Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Milevan Faent on March 03, 2014, 06:19:43 pm

Title: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 03, 2014, 06:19:43 pm
So I've been thinking. Right now, the poor Gunner is outnumbered 2 to 1 in favor of Engineers (sometimes he doesn't even get hired for a ship at all). What if there was a fourth option though, so instead of ships being lopsided, all ships had 1 of each class? This has been discussed a few times in many different ways, but often it's just "Gungineer" concepts, or concepts that mix what's already there together in some way. This thread is for a concept that's NEW though, not just a remix. The name is a WIP but otherwise, I kind of like the idea. Also, due to the fact they still have 1 slot for each category that already exists, they can still be a backup Engineer/Gunner when not doing their primary role.

Communications Officer (or something like that)

Their primary role is information warfare. They would get things that can be used to gather intel, or disrupt intel gathering, depending on their loadout. Examples include tools that add extra information when they're looking at the map (like course predictions for known ships, loadout idenification, ship identification, estimated time to get to a ship or get in firing range of a ship, and so on), tools that hide the ship from the map, tools that can break enemy locks, and so on. Range-Finder could be repurposed into a Comm Officer tool as well. While not necessarily as useful directly as say an Engineer or Gunner, they can provide a utility to your ship that can aid in tactical actions.

Details for how they would actually play can be discussed below if people are interested in the concept idea itself. Like hiding the ship would probably function similar to buffing the ship, and require either an action on the hull, or maybe even on the entire ship to fully hide it.




Update!

Thanks to everyone who has commented so far. Below are some example tools, provided by people who have responded.

Possible tools:

Sonic cone: Allows for short to medium range spotting through clouds.
Gauge: Gives all crew an indicator of engine throttles on enemy ships.
Resonator: Shows targeted ship's permahull. When used as a 'buff' tool on your own hull, temporarily prevents foes from doing the same to you.
Scrambler: Puts false ship markers on the map.
etc..

I could see a support class being really useful. Something like a Quartermaster/Strategist.

Cat O' Nine Tails - While equipped, crew move and perform actions 10% faster (running, repairs, rebuilds, reloading). Must be held for at least 10 seconds before effect starts. Effects end immediately when removed.
I've got your motivation right here!

Paints - Can be used on the hull and balloon to temporarily change the color of the flags and balloon paint. Used to confuse the enemy. Prevents spotting when used on both components.
What, that? That's always been red. I mean blue. I mean... FIRE!!

Inspection Lens - Used to give an estimate of hull, armor and balloon health on targeted ships.
Hm.. burn marks on the balloon, armor compromised by bullet holes, hull held together with what appears to be rope made of shirts. One more volley ought to do it.

Advanced Spy Glass - Allows precision marking of ship components, causes marked components to 'glow' for the crew. (Can spot guns and engines, makes them appear as a bright red for easier targeting. Wears off after 30 seconds)
It's right there, you can't miss it!

Decoy - Spawns a dummy ship that flies directly away from the ship, begins shooting randomly after 10 seconds. After 12 seconds it becomes 'spotted' by the enemy with the ship's name. Used as a distraction/diversion. Can only spawn one at a time. Skill is usable again after decoy is destroyed. Decoy self destructs after 1 minute.
It's a trap!!

Sound Amplifier - Use this tool to target an enemy ship and be able to hear the team voice chat/signals as well as read their crew chat and team chat. Takes five seconds to calibrate once a ship is locked. (works similar to range finder)
Sir, they seem to be saying terrible things about your mother

White Noise Generator - Adds random false information to the combat log. (ie: Jimmy destroyed Hull ; John Rebuilt Balloon , etc. Using names of players in the game for these actions that didn't actually happen)
Too bad it took them so long to notice that Jimmy really did break their hull

Thermal Detector - Estimates ship location based on heat readings. Does not work while your engines are running. Gives a reading every 10 seconds, readings are 3 seconds behind. (every ten seconds it will give you an idea of where they were three seconds ago). Only works if their engines are running, only works within 800 meters. Does not distinguish between ally and enemy.
Warmer... warmer..... Oh wait that's us.

Insulation - Buff used on the engines, reduces their output by 5%, reduces thermal detector's range by 30% for large engines and 20% for small.
Let's see them find us now.

These are all great ideas (for the most part, as some are more silly than anything). To clarify something, the intention of this class is to be like every other class, thus the other classes could take 1 tool from this class, and it takes 1 tool from each of them. It won't be special in any way aside from the utility it provides to a ship.

Many of these tools could be used while on Guns, thus allowing improved utility as a back-up gunner, while many of its abilities can also be used while on the move, or require using them on specific parts of the ship, thus allowing the class to play a backup engie too. While not as good at either job, it is viable due to he way it plays.

To use some of the examples quoted above: Thermal Detector, White Noise Generator, Sound Amplifier, and Sonic Cone could potentially be concepts that work even while on the guns. Using them while on guns would not reload the ammo, but it would reload default ammo during the next reload unless you switch to your 1 ammo type.

