Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Puppy Fur on June 30, 2014, 03:08:01 pm
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Just some thoughts on Pyras and Junkers and how to maybe balance them so other ships are used more.
Feel free to talk about how you think balance should be.
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Pyra balance: Not longer able to hit top engine from below.
Junker balance: No longer able to hit hull from below (you still can currently).
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Pyra balance : nerf turning arcs of portside guns,
: nerf the speed,
: buff hull armor
Junker balance : nerf arcs of side guns even maybe just one side.
: nerf turning speed
:buff balloon health
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I'm glad this thread exists, will try to come up with some ideas. I had actually thought of the one for the pyramidion too, not being able to fix main engine from bottom, because as it stands the pyramidion is just too easy to engineer compared to the rest.
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I mean, we could not nerf, rather strengthen other ships.
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We could fix phoenix claw, and solve about every movement based issue with ships right now.
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What do you mean by fix phoenix claw? Phoenix claw being too good?
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Currently, one can pretty much leave claw on for quite awhile with little consequence.
As such, faster ships cant make use of their advantage since claw negates the weakness in other ships. It's most noticeable on pyras and junkers.
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We could fix phoenix claw, and solve about every movement based issue with ships right now.
This. The claw levels all ships turn speed to an almost ridicolous degree. The pyra is the ship which benefits from this the most. Even a squid has got a hard time to stay out of a clawing pyras gun arcs.
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That is a good point. Hmmmm, claw nerf would definitely be interesting.
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I mean, we could not nerf, rather strengthen other ships.
I second this:
Squid: Angle the starboard gun more towards the front, allows for more combination and usages.
Mobula: Balloon buff, Velocity buff
Galleon: Needs to be more enjoyable to fly, right now you can't see anything from the cockpit, it isn't maneuverable and isn't fast either.. Overall it is just boring to fly.. not sure what is within your limits to change.. maybe move the pilot seat? But I'm not sure, firepower wise it is balanced and good and does it's job well.. just no fun to fly imo. Maybe a balloon buff would make see more action? Or a buff to it's guns angles (Hwacha vertical angles)
Spire: Movement speed buff.
I also think the Heavy Carronade needs a nerf or a Junker balloon needs a buff as as it stands the Junker is very easily countered and therefore is very unlikely to be seen. (Edit: As a core ship that is, it is still sometimes seen as a support ship)
Anyway, this is just a short draft of my ideas.. feel free to comment and criticize!
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I agree that the junker is definitely too tanky because of the hull-repair sweet spot.
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I agree that the junker is definitely too tanky because of the hull-repair sweet spot.
The Junker is actually pretty well balanced and I hesitate to take away creative and skill based engineering tactics (as far as I'm concerned there are far too few already), it just turns a little too fast giving it almost permanent gun arcs and near instant weapon swaps. It would only need the slightest bit of turn nerfing to bring it in balance.
Pheonix claw has been OP and near mandatory for as long as I can remember.
I'm surprised no one mentioned an armor reduction for the pyra.
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Nerfing the phoenix claw a little would solve the pyra issue, but other ships would be affected just as much, for example, a galleon would then take even longer to turn. In turn of this, the angular acceleration or even top speed should then be increased.
I believe an alternitive tool to the phoenix claw would be nice. The only reason why it is a "must have" is because no other tool gives you in any way similar advantages.
What I would request is a tool that accelerates your angular speed instantly. You would turn quicker, but in total relatively slow. I am not sure though how much more than the phoenix claw would be really used...
Junkers are tanky, yes, but if you weaken it in any field you might accidentally get a galleon with lower armor/hull or a spire with less fire power. Removing that "sweet spot" fur hull repairs should nerf it enough since it would make the gungineering game harder while in combat.
Personally, I would want the "old" squid back...
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Maybe we can give repair sweet spots to the other ships. The Squids top engines can be made easier to hit from the bottom, The Goldfish could have a ramp connecting the main engine to the lower engines. And the Galleons main engine could be made easier to hit from the lower deck.
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As I making engine repair and chemspray rounds on a pyra I was thinking it was one of the easier ships to repair the engines on. I thought one way to nerf pyra a little would be to either raise or block off the main engine such that it can't be reached from between the other two engines.
However, I could also get behind Spud Nick's suggestion as it's much more upbeat
Maybe we can give repair sweet spots to the other ships. The Squids top engines can be made easier to hit from the bottom, The Goldfish could have a ramp connecting the main engine to the lower engines. And the Galleons main engine could be made easier to hit from the lower deck.
I don't think junkers need much of an adjustment
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I also think the Heavy Carronade needs a nerf or a Junker balloon needs a buff as as it stands the Junker is very easily countered and therefore is very unlikely to be seen. (Edit: As a core ship that is, it is still sometimes seen as a support ship)
I think it's pretty hilarious how up until 3 months ago consensus was Junker is op and goldfish is lowest-tier ship along with mobula, and now the community's oppinion have somehow shifted that junker needs a buff and carronade (the most used gun for a goldfish) a nerf. Hilarious truly.
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The Junker is a wonderfully min maxed ship that is either super great in capable hands or underwhelming in average hands. High armor vs low perma and great damage vs horribly vulnerable to disable, just makes it a crazy ship.
