Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Mysterious Medic on April 19, 2014, 10:12:11 pm
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After seeing the goldfish being taken to a few more competitive games, it was pretty clear to me what the biggest problem was: how easy it is to disable the goldfish's front gun. I'm pretty sure this is the general consensus of goldfish pilots. Once your front gun is down, you're a fish out of water (pun intended). Instead of arcing its side guns forward, which would just make a more mobile and overpowered spire, I suggest that a protective hood arcing up from the bottom of the goldfish should be implemented.
First off, there's no way this could be overpowered; the artemis arcs downwards, so any blenderfish or hwacha-fish approaching would have to move in high. As opposed to the hood covering the top of the front gun, a blenderfish can't just go under an artemis and make the artemis useless. I'm thinking the artemis (or caronades, gats, and any other fast shatter weapon) shouldn't be able to hit the front gun head on, but maybe a few degrees above it.
I'm not opposed to any other shielding ideas, but I think this could be implemented easily, and make the goldfish more viable of an option in competitive play again.
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it has been suggested before, but i think it is a very good idea!
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Afaik, once the current dev app changes are fine tuned and released, goldfish and/or heavy weapons are being looked at.
Probably.
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@ Dutch Vanya It has? :-\ Damn, I thought I was original. Can you link me to that?
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I think it's somewhere in one of the other goldfish threads, maybe i'm wrong too. Either way you added more to the idea, and described it better. It was just a suggestion for some kind of front gun protection.
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I have suggested it myself a few times... i am more for this fix over changing the angle of side guns
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this is definitely a better fix than angle changes.
it also reflects what the average crew in universe would do. it is much easier and cheaper to weld some scrap to the front of your ship to protect your important, and presumably expensive, heavy gun than it is to remove and reposition your sidegun platforms.
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Wouldn't be a stretch. Goldfish is a better rammer than the Pyra when you use moonshine. Gets up to top speed faster and when it hits for some reason it just 1 shots ships which the Pyra needs 2 rams to kill. Didn't really realize till I had to work on that broken Rumble/Goldfish achievement. Giving it an armored bow wouldn't be bad. That is actually part of my Lionfish concept design. It has an armor shroud on the front, covering it's twin heavy guns.
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So if I am slightly below a blenderfish, I should not have a shot on the gun?
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So if I am slightly below a blenderfish, I should not have a shot on the gun?
Slightly, yes. Significantly, no.
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I really don't think blenderfish needs a buff like that. Simply decreasing the number of strikes needed to rebuild would be a lot easier, provide more resilience from any angle, and my pretty ship wouldn't develop a protruding lower lip.
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Making heavy guns have shorter rebuild times would make the goldfish problem a multifaceted balance issue for all heavy weapon ships so I think the devs would say no thanks to that, they're comfortable with the balance on heavy/mid weapons I think. No, this is specifically a goldfish problem, so I think it needs a specific fix. Who says if needs to be ugly?
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This may or may not be a good idea, all depends on how effective a blenderfish will be. All things considered, it's not hard for a balloon popping ship to stay above the enemy, so the question is how much cover can a front gun have for it to be effective, but at the same time not overpowered for a carrofish.
If that won't work as one can hope for, I think that another step could be making goldfish a semi-bifecta ship. Slightly setting ONE of the guns under the right angle so the side gun and front gun could cross-fire in a small, even minimal arc, similar to current Squid bifecta, but with more firepower, as I believe Goldfish should have just for the very reason it has a heavy gun on the front. This grants it enough firepower to be considered a threat, but not enough to be overpowered like it would be with a trifecta people used to propose.
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The only thing is, I'm pretty sure a bifecta is already possible with some guns on a goldfish. My only concern is how would muse actually implement shielding for the front gun, are we hoping for a change in the goldfish moddle and mesh, or just an adjustment to its hit box?