For quasi-engie examples, we have Insulation, Paints, and Resonator. While none of them fix the ship, they do require you to move around the ship to get to various parts, meanwhile you can switch to your wrench and hit them to heal them up a bit too.

Surprisingly, if you don't mind losing some mobility options, you can even play this as a quasi-pilot, using Phoenix Claw as the pilot tool, Advanced Spy Glass to call targets, and Decoy and Scrambler to help draw ships away from your own.

While these are not necessarily exactly what I would want to see as final tools for the concept, they DO (for the most part, aside from the Cat O' Nine Tails, which is just silly) embody the spirit of the concept. That's why I wanted to bring attention to these concepts specifically. Any other ideas that are added to this thread might be added up here to keep all the best suggestions together.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Imagine on March 03, 2014, 06:56:04 pm
There's a fourth class already in the works, though Muse is keeping a tight lid on what it is at this point.

As for what you suggested, it's probably not good enough to actually keep a ship going vs traditional setups once you get into an actual battle.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 03, 2014, 07:02:10 pm
Interesting. So they would take one pilot tool, one gunner tool, and one engineer tool, then choose three class specific tools that no other class could take (let's face it, adding another set of tools to other classes would get pretty crowded.

Possible tools:

Sonic cone: Allows for short to medium range spotting through clouds.
Gauge: Gives all crew an indicator of engine throttles on enemy ships.
Resonator: Shows targeted ship's permahull. When used as a 'buff' tool on your own hull, temporarily prevents foes from doing the same to you.
Scrambler: Puts false ship markers on the map.
etc..

Not sure how much something like this would be used, but interesting idea.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 03, 2014, 09:00:29 pm
There's a fourth class already in the works, though Muse is keeping a tight lid on what it is at this point.

As for what you suggested, it's probably not good enough to actually keep a ship going vs traditional setups once you get into an actual battle.

I didn't know they had an actual plan already. Any suggestions for improvements to the concept, or alternatives that might be more useful?
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Imagine on March 03, 2014, 09:12:04 pm
There's a fourth class already in the works, though Muse is keeping a tight lid on what it is at this point.

As for what you suggested, it's probably not good enough to actually keep a ship going vs traditional setups once you get into an actual battle.

I didn't know they had an actual plan already. Any suggestions for improvements to the concept, or alternatives that might be more useful?
I'd love to provide some, but I'm generally terrible at such things and really don't know what they could make that would be more useful than gunner/engie/pilot.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on March 03, 2014, 09:53:39 pm
what about an option to sleep with the captain or a way to promote inner racial tolerance?
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 04, 2014, 12:21:19 pm
Tools would be flowers, chocolate, beer, cheesy poetry, flattery, and a cot?
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: HamsterIV on March 05, 2014, 12:32:30 pm
Even though there would never be boarding, how about a marine class? The more marines you have on  your crew the faster you capture points. Maybe even capture through an enemy block if the other team doesn't have marines on point.

Mechanically Marines could just run faster than the average crew member and make do with one engineer tool and one ammo type.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Thomas on March 05, 2014, 04:55:39 pm
I could see a support class being really useful. Something like a Quartermaster/Strategist.

Cat O' Nine Tails - While equipped, crew move and perform actions 10% faster (running, repairs, rebuilds, reloading). Must be held for at least 10 seconds before effect starts. Effects end immediately when removed.
I've got your motivation right here!

Paints - Can be used on the hull and balloon to temporarily change the color of the flags and balloon paint. Used to confuse the enemy. Prevents spotting when used on both components.
What, that? That's always been red. I mean blue. I mean... FIRE!!

Inspection Lens - Used to give an estimate of hull, armor and balloon health on targeted ships.
Hm.. burn marks on the balloon, armor compromised by bullet holes, hull held together with what appears to be rope made of shirts. One more volley ought to do it.

Advanced Spy Glass - Allows precision marking of ship components, causes marked components to 'glow' for the crew. (Can spot guns and engines, makes them appear as a bright red for easier targeting. Wears off after 30 seconds)
It's right there, you can't miss it!

Decoy - Spawns a dummy ship that flies directly away from the ship, begins shooting randomly after 10 seconds. After 12 seconds it becomes 'spotted' by the enemy with the ship's name. Used as a distraction/diversion. Can only spawn one at a time. Skill is usable again after decoy is destroyed. Decoy self destructs after 1 minute.
It's a trap!!

Sound Amplifier - Use this tool to target an enemy ship and be able to hear the team voice chat/signals as well as read their crew chat and team chat. Takes five seconds to calibrate once a ship is locked. (works similar to range finder)
Sir, they seem to be saying terrible things about your mother

White Noise Generator - Adds random false information to the combat log. (ie: Jimmy destroyed Hull ; John Rebuilt Balloon , etc. Using names of players in the game for these actions that didn't actually happen)
Too bad it took them so long to notice that Jimmy really did break their hull

Thermal Detector - Estimates ship location based on heat readings. Does not work while your engines are running. Gives a reading every 10 seconds, readings are 3 seconds behind. (every ten seconds it will give you an idea of where they were three seconds ago). Only works if their engines are running, only works within 800 meters. Does not distinguish between ally and enemy.
Warmer... warmer..... Oh wait that's us.