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Balancing these two ships is very hard.
I rather look at the squid, spire, goldfish some more.
Galleon and Mobula could use a little love. But thhose are pretty balanced allready.
For a first, i want the Squid to be respected, the squid needs a bit of help.
Once all ships are in good tone, then we can look at the incredibly hard to balance ships.
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Well, junkers have strong hard-counters since the flamer buff and the ship feels pretty balanced all-round imho. (it could perhaps do with a slower turn speed) The one bit of balance I would like to see is a slight armour and turn acceleration increase to the spire. I'm quite happy with all the other ships.
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As far as pyras go I've always been fond of the idea of removing the 'sweet spot' for repairing the main thrust engine from below while handling the turning engines. Because of the longer time it would take the engies to fix all three engines it would force the pilot to have to use their tools more sparingly (i.e. Moonshine, phoenix claw, etc.) and strategically when flying into an engagement.
This might solve the pyras moving or turning too quickly, its debatable sure but if there was any reason to give other ships a level playing field with the pyra then this might be one viable option.
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Anyone who thinks Junkers are still meta haven't been paying attention.
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Haha, only because the mandarins have stopped playing, and no one else can be bothered to practice that playstyle.
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It takes a lot of effort and very dedicated crew to make junkers shine. On the Mandarin junkers, all three crew positions had very specific routines which had to be trained in order for the ship to work at maximum output. Positioning is also crucial, as once a double junker team's formation is broken by a disable-heavy team, it becomes very difficult to survive, let alone win, an engagement.
Once the crew and piloting requirements are met, however, the junker probably has the most versatility and highest overall performance of any ship in the game. It is this high skill ceiling that makes it such a dangerous ship in the right hands. I would most certainly disagree with all those who think that the junker is in need of buffing, or that it is no longer meta or has a competitive role in the game.
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I feel the lack of junkers is just a current meta shift. If that is the case, then it's just the sign of a healthy meta. If we never see junkers again, then we might have an issue. Take the squid as an example of an unbalanced ship. We don't see it in competitive, which means it's probably more a balance issue than simply being out of the meta.
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So no one plays junkers at the highest level, yet it is still the meta?
We need a new definition of meta.
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Reset both ships back to the way they were before Muse nerfed them...then buff the other ships to compensate = problem solved. No more nerfing!
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Reset both ships back to the way they were before Muse nerfed them...then buff the other ships to compensate = problem solved. No more nerfing!
Do you really think balance is this simple? Or are you just making your same tired old point yet again.
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For my opinion and experience nor junker, nor pyramidion needed nerf. Junker is a very good ship and most of his strengths lie in good crew and coordination with team. If you buff this ship, then you get a biiiig problem, when experienced crew will be dominate upon all other ships.
Pyra, on other hand, is a good ship for new players. It's fun and easy, and in the hand of good pilot it's a killer ship. It also can work in different builds and roles.
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I feel the lack of junkers is just a current meta shift. If that is the case, then it's just the sign of a healthy meta. If we never see junkers again, then we might have an issue. Take the squid as an example of an unbalanced ship. We don't see it in competitive, which means it's probably more a balance issue than simply being out of the meta.
I'll show you competitive squids! (once tar is ok to use again)
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I would like to see a squid win a match without a flamethrower or carroande.
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I feel the lack of junkers is just a current meta shift. If that is the case, then it's just the sign of a healthy meta. If we never see junkers again, then we might have an issue. Take the squid as an example of an unbalanced ship. We don't see it in competitive, which means it's probably more a balance issue than simply being out of the meta.
I'll show you competitive squids! (once tar is ok to use again)
(http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130512183446/glee/images/4/41/44817-SOON-polar-bear-gif-Jcdo.gif)
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I would like to see a squid win a match without a flamethrower or carroande.
Gatling gun + forward momentum :D
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Must I break out Vods?
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wait we are talking about nerfing the pyra again? why aren't we buffing other ships or creating new ships?
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We could fix phoenix claw, and solve about every movement based issue with ships right now.
Currently, one can pretty much leave claw on for quite awhile with little consequence.
As such, faster ships cant make use of their advantage since claw negates the weakness in other ships. It's most noticeable on pyras and junkers.
This is my belief on why people dislike pyra right now.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4423.0.html
And the means of fixing it.
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I wouldn't mind seeing the pyra be given an even worse turning radius but given a buff in speed and mass.... make it the lawn dart it was always meant to be
- said maverick to the surprise of no one
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As an engie I have to say the pyra is OP because it is too easy to repair. If you compare it to any other ship, it only requires 1.2 engies (yea, 1 main engie and 1/5th of a brain of the top engie), if that, to be at 100% sprayed and full rebuild potential. It also only has 1 part that is "hard to get to" which is the back left gun, which in 99% of pyras is a flare and isn't necessary to be up in the heat of combat.
Junker requires 3 fairly coordinated people to spray, 1 hwacha will instantly disable everything, back turning engines are critical and also the furthest away to repair/rebuild, also removing your gungineer from side guns. All in all you really have to strike a balance between tank and dps. For the pyra, its front guns shooting at all times, gungineer hits balloon once while reloading, main deck is fully repairing all the time. So tanky.
