Guns Of Icarus Online

Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Wundsalz on May 05, 2014, 12:24:57 pm

Title: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Wundsalz on May 05, 2014, 12:24:57 pm
I plan to resurrect the idea of a planetary gearing league I've had a while back (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1796.msg31831.html#msg31831) to fill the Sunday slot, which is currently not used by GoIs competitive scene.

I've designed this League with the Sunday evening slot and a casual spirit in mind. In my opinion one of the major flaws of the Sunday Rumble was its duration which has been especially problematic for European clans like ours, as Sunday rumbles could very well last until midnight and beyond, which kind of sucks if you need to get up early on Monday. Also I personally consider it quite exhausting to play more than two BO3-encounters in a row which has not been unlikely in Sunday Rumbles.

So I thought about how to organize a GoI-Sunday evening which doesn't require too much time-dedication by the players. The result is a concept which allows all participants to have a guaranteed single scrim within a league. Due to the parallel execution of two encounters in series, it's likely that full clan crews will be around before and/or after your league encounter. This provides a good environment to get either additional scrims (outside the league) started or to play semi-public high level lobbies if you want to. Alternatively you could just call it a day.

Overall the league is designed in a more casual spirit than the previously executed cog-series or the planned and cancelled 3rd series. It allows easy drop ins and outs for teams who just want to enjoy a scrim on a sunday afternoon while providing a system which rewards commitment and on-going success for those who want to take the league more seriously and participate in it on a regular basis.

Cogs in a nutshell

The goal of the league is to match participating teams with other teams of similar strength on a weekly basis. Furthermore the league shall be easily accessible for new teams at any given point of time and it shall encourage teams to participate in the leagues events on a regular basis. Players shall not have dedicate more than 2 hours of their spare time to participate in a league-event.

All teams participating in the League are associated with a slot in the planetary gearing which are indicated by a Letter and a Number in the picture below. In Cog-Events teams which are associated with adjected gear-sections (e.g. C1 and B2) are matched for best-of-three-encounters. If the challenger of an encounter wins, the encounters teams positions in the cogs standings are swapped. Otherwise the positions are kept. At the end of an Cog-Event the gears are turned and points are granted to All teams according to their standings (see the table below). The team which accumulates most points during a season, which lasts 12 events, wins the season.
(http://i.imgur.com/k1UvBNJ.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/sNwP0RI.png)

Organization
The Cog-Events take place each sunday (afternoon for the US, evening for the EU). Which teams which face each other at which time and on what maps will be announced one day prior to each event.
The event organization requires at least 4 voluntary referees per event who watch the matches. Referees can be changed from event to event. potential referees and (hopefully) streamers can sign up (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KvVTiATsvmCZP31S2cKBeCRDxt-zA2n_6dedwOKpKO8/edit?usp=sharing) to watch encounters and are assigned to encounters one day prior to an event.

Rules

Rules! (https://docs.google.com/document/d/180jODDW_9qNnHosYG2I5GurWZl_0h13fRTrOigwT9JI/edit?
usp=sharing)

An ongoing League
The League is designed as an ongoing event rather than Tournament with a defined start and end date.
While I could possibly see this league format being executed with a start and end date like the Sky-League, Aerodrome or soon the Hephaestus-League, I don't think it fits the concept. This would be problematic due to 2 major flaws my league-concept has that other leagues don't have. The initial seeding has a severe impact on the outcome of the League and the League-outcome can be decided before the end of the League. If this league was executed in a similar way as previous ones an execution of a fair and probably rather time-consuming qualification-phase would be mandatory. After the qualification phase ended, a team with a low seed wouldn't have much more than a theoretical chance to win the season or even just be among the top 3 teams at the end of the season.
Hence I'd much rather like to see this Concept being executed as an ongoing league with relatively brief seasons (6-8 weeks) which connect seamlessly. Feel like playing competitive out of the sudden? - Join mid season! - you probably won't win it anymore, but you can work yourself into a good starting position for the next one.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Wundsalz on May 05, 2014, 12:32:29 pm
Feedback is welcome.

