Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Hoja Lateralus on June 30, 2014, 02:28:02 am
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I know that Muse is doing everything to make lobbies dissapear. But for the time being it's the only way to play and I think some control would be useful. I mean the ability to kick / move people either by creator of the game or the captains. Many times had I had a situation when one person would spoil the match for the rest of the crew (for example a greenhorn who decided to be a second gunner on the squid) and I think it's the problem worth looking into it.
Pros:
-Games will be more competetive
-Ability to remove trolls or other unpleasant people from the game/team
Cons:
-Greenhorns can be stigmatized and rejected by more experienced players
-Also potential for trolling
I suggest this would be a vote-based kick from the team, and it wouldn't kick the player to the lobby, only move him to be spectator (so if he wants he can join another team). There's also an option that while making a game we can decide whether kick option is availible or not - then browsing through a lobby we could choose if we want a kick-able or non-kick-able lobby.
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Hi Mr.Disaster,
Kicking is an option that in game mods and admins have, if there is an issue that can not be resolved please contact a CA Mod to help smooth the situation over.Like you stated in your post the cons are new players will be rejected by people who are more experienced and we have all been in situations were a new player joins doesn't really know what to do and just wants to shoot things and gets shouted at. This is an issue we are trying to resolve with the matchmaking so the lobbies are more balanced and streamlined. As for games being more competitive in pub games i don't really see it, perhaps join a clan that scrims and enters tournaments to scratch that itch. pub games are the place for fun and practice and should not be taking to seriously, at the end of the day the main aim for the game is to have fun with it.
If you have any other issues or questions regarding kicking or getting in touch with somone who can help with trouble players feel free to email me at greyt@musegames.com. Or if you have some ideas on how we can still deal with the issues without kicking perhaps somthing matchmaking does not cover, please email feedback@musegames.com.
Thanks
Kind regards and Safe Skies
Grey T
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Even tho I agree that a kick function would be bad I have to say it's a really dumb stance to take that pubs "are just for fun don't take it seriously". Some people my self included loves the challenge of perfecting their play, as such we have more fun being serious. I don't feel jokers/trolls should be given a free card to mess with that just because it's a pub lobby.
As well not we everyone have the time to dedicate or even the skill to partake in the competitive seen. They will most likely get the skill in time, but maybe they want to play "competitively" on a lower skill level and not be trolled or hated on?
Ti;dr don't use pub lobby's as an excuse for trolls or hostile behaviour.
Best wishes Hillerton:-)
Ps no hard feelings, just seen this excuse a few to many times from ppl trolling:-(
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Trolls and hostile behavior can be dealt with, But there is those who do not troll, and simply pick up the game on the weekends for an hour or two,
These people might be new to the game and just want to shoot nothing more nothing less, but because they are not high enough level they might get kicked or the fact they might be hunting an ammo achievement also might get kicked that is why i say kicking would be a bad idea,
But also because they do not change class, or ammo, is that trolling? Forcing someone to do something or leave sounds more abusive and hostile than the person who is just wanting to shoot or get that last achievement.
We have ca mods with the ability to remove trolls but also you can not force people to play exactly how you want them to, the risk of public lobbies is you have to deal with everyday players not just vets of the game or serious crowd,
I can see where your coming from, but i also think clans should try to arrange friendly matches to perfect and train with there clan rather than pub lobbies or invite people you know will play serious. Because the bigger picture is there are more people who do not play serious than those that do, and if them people are discouraged then the competitive community will not grow, and we will get a rift of elitism and divide which is obviously the worse case scenario everybody spends money on the same game long as they don't break the rules they can play however they want, double gunner all mine ships long as they enjoy the game no one has the right to stop them like i say if they are following the rules,
I hope you can understand where i am coming from :) i can see both sides but somtimes you just got to accept that you will get players who want to take heavy for the merc or 2 gunner mobula :)
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Should probably clarify that I'm not arguing for a kick funktion or forcing any thing, but rather against the part that you shouldn't take pub lobbies seriously. As for newer players that is all their is.
I have seen this argument been used a lot to justify trolling or other behaviour that can ruin the fun for some players. I'm all for pll having a laugh but not sure if it should be on the cost of someone else's fun. And arguments like "don't take pub lobbies to serusily" can easily be used as an excuse to do so.
So you are totally right about kicks and controlling the lobby. Just don't like to see arguments that can and have been used to support trolling and running the fun for players used as an excuse from muse why to not have a kick (I do count you as muse even if it's your personal opinion)
And of course a difference has to be made between newer or unknowing players and trolls;-)
But yes I totally see what you mean to say and is just nitpicking as I don't like that one part of your argument and have 3 hours to kill;-P
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I have played only for 24 hrs, but it was enough to notice that everyone agrees on one thing.
Most common thing that prolongs the waiting, is the 1 guy that refuses to listen and take the gear required of him. Endless frustration of captains who compiled the guns on they`r ships in a specific way, and ask the crew to pick up a certain ammo type or a tool to buff, with zero response from the certain members of the crew)
My proposition is, give a higher lvl captains power to choose loadouts and maby classes for lower level players, sort of crew recruitment) And give an option to comply or leave the crew. And I repeat, only for higher lvl captains, so the authority on the matter will not be questioned.