Galleons are huge and sucks for the top deck - balloon, hull, main engine are all 2-3 seconds away from each other, and your main engie has to watch balloon and hull (pilot can help with balloon, but ugh), and you lose your main engie on guns once you start taking hits.
Mobulas are...well you all know how mobulas are. Requires division of labor, and even with pilot on top gun you require a lot of running around for the top deck gunner/gungineer. Also if you ever start taking hits you're basically dead anyway.
Even goldfish are harder to repair - the main engine is way back there, and a general spread of back engie and front engie still requires a 2-3 second delay between side engines and balloon (when climbing up). Only salvation is the good hull placement. Hull drops so fast hull engie will face a sophie's choice whenever the balloon goes down.
Squids too! Everyone knows the back left engine is so neglected, the ramp to the hull will glitch out if you lag even slightly, getting you stuck on the side pipes where even a split second delay means your hull is down. Front gunner has to jump down and run around to hit hull, requiring 3 seconds again.
On pyras repairing is a joke and 100% spray uptime requires no effort, allowing you to go full offense without sacrificing any tankiness.
The layout is just too good. Having a wall behind the upstairs railing so they can't jump down (have to use ladder), and blocking off the main engine from below are ways to make it a bit tougher to use than its current layout.
EDIT: actually I thought of a better solution.
Place the balloon downstairs, way in the back above the back right engine. This might seem like a boon but, if it isn't hittable from below, will require a roundabout circuit for the downstairs engie, and you will be forced to drop a gunner from the top to come down once critical components start taking damage, limiting its full offensive potential.
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It's a vanguard ship, it should be easy to repair.
Squids shouldn't, Galleons also shouldn't to counter-balance their firepower, Goldfishes are the easy to keep up considering you have 2 free engineers most of the time, Junkers are hard to keep together cause they are much more rewarding than a Pyra.
Pyramidion is mostly fine, I doupt it needs any changes, it's just popular cause it has a low skill floor, so people can pick it up more easily than other ships, this doesn't make it any better or unbalanced.
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The frustrating thing about pyramidion balance is that at lower levels of play, they seem OP, but at the higher levels their weaknesses are really apparent and easily exploited by thoughtful opponents. My knee jerk reaction to calls for the pyra to be nerfed or somehow otherwise "balanced" is: no way!
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I don't understand what is a vanguard ship.
I think these designations are pretty meaningless; at the end of the day ships are shooting and killing each other and that's it. I mean the squid is a "scout" ship or whatever, but what is its role in a meta that just them floundering and getting blown out of the sky?
The pyra is exceptional at both killing and staying alive, and suffers no tradeoffs for doing both at the same time.
2 engies on a pyra are much better at staying alive than 2 on a goldfish. For one, the hull stays up long enough so the main deck can repair something else, and the other reason being the balloon engie is only a spin away from getting on the guns again. That isn't even taking into account pyra's exceptional ramming power.
I would say it takes an exceptional junker pilot to disable/outmaneuver a pyra to the point where its 3 guns > pyra's 2 guns + ram. Also, as soon as you take damage you've lost a gun - while on a pyra, you never lose a gun unless the balloon is down, and even then that just puts you on par with any other ship.
Similarly, 2 light guns > 2 medium guns when it comes to self sufficient killing potential...counterintuitive as that seems. You need a gat strip or hades melt or something on the light gun on a galleon to kill a pyra before it has outmaneuvered you and is now raining gat + mortar down on you from above.
The mob and spire are so flimsy that frankly you could have everyone on a pyra on hull repairing and just ram them to death.
On the contrary, I find that most high level pilots seem to fly the pyra better than the other ships, simply because it is so good in good hands.
Again the problem isn't its overabundance of firepower or tankiness, it's its ability to maintain firepower and tankiness at all times during an engagement thanks to an amazing component layout.
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I find its component layout to be both a blessing and a curse personaly.. you are overestimating its capabilities..
Especially that 3-engine deck, an artemis will keep you locked down forever the moment anyone even as much as shoots 2 missiles at your back, your 'easily repeaired' engines that are so close together ain't such a boon anymore now that a guy can shoot a missile with no effort and keep you immobile forever right? I know it ain't cause I was doing it in the last tourney I played.
The hull isn't rebuilt easily after it's down and the Pyra gets easily destroyed after it's hull is down since it's a massive box of a ship that you would have to be blind to miss.
The side guns on a Pyra are also pretty much useless if not for super long range (ah the good old days of 1.2 Mercury Fests) or just some utility, since the ship is so unweildy, brawling with these guns is akward, nevermind that their elevevation is different and getting a gunner to go from upper deck to low and then back up takes forever.
The Pyra is simply a silly lawn dart, it's unweildy, stronk and easy to repair cause it's straight forward in all regards, point nose at enemy and guns blazing, thanks to being super slow to turn Junkers can circle around them all day as well and they are very easy to snipe out of the sky thanks to their massive structure.
We can talk all day, but honestly I think the ship is pretty solid, with nothing spectacular about it aside form the armored balloon.