Stuff that could currently need help with:
1. think of a cool name for the league. I'd somewhat like to have this league distinguished from the previous cog seasons, as the nature of this league is quite a bit different.
2. think of a lore! planetary gearings, steampunkish-post-apocalyptic theme. I'm sure someone more creative than me can come up with a pseudo-scientific/mystical story why people would fight each other over a bunch of gears. This also might yield a more unique and fitting name for the league.
3. As you can see my artistic skills are rather limited. If someone is interested in actually designing a cool, steampunkish planetary gearing for the league, pm me please!
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: redria on May 05, 2014, 01:00:48 pm
1. This is cool. I liked this design when it was initially brought up, and I still think it is cool.
2. (having a) Rule set is good. I'm glad other people like that concept and are toying with it. (I haven't read the rules yet)

That aside.

Can GoIO handle 2 long running events at once?

Hephaestus Challenge is happening starting May 24th. Unless nobody signs up when we open signups, it is going to be a thing.

You propose for this to run Sunday. That would mean we couldn't have any relaxed or low commitment events running on Sunday. The weekend would be committed entirely to high level competitive play, which is hard enough when each team only competes one day.

My point being, I don't think we have enough strength to hold up 2 events like this at once.

BUT

I developed the HC with the community during the Sky League. We hit on several points that were important, such as needing defined rules, needing a separation of casters and organization, and needing refs. I like that the Cogs concept you've drawn up pulls these along for further use.

I would (personally) tend towards putting this in public development for the duration of the HC and getting Muse backing to make it the next "season" of the official scene after the HC. The HC hopefully has replayability, but it might be nice to not just run the same League over and over. Alternating between systems would be cool, and still leave Sundays reserved for other events that don't have that time commitment.

These are just my opinions. I think its a good starting point and I'd like to see it in play. I just think we aren't big enough to do 2 large events at once.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on May 05, 2014, 01:07:17 pm
I agree with redria's sentiments.   I really liked the Sunday rumble format for Sundays; a one off tourney that was a bit more casual and reserve the more hardcore tourneys for Saturdays
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Velvet on May 05, 2014, 01:08:58 pm
Quote
which is currently not used by GoIs competitive scene.
note that that's no longer true. spot claimed.

That said, I'm not of the opinion that organisers should try to muscle each other out and claim monopolies on either of the 2 decent timeslots.

started writing the next bit before Redria's post. so it might feel a little repetitive. :P

However, the Hephaestus league is already the "big" event for the time being. Even though you're proposing to run it on a different day, I'm not at all sure that anyone wants to participate in 2 long running events at once. So you're inevitably in competition with the Hephaestus and it's already gathered a lot of momentum - the community can't really support 2 big competitive leagues at once imo.
Better to focus on, as Redria says, preparing this as a concept for the next season. A variety of big competitive events and event organisers is a good thing in my opinion, but I think in the community's current state the tournaments have to be run one after another rather than parallel.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on May 05, 2014, 01:20:30 pm
I agree with velvet and am excited to compete in velvet's tourney
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Sammy B. T. on May 05, 2014, 02:09:34 pm
Wundsalz, I believe you know my love of this system. I think I am the only one to make fan art for it. :)

(http://i.imgur.com/ts9kfUJ.png)




That being said, I don't think we can do this and the HC at the same time. Community just isn't big enough and teams aren't zealous enough fill both leagues. I would though completely support having a planetary cogs tournament for the next main competitive event. Like super mc duper support because I love planetary cogs.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on May 05, 2014, 06:28:32 pm
trying.. to ... stop... but... can't.. I agree with Sammy... ::barf::
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Tropo on May 05, 2014, 09:46:47 pm
PLEASE NO FUCKING COGS
make it simple
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Sammy B. T. on May 05, 2014, 10:06:05 pm
You win, you move up. You lose, you don't.



AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Captain Smollett on May 05, 2014, 10:07:19 pm
PLEASE NO FUCKING COGS
make it simple

The planetary cog system was actually quite brilliant and a far superior model than the initial cogs.  As a non competitive and barely active player, my opinion doesn't count for all that much anymore however I always wanted to see it happen and it would be pretty darn interesting to me to see it happen after the Hephaestus challenge.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Frogger on May 05, 2014, 11:10:14 pm
Stuff that could currently need help with:
1. think of a cool name for the league. I'd somewhat like to have this league distinguished from the previous cog seasons, as the nature of this league is quite a bit different.
2. think of a lore! planetary gearings, steampunkish-post-apocalyptic theme. I'm sure someone more creative than me can come up with a pseudo-scientific/mystical story why people would fight each other over a bunch of gears. This also might yield a more unique and fitting name for the league.
3. As you can see my artistic skills are rather limited. If someone is interested in actually designing a cool, steampunkish planetary gearing for the league, pm me please!