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The accepted way of dealing with that one guy who doesn't listen is to abandon him. Find a slot on another ship, (preferably one that will be shooting at the guy). Sometimes an entire lobby will relocate if a well liked captain says he/she doesn't want to fly with a certain player. If the offending player persists in following you get a mod involved (they are usually lurking in global chat), they do have kick powers. If there is a clear chat log of this person following you in spite of your requests to the contrary you have grounds to say it is harassment.
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Then you tell 15 or more people to sacrifice themselves for the sake of one who is unwilling to cooperate. That's a little crazy for me. Our community is really friendly and I strongly believe that nobody would use kick option if it wasn't a last resort.
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Then you tell 15 or more people to sacrifice themselves for the sake of one who is unwilling to cooperate. That's a little crazy for me. Our community is really friendly and I strongly believe that nobody would use kick option if it wasn't a last resort.
Kicking system has as much chance for a trolling tool as it does for something that helps combat it.
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Hypothetically if a kick function was in,
3 votes from the ship to kick 1 member from the ship
6 votes from the team to kick from the team,
12 to kick from lobby
would be a nice way to do it, However What would be the point in Moderators? and what would stop people from kicking level 1s from a high level game, or somone who wants to gun or run a fun/silly build?
Like i said before kicking has more flaws perhaps a better way to contact a mod might be a better option,
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As I said - our community is really friendly. I've actually never seen real trolls, and never seen a high(er) lvl player to discriminate or humiliate the low lvl player. People only get nervous when they see unreachable greenhorns without any will to listen or cooperate, not mentioning they even shouldn't be in normal (called "advanced") games. I'd rather see this option really limited (like - give it only for people with lvl 10 in Pilot) than not to see it at all. The solution mentioned by Grey T is also some compromise which I would be willing to give a shot.
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Then you tell 15 or more people to sacrifice themselves for the sake of one who is unwilling to cooperate. That's a little crazy for me. Our community is really friendly and I strongly believe that nobody would use kick option if it wasn't a last resort.
Any one who has played GOI for a long period of time can sympathize with having to deal with an uncooperative crew member. I have seen full 16 person games empty out and reform in a new lobby because of one troll. It is not so much of a sacrifice as an inconvenience of having to join game on the guy who said "I am going to form a new lobby" and reform your crew. I think it also conveys message "nobody likes you" better to the troll when 15 people turn their back on him simultaneously.
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Or you can just send me a message on Steam I'm almost always around I'll come help you handle the situation;.
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@ Grey T:
Even though I don't mind, I would like to point out, what's fun for some doesn't necessarily reflect on others as fun. You're doing this because you think it's fun, but others might find it frustrating, because a Galleon with flamethrowers only is outright stupid.
A veto would be the best of both worlds, so you don't need to rely on moderators. If someone goes a "trolly" build, and the majority finds it annoying rather than interesting, then the one captain should cater to the majority than the majority catering to the single captain.
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You can't have a Galleon with only flamethrowers >.>
Flamethrowers only can be quite effective in pub matches <.<
I get your point, but if you don't like a build on a ship... just move to a different one.
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Whether it's possible or not is completely irrelevant. Whether I disagree with the build or not is also completely irrelevant. You're absolutely missing the point.
Edit: Read my post once more. Majority is the key word here.
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Whether it's possible or not is completely irrelevant. Whether I disagree with the build or not is also completely irrelevant. You're absolutely missing the point.
Edit: Read my post once more. Majority is the key word here.
You're a level 9 pilot one achievment away from level 10, it is a harpoon achievement, Your favorite ship is the pyra, So you put harpoon mortar on the front of your pyra, 3 players from a clan join and tear your build to pieces, saying its silly doesn't make sense, we want you to fly gat mortar or we are going to kick you for trolling.
The situation above could very well happen, now 2 things you would have to change because of majority* by what you are saying and because if you do not they will kick you because they do not care about achievments only winning maybe one of them is wanted. does that sound fun? Not only can you now not get your achievement you are running somthing you do not want to fly, if you protest you get greeted with well find another lobby, even though you made this one.
The majority or not fly what build you want to fly There is times where it is just trolling like all flare mobula for instance, even then though if you are with a few friends on the ship and the other captain complains do you change ship?
I have been thinking alot lately about the ethics and unwritten rules of the game and how people interpret trolling/just having some fun and taking the game lightly. there is a fine line. I get a lot of reports for very simple things.