Insulation - Buff used on the engines, reduces their output by 5%, reduces thermal detector's range by 30% for large engines and 20% for small.
Let's see them find us now.


I think ideally they would have access to three of their tools, one gunner, and one engineer.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 06, 2014, 09:46:57 pm
Added examples and explanations of some of my thoughts to the OP (this is just to alert people who may be watching this thread, but haven't looked in it since the update).
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Thomas on March 07, 2014, 02:46:40 am
My only question, and perhaps I missed it somewhere, would be where would the tools go? Would this be considered a separate set of tools, and everyone gets to bring 6 items instead of 5 (3 from their role, 1 from each of the others). Or would the tools be divided among the other roles, and this wouldn't be an official new role, but something more like the gungineer?

In my initial response, I considered the idea that it would be a separate role, but it's the only one with access to those tools. Essentially bringing three of their own, and 1 of engi and gunner. (none of pilot).

However, I could see the tools belonging in the pilot or gunner category, allowing for a pseudo role (or just giving gunners a bigger variety).

I'm not sure how it would affect the game to create another tool category; although it would most certainly change how matches are played.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 07, 2014, 03:29:39 am
My only question, and perhaps I missed it somewhere, would be where would the tools go? Would this be considered a separate set of tools, and everyone gets to bring 6 items instead of 5 (3 from their role, 1 from each of the others). Or would the tools be divided among the other roles, and this wouldn't be an official new role, but something more like the gungineer?

In my initial response, I considered the idea that it would be a separate role, but it's the only one with access to those tools. Essentially bringing three of their own, and 1 of engi and gunner. (none of pilot).

However, I could see the tools belonging in the pilot or gunner category, allowing for a pseudo role (or just giving gunners a bigger variety).

I'm not sure how it would affect the game to create another tool category; although it would most certainly change how matches are played.

This would be a full new class, which means every class gets 1 more tool option. This is certainly how any fourth class made by Muse will also work, as I am certain they won't make a fourth class that's different from the others, aside from its toolset. I added this to my explanation in the OP. So adding this class means every class now has 6 tools.

As explained in the OP, many of the tools can be used pretty much wherever. This means they can fill the role of "secondary gunner" or "secondary engineer", in addition to their base support role. They can even be "secondary pilot" in the few cases where it might be used, like on the Spire, with the Pilot and whoever is in this role swapping between their assigned gun and the pilot wheel (while their primary gun is reloading), thus ensuring there is always a pilot. In other cases, since they have to move around the ship all the time ANYWAY, playing a secondary engineer is just natural, while if you have a lot of items that can work while on a gun, you have no reason to not also be manning guns when possible. In this way, the class fills a secondary role in all the current classes, with its own unique twist to each of them. While it will never have the mobility of a pilot, the repair power of an engineer, or the ammo control of a gunner, it will have its own options that serve similar roles (if only loosely), with a focus on information warfare, debuffs, buffs, and information gathering.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Coldcurse on March 07, 2014, 08:53:39 am
Asfor the decoy thing. Yeah I always have a spare inflateable galleon in my pocket...
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Spud Nick on March 07, 2014, 10:33:24 am
Is that an inflateable galleon in your pocket or are you just happy to see my armor down?
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Thomas on March 07, 2014, 12:08:04 pm
I think the idea is to have a small dummy target (like in practice mode), since that's a mechanic that already exists. Chances are, anyone that see's it won't be fooled, but if they hear it and it shows up with the ship name on a spot, they can be temporarily tricked until they actually head over to it.

So you could send it off down one side of the canyon in Canyon Ambush while you quickly head to the other side. They'll hear the shots being fired and see the 'spot' and assume it's your ship (or make an educated guess that it's not) while you flank them from the other side. You send it off into some clouds on dunes and make them think you're coming through a dust storm while instead you used this time to hide behind the structure.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: SirNotlag on March 07, 2014, 07:02:09 pm
2 other ideas for tools for the new class could be An acoustic listening device and a hand held flare gun.

Acoustic listening device: the user points the device and it has a cone of like 5 degrees or something, if an enemy ship is within the cone whether its visible or not it shows up on the map and the user can hear its engines to indicate hes found something. It does not work if the enemy ship turns their engines off.

hand held flare gun: works like the beacon flare gun but only one shot before having to reload, less range and it does not damage an enemy ship if you shoot it with the flares.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: The Sky Wolf on March 15, 2014, 10:33:17 pm
The new class Muse is developing is Deckhand, it will be able to have 2 of every slot instead of 3 slots for 1 skill and 1 slot for the other 2 skills.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 15, 2014, 10:34:16 pm
The new class Muse is developing is Deckhand, it will be able to have 2 of every slot instead of 3 slots for 1 skill and 1 slot for the other 2 skills.