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I like how easy the pyramidion is to engineer on so new players can get the basics down and enjoy playing while they learn without screwing everything up royally. I'm not much of a pilot, but when I have a crew of new players I take comfort in flying a pyra and knowing that things will probably be sort of okay. I think it's important to have a ship that's easier for new people to cut their teeth on before moving on to something more challenging to engineer on.
I also like the idea of buffing other ships rather than nerfing the pyra. Adding more sweet spots, making squid/goldfish engines more accessible, etc.
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Every point you brought up vs the pyra is more prominent on other ships.
With claw nothing can "run circles" around you, and the engine layout (for turning - the important engines) is the same as Junker, Galleon, Goldfish, Spire. If you've got someone on your butt you're going to have problems regardless of what you're playing.
With only the galleon being tankier than the pyra I think you're wrong in that as well - it thrives on brawling and is fantastic.
The side guns are underestimated - a well coordinated team can shoot it just as well as you would the side + front guns on a junker. If you accept that as the junker meta, you should accept a pyra can shoot 2 guns constantly in a 270 degree arc. A good gunner will know when to jump down, it takes all of 2 seconds - shorter time than it takes to run from front gun to bottom gun on a junker, same as top guns to balloon in junker. For example I served on a Rydr ship with 2 long range guns on the front and meta on the sides...people rushed it thinking for an easy kill only to have their armor half gone by the time they got there and a mortar gat staring them in the face. Similarly - it works well with ramming if you're good at predicting that.
Thats one thing that I forgot to touch on - at any point noone on the ship is more than 1-2 seconds from hull. This is ridiculous! This is basically if you took a junker and cut out the entire middle front deck, and put the balloon next to the hull - a bit of an exaggeration, but from balloon -> hull it is very easy to get down.
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If you have to put somebody from the top guns to bottom deck of the pyramidion, then the pyramidion is losing in whatever fight it is in. It can't even safe itself from any danger since only 1 of the top guns shoots at most and engines are going to be ignored since the hull is being tanked.
In this scenario the pyramidion is trying to buy time, probably for the ally to do what he needs to do.
It's big armor takes a while to be rebuild and often times won't be rebuild before the hull itself goes down (which is on par with the mobula's hull health and only better than the junker's).
A pyramidion is low on accelerations, making it hard to dodge when the time comes.
Of course a pyra could keep up with everything circling it by merely using phoenix claw, but it doesn't mean it is going to win the fight.
If a (meta-)junker circles a pyra, the junker usually wins because of higher armor. The pyramidion is damaging it's engines with phoenix claw, which will show effect in time, in an effort to keep the hull up. There will be no extra damage through ramming, because the pyra is turning.
If a squid circles a pyramidion, it could dodge the possible mortar by using superior vertical movement. Similar with the goldfish.
Pyramidion rams are only so effective, because the enemy's armor usually goes down due to the gatling or at least it is damaged and then the rams finishes it. Every ship can ram, the own armor just has to stay up.
Side guns of pyramidions could be used, but it is the pilot's own fault for not using them, if he needs them. And a beacon flare is not so bad to have there.
The pyramidion is like the pipe wrench. Every other ship in the game either has at least 3 guns shooting at the same time, even in close range, or the superior manouverbility to make up for the lack of firepower by simply not being hit.
How is the pyramidion better than any of these? That was a sarcistic question, because it isn't better, it's just not the worst. And I honestly believe this is the only strength the pyramidion has.
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With claw nothing can "run circles" around you, and the engine layout (for turning - the important engines) is the same as Junker, Galleon, Goldfish, Spire. If you've got someone on your butt you're going to have problems regardless of what you're playing.
The ships that should be able to, can, Squids and Junkers will circle a Pyra for more than enough time than they need to disable or kill it, even with Claw, your turn accel is still slow as hell.
No, the engine layout is not the same, you can shoot the Pyra's ass and hit all 3 engines no problem by not even aimming for them, try doing the same at the Junker's turning engines and your shots will start going inbetween them, Goldfish also has its engines seperated and can deal with such threads way more easily thanks to always having 2 engineers on board to repair, the Pyra only ever has one down there or it loses effective firepower, the Spire's engines are all way more spread out.
I've got nothing on the Galleon, but that ship is the easiest to disable anyway, doesn't negate the Pyra's weakness.
With only the galleon being tankier than the pyra I think you're wrong in that as well - it thrives on brawling and is fantastic.
I never said it's a bad brawler?.. I said it's side guns are a horrible choice for an extended close up fight.
The side guns are underestimated - a well coordinated team can shoot it just as well as you would the side + front guns on a junker. If you accept that as the junker meta, you should accept a pyra can shoot 2 guns constantly in a 270 degree arc. A good gunner will know when to jump down, it takes all of 2 seconds - shorter time than it takes to run from front gun to bottom gun on a junker, same as top guns to balloon in junker. For example I served on a Rydr ship with 2 long range guns on the front and meta on the sides...people rushed it thinking for an easy kill only to have their armor half gone by the time they got there and a mortar gat staring them in the face. Similarly - it works well with ramming if you're good at predicting that.