''He is a noob'' look at his level he has been playing about 30 minutes level 1-1-1,
''He would not get off the gun'' and they have only played matches as gunner, or ''the shot my gun as engineer''
Like goldenglade said Mods are available to handle any trolls you might accounter and they are experinced enough to differentiate between people who are new/having fun/trolling,
CA's are in the game alot to discourage trolling and help new players understand the core mechanics of the game and any problems players might be having. Kicking them is not the answer i feel,
Only the other day i was on desert scrap and i took and all mine junker, and my crew started calling me a troll and complaining because i don't play to win ect the other captain took a spire i think and complained the whole lobby time, But i just reassured them it will be fine to trust me, or there is other lobbies to join feel free ill ready up when you want so i don't run Ai.
Obviously like alot of people would of relised Munker on scrap is Op and we won 600-0 my crew could not stop laughing and having a good time firing the mines we died twice i think and no one was angry, my co captain was raging so hard because he kept dying and i told him not to worry its just a game and we had basically won.
What can be interpreted as trolling might have a good underlying reason. Player is not communicating do they speak english? do they have voice chat on? are they chilling out listening to music?
Somtimes best thing you can do in a lobby to control them is to take a step back wait a few minutes then seek help, Wether it be an afk player who has just went downstairs for a drink, or a player who does not speak/understand much english but loves the game, these people could be reported/kicked for reasons that do not require it.
So if you do encounter a troll please seek help from a CA or Mod even one of the devs if we are on. we have the tools to help but make sure they are trolling first :), Also if there is somthing you think could help the situation please feel free to email feedback@musegames.com.
Kind Regards and Safe Skies
Grey T
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So let me off rail this topic completely, but what if instead of a kick function they make it clearer who to talk to, and easier to find the CA button? (like a huge button placed somewhere where it is not camouflaged as a part of the schedule thingy) I know it took me for ever before I meet my first CA and learned what they where when I first started, so maybe that is the actual problem? If you don't know who to turn to and have trouble in a lobby then a kick function will seem nice. When you know that the CAs are there then you can do something, and that changes things around.
I've actually never seen real trolls, and never seen a high(er) lvl player to discriminate or humiliate the low lvl player.
Lets be honest here I would accredit this almost entirely to the fact that their is no kick function (the nature of the game helps as well but patients drys up fast after a few games with bad randoms). The fact is that high lvl players can't discriminate but instead have to teach. And I'm sure to somewhat degree it would still be done but I do believe more often than not the time-span you would have to adjust equipment and get an idea of what should be done in the lobby would be much, much smaller than it is now (as in one line in crew chat small). Not to mention the fact that more often than not high lvl players have one or more friend in the lobby, and then kicking the newer/random player and getting your friend in that slot will be really tempting, on all lvls I would believe.
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So let me off rail this topic completely, but what if instead of a kick function they make it clearer who to talk to, and easier to find the CA button? (like a huge button placed somewhere where it is not camouflaged as a part of the schedule thingy) I know it took me for ever before I meet my first CA and learned what they where when I first started, so maybe that is the actual problem? If you don't know who to turn to and have trouble in a lobby then a kick function will seem nice. When you know that the CAs are there then you can do something, and that changes things around.
I've actually never seen real trolls, and never seen a high(er) lvl player to discriminate or humiliate the low lvl player.
Lets be honest here I would accredit this almost entirely to the fact that their is no kick function (the nature of the game helps as well but patients drys up fast after a few games with bad randoms). The fact is that high lvl players can't discriminate but instead have to teach. And I'm sure to somewhat degree it would still be done but I do believe more often than not the time-span you would have to adjust equipment and get an idea of what should be done in the lobby would be much, much smaller than it is now (as in one line in crew chat small). Not to mention the fact that more often than not high lvl players have one or more friend in the lobby, and then kicking the newer/random player and getting your friend in that slot will be really tempting, on all lvls I would believe.
I really support making the CA button easier to find.... especially as I don't even know where it is now.
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@ Grey T:
Now that it was elaborated so well, I can definitely see your point of view. I didn't realize players would be that strict about an undefined / undeveloped meta, however, in a defined / developed meta like in CS / LoL / NS2, players definitely are very strict about how others have to follow the meta to the T. Though I'm still inclined for a veto than moderators.
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@ Grey T:
Now that it was elaborated so well, I can definitely see your point of view. I didn't realize players would be that strict about an undefined / undeveloped meta, however, in a defined / developed meta like in CS / LoL / NS2, players definitely are very strict about how others have to follow the meta to the T. Though I'm still inclined for a veto than moderators.
This game has a competitive scene, and the different meta strategies are pretty obvious and developed imho.
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@ GeoRmr:
Where is this competitive scene exactly? I've checked ESL, ESEA and IRC (QuakeNet and GameSurge). Does it have its own gather system like ENSL?
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@ GeoRmr:
Where is this competitive scene exactly? I've checked ESL, ESEA and IRC (QuakeNet and GameSurge). Does it have its own gather system like ENSL?
Nothing like that. There's no organization that runs it, it's all community driven https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/board,51.0.html is probably the best info you'll get.
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Pretty much every competetive event is organized through the community events section in the forums here.
Not much else to say.
Hephaestus Challenge is the current main event organized in a league system followed by two elimination brackets.
THe other competetive event we currently have is the Sunday Community Skirmish.