Can you show proof of this?
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: The Sky Wolf on March 15, 2014, 10:36:58 pm
Yes.

(http://www.fritzcartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/all-hands-on-deck-w.jpg)
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 15, 2014, 10:37:36 pm
Yes.

(http://www.fritzcartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/all-hands-on-deck-w.jpg)

XD That's not proof.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 16, 2014, 02:44:00 am
The new class Muse is developing is Deckhand, it will be able to have 2 of every slot instead of 3 slots for 1 skill and 1 slot for the other 2 skills.

Ya wanna know the funniest thing about this? Muse would never make it, because this concept is inherently broken. If they released anything even close to this, suddenly games are made up of 4 Deckhands, and that's it. Every other class completely disappears.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Tanya Phenole on March 16, 2014, 03:14:29 am
Third class completely destroys other game's balance.

One engineer left can't handle all repairs. That is why there will be no gunners at all. 1 new class, 2 engineers

With such powerful strategic skills, Communications officer requres captains slot, because such abilities based on strategy and teamwork. Pilots will be degraded to crews, what definitely turn off a lot of them from piloting.

I am pretty sure that Gunner class fixing can be simply  a better damage or increased profit  from ammo. something like 5-7% of extra damage or projectile speed, or some targeting information like angles, + increase engineers on-ship running speed for 5%.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: macmacnick on March 16, 2014, 03:18:33 am
Gunner tools. End of argument. (Buffs to damage are highly unlikely to happen for only one class)
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 16, 2014, 03:21:31 am
Third class completely destroys other game's balance.

One engineer left can't handle all repairs. That is why there will be no gunners at all. 1 new class, 2 engineers

With such powerful strategic skills, Communications officer requres captains slot, because such abilities based on strategy and teamwork. Pilots will be degraded to crews, what definitely turn off a lot of them from piloting.

I am pretty sure that Gunner class fixing can be simply  a better damage or increased profit  from ammo. something like 5-7% of extra damage or projectile speed, or some targeting information like angles, + increase engineers on-ship running speed for 5%.

Except Muse has said they won't do Passive abilities for classes like that, so that kind of fix will never happen. Also, this class suggestion doesn't kill Gunners or Engineers at all, as it's designed to act as an effective alternative. This class would be capable of playing like an Engie, just without the super-repair power they have. It can play like a Gunner, but without the control a Gunner has. A Pilot can't be "degraded" as their job is the most important one. They are even more important than Engineers. While the Communications Officer concept can act as an alternative to a Captain as well, it has its own downsides when used in that way, same as with all the other classes. It can fill the roles already in the game, but in its own way.

Ideally, the goal of a fourth class is to make it so there's 1 of every class on every ship. That's my end goal here. "Fixing" gunners won't do that, in fact fixing gunners is near impossible right now. It would take a really good idea to make them as valuable as an Engie to the team.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 16, 2014, 03:22:19 am
Gunner tools. End of argument. (Buffs to damage are highly unlikely to happen for only one class)

.... What argument? And can you please use complete sentences? I'm not even sure who you're responding to.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Omniraptor on March 16, 2014, 04:48:07 am
Except Muse has said they won't do Passive abilities for classes like that, so that kind of fix will never happen.

Where exactly have they said this? Can you provide a link?
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 16, 2014, 04:54:42 am
Except Muse has said they won't do Passive abilities for classes like that, so that kind of fix will never happen.

Where exactly have they said this? Can you provide a link?

Can't recall where I heard it, but I think it was mentioned on one of the Dev Fireside livestreams. I may be remembering wrong, but I'm still pretty sure of it. Sure as hell can't remember which one though regardless.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: The Churrosaur on March 16, 2014, 05:37:56 pm
Or they could just bring back reload springs.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Tanya Phenole on March 17, 2014, 03:05:43 am
 
Quote
Also, this class suggestion doesn't kill Gunners or Engineers at all, as it's designed to act as an effective alternative.

Now tell me how one engineer will handle all repairs... on pyramidion, for example.  On  galleon. On spire. ALONE . With pilot gunner and communications officer, all three with wrench

Quote
This class would be capable of playing like an Engie, just without the super-repair power they have. It can play like a Gunner, but without the control a Gunner has.

Engineer HAS NO_SUPER_REPAIR power. That is why Pilots take two or three engineers to  have a slight chance of surviving in encounter. With the possibility of crew consisting of two engineers , CO an pilot, no one will take gunner on board unless Muse restricts "1 slot for 1 crew"

Quote
A Pilot can't be "degraded" as their job is the most important one. They are even more important than Engineers. While the Communications Officer concept can act as an alternative to a Captain as well, it has its own downsides when used in that way, same as with all the other classes. It can fill the roles already in the game, but in its own way.

I feel like I need to explain my point. Many pilots are strong leaders. They need power to handle, it is the essence of piloting, and even more important than simply driving a ship. Comm. Officer concept rips pulls power away from pilots hands, degrading pilot from Captain slot to crew slot.  Take this power away and a lot of active pilots  will lose interest to game.