No they aren't underestimated, they are simply not as viable as the front guns thanks to the ship design, the Pyra is shit at turning, so the side guns aren't as useful cause it can't realy use them up close to circle anyone for extended time, they are good for longer range engages or very short usage, or if you want, utility weapons like the flare. Also people rushing a frontal sniper Pyra aren't the best examples to discuss balance around, you could win those engages if you ran sniper side / brawler front as well with no difference at all, so your argument there is kinda moot IMO.
Thats one thing that I forgot to touch on - at any point noone on the ship is more than 1-2 seconds from hull. This is ridiculous! This is basically if you took a junker and cut out the entire middle front deck, and put the balloon next to the hull - a bit of an exaggeration, but from balloon -> hull it is very easy to get down.
The thing is, the Pyramidion is a massive armor hitbox, most of the ship, even around the balloon is armor, which means even if it has 650 armor points, they can easily get stripped cause gatlings and hades will rarely miss a Pyra's armor, which makes it considerably less tanky than it seems to be, plus its perma is low enough so after its armor is down, the hull wil probably die as well 90% of the time, so it makes sense that you would want a lot of people close to the hull at all times, but ifyou take people off of guns to start rebuilding, you are already losing.
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I don't really know what to say here, except that "taking people off guns to rebuild means you're losing" is pretty much the same for every single ship?
I haven't played too many competitive matches or scrims but I can tell you there is at least 1, if not 2, or 3 pyras in every single match I've seen. And it is by far the easiest to keep up in a fight.
Its easy to say "a junker can turn circles around a pyra" but you don't also say "or a pyra can just zoom in and ram it out of arc".
Its easy to say "you can shoot the butt of a pyra" but you don't say "a pyra can also shoot your butt...?" and also "if you're in that position you have done something wrong".
You talk about both disable and hull strip as if it is a pyra's job to be hit by both with no counter, as if it is sitting there in a 1v2 with enemies on its butt with no forward acceleration, as if the pyra isn't usually the one dictating the state of engagement with its "lawn dart" zoom in focus.
I hope we can at least agree that the pyra's setup is by far the easiest ship to repair.
I think you will also find that there is a reason it is called the metamidion and that you see an overwhelming majority of pilots fly pyras and do well with them, with a variety of gun setups.
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Pyra is definitely easy to use and get everyone on the same page with, even new players. In fact, some of the more popular and effective loadouts are very user friendly.
Additionally, it is the most requested ship when I fly, because you essentially get two gunners - and shooting guns is awesome.
Definitely strong / almost overpowered at lower skill levels, but I've flown with some better crews when my friends aren't on and those and other ships are really good, but harder to use / need gunners that can fire harder to aim weapons.
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So you are essentially saying the pyramidion can move forward and that leads to victory? Simply shooting at a charging pyra does enough damage for it to back up and if not most ships dodge it. Not to mention how many times a pyra has rammed its own guns out of arc or destroyed its engines in hope to finally get the ram just to then be stuck with no engines while beinh shot at, even on competitive level.
I don't really know what to say here, except that "taking people off guns to rebuild means you're losing" is pretty much the same for every single ship?
Exactly, how does that make the pyra better than any other ship? Because it's "easier"?
I hope we can at least agree that the pyra's setup is by far the easiest ship to repair.
It's easy to repair because it's weak.
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I am unsure what you mean by weak, is the problem.
And my point was entirely that the pyra can fire longer while maintaining its level of "tankiness" while other ships cannot.
Furthermore no other ship can have a fully sprayed and repaired ship (what I mean by this is the distance in the spray circuits) with only 2 engineers, nor the division of duty the pyra can bring.
And as to "easier"...sure! I'd gladly say the pyra is easier, and this makes it good. I don't think the "harder" ships bring anything more to the table that a well piloted pyra cannot counter.
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Uh, every other ship in the game brings something different, countering said things is not a matter of ship vs ship arguments only since this is a team game.
The Pyra will never be as fast and nimble as a Squid
It will not be as fast as the Goldfish nor have it's tremendous hull power with a fast rebuilt armor, it also doesn't have a heavy gun.
The Junker will always outmanuver a Pyra at close range and it's also a better sniper since it can starfe while firing thanks its broadside guns, it also turns way faster than a Pyra could dream of turning. Its armor hitbox is only its tiny frame which makes it very resistant to anti-armor guns
It will never match the sheer firepower of a Galleon
It also doesn't have the awesome dodging abilities of a Mobula in open spaces, or 5 guns on the front.
The Spire is still bad, we do not talk about the Spire.
See, the Pyra is a jack of all trades but master of none, it's a medium ship, it's effective and easy to run, but it's not better at specific roles than any other ship, it's not a spectacular ship by any margin, it's just effective.
I agree its easy to run, but that doesn't make it better, it's still a lawn dart, a heavy one at that.
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Just to point out, the 2 ships most commonly accused of being OP are the Pyramidion and Junker. The only ships with 2 light guns facing exactly the same direction are the Pyramidion and Junker. Coincidence? I think not.
These ships give you easy weapon combos along with respectable maneuverability and respectable repairability. The Galleon is next in terms of guns facing exactly the same direction, but with such a maneuverability problem that it is often left helpless. Spires have guns facing together, but have maneuverability and durability problems. Mobula has guns facing together but has mobility and repairability problems. Goldfish and squid don't have good arcs.