An open Single elimination bo3 tournament.
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@ Imagine & Alistair MacBain:
Ah, that's pretty cool. I'll try to ask my friends if we can't try this some time, though we would have to play as subs, since we don't have 8 players. Thanks for the info.
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You can also join a clan. Or just team up with others. Just have to look what each tournament needs beforehand.
Hephaestus for example cant be entered atm. Would need to wait for next season. But SCS is a nice and quick start in competetive aswell ^^.
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@ Alistair MacBain:
We'll definitely ask for tryouts, but we would need subs for our own crew, too, because not everyone can play when needed. SCS looks fun to try out as well. Again, thanks for showing me this; I really want to try this game out in a competitive setting, since it's really hard to find someone who would beat our asses red and blue. I'm sure this is the right place. :)
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Well for the start non novice lobbys would be a try aswell ;).
Cause your probably getting slaughtered in competetive. Nth gainst you but the average games played for competetive is at around 1k games played i guess. Atleast 500 + ^^.
But besides that theres always cakes iron fork of friday to join if your fast enough ^^.
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@ Alistair MacBain:
We play mostly non-novice games, against level 10+ crews, and there isn't really much of a challenge to find there. It's probably just scrambled crews we've been playing against, and I'm sure we would get our asses handed to us in a competitive setting however.
I've now watched some VODs from the HC tourney, and I can see that the builds and setups are very much alike ours, which I'm happy to see we've at least understood and progressed in the right direction.
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Grey, with all due respect, I've seen moderators sit by and do nothing while players and teams either troll or violate the rules. I've also known CAs who quit because they have no real power. They have to sit there, be nice, and have no recompense as players tear into them. If their powers are less than that of a regular player then there is something seriously wrong. Heck, mall cops have more power than they do if someone misbehaves. All CAs can do is put on a happy face, file a CA report, then walk away leaving the offender to continue their abuse.
What is the point of CAs/Mods if a kick is implemented? Simple, to handle situations which requires more than a simple kick. Kicks can only solve a problem for the moment but what if an offender takes it beyond that and either stalks or trolls people numerous times? That is when a CA steps in with a match ban, preventing them from returning to the same match. Or when a CA mod steps in and just bans them from the game.
The argument that they have no reason for existing if a kick is added is flawed. In fact for the last year kick ability is probably the #1 request in game that I've run across. CAs can't be everywhere, they can't police all the lobbies. Heck they aren't even getting paid to take the level of abuse they take from the community.
Muse needs to say enough is enough and add the feature already. At one time I agreed, it would be probably abused/etc. But after a year of putting up with these people...the price of that abuse has come at the price of losing a lot of good players who just want to enjoy the game, not be trolled.
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Grey, with all due respect, I've seen moderators sit by and do nothing while players and teams either troll or violate the rules. I've also known CAs who quit because they have no real power. They have to sit there, be nice, and have no recompense as players tear into them. If their powers are less than that of a regular player then there is something seriously wrong. Heck, mall cops have more power than they do if someone misbehaves. All CAs can do is put on a happy face, file a CA report, then walk away leaving the offender to continue their abuse.
What is the point of CAs/Mods if a kick is implemented? Simple, to handle situations which requires more than a simple kick. Kicks can only solve a problem for the moment but what if an offender takes it beyond that and either stalks or trolls people numerous times? That is when a CA steps in with a match ban, preventing them from returning to the same match. Or when a CA mod steps in and just bans them from the game.
The argument that they have no reason for existing if a kick is added is flawed. In fact for the last year kick ability is probably the #1 request in game that I've run across. CAs can't be everywhere, they can't police all the lobbies. Heck they aren't even getting paid to take the level of abuse they take from the community.
Muse needs to say enough is enough and add the feature already. At one time I agreed, it would be probably abused/etc. But after a year of putting up with these people...the price of that abuse has come at the price of losing a lot of good players who just want to enjoy the game, not be trolled.
Someone make a kicking and blocking simulator for gilder. That seems like the perfect game for him.
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As some of you know already, I'm a new player, but I'm enjoying the game and the community.
That said, filter my impressions through the understanding that I haven't been around as long as the veterans, and haven't seen everything that some of you guys have been through.
I haven't seen enough abusive or problematic players to think a change is even remotely in order. I've been in a few non-novice lobbies as well as plenty of novice ones, and there has only been one player who I've felt was a problem for the game. One bad encounter in about 5 hours of time in battle and more than 30 hours signed into the game and following chat logs.
That one encounter was a person who, for some reason, took offense to me advising another new person about his role as an Engineer. He had asked a question, and I was responding with the best answer I could give. I'm only a level 2 Engineer, but nobody else was higher, and I've got a few hours under my belt already, while this was the aftermath of the new guy's first attempt in the role. I was called an offensive name and asked to be quiet in an impolite manner, but I simply continued my explanation without letting it upset me.