There were plenty of good lore/backstory ideas (mostly contributed by Squash, IIRC) in the Cogs S3 OP here:

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2502.0.html

The new organizers of the planetary system could scavenge from this thread as they like. The system is still there - someone just has to implement it.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Wundsalz on May 06, 2014, 06:48:21 am
I've designed this League with the Sunday evening slot and a casual spirit in mind. In my opinion one of the major flaws of the Sunday Rumble was its duration which has been especially problematic for European clans like ours, as Sunday rumbles could very well last until midnight and beyond, which kind of sucks if you need to get up early on Monday. Also I personally consider it quite exhausting to play more than two BO3-enounters in a row which has not been unlikely in Sunday Rumbles.
So I thought about how to organize a GoI-Sunday evening which doesn't require too much time-dedication by the players. The result is a concept which allows all participants to have a guaranteed single scrim within a league. Due to the parallel execution of two encounters in series, it's likely that full clan crews will be around before and/or after your league encounter. This provides a good environment to get either additional scrims (outside the league) started or to play semi-public high level lobbies if you want to. Alternatively you could just call it a day.
Overall the league is designed in a more casual spirit than the previously executed cog-series or the planned and cancelled 3rd series. It allows easy drop ins and outs for teams who just want to enjoy a scrim on a sunday afternoon while providing a system which rewards commitment and on-going success for those who want to take the league more seriously and participate in it on a regular basis.

I could possibly see this league format being executed with a start and end date like the Sky-League, Aerodrome or soon the Hephaestus-League. However this would be problematic due to 2 major flaws my league-concept has that other leagues don't have. The initial seeding has a severe impact on the outcome of the League and the League-outcome can be decided before the end of the League. If this league was executed in a similar way as previous ones an execution of a fair and probably rather time-consuming qualification-phase would be mandatory. After the qualification phase ended, a team with a low seed wouldn't have much more than a theoretical chance to win the season or even just be among the top 3 teams at the end of the season.
Hence I'd much rather like to see this Concept being executed as an ongoing league with relatively brief seasons (6-8 weeks) which connect seamlessly. Feel like playing competitive out of the sudden? - Join mid season! - you probably won't win it anymore, but you can work yourself into a good starting position for the next one.

PLEASE NO FUCKING COGS
make it simple
You will be informed when to play against which team at what time on what map prior to each event. If you don't want to get into the underlying system, you really don't have to.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Wundsalz on May 06, 2014, 07:30:52 am
Can GoIO handle 2 long running events at once?
[...]
You propose for this to run Sunday. That would mean we couldn't have any relaxed or low commitment events running on Sunday. The weekend would be committed entirely to high level competitive play, which is hard enough when each team only competes one day.
I do believe so. The Sunday Rumble ran for more than 20 weeks and always attracted enough teams to get something started.
The league-concept is not designed as a dead-serious tournament. I see it as a more casual, ongoing event that can be entered and exited mid-season by any team.

Quote
which is currently not used by GoIs competitive scene.
note that that's no longer true. spot claimed.

That said, I'm not of the opinion that organisers should try to muscle each other out and claim monopolies on either of the 2 decent timeslots.
I think we can debate our potential time-conflict once it's settled whether my league concept is a wanted thing or not. Then it's probably time to debate about time-slot usage.
Tha beeing said, I personally wouldn't mind to pause the league if someone has got a good idea for a sunday-event. Also I could see 1-2 special 2 vs. 2 events per season being integrated into the league to mix things up (Baptized by Spire, 2 vs. 2 on 3 vs. 3 maps - stuff like that).
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on May 06, 2014, 09:25:50 am
I still believe that one season based league at a time is the way to go.  velvet's idea/Sunday rumble were both one-off tourneys that one could fully participate in one week take the next off and fully participate in the week after.  this is what appealed to us wolves so much.  wund I think your tourney caters to a dif crowd than velvet's but I think that crowd is telling you to wait till the other season based tourney is over first
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: redria on May 06, 2014, 12:30:53 pm
In theory you could participate in this league under the same philosophy as the rumbles: compete one week and drop out the next. Extra cogs could be added whenever teams join.

However teams only get to play a single game/match each week, and unless you keep playing consistently it is basically a weekly random scrim. Which is cool, but probably (maybe?) not what people look for in a casual event. Because you can't win the event in a single weekend. You can just win a single game/match. Which is cool, but not really that exciting. People looking to enter into a single day, no-commit event want to have a conclusion.