I suppose Gunner class have not deserved it's misrespect from newer players. And current class system is almost perfect, and needs no massive intrusions like bringing up new class



Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 17, 2014, 03:25:51 am
Quote
Also, this class suggestion doesn't kill Gunners or Engineers at all, as it's designed to act as an effective alternative.

Now tell me how one engineer will handle all repairs... on pyramidion, for example.  On  galleon. On spire. ALONE . With pilot gunner and communications officer, all three with wrench

Quote
This class would be capable of playing like an Engie, just without the super-repair power they have. It can play like a Gunner, but without the control a Gunner has.

Engineer HAS NO_SUPER_REPAIR power. That is why Pilots take two or three engineers to  have a slight chance of surviving in encounter. With the possibility of crew consisting of two engineers , CO an pilot, no one will take gunner on board unless Muse restricts "1 slot for 1 crew"

Quote
A Pilot can't be "degraded" as their job is the most important one. They are even more important than Engineers. While the Communications Officer concept can act as an alternative to a Captain as well, it has its own downsides when used in that way, same as with all the other classes. It can fill the roles already in the game, but in its own way.

I feel like I need to explain my point. Many pilots are strong leaders. They need power to handle, it is the essence of piloting, and even more important than simply driving a ship. Comm. Officer concept rips pulls power away from pilots hands, degrading pilot from Captain slot to crew slot.  Take this power away and a lot of active pilots  will lose interest to game.


I suppose Gunner class have not deserved it's misrespect from newer players. And current class system is almost perfect, and needs no massive intrusions like bringing up new class

Except most of the time, on the average ship, a single Engie COULD manage the important stuff, as long as someone was dedicated to serving as a secondary repair person. Lets use your "problem ships" as an example.

Pyramidian: It only ever needs one Engie anyway, as the Engie's entire job is sitting on the lower deck keeping the hull and engines working. The second engie is always stationed at the balloon anyway. This job can EASILY be managed by a Comm Officer, or even a Gunner. The ability to super-repair is NOT a necessity for this. Hell, the Comm Officer takes Mallet, the Gunner takes Spanner, and together they can maintain the balloon and guns, leaving the engines and hull to the actual Engineer.

Galleon: Really, the Galleon is a tricky ship even with 2 Engies, so it's a ship that may not want a Comm Officer. However, if one is used, it could be assigned to the lower deck as a Gunner Comm Officer, maintaining the weapons lower-deck engines. Meanwhile, the Pilot actually sets up to help repair the balloon in a pinch, and the actual Engie goes where needed, with the Hull being their primary focus. While two engies could maintain the ship as a whole easier, it's not absolutely necessary. This ship does require more coordination between all the members regardless though.

Spire: A single Engie can actually maintain the entire Spire pretty easily if they know what they're doing, as long as they can keep the armor up. It's possible to hit the Hull with Mallet, drop down and hit the Balloon with Mallet, and get back to the Hull just as the cooldown from Mallet ends, and hit it again to start the loop over. That said, I'd put the Comm Officer on repair duty primarily on this ship, with their role being to repair destroyed parts rather than to keep things alive. Once the armor can be restored, the main Engie can easily use the parkour loop to restore the armor while maintaining the armor on the other part. Fixing broken engines and guns can be shared, with shooting happening whenever. Again, they don't need super-repair power, they just need to not spend 90% of their time on the guns. Even a Gunner could fulfill this role in the current game, if they didn't sit on the guns all the time. While they will obviously not be able to pull the trick the Engie can with Quick Repair then full Armor in a very short time, they can do basic repairs.

Basically, let the Engie deal with the Emergency Repairs, while the Comm Officer deals with routine maintainance, buffs, and information warfare. All of which it can do while doing said routine maintainance.

Now, as to what you've said about Pilots. You seem to have this belief that a Pilot, the only person on the entire ship who can effectively fly the damn thing, would lose their role as Captain if the Comm Officer was made. While Comm Officer has a LOT of tactical ability, and can act as a replacement Captain, they still can't fly the ship any better than any other non-Pilot. Is it possible they could replace a Pilot-Captain? Of course. I even designed them with that as an option. Will they automatically become a complete replacement? Hell no! Even as much as I like this class, I would still always play as a Pilot, and ask someone else to serve as my Comm Officer. I would guide their tactics, and listen to them if they have any ideas, but I'd still play as a Pilot. A ship can't really fly without a Pilot. A Comm Officer could manage to play as a workable alternative, but they will ALWAYS be out-flown by a Pilot-Captain due to the maneuverability that they have. They'll just have more annoying tricks, and could play deceptively and with decent stealth. In a 4v4, I may even suggest one ship have a Comm Officer-Captain just so we have that wild-card, but I still expect anyone not on a Pyra, Galleon, or Spire would prefer a Pilot just for sheer maneuverability. And even on them, it would be a good idea in general. Certainly I'd never fly my Squid with anything but a Pilot.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Thomas on March 17, 2014, 03:33:02 am
I would agree that the proposed class doesn't kill gunners or engineers. For that to happen, it would have to replace them or be more useful than they are in those respective roles. Skipping past gunner debates it was pointed out that a solo engineer can't keep up all the repairs on their own. This can be argued, but it essentially points out that in most cases, having a second engineer would be preferred to having a communication officer. So it's not affecting those classes at all, since they would be chosen over the proposed class. By some people. All in all, roles are pretty flexible. There's no requirement to have one of each.