When the verbal insult was ignored, the player - who happened to be a Captain - changed the name of his ship to something about my mother. I laughed, and complimented him on an interesting ship name. His shipmates swapped to other ships and one even moved to the spectator position instead of fighting alongside him. His team still beat the team I was on, and I said "gg well played" because both he and the opposing crew performed well. He said a few insulting things in text chat, no longer bothering with voice, but nobody acknowledged anything he said. In the next match, he had a crew again, people who joined presumably without knowing or questioning what was going on. The fight itself was amazing, neck-and-neck, with both teams hovering at 2 kills for a while before we finally got a kill, and both our ships were vulnerable enough to go down before we could repair, taking them to a 4-3 lead. Our team eventually won out, but it was REALLY close. After-match text chat was full of "SO close!" "GG" "THAT. WAS. AWESOME!" "G ****in' G!" Everyone was pumped, but two typists were conspicuously silent right up until my "nicely played everyone! That was intense!" was followed immediately by "**** off" from you-know-who.
After that match, someone said "that [******] guy's a downer, I'm switching rooms" and everyone else quit the lobby within seconds.
If he keeps playing with that attitude, he'll keep getting the same reactions until he realises the lack of counter-rage is boring. If he gets any worse, there will be CA reports about him - if there haven't been already. I won't say that a vote-kick option can't work, but I think the potential for abuse far outweighs the (lack of) need for these tools in such an open and friendly community.
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Someone make a kicking and blocking simulator for gilder. That seems like the perfect game for him.
He is well entitled to his opinion, and justified in the request, am pretty sure you were joking but had to say regardless.
In response, i know we are looking at the CA role and have increased number of mods in game now, perhaps making it more visual will help, we have a skype group with a large number of CA/Mods and devs in so we can respond quicker, obviously might not be quick enough. I have asked the question if we can do more, and tweak things see what we can do. obviously there are other points of concern and focus right now in development, But this has been an issue for a while, i can not promise anything perhaps more mods well make a difference,
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Someone make a kicking and blocking simulator for gilder. That seems like the perfect game for him.
He is well entitled to his opinion, and justified in the request, am pretty sure you were joking but had to say regardless.
In response, i know we are looking at the CA role and have increased number of mods in game now, perhaps making it more visual will help, we have a skype group with a large number of CA/Mods and devs in so we can respond quicker, obviously might not be quick enough. I have asked the question if we can do more, and tweak things see what we can do. obviously there are other points of concern and focus right now in development, But this has been an issue for a while, i can not promise anything perhaps more mods well make a difference,
The best way to make a difference is to make it easier to get in touch with mods/CAs. Really that's all we need, though more of them is certainly not out of the question either.
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First thing to note: I am obviously not a common forum poster. However, I am sick and tired of having games ruined by that one guy that doesn't respond. It's one thing if someone is chasing an achievement or doesn't agree with a captain on how to run a certain build. I get that, I don't want to punish that kind of independent thinking. However, the kind of situations we're dealing with are not those in which people disagree, and in my experience the people who use chat abusively are also not the single biggest issue, especially when I can simply mute the people that annoy me. It's those situations in which they simply don't respond at all. How will a CA fix that? How will a mod fix that?
For starters, I'd love to have access to CA's more quickly. I want to be able to type in global "is a CA handy?" and get immediate response. However, at 12:00am Pacific time, that's not the case. And even then, what can a CA do when someone does not respond to any communication AT ALL.
In all seriousness, this is the single most common problem I've seen: people don't respond, and it's the single most prominent reason why matches don't start faster. Matching people by skill level won't make it faster because, as we're all aware, this community is celebrated for the way it embraces new players mixing with old players and having everyone co-learn. It's when people are not communicating or they are fighting at each others throats while refusing to just go somewhere else that things go awry (more commonly, the former).
This is why I make these two suggestions, each of which to be necessary to the other and something derived from democracy, which even pirate ships organized under:
1: A vote kick
It's simple, it's called on by a captain, but no one votes until another captain (maybe two, or all) approve. Then, crew members on the aforementioned boat (or perhaps the whole team's crewmembers) will vote for the kick. Before all of that can happen though, a specific charge must be associated with the kick. "unresponsiveness" "trolling" "abusive language" "uncooperative" for example. But these charges have to be set in stone and described similarly to the report system as it exists now.
2: Impeachment
Just like a vote-kick, but for the captains. A crewman calls a vote, 2/3 or 3/4 of crew members approve (maybe just 1 half, even), then 1 or 2 captain approves (depends upon lobby size, I imagine. I can see 1 captain approval going awry in a 3v3 or 4v4). This is meant for that one guy that joins and grabs a captain seat, insists everyone ready up but has not addressed his crew and has brought a bunk loadout. It might occasionally apply to the guy chasing the harpoon achievement, but I'll admit that when I was chasing "Destroy 100 parts on a harpooned ship", I and my crews were frustrated and I'm not convinced I blame anyone who would have wanted to impeach me in lobby for it. I was lucky though, because there were a lot of people who were on board to knock that sucker out with me and I was grateful for it.