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do not let this thread turn into a "turning arcs" thread... we have already done that thread.... as much as i am for turning the arcs this thread was started specifically to get away from that line of discussion.
Making heavy guns have shorter rebuild times would make the goldfish problem a multifaceted balance issue for all heavy weapon ships so I think the devs would say no thanks to that, they're comfortable with the balance on heavy/mid weapons I think. No, this is specifically a goldfish problem, so I think it needs a specific fix. Who says if needs to be ugly?
totally agree. a small curved piece of hull does not need to look ugly. in-fact if you simply slid the gun emplacement back a few feet it would accomplish the same goal.
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EVERY Hwacha and Heavy Carronade is easy to destroy, this is a problem for the Galleon and Spire as well .Howerver, these ships physique and how these ships are used differ too much from the Goldfish to give this subject too much attention.
Now the front gun protection that Medic is suggesting, would barely make any difference. How much protection would it really ensure without blocking the gun from shooting at all? If we are talking about the Artemis shooting downwards, why not stay above it to begin with? Same with Gatlings since their lower arc is superior over their upper arc and Carronades would just shoot out the balloon until the Goldfish drops in arc for these guns to destroy it's main gun.
And why only give the Goldfish a special kind of protection? Why not give the Spire protection as well? As tall as it is, it could need it very well! Or how about the Squids engines? Or the light gun-and-ram-equivalent: the Pyra? What's a Pyra without it's front guns? A less manouverable Goldfish without a front gun and side guns that barely get ever used...
Personally, it was a nice idea, but I don't think it's really all that helpful, if it's even necessary at all. The Goldfish has proven it's effectiveness more than once already, it only needs a bit of teamwork to get it going. But if your front gun really does get that much damage as it does and your ally just can't help you, you will have to make use of pilot tools and "special tactics" to help you out.
Otherwise, concerning gun destruction in general, there would only be the option of engineer and/or gunner equipment that reduces shatter damage on guns/engines...
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When does the spire charge into battle? The galleon has a huge hull to protect it when advancing. Fact of the matter is, even if you do get the jump on a ship with Artemis, there is a good chance they will still disable your front gun. When I'm piloting a blender fish, most of the time I don't feel like I'm rewarded for using height advantage, and this would fix that.
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Of every ship, the goldfish has the best concentrated effort into repairing the main gun.
Why do we need this exactly?
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When does the spire charge into battle? The galleon has a huge hull to protect it when advancing. Fact of the matter is, even if you do get the jump on a ship with Artemis, there is a good chance they will still disable your front gun. When I'm piloting a blender fish, most of the time I don't feel like I'm rewarded for using height advantage, and this would fix that.
A Spire doesn't need to charge into battle to be an easy target that has to rely on it's sheer firepower, before getting destroyed itself (glass cannon).
A Galleon can't protect it's guns from being disabled in anyway. A Goldfish at least can gain enough altitude to escape a barrage of Artemi and Mercuries. So why only give the Goldfish this protection? Only because the Galleon can take a few more hits before it dies without ever getting to shoot?
I just wanted to point out that giving only the Goldfish some kind of protection would be rather unfair compared to other ships.
About height advantage, are you talking about being disabled quickly even though you are above enemy? Then I would say it's a basic counter to the ship itself. All ships have their disadvantages and it requires piloting skills and teamwork to win a battle even with those disadvantes being present.
Also, all ships are affected by vertical gameplay. The difference between the Goldfish and for example the Pyramidion in this aspect is that a Pyramidion can utilize more firepower than a Goldfish, which was why many people have suggested bringing atlest a second gun in arc for a bifecta.
If you ask me, a Blenderfish is just a bigger Squid, only being less effiecent at what it does. To be honest, a hwacha on a Goldfish is the only thing that a Goldfish can do better than any other ship. As well as quickly utilizing long range support from different angles.
It's not the ship that needs fixing, it's how people use it and to what extent people are allowed to use it.