I'm pretty confident that your 2 major problems could be solved creatively, and it would be exciting to have a variety of every-week-play Leagues to rotate through.

I guess my biggest worry is that these long events could stifle new things. I'm already concerned enough about the length of HC without wondering what will happen if there isn't a consistent opening for a 1 day event running on Sundays for people to play relaxed. Not to say it couldn't be done, or done successfully, just that it (IMO) might not return the benefit of trying to hold onto Sundays for having events that can conclude in a single day.
 


Here's a possible solution to the initial seeding problem that makes your initial position less important (possibly):
Every week you play a match. The result is you either win and advance (1), win and hold position (2), or lose (3).
(1) You are awarded with 95 points.
(2) You are awarded with [50 - (2 * Z)] where "Z" is your depth in the Cogs -> A team is Z=0, B teams are Z=1, C teams are Z=2, etc.
(3) You are awarded 0 points.

This results in advancing teams being awarded good points (but not enough points to switch between winning and losing repeatedly and beat out the top team holding "A" all season).
Teams that hold position are rewarded with some points.
Teams that lose are not rewarded.
Your starting position matters less because although you can earn more points for holding a higher position, you run a higher risk of losing and getting no reward.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on May 07, 2014, 08:06:07 am
If its a late enough start on Sunday you'll probably get a team from us.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on May 07, 2014, 11:25:06 am
I much like the idea of something casual for Sundays. The thing here though is while I do still like the gearing format, and really want to participate in such system, I think it'll be a struggle to get people in under both a casual and a sustained way. The gearing format itself kind of relies on teams sticking around for awhile (so they can both 1. play to win and 2. have opponents). I don't think its really possible to have both in that manner.

That said, Sunday Rumbles can just take too long. Playing a tourney is a big time sink if youre doing well and plenty of people show up to stake their claim at winning the day.

A format that simply facilitates a way for teams to put in their name to be seeded into a match vs another willing team at humane hours would be nice. bo3, and you play, you win/lose, and teams can say how many matches they want. Just give it some basic common sense rules and play. Not every "competitive" event needs to be for prizes. Think of it as more of a middle man system for scrimmages.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Frogger on May 07, 2014, 12:57:18 pm
I agree with RADM Zill on both counts.

If Saturday is going to be a continuous league event, Sunday should be very casual, with little or no continuity, so that the community isn't split and teams aren't exhausted, as inevitably happens during the long-running events.

I also agree that same-day Bo3 single elimination tournaments take way too long. A simple single elimination bracket for the casual event is a fine way to go, but I think the lower stages should be Bo1. RADM Zill's idea might also work, though it'd need to be fleshed out a bit.

Regardless, I definitely support making Sunday a light day if Saturday is going to be the premier league event.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Velvet on May 07, 2014, 01:53:57 pm
I agree best of 1 may be worth trying for a casual elimination format. Maybe Bo1 in all matches except the final? an advantage of the one off nature of such an event is that it would be really easy to do it one week, see how it felt then work from there.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on May 07, 2014, 02:47:07 pm
For my "middle man for scrims" idea, there would be no brackets. Just matches. Ill give an crude example:

MM wants two matches. Ducks and Gents want one each. This would lead to MM playing Ducks, followed by MM playing Gents in a match (bo1 or bo3, whichever is deemed more popular). No "world league tournament season champion" titles. Just matches against other willing teams, with a set of common sense rules so everyone is satisfied.

Maps, teams fought, ect can be random. Since you don't have brackets, you can quite easily scale the matches. The only drawback is you might not always get more than one match if you want it, just based on how many teams want a match that week. You also hit a chance of getting an odd amount of teams. Such situations would need to be fleshed out. Streams could happen if someone wanted to do it, and if we get a lot of matches going at once, then it could be by popular vote which gets the spotlight.

Honestly I'd have no problem setting something like that up, if there was enough interest in such a thing.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: Velvet on May 07, 2014, 02:53:51 pm
Muse actually already have pretty much exactly that in the form of the Leviathan Seasonal. no uptake, although that may just be an issue of presentation.
Title: Re: Concept for a sunday league
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on May 07, 2014, 02:56:53 pm
Except there are no point systems to worry about. Literally it would just be teams coming to have a few rounds against other teams in a manner that doesn't require them to organize it like they would now for one-off scrimmages.