Of course you can argue the gunnery position, but essentially it'd be the same as having an engineer as a gunner. Or a pilot. So that's more on the gunner role than the new proposed one.


For it being a captain, I could only say 'maybe?'. Essentially the pilot is the coordinator. They're generally stationary on the ship, keeping an eye on the crew and the surroundings, calling out targets, reminding crew of components that need attention, etc. So far the proposed tools for the proposed class still require a lot of running around and focusing on little things, like the engineer and gunner; making it a poor choice for a captain. What makes pilots be a great captain choice is from them being less likely to get the tunnel vision. Gunners are busy shooting the guy in front of them and might be zoomed in to not even notice the other target they could hit (literal tunnel vision), needing someone to coordinate them to change targets. Engineers are busy fixing and buffing and running all over on top of shooting as well, they can't do all that and keep track of everything going on.

If the communication officer was the captain, they'd have to run around less and keep a better eye on the crew and the surroundings, giving orders to the engineer, gunner, and pilot. This makes them far less useful, since they wouldn't be able to focus on doing their own job; because doing something besides piloting the ship leads to tunnel vision.



All that being said, it would be a pain to balance. Although it would be interesting to see the new strategies and play styles develop.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Tanya Phenole on March 18, 2014, 07:51:50 am
 
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Except most of the time, on the average ship, a single Engie COULD manage the important stuff, as long as someone was dedicated to serving as a secondary repair person. Lets use your "problem ships" as an example.
All ships are "problem" in encounter. There are no interest in maximum possible HPS, the repairing-bebuilding-cooldown balance is based on idea you need to be IN proper time ON proper place. That is why we have "responsibility" zones on all the ships, where parts are divided between engineers focus.

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Pyramidian: It only ever needs one Engie anyway, as the Engie's entire job is sitting on the lower deck keeping the hull and engines working. The second engie is always stationed at the balloon anyway. This job can EASILY be managed by a Comm Officer, or even a Gunner. The ability to super-repair is NOT a necessity for this. Hell, the Comm Officer takes Mallet, the Gunner takes Spanner, and together they can maintain the balloon and guns, leaving the engines and hull to the actual Engineer.
  Fisrt enemy with caffonade or  flametrower (or incendiary carronade) will be your painful death. Because destroyed baloon is a HUGE HOLE for hull damage. As well, balloon is most vulnerable to fire, so that it must be chemspayed all the time. So in the situation of real combat your people will not be on guns, but on baloon.



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Galleon: Really, the Galleon is a tricky ship even with 2 Engies, so it's a ship that may not want a Comm Officer. However, if one is used, it could be assigned to the lower deck as a Gunner Comm Officer, maintaining the weapons lower-deck engines. Meanwhile, the Pilot actually sets up to help repair the balloon in a pinch, and the actual Engie goes where needed, with the Hull being their primary focus. While two engies could maintain the ship as a whole easier, it's not absolutely necessary. This ship does require more coordination between all the members regardless though.

You have not even invented the new class, but already founf where is it unneccessary.  ;D


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Spire: A single Engie can actually maintain the entire Spire pretty easily if they know what they're doing, as long as they can keep the armor up. It's possible to hit the Hull with Mallet, drop down and hit the Balloon with Mallet, and get back to the Hull just as the cooldown from Mallet ends, and hit it again to start the loop over. That said, I'd put the Comm Officer on repair duty primarily on this ship, with their role being to repair destroyed parts rather than to keep things alive. Once the armor can be restored, the main Engie can easily use the parkour loop to restore the armor while maintaining the armor on the other part. Fixing broken engines and guns can be shared, with shooting happening whenever. Again, they don't need super-repair power, they just need to not spend 90% of their time on the guns. Even a Gunner could fulfill this role in the current game, if they didn't sit on the guns all the time. While they will obviously not be able to pull the trick the Engie can with Quick Repair then full Armor in a very short time, they can do basic repairs.

I really want to see you playing as engineer, because you seem not to be much realistic.

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Basically, let the Engie deal with the Emergency Repairs, while the Comm Officer deals with routine maintainance, buffs, and information warfare. All of which it can do while doing said routine maintainance.
Everyone does emergency repairs. Even pilots.  Lueosi participated in rebuilds hundreds of times.


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Now, as to what you've said about Pilots. You seem to have this belief that a Pilot, the only person on the entire ship who can effectively fly the damn thing, would lose their role as Captain if the Comm Officer was made.