These 2 ships are strong because of the damage type gameplay that GoIO features. A single gun is insufficient (almost) always. You need to blend 2 guns together. Pyra and Junker offer this without serious drawbacks, or rather without drawbacks that can be partially covered with piloting tools.
The fact that these ships have a high skill ceiling and such strong relevance in high level play is a better indicator that other ships are lacking in payoff than that these 2 are lacking in drawbacks.
Consider these 2 ships to be the beginner ships. In a normal game, you beginner ships will be your warrior, your melee type, the average brute. Once you have done well with this you might branch out and try a more skilled character type, like magic or ranged. These types have clear drawbacks, but also the potential to be stronger or more helpful to a team. We have seen teams do this with the Galleon and Goldfish, and a very few teams work it with a squid or spire. Mobulas have also made an appearance.
If these ships aren't doing so well, it indicates that they have insufficient reward for their drawbacks. Like a squishy mage without a powerful area of effect spell, or a weak bard who can barely buff his allies. It isn't that these 2 ships are too good, it's that all the other ones don't have quite enough upside, or maybe a little too much downside.
Consider a random example - take the squid, remove 4/5 of its permahull and add a 4th gun on the front-right of the ship pointed 45 degrees right of forwards. Huge downside, but what an upside. The killing power of the squid would skyrocket, but it would die so very easily. Is that balanced or even a good idea? Probably not. But now the squid gets an upside worthy of its downside - the ability to kill quickly.
TL;DR: Pyra/Junker are fine, other ships just don't have enough upside - buffs/radical changes to ships give more real changes than nerfs of what we have.
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TL;DR: Pyra/Junker are fine, other ships just don't have enough upside - buffs/radical changes to ships give more real changes than nerfs of what we have.
i cant agree with this more and have been saying this for soo long about so many different subjects!
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TL;DR: Pyra/Junker are fine, other ships just don't have enough upside - buffs/radical changes to ships give more real changes than nerfs of what we have.
Stop talking wisdom redria :P
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Stop talking wisdom redria :P
i cant agree with this more and have been saying this for soo long about so many different subjects!
Please also note that I didn't say that speed is the answer. I think that the ships are actually pretty well balanced in terms of speed. And the guns are mostly in good places right now. I rewatched a video or two from a year ago and laughed at how absurdly far gatling guns and mortars fired.
No, the solution to any perceived imbalance is not going to be as easy or simple as reverting to any old numbers or buffing a single aspect of something. The best solutions are going to be outside-of-the-box. Perhaps Muse already has a solution or two in mind.
The trickiest part is how intricately everything is linked. Changing something to help a weak ship might make an average ship overpowered.
Consider the Galleon. The upside is the massive firepower and durability. The downside is the awful maneuverability and easy disabling.
My first instinct would be to buff the upside. But making the Galleon more durable won't really help it. It is already tanky enough. Adding to that will just make you take longer to die with no guns and no balloon. Buffing the guns' firepower would be good, but then you inherently buff the goldfish firepower too, which could easily make it OP.
The alternative is to reduce the downsides. Buffing maneuverability or preventing disabling. However, a maneuverability buff sufficient to help the galleon would quickly make it to difficult to fight. It is in a good place for maneuvering. A solution might be a new tool that does double Claw turning speed, but triple damage. Galleons have more engine health and could handle a harsher tool. Another solution might be something that helps protect the guns from being disabled. This would give Galleons the opportunity to use their guns when they have the chance.
I want to see what Muse pulls together to help change the meta before I advocate any real change suggestions. I think there are clever ideas and solutions already being worked on and I'd love to see them in action before thinking any further on this.
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Possible solution to the galleon is to have the side heavy guns be moved slightly inward into the ship, so they cannot so easily be disabled from the front/skewed angle.
If they can be disabled from the side thats fine - because the galleon is capable of broadsiding at that angle too.
But on the approach the guns are very vulnerable.
For squid I think adding a walkway between the two turning engines will go a long way to making it easier to repair.
You then also have a neat separation of duties - back engie takes all 4 engines and back gun, mid engie takes side gun and balloon/hull, front takes front gun+hull/balloon.
The spire I think is just too big of a target and too flimsy - more armor is needed, or otherwise you'll never get the 3/4 guns firing for more than a second once you start taking damage. I'm okay with the spire instapopping as soon as hull is down.
Mobula I think a corridor in the middle of the ship between the hull and balloon would be awesome, might make it too easy to repair though.
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I don't think speed is necessarily the answer (as I have said previously I think speed would make things more fun. I never thought speed was an auto fix). I do think there are times when we have reverted to the way things were in the past and it was for the better(see flamer). the main thing I want us to do is shift out mindset, I have been saying this since beta. when we find a ship, weapon combo, or play style, used often and effectively I think we should not have the mentality of "let's make this thing weaker" but rather, as you have said, "let's make something else better or create something entirely new"
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I'm starting to think the pyra is only unbalanced in competitive, mainly because it is too easy to repair, chem spray and buff.
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I'm starting to think the pyra is only unbalanced in competitive, mainly because it is too easy to repair, chem spray and buff.