I believe it was the economist Milton Friedman who argued against systems that depend upon "the right man being in charge". This is the problem with the CA/Mod system. At the same time, I think that opinions voice against vote kick functions are well founded. I think the solution is to develop a system in which a kick will take actual effort and conviction to achieve, but only requires those members of a lobby to make happen. I see no reason to believe that CA's and Mod's are solely capable of handling the problems of the community, but I do want to include them, even if only in some figure-head type of capacity.
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@Nietzsche's Mustache
Unresponsive players will get kicked under your system, Correct? So what if a player does not speak English? They will not respond to voice or text because they do not understand and they are just waiting for the game to start, Maybe just put some music on chill out wait patiently and oh they get kicked, Because of a language barrier, Now we have CA's from around the world who speak a multitude of language's who could of helped that situation and the person who spent the same money as everyone else would be allowed to play normally, But even in game as long as they are not afk and breaking any rules they do not deserve to be removed, because they do not want to communicate, There are plenty of people who play this game who do not understand English, Or might have dyslexia or hearing problems, communication is a factor in game to winning yes but people who do not communicate should be removed i disagree with.
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@Grey T
I do not understand how language could be a problem in the lobbies, concerning set-up at least.
Let's say we have a non-english speaker in the crew. We tell him, "X, be engineer". Even if he can't understand English, "engineer" is a term in the game, that is commonly seen and should be easily recognizable.
Or let's say he's a gunner and we want him to bring some lesmok. We'd tell him, "X, bring lesmok please.". Lesmok is a technical term that he sees the his customization menu, he doesn't need to speak English the understand any of this.
Third scenario, we want this X gunner to use gatling on front. If we say, "X, use gatling." and using V, we say "Man the front guns." he should be able to understand. Because it says on the gun, gatling. Maybe he doesn't want to use the gun, because it's not really enjoyable for him. Well, that doesn't give him the right of taking away the fun from 3 other players on the ship, forcing them to compensate for him.
So in the end if he doesn't comply, I am sorry, but I would seek malicious intent.
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I have to agree with Cheese here and take it even further. If someone don't speak English and thus can not understand his/her crew mates this can destroy the match for the other three people on that ship. So by that logic it is better to allow that one guy who cannot/will not work with the team a free pass and thus award damaging behavior. This does feel very wrong as those three that did want to work their best to win will be punished by it.
This game is so teamwork focused so I do actually believe that not being able or willing to communicate can and should be allowed to lead to that player being removed from that match. After all it is one persons enjoyment over three others. Ofc if they all just want to go without saying a word and just play that is fine and then no one will ever know if any one of them are their.
(again don't assume for everyone in casual lobbies just wanting to jump in to the game, some ppl still have tactics and specific things that needs doing that requires teamwork. Most likely they will also win the match in a pub)
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You guys can only enjoy a game if it is 100% meticulously organized? I think you're going way too far, as you are basically saying non-english speaking players who don't comply may not play the game they purchased.
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You guys can only enjoy a game if it is 100% meticulously organized? I think you're going way too far, as you are basically saying non-english speaking players who don't comply may not play the game they purchased.
I actually agree with them a little. If you are trying to play even a little seriously, if you can't communicate with a member of your team, you basically can't play at all in any match that isn't all or mostly newbies. I have experienced this problem myself, with unresponsive players that then got on guns they shouldn't have, and basically made us lose the match by not listening or responding. If it's a matter of they literally couldn't due to a language barrier, that wouldn't remove the fact they became a problem player due to that language barrier, and should have been with people they CAN communicate with, if nothing else. If a player could not communicate with me due to a language barrier, and couldn't even understand basic keywords like Lesmok, not gunner, or other very critical yet simple things, then I wouldn't want them on my ship. As this is an English-Speaking (mostly) Team-Based (very heavily) game requiring at least decent if not high levels of coordination, even a single player not coordinating can basically kill the enjoyment for the OTHER players in that match. If I had to choose between ruining the game for that one player, or for the 15 other players in that lobby... well, that's a no brainer. Good bye to the one unresponsive player, language barrier or not.
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If you consider a publc lobby to be "serious" play, then in my opinion, you're doing it wrong. You're welcome to play how you like, of course, but so is everyone else in the lobby with you. If you NEED a communicative crew in order to have fun, make sure you bring friends. If you need communicative captains on your team, make sure you form a multi-ship party instead of just bringing your own ship.
If you're in a public lobby and you're a Captain, by all means say "Excuse me, Buffy McEngineer, that buff hammer doesn't do much for this ship's loadout, could you replace that and the wrench with a spanner/mallet combo please?". You should expect that sometimes, you'll get "I'm going for a buff parts achievement" as a response and have to deal with it if they're not willing (or able) to swap to a different ship.
I'm usually willing to accomodate my Captain when I join their ship, but if they're an obviously drunk Squid pilot, and they're insisting that I hold fire with a Flak turret until we're at point-blank range, I'm going to be asking them to please give me a Carronade or Flamer if they expect me to listen to that "advice". And no, being a level 8 Pilot doesn't exempt you from the possibility of being wrong, even when the Gunner correcting you is only level 2.