Good pilot is a leader with 8 hands, who manages setting crew, setting teammates crew, setting good enemy team on opposite side, talking with crews on match, talking with ally, deciding tactics, taking up conclusions, and well, for the last thing he moves the damn thing. Appearance of person who can be in charge for strategy will move a pilot to crew slot. And a lot of pilots will not like it, and decide to abandon the game.

Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 18, 2014, 08:47:45 am
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Except most of the time, on the average ship, a single Engie COULD manage the important stuff, as long as someone was dedicated to serving as a secondary repair person. Lets use your "problem ships" as an example.
All ships are "problem" in encounter. There are no interest in maximum possible HPS, the repairing-bebuilding-cooldown balance is based on idea you need to be IN proper time ON proper place. That is why we have "responsibility" zones on all the ships, where parts are divided between engineers focus.

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Pyramidian: It only ever needs one Engie anyway, as the Engie's entire job is sitting on the lower deck keeping the hull and engines working. The second engie is always stationed at the balloon anyway. This job can EASILY be managed by a Comm Officer, or even a Gunner. The ability to super-repair is NOT a necessity for this. Hell, the Comm Officer takes Mallet, the Gunner takes Spanner, and together they can maintain the balloon and guns, leaving the engines and hull to the actual Engineer.
  Fisrt enemy with caffonade or  flametrower (or incendiary carronade) will be your painful death. Because destroyed baloon is a HUGE HOLE for hull damage. As well, balloon is most vulnerable to fire, so that it must be chemspayed all the time. So in the situation of real combat your people will not be on guns, but on baloon.



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Galleon: Really, the Galleon is a tricky ship even with 2 Engies, so it's a ship that may not want a Comm Officer. However, if one is used, it could be assigned to the lower deck as a Gunner Comm Officer, maintaining the weapons lower-deck engines. Meanwhile, the Pilot actually sets up to help repair the balloon in a pinch, and the actual Engie goes where needed, with the Hull being their primary focus. While two engies could maintain the ship as a whole easier, it's not absolutely necessary. This ship does require more coordination between all the members regardless though.

You have not even invented the new class, but already founf where is it unneccessary.  ;D


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Spire: A single Engie can actually maintain the entire Spire pretty easily if they know what they're doing, as long as they can keep the armor up. It's possible to hit the Hull with Mallet, drop down and hit the Balloon with Mallet, and get back to the Hull just as the cooldown from Mallet ends, and hit it again to start the loop over. That said, I'd put the Comm Officer on repair duty primarily on this ship, with their role being to repair destroyed parts rather than to keep things alive. Once the armor can be restored, the main Engie can easily use the parkour loop to restore the armor while maintaining the armor on the other part. Fixing broken engines and guns can be shared, with shooting happening whenever. Again, they don't need super-repair power, they just need to not spend 90% of their time on the guns. Even a Gunner could fulfill this role in the current game, if they didn't sit on the guns all the time. While they will obviously not be able to pull the trick the Engie can with Quick Repair then full Armor in a very short time, they can do basic repairs.

I really want to see you playing as engineer, because you seem not to be much realistic.

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Basically, let the Engie deal with the Emergency Repairs, while the Comm Officer deals with routine maintainance, buffs, and information warfare. All of which it can do while doing said routine maintainance.
Everyone does emergency repairs. Even pilots.  Lueosi participated in rebuilds hundreds of times.


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Now, as to what you've said about Pilots. You seem to have this belief that a Pilot, the only person on the entire ship who can effectively fly the damn thing, would lose their role as Captain if the Comm Officer was made.

Good pilot is a leader with 8 hands, who manages setting crew, setting teammates crew, setting good enemy team on opposite side, talking with crews on match, talking with ally, deciding tactics, taking up conclusions, and well, for the last thing he moves the damn thing. Appearance of person who can be in charge for strategy will move a pilot to crew slot. And a lot of pilots will not like it, and decide to abandon the game.

I admit to not really playing Engies, but I have practiced in Practice Mode with them, actually testing out various Parkour things and trying to figure out how I would manage repairing the ship. I have personally managed the Spire trick on a heavily damaged Spire in Practice, so I know it's possible. If the armor gets broken it becomes much harder, but that's where the Comm Officer with Spanner or Wrench can help by covering repairs to destroyed components where possible, especially balloon or hull, leaving the Engie to actually heal the armor when it's back up, while keeping on the move so it can get to wherever they're needed. If this is feesable or not is something that needs to be tested, but it can be tested in game right now simply by taking 2 gunners and having one act as the Comm Officer would and seeing if it works like the theory says it should. Of course 2 Engies will be able to keep the ship in working condition EASIER, but the theory isn't that it will be AS GOOD, but GOOD ENOUGH. If of course it's proven to not be the case, then of course the concept has failed, and that's the end of it. Of course, the Comm Officer also has mostly tools that work on various components like the Engie, so they can end up moving around like the Engie would anyway. The role of the Engie making this circuit to maintain the Armor on Hull and Balloon could actually be swapped to the Comm Officer, leaving the Engie free to maintain everything else, but this obviously wouldn't work as well using a Gunner as a test.