The pyramidion is not unbalanced in competitive, it is merely popular, many of the competitive pilots flew pyramidions pre-allofthenerfstopyramidion and are comfortable flying them and so continued to fly them, I am still far more afraid of junkers which are even easier to repair, chem spray, and buff, and have more armour along with more guns.
Popular =|= OP
DO NOT NERF THE PYRA AGAIN PLEASE.
~GeoRmr's Secret instantly balance the game completely and forever ~
Buff spire armour and nerf its hull, buff squid hull, nerf junker turning speed, and add another close range heavy weapon.
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Would the game be too unbalanced if all the ships were easy to buff and spray like the pyra?
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I for one am so ready for a change to the pyra.
I am absolutely so sick of being able to predict a loadout as soon as i see a pyramidion. As well as pretty much expecting to see pyramidions whenever I play. It's getting a little bit boring to be totally honest. Talking of boring, I agree with everyone about engineering on a pyramidion being far too easy. For me engineering is about running around like a mad man during a firefight having to make split second decisions on what to repair etc. and therefore feeling really rewarded for manging to stay alive. This simply does not happen on a pyramidion.
As for junkers i agree with what has been said about junkers only being good with the correct crew. Their massive balloon is a massive counter to them and a buffed artemis w/ burst is pretty effective against it's closely spaced components on bottom deck (whatcha gonna do with like 1 gun and no main engine).
I do think that the hull 'sweet' spot is pretty stupid though either remove it or give the underused (UU) ships 'sweet' spots too.
In summary. Nerf pyra- engi too easy. Junkers are okay. UU ships will be good with sweet spots.
And some thoughts about other ships.
Spires are too squishy.
Galleons are too easy to disable and the view whilst pilot is quite obstructed, they are fat and slow, but perhaps too much so?.
Squids die too easily.
Goldfish are good on the whole tbh. Just co-ordinate with your co-engi. Since the side guns are by no means vital. Leaving 2 engis to do things.
Mobulas cannot cope under fire as there is only realistically going to be one engi on hull/balloon. Making them also too squishy. (Alternately pyra can still have a gun firing and still be tanky.)
Oh and yeah Phoenix claw OP.
Feel free to let me know if I'm thinking about this all wrong cos I probably am.
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I could do without the massive tree trunk behind me on a Galleon tbh, not sure how to remove that realistically tho xD
Also people should stop trying to nerf whatever they see others use the most realy, even if you nerf the Pyra (which realy doesn't need any nerfing now that Gat/Mortar ain't as ridiculously powerful as it used to be) people will pick an other ship and then you will see people using it a lot, what will you do then, nerf the next ship?
Truth be told, Pyras are overused cause they are just simple to run in a public match as well as still relatively effective in competitive, Galleons reaquire a highly skilled crew to run properly, Junkers as well. Thanks to the way damage types work in this game the Goldfish will not always be preferred since it can't reliably kill a ship by itself and when it does, it's usually not within a reasonable ammount of time. Spires are still too squishy and most people will probably give up on them after 1-2 tries of getting instagibbed, same goes with most people that try the Mobula.
eh.. I guess I should admit that the Pyra is a bit too easy, but what can you even do to make it slightly harder to run without hurting the ship a lot realy? The ship is not outstanding by any margin.. it's just easier for newbies to run than other ships so most people end up using it later as well.
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The roles of the ships come into play a lot here as well. Not every ship is effective as a kill ship. Most of them operate better with a disabling build or some type of control setup. I think it is important to remember this when we talk about ship use.
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Feel free to let me know if I'm thinking about this all wrong cos I probably am.
Ok.
I for one am so ready for a change to the pyra.
I am absolutely so sick of being able to predict a loadout as soon as i see a pyramidion. As well as pretty much expecting to see pyramidions whenever I play. It's getting a little bit boring to be totally honest.
That's a player choose. It is the same to say that every goldfish is a blenderfish and every junker a metajunker or how every galleon is lumberjack/flak/hades on the one side with hwacha/carro other.
I do think that the hull 'sweet' spot is pretty stupid though either remove it or give the underused (UU) ships 'sweet' spots too.
Removing the sweet spot of tha pyra would nerf it. What's a pyra without speed?
But if that is removed than the galleon, mobula and squid sweet spots might be taken out too.
And some thoughts about other ships.
Spires are too squishy.
Galleons are too easy to disable and the view whilst pilot is quite obstructed, they are fat and slow, but perhaps too much so?.
Squids die too easily.
Goldfish are good on the whole tbh. Just co-ordinate with your co-engi. Since the side guns are by no means vital. Leaving 2 engis to do things.
Mobulas cannot cope under fire as there is only realistically going to be one engi on hull/balloon. Making them also too squishy. (Alternately pyra can still have a gun firing and still be tanky.)
All of these depend on the engagements.
A Spire could kill a metamidion in front it. Galleons can kill a ship more reliably than a metamidion or instantly disable everything as well as simply keeping the enemy out of combat by destroying its balloon. Squids should use their manouverbility to not die (of course hwacha and carronades are basic counters as well as they are for every other ship in the game). A Goldfish not using side guns loses a lot of potential.