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Let's put this into perspective, imagine if the pyramidion's two front guns had HUGE hit boxes. Meaning, even if you managed to close the distance or sneak up on an enemy ship, your weapons would be disabled immediately. No one would use it. It wouldn't really counter anything. That's the goldfish's current problem. Compare it to other ships with heavy weapons. A galleon doesn't need to get close to an enemy to use it's maximum potential. Neither does a spire. If you choose a brawling version of either of the two ships, you have so much more fire power than a goldfish. BUT, if you give the goldfish an easy bifecta, it's mauneverability becomes a problem. Simply put, the goldfish is the only really mauneverable ship with a heavy weapon. A goldfish is also, in my opinion, the hardest ship to repair, and rightly so. For this reason, the goldfish is an entirely different animal than the two other heavy weapon ships. That is the reason why it needs it's own fix. Also, a blender fish is the only ship you can insta kill a mobula with a balloon ram, so yes, I believe the blender fish has it's place in brawling ships.
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I can see what your problem is, but now we are stuck at different opinions. I still think the Goldfish is in a good place right now, if piloted right. It's already beating the Spire and Galleon in brawling capabilities with it's manouverbility (in theory).
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We all clearly agree that the problem with Goldfish is, aside from tough repairs, its reliance on the main gun, that can be easily disabled for quite some time, because it's a large, heavy weapon, doesn't have an effective arc for a bifecta, and its side guns alone can't do much.
The tricky part in making it viable is to either do something that will prevent the weapon from easy breaking, or something to make the Fish not as reliable on its main gun in the first place. Either way, the fact remains that some people (Daniel for example) find Goldfish a viable ship, so what should be done to maintain the balance between making it useful for everyone while not making it too overpowered in certain situations?
There's a few options and ideas already mentioned a few times:
1.Reduce repair time for heavy guns overall (which will probably cause imbalance for other heavy weapon reliant ships)
2.Provide Fish's Main gun with additional coverage (that may or may not work fine depending on the amount of weapon cover, if it comes down to considering the idea it needs to be tested before making a final judgment)
3.Give the Fish a full bifecta (basically one gun facing front, but this may end up being overpowered second pyramidion with disable hwacha, armor breaking gat and kill hwacha)
4.Give the Fish a semi-bifecta (similar to Squid's, but working only at certain, smaller arc, which seems like an idea for me, as Squid, with its light guns with wide rotation arcs can make full use of its maneuverability, while tight heavy weapon arc denies goldfish some movement, cause even if you go for a bifecta you have to more or less face your enemy up front for heavy gun to be in range, thus not enabling you to circle around him with constant crossfire from main-side guns)
5.Place another weapon on the Fish's side (in case of front gun disable a Fish can be left with an option to turn for its side guns, thus not being as reliant fully on the heavy weapon, not to mention with engie splits often being one guy on hull/side engines/starboard gun and the other being balloon/main engine/port gun the balloon engie could use weapon closer to the balloon, with gunner taking the front port gun, leaving starboard engie on the hull, which in theory seems like it could work)
6.Leave it as it is(with some people considering the Fish a useful ship as it is now, that's always an option, and it may end up with the ship simply being used differently)
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No, like... Seriously, if you expect it to be disabled then play by it. It has the best concentrated effort into repairing then build your crew and inform them for such an occasion.
There is always the aspect of Pre building along with 3 people rebuilding on a Hwacha. And that is super quick.
If we compare it to other ships, Spire (Slow) Galleon (Slow) Goldfish (???). What the other ships have going for them: Galleon (Heavy weapon FirePower) Spire (Concentrated Light gun firepower) Goldfish (Really mobile with a heavy gun).
In most cases, ships like the goldfish can escape a failed encounter when he sees his teamate dying, unlike the other 2 ships i mentioned.
How about the fact that the other 2 ships are HUGE and are easily targeted generaly.
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Uhh, the galleon's actually quite fast, it just has horrid acceleration. (Pretty much pyramidion fast at top speed.)