That said, dispite your argument, the Comm Officer is STILL not going to kill Pilots. As has been said by others, the Pilot can only lead because they have only one job that doesn't require them to run around the ship like a chicken without a head that has tunnel vision. Comm Officers have to run around just like the other classes, or be on the guns. They COULD be a replacement Captain, but in that case they give up maneuverability as they would HAVE to be on the Pilot Wheel, thus also limiting what skills they can use to only ones that don't require them running to components. The Pilot will always be the better option for flying the ship, and thus being Captain, because they have no reason to ever go anywhere except for emergency repairs in the most DIRE of situations.

As for the balloon being on fire.... you do realize there are so many ways to deal with that it's not even funny? An engie stationed up there doesn't even need to chemspray it, the main engie could run up there to do that if its such a big deal. That said, the setup I was talking about is specifically designed to repair the balloon just as fast as an engie, but requiring 2 people. Yes, that means you stop shooting. But when the ship is dying, you tend to stop shooting ANYWAY because you can't hit targets as you're falling to your death. That said, in a "combat situation" only one gun ever needs to fire on the Pyramidion at a time. The Comm Officer with a Mallet makes sure the Balloon stays up while waiting for the gunner to take out the armor, then the Comm Officer switches to shooting while the Gunner moves to fix the balloon as soon as it finally breaks. The Main Engie could even just take a fire extinquisher and extinquish fires that way, rather than using chem spray. Only time I ever even need chem spray is if the enemy actually takes a flamethrower anyway.

As for the Galleon not needing a Comm Officer... of course not every ship needs all the classes, if they did then something is wrong. Ideally, it should be possible to take 2 Gunners and 1 Engie and still be considered viable in this game, but that's not the case right now. While a Comm Officer can offer some value, the Galleon is a pain to manage in general, so it's a situation where two engies can be more valuable than the tactical ability of a Comm Officer, no matter the situation. That's not a fault of the class, but a simple fact of the ship being that much harder to fly as a crew. While it's POSSIBLE to take a 1/1/1/1 team, it's not likely to be as effective on the Galleon as it would be on other ships, due simply to the problems you'd run into on the Galleon.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Alistair MacBain on March 18, 2014, 09:03:59 am
One engineer covering a whole ship?
Not really.
The com officer would need to use a wrench which renders his repair/rebuild capabilities. That wouldnt be an issue but he would still miss the extinguisher and with a Hades for example you will be pretty damn hindered. While all those tools sound nice they are rarely a benefit in a fight.
They are nice tactical things when out of fight but once you are actually engaging most of those tools dont do anything.

A flamer shooting at you will pretty much pin you down forever.
You already sacrifice alot when using a buff engineer with wrench buff ext. You sacrifice a faster rebuild usually on the balloon. That can already cripple you quite well.
If you miss the extinguisher in that aswell you are similiar to a gunner ...

This com officer will probably more replace the gunner than actually be used instead of an engineer.
OR you wont have a com officer at all and the crew will just specify their com loadout aswell so you cover the most important parts ...
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 18, 2014, 09:33:02 am
Okay, lets try making some new item concepts.

Cloudmaker: Acts as a Buff on the Engines. When all the engines have this buff, reduce their output by 50%, but the entire ship creates a cloud around it (large enough to not only hide the ship, but potentially large enough to make it harder to find the ship in the cloud, especially if there are other clouds nearby). This lasts for 60 seconds, until another buff is applied to the engines, or until the engines take damage.

Tracking Device: Acts as a buff on guns. When a gun with this buff hits a target, that target is automatically marked and cannot lose mark for 10 seconds.

I'm sure I could come up with more given time, but I just ran out of time for the moment. Any ideas for things that can improve the usefulness of the class during combat are welcome btw.
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Caprontos on March 18, 2014, 10:37:46 am
I think the downside to this class is... with 4 people that's 4 tools from the class on a ship - which is probably plenty in most cases..

Meaning the only time people will use this class is to level it up and probably not in to many serious situations.. Sorta like using a gunner in many silly to be gunner spots (like gatling gunner).. I highly doubt it would replace a second engineer or remove the 3 engi ship advantage..

I do like that the idea is based around a whole new thing, I just don't know how useful it is in practice as it's own class..

Personally I'd rather see Muse focus on fleshing out the three classes we have now, then adding an entirely new class.. (ie new tools new ammo to add more variation on what a class can do).
Title: Re: New Class: Communications Officer (not another Gungineer thread)
Post by: Omniraptor on March 19, 2014, 03:05:49 pm
Except Muse has said they won't do Passive abilities for classes like that, so that kind of fix will never happen.

Where exactly have they said this? Can you provide a link?

Can't recall where I heard it, but I think it was mentioned on one of the Dev Fireside livestreams. I may be remembering wrong, but I'm still pretty sure of it. Sure as hell can't remember which one though regardless.

Found an old link where cullen proposed passive bonuses for gunners and was shouted down by players https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,410.msg19567.html#msg19567