, that'd be a lot of fun.
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Noticing some derailing here. Lets try to keep in on point guys.
I too want to see a new heavy gun as the next addition in GOIO's arsenal.
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I'd want to see a heavy variant of the Hades. Having a straight piercing weapon wouldn't work well with heavy weapons in the game, (do we want a gat mortar equivalent galleon?) However some beat of a gun that deals some pierce and a lot of fire, with a low clip, large drop and huge projectile of fire flying across the sky could be awesome. Is that a sun? No, its the Hades Volcano Cannon dropping a world of hurt on you.
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a light long range flechette weapon!
Tasty.
Actually, regarding a heavy flamethrower and all of the suggestions of a tar cloud ammo...
What about a firestorm heavy gun? Launch a canister/molotov cocktail. When it either hits something or reaches max range it explodes into the size of a single tar cloud. The cloud creates 3(?) stacks of fire per second on any component inside it, and possibly the shot deals some sort of fun damage if it hits. Say primary damage is impact and secondary (AOE) damage is fire.
Heavy fire weapon that is not just a copy of a flamethrower. :D
This is the most amazing thing! I think it needs an alternate fire that puts the projectiles into non-detonate mode making it so that the ship gets coated in flamable liquid making it so that when your allies engage they can light up the ship and do more damage <3 I also think that 2 stacks per second and a maybe 15% bigger then a single tar clout would be more my fancy
*Alternate fire should not create a pool in mid air it should get to it's maximum range then fall at a medium speed unless ignited.
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I remember a lot of discussion about a heavy piercing weapon in the past. Every body said it would be over powered and that gat flak galleons would rule the skies. Seeing how easy it is to disable a galleon these days I don't think we have to worry.
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I remember a lot of discussion about a heavy piercing weapon in the past. Every body said it would be over powered and that gat flak galleons would rule the skies. Seeing how easy it is to disable a galleon these day I don't think we have to worry.
It used to be even easier back in 1.2 with the old Lesmok Mercury gun that had a massive turning arc, people were just overreacting as usual. Disabling a Galleon was always easy, people were just too busy with the old Gat/Flak combos that they forgot the game also had disabling weapons because Gat/Flak was just too good at killing. Now with the buffed Artemis, it's a piece of cake as you don't even have to hit the gun pin point to damage it + you will damage both guns with one shot thanks to the Arty's explosion radius.
This has always been my counter argument to all these silly comments about Gat/Flak Galleons ruling GoIO but does anyone ever listen? :P
Now will Muse finally give us Pom-Poms?
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Artillery cannon. Arming time and distance selectable by gunner. Shell explodes at that distance with a large AOE blast to say the size of flame thrower range. So you don't have to hit a vessel directly, just be near it. Could even give it a proximity range. Shell arc is greater than LJ. You cannot aim it directly at a vessel. Weapon would be intended for usage with a rangefinder. Advanced weapon for sure. Would take 2 to operate and a gunner to plan where the shell will fall in advance to catch a vessel.
Would lead to a lot of "You sunk my battleship!" jokes and battles. Probably make it a single shot weapon that has a load time.
So in otherwords, a town sacking gun. Could even make it have fire damage. So it would be a heavy Hades. Just have the shell explode and rain fire over the area under it. Hades Clusterbomb.
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I just want a heavy Gatling.
Like the regular Gatling, but big.
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Artillery cannon. Arming time and distance selectable by gunner. Shell explodes at that distance with a large AOE blast to say the size of flame thrower range. So you don't have to hit a vessel directly, just be near it. Could even give it a proximity range. Shell arc is greater than LJ. You cannot aim it directly at a vessel. Weapon would be intended for usage with a rangefinder. Advanced weapon for sure. Would take 2 to operate and a gunner to plan where the shell will fall in advance to catch a vessel.
Actually... this.
I'd like some sort of artillery weapon that explodes into smaller explosive/fire shells when it reaches its arming range. Very high arc, as you suggested, with the spawned projectiles randomly shooting out in a small-medium sized aoe around the shell. In this way it can be used at long-range in innovative ways, for example, firing over walls in Paritan or Canyon Ambush to scope out enemy locations or force them to move.
It can also do minor impact damage if it doesn't arm, giving it some utility on a spire, for example, which might be trying to knock a charging metamidion out of arc. I can't see that being very OP, but I can definitely see some builds making use of it. Would definitely make some ships like Spire or Galleon more viable on CK or CP maps, by being able to support at long range by bombarding teams camping points.
TLDR - artillery weapon with fragmentation effect when it reaches arming range, minor impact damage otherwise.
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I just want a heavy Gatling.
Like the regular Gatling, but big.
Not sure if that would be practical. Although a anti-air gun could probably fill the same niche.
Huh. so gasoline flamer? So you mean like greek fire spewing green flame everywhere lighting water on fire? Oh wait, I think that's supposed to be nApALm.
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Time to dig out a weapon concept I've posted a while back. Basically a boomerang weapon. I originally thought of it as a impact-heavy weapon, but I could see it as a long range flechette light weapon as well. Anyway, I'd like to see a new gun some time soon as well - preferably something that's interesting to shoot.
Oriza weapon concept (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3359.msg57855.html#msg57855)
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I've always pictured the next heavy gun to be a large tesla coil. That delt piercing and lit components on fire, but would be extreemly short ranged.
Athough, if the next heavy weapon was peircing, I'd rather see an old-school large cannon. like the guns that appear at 0:46 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPLw6xI33O8). I would do pierce primarily (secondary maybe shatter?) but would have a delay from when the gunner pulled the trigger to when the gun actually fired. (Like lighting a fuse to fire the cannon). So, between the firing delay, the low ammo count per clip (maybe three shots, one per barrel), and the tendency for the shots to scatter (with perhaps some arc), it would be a medium-short range weapon that would require a decent amount of coordination.
Also, can you blame me for wanting old-school galleon broadsides?
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Although not very practical, it'd be quite amusing to see disc launchers (launched in vertical orientation). After all, who doesn't like hitting things with discs? :P