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@deltajugg the goldfish already has a bifecta with certain weapons. Hwacha and light caronade get a slight bifecta, as do heavy caronade and banshee. Also, I never said it wasn't a viable ship, it's still fun as hell in pubs. It's just that in competitive play, with such efficient Artemis use, your guns going to be down constantly. And honestly, I really don't see the problem with the shielding idea, as a pilot you still have to maunever above them and around them. I've already explained why it wouldn't be overpowered.
@crafeksterty I don't know how you fly your goldfish, but I burn the hell out of my engines (much like I would with any fast ship). There's no way both of my engineers are going to be able to rebuild my front gun AND keep track of engine damage AND any other damage coming at us, the ship is just way to spread apart. Also, if I'm in a mobula, junker, hades art pyramid, or anything you would put arts on, it's so easy to just tell your crew "hit his front gun" and it's down in an instant. Compare that to a squid, or pyramidion, can you disable them as easily coming in? Not at all.
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Why don't you use this in your tactic then. Load your special ammo and then let the enemy in long range disable the gun and rebuild it so far until only 1 hit of a pipe wrench does the trick.
However, when people really think a "buff" is necessary then I would propose one of the following:
How about giving the ship more acceleration when it comes to engines? Negative side is that it would bring people back to the "slow paced game vs dogfighting"-thread(s).
An additional set of guns, one more for each side, as suggested before, does sound nice, as long as combinations like gat/mortar are at least nigh impossible to not create a second Junker. Or how about 2 back guns that somehow don't get in the way of the main engine but can be twice as useful in an attempt to escape!
To be honest, I am even starting to think about switching the Goldfish's side guns with medium guns and its front gun with a light gun... Who knows, that might actually do the trick.
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The goldfish is fine where it is, the front gun is easy to maneuver around, the ship is one of the quickest in the game, and is relatively easy to repair and position with. The ship that needs any kind of armor plating around its large guns is the galleon for several reasons that I have already gone over in a different thread. Even if you loose your main gun on an approach to an arti, you can just prebuild it and then finish the rebuild when you get to an advantages location.
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An additional set of guns, one more for each side, as suggested before, does sound nice, as long as combinations like gat/mortar are at least nigh impossible to not create a second Junker. Or how about 2 back guns that somehow don't get in the way of the main engine but can be twice as useful in an attempt to escape!
To be honest, I am even starting to think about switching the Goldfish's side guns with medium guns and its front gun with a light gun... Who knows, that might actually do the trick.
(http://images.wikia.com/powerlisting/images/0/0d/The-mask-o.gif) Pretty much this :P
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Okay, I'm not going to give away anything, but let me just say: wait for the next patch ;)
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Okay, I'm not going to give away anything, but let me just say: wait for the next patch ;)
Are you trying to make some kind of... point?
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Okay, I'm not going to give away anything, but let me just say: wait for the next patch ;)
There is no balancing for the goldfish coming in the next patch, what are you saying?
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The goldfish will be effective in the next patch. Since it was talked about in the last Dev App, I'll just outright say it now. Flamers on the goldfish + their heavy weapon will be devastating.
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I don't see how the flamer buff will somehow stop the goldfish's front gun from being taken out.
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I also don't see your point milevan. The flamethrower will be used AGAINST the goldfish just as effectively.
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The flamethrower is practically as good as having gattling/mortar, if not as fast. Having that on both sides, plus the heavy gun, makes it a viable ship. Or at least more viable than it is now.
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Milevan, not meaning to sound rude or derail the thread too much, but do you ever actually play Guns of Icarus Online? You seem to make myriad of erroneous comments on this forum... ^^
Buffing one light weapon will not change the goldfish's situation at all, especially not one that can be completely countered by chemical spray.
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*Almost completely countered... don't forget the 'impact' damage as I like to call it... flame particles still do damage upon hitting a component.