I prefer it when I get people I can talk with, but I don't consider it necessary because I play for fun, and winning is just an added bonus. I like that I'm getting better at winning matches, and I'm a little disappointed when it feels like a better-organised crew or a more communicative friendly Captain could have tipped the balance. I've seen a ship where only the Captain brought a fire extinuisher, and I - as Gunner - was left to control fires with Heatsink ammo where possible because I knew there was never any help coming.
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If you consider a publc lobby to be "serious" play, then in my opinion, you're doing it wrong. You're welcome to play how you like, of course, but so is everyone else in the lobby with you. If you NEED a communicative crew in order to have fun, make sure you bring friends. If you need communicative captains on your team, make sure you form a multi-ship party instead of just bringing your own ship.
If you're in a public lobby and you're a Captain, by all means say "Excuse me, Buffy McEngineer, that buff hammer doesn't do much for this ship's loadout, could you replace that and the wrench with a spanner/mallet combo please?". You should expect that sometimes, you'll get "I'm going for a buff parts achievement" as a response and have to deal with it if they're not willing (or able) to swap to a different ship.
I'm usually willing to accomodate my Captain when I join their ship, but if they're an obviously drunk Squid pilot, and they're insisting that I hold fire with a Flak turret until we're at point-blank range, I'm going to be asking them to please give me a Carronade or Flamer if they expect me to listen to that "advice". And no, being a level 8 Pilot doesn't exempt you from the possibility of being wrong, even when the Gunner correcting you is only level 2.
I prefer it when I get people I can talk with, but I don't consider it necessary because I play for fun, and winning is just an added bonus. I like that I'm getting better at winning matches, and I'm a little disappointed when it feels like a better-organised crew or a more communicative friendly Captain could have tipped the balance. I've seen a ship where only the Captain brought a fire extinuisher, and I - as Gunner - was left to control fires with Heatsink ammo where possible because I knew there was never any help coming.
... Does this game have anything BUT public lobbies? If you are referring to the passworded things, that's not really an option 99% of the time in this game. Basically, until we have matchmaking, we ONLY have public matches, with absolutely random teams, who may or may not be even close in skill level.
That said, it's not like I'm even talking about that. The problem I have is when I get into a match, and find one person who doesn't listen to a thing I say, regardless of what it's about. I ask them to bring Spyglass, and not its useless alternative, and they ignore me, which is a pretty big reduction in the capabilities of the ship no matter how you look at it. I ask them to change their engie tools to something that benefits the team more, and if they ignore that, it's another huge reduction to the ship. If they prove to be good enough to make up for a crappy loadout, then I can at least be satisfied with that, but if they then ON TOP OF THAT, completely ignore what I ask of them during the match, and do actions which more or less mean we lose because we can't do anything? Then they're 100% interfering with my enjoyment of the game.
If someone is going for an achievement, fine. I'll comment on how stupid I personally think the achievement system in this game is maybe, but I'll let them go for it. But if they don't even tell me that, then I'll have to assume it's just another unresponsive player like the dozens I've encountered, and if they don't prove their worth in the match, odds are I'll either leave that lobby, or ask them to leave. I have fun when I'm winning, or in close matches. If I end up in one-sided defeats, the game gets boring rather fast. No one likes getting stomped. If I can directly point at a single unresponsive player as the reason we got stomped, then I'd like to see them kicked from my ship, rather than have to keep dealing with that kind of shit.
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If you consider a publc lobby to be "serious" play, then in my opinion, you're doing it wrong
If you consider public lobby to be place with only players who want to play "non-competetive" and don't care about losing or winning and fun at all - you're doing it wrong, sir. Many players want to be the very best (like no one ever was ;) ) and public lobbies are the place where they can train themselves. Why do you see so many metamidions in pubs? Because with the random crew you don't have to worry - everyone can shoot gatling and almost everyone know (or will be explained shortly) how mortar should be shot.
If you NEED a communicative crew in order to have fun, make sure you bring friends. If you need communicative captains on your team, make sure you form a multi-ship party instead of just bringing your own ship.
It is SOME solution, I'll give you that. That's why we need better clan system. Luckily I'm in a clan with almost 100 members so I usually can find a team to play with.
If someone is going for an achievement, fine. I'll comment on how stupid I personally think the achievement system in this game is maybe, but I'll let them go for it. But if they don't even tell me that, then I'll have to assume it's just another unresponsive player like the dozens I've encountered, and if they don't prove their worth in the match, odds are I'll either leave that lobby, or ask them to leave.
This. Very much.
My two cents - the game is fun when everyone is doing their best and cooperating. The game is not fun when (even on enemy team) there's some low-lvl captain who rushes alone, not caring how many ships he encouters or where his ally is and does it with double-mortar pyramidion (sic!). As someone said - this game requires a lot of communication and cooperation - that's how it's made and that's why we love it so much.