And Mobula, I am going to say this once and I hope I don't have to repeat myself, because it is annoying that so many people call it a "squishy" ship:
In your average match a whole lot of 1 guy stands on either hull or balloon. On certain ships not even a mallet/spanner is on the balloon but a simple pipe wrench and the balloon buff which the Mobula, in my opinion, rarely needs as well as that more repair/rerbuild power with mallet/spanner on the balloon.
In a whole lot of ships, if you start tanking with 2 guys on hull and/or balloon you a probably going to die soon anyway. In case of Mobula there is probably a gunner or buff engineer on top deck that has the power to use guns to possible disable or even kill the enemy, saving the Mobula, instead of wasting time on a silly desperate attempt to survive a second longer. If the enemy is behind the Mobula so that the guns are ineffective and the pilot cannot bring them in arc in time, he fucked up, regardless of what ship is being used.
If not both hull and balloon are dying, but only one of these than it is no different from a pyra since at least 2 guns are shooting. And nobody dares to call the inferior pyra a "squishy" ship.
Oh and, phoenix claw on Mobula is useless, for Spires and Squids optional and on Junker it depends on wether you use an asymmetrical or not and how the engagement happens. If a Junker gets surprised from behind it's probably saver to bring phoenix claw since the Junker can hold it's ground a bit with the high armor.
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And Mobula, I am going to say this once and I hope I don't have to repeat myself, because it is annoying that so many people call it a "squishy" ship
Just to clarify, at least regarding my post about people getting squished in Spires and Mobulas, I was talking about why people pick what ships they do in Pubs with randoms and it's mostly true most people get asolutely wrecked in said ships.
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I am unsure if a spire can outfight a pyra face to face.
Assuming the spire is double gat mortar hwacha or something, if the pyra dodges the hwacha (not terribly hard to do, with great downwards arcs on top guns and the verticalness of the spire), I feel they have a very high chance of winning the engagement.
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I am unsure if a spire can outfight a pyra face to face.
Assuming the spire is double gat mortar hwacha or something, if the pyra dodges the hwacha (not terribly hard to do, with great downwards arcs on top guns and the verticalness of the spire), I feel they have a very high chance of winning the engagement.
The spire can have a secret weapon that takes full advantage of how pyramidions work.
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What would that secret weapon happen to be?
Sniping guns? Won't stay at effective range for long, because a Metamidion WILL go for the ram if the effective range of an enemy ship is larger than it.
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Just some random thoughts.
On the Pyramidian, all crew members are 2 seconds max away from the hull at all times. I think this is what makes them seem harder to kill. I know some pilots that actually fix their own hull. Both gunners have an easy jump to the hull, which should really be leg-breaking. My suggestion is to raise the catwalk railings so they can not be jumped, and top deck crew have to use the ladder to get down. This adds almost a second of travel time for the right gunner to the hull, and 1.5 seconds to the balloon gunner. It also puts them on level ground with the Spire and Galleon.
As far as hitting all the engines, I suggest leaving this aspect, but adding a twist. Lower the main engine so it is even easier to hit (and makes more sense being able to hit it in the first place), and actually add a second smaller engine over it. Reduce the main engine output by 1/3, but bring it back up with the power output of the smaller engine. Or, remove the one large engine and replace it with a stack of two equal small engines with 1/2 output. The engineer then has the choice of quick repair of three engines (2 seconds max) and losing some mobility, or a 5 second cycle, or bringing back a second engineer. I think we would see more use of the side guns with this change.
I think the junker is fine the way it is as far as guns and maneuverability. Its big weakness is its huger balloon. Its huge benefit is its tiny hull. I think it seems so tanky sometimes because half the shots miss. Once a Junker's balloon is down and all that lovely canvas becomes hull, they go down pretty fast. My suggestion to balance this out is simply by making more hull and less balloon. Make more of the framework around the balloon part of the hull hitbox. Make the under-slung sails a bit larger as well.
As other have said as well, 'buff' the other ships by adding more repair options and mobility. Move the Spire turning engines closer together, and add small ladder and platform to access the top engine from below.
Give the Mobula two more small engines on the top deck 'wings' and give it faster turning (a little slower turning than it has now if those top engines burn out). Add in an 'emergency repair' room down a ladder at the rear of the helm room that accesses both the hull and balloon, but nothing else.
Lower the Squid engine hotpoints so they can be more easily hit from below, and give the pilot back some ability to fix the hull.
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For my 2 scents,
Give the Spire an acceleration buff from 3.00 to 6.00
This can help the spire use its body more, and react better versus shots like hades, rams or most importantly, get better positioning.
Squids vertical meneuverability needs to be almost that of a mobula so it has a second alternative to engines as a means of escape or approach.
This makes the squid almost hopeless to chase against, and when his engines are down a quick chute or hydro will still let the squid escape.
Mobula is pretty fine on my eyes as it is saturated enough to what it offers.
Most ships are allready saturated to the point of its own personality and use.
Like my example of the spire, if its so tower like, why cant it be difficult to hit? Not only that it should be easier to position with a cone like that than a long ship like galleon.
Or the squid, its fast and its weapons dont exactly combat a ship but an alternative that helps its allready fast meneuverability to swop around ships at all times or escape. Being extremely enviornment aware like it should be.