Maybe we can make a system of commends for captain which would allow him to point a specific player and give him some order. Such pre-made communicates can be translated (at least the text) and therefore non-english speakers could understand them. It would require some UI work but it's doable (but maybe the effect is not worth the work).
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If you consider public lobby to be place with only players who want to play "non-competetive" and don't care about losing or winning and fun at all - you're doing it wrong, sir. Many players want to be the very best (like no one ever was ;) ) and public lobbies are the place where they can train themselves. Why do you see so many metamidions in pubs? Because with the random crew you don't have to worry - everyone can shoot gatling and almost everyone know (or will be explained shortly) how mortar should be shot.
At no point did I say that you CAN'T play competitively in a public lobby. I said that if you're not bringing your own crew (and preferably also teammate/s) that you should EXPECT your ship to perform competitively every time. You SHOULD expect that occasionally you'll get an uncommunicative problem crew member, or someone who won't listen to your instructions. You'll sometimes have to put up with someone who doesn't care that the achievement system is ridiculous in your opinion and wants that precious little picture anyway. And sometimes, your Gunner won't be able to hit the broadside of a barn even if you park inside it.
It's perfectly fair to create a lobby with scramble turned off, and stack all your friends on your team, then play with them and no matter who joins, you know you'll be playing with teammates and crewmates you trust. If you don't have people you trust, then you should consider making more friends in-game. It's pretty easy to go into the game with a casual mindset for a bit, NOT worry so much because you know you're going to meet some idiots, and find people who communicate, and who get along with you. If you're in a clan, just check the clan list, see if anyone there is interested in crewing with you. If not, consider joining one - as mentioned, clan tools aren't the best, but they help more than the nothing you get without one.
As for the comments system, giving the person on the helm an extra slot for orders (they only use ASD right now, so a W slot is available) would be great. "Select crew member" and have it so the game says "YOU THERE!" before the order, and makes the text a private message to that player.
That way, they hear a specific "Listen up" type notification before the command, and they get a private message pop-up with an auto-translated instruction for what they should be doing.
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I love that idea. What I want most is a specific weapon command. Something like when you hit V > A, you could press a number key to choose the corresponding weapon on the loadouts, and maybe the gun's icon would highlight. There's been a lot of times where I really want someone to get ready on a specific weapon, and if it highlighted like that it'd really do the trick.
If we had that, and a way to communicate commands to a certain crew member (your suggestion), I think it'd go miles in helping team synergy in public matches. Make the crew text chat more noticeable visually and audibly, and that's all you really need.
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I agree with a lot of what's been said above me. Basically, with a game so team-oriented as this one, you have to start thinking that "the needs of the many is outweigh the needs of the few." (I'm thinking of Bentham and John Stuart Mill here, not Spock) Although I am very much an individualist for the real world and like for people to be able to play it their own way, it's ultimately down to what's need for a given situation. I invite everyone to discuss with me what they want to bring for a given situation if they think something will work better than what I've requested (as of late I've found myself in many long, drawn-out discussions regarding ammos for the lumberjack), but if there outright just isn't any communication, then the game is less fun and lobbies get bogged down.
One of the things I have to emphasize about the system I mention above is the notion of giving specific charges to go along with the kick. These are things that have to be established WITH the vote kick and you'll have to have something pop-up on the concerned player's screen as soon as the vote is called letting them know that he's currently being voted-on. Because this game is internationalized, those messages will show up in different languages so no matter what language he or she speaks, he or she will understand that there are 14 people who don't want to play with him because he's not responding. Add a 45 second timer that starts with that second captain's approval for vote-kicking or with the first vote following an impeachment call as well as the ability for anyone to change their vote at any time. This way, a player who's just chillin out with no sound and not paying too much attention to chat can go "wait, hold on guys! I'm here! Tell me what to do!" and then we're back on track again.
I like the idea of an auto-translating captains-orders feature, but I'm afraid the user-interface is already way too cluttered. I've already un-bound the V commands because I hit V instead of C accidentally and it screws up my flying.
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I really support making the CA button easier to find.... especially as I don't even know where it is now.
....there's a CA button?
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....there's a CA button?
^This^
I also agree with Nietzsche's Moustache
I like the idea of an auto-translating captains-orders feature, but I'm afraid the user-interface is already way too cluttered. I've already un-bound the V commands because I hit V instead of C accidentally and it screws up my flying.
How about the option to create your own macros using F1-F5 (or more, but I think no one will be using more) for the V-commands? I mean, let me go to options and select that for example (assume that I'm flying pyramidion):
F1 = REPAIR THE HULL
F2 = REPAIR THE BALOON
F3 = REPAIR THE ENGINES
F4 = MAN THE FORE GUNS
F5 = MAN THE PORT GUNS
Then I can get just at least some of the most important commends quick.
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I've bound the voice commands (which I use extensively) to left Alt so that I can hit them with my thumb. ^^
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I've bound the voice commands (which I use extensively) to left Alt so that I can hit them with my thumb. ^^
Geo I'm pretty sure the complaint is that you use them -too- extensively.