Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: The Sky Wolf on February 28, 2014, 11:19:31 pm

Title: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: The Sky Wolf on February 28, 2014, 11:19:31 pm
Guns of Icarus is pretty much reversed naval combat in the sky. Therefore anything that would've been used by the Navy for deep sea purposes should have an Airship-Air Force equivalent for high altitude purposes?

Airships = Warship, while a High Altitude Blimb = Submarine? Stealth Bombers are basically the Submarines of the sky.. So maybe in Adventure Mode there might be one reason or another to use large blimps loaded with millions of cubic tons of hydrogen for high altitude stealth missions.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Chmielewski on March 01, 2014, 03:25:50 am
"Large", "stealth" and "sky" are not very match each other. Only when clouds are low, possibly - and still very slow, I think.
Thing is, the main thing about stealth  aircraft is that they're difficult to locate with radars. There's no such thing as radar (I'm quite sure of it) in GoI world, so "stealth" airship is  nonsense in general. Oh I think it´s something to discuss!

There would be large ships in Coop and Adventure mode though. Like, boss ships.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Swizy on March 01, 2014, 06:44:24 am
(http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk256/RobLangham/a2-42.jpg)

this is a sound mirror. It was used during the first world war to detect german bomber zeppelin invading england. They can detect sounds of these vessels up to 25 miles away. it's quite possible to have a early warning system in goio.

but back on topic, high altitude blimps wouldn't be called submarine but rather surmarine. There certainly are different classes of airships. From top it'd be cool to see something like the goliath from castle in the sky:

(http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/LittleDavey/SuperProjects/Goliath/fulllength.bmp)

highly armored and large guns but very little momentum and top speed. from there on everything down to the squid.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Tropo on March 01, 2014, 06:50:03 am
millions of cubic tons of hydrogen for high altitude " Hydrogen not measure in cubic as it is a gas how ever i understand


actually in today's blimps and future blimps they can and do compress large storage vessel inside the balloons and they can release them at any time

was originally design so a air ship could land unload cargo and then take off
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: The Sky Wolf on March 01, 2014, 08:23:23 pm
"Large", "stealth" and "sky" are not very match each other. Only when clouds are low, possibly - and still very slow, I think.
Thing is, the main thing about stealth  aircraft is that they're difficult to locate with radars. There's no such thing as radar (I'm quite sure of it) in GoI world, so "stealth" airship is  nonsense in general. Oh I think it´s something to discuss!

There would be large ships in Coop and Adventure mode though. Like, boss ships.

Large zeppelins to carry masses of bombs relatively quietly.. and High altitude is one of the methods for air force stealth because.. Do I have to explain that?
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Chmielewski on March 02, 2014, 06:02:46 am
What I'm talking about (and not only me), that large blimps are easy to detect. Even the large airships  can't get higher 7000 m (taking as an example zeppelines of first world war). The Goi's ships can't get higher 3000 m, I'm sure of it.
The larger ship gets, the bigger it's engines are and the easier it becomes to detect (Swizy gave an exaple here). They are still should be pretty good as bombers, though.


This discussion made me wander with another question: what gas is used in balloons here in GoI? I doubt that it's hydrogen, because it's highly explosive. Any ideas?

Also, I just MUST leave this photo here, it's gorgeous.
(http://i2.obozrevatel.ua/13/1312610/gallery/488294.png)
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: macmacnick on March 02, 2014, 12:00:04 pm
Helium.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Piemanlives on March 02, 2014, 05:13:08 pm
Knowing that hydrogen is a tool, as Mac said it has to be helium, it's the standard gas that we use in modern airships so it's likely that is what the vessels of GoI use, unless they are fueled by unobtainium. 
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Swizy on March 02, 2014, 05:33:34 pm
It can't be any gas known to us. Otherwise no ship in goio would rise the slightest. it must be something even lighter then hydrogen, which is impossible but you know... airships.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Tropo on March 02, 2014, 06:07:46 pm
"actually in today's blimps and future blimps they can and do compress large storage vessel inside the balloons and they can release them at any time"

hydrogen is used in the above practise

helium is heavryer then hydrogen thats why in guns of icarus you go up faster when you use hydrogen
hyrogen also compresses more then helium

helium is more dangerous then hydrogen

what a lot of people think of when that think of airships is old and also wrong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lxSuuE9QDs
or  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPq5Ma20OAk

but what you really should be thinking is the amazing practical advertise of air shipping

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm_d0P4cMcw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GceGS-g8hbI

enjoy bros
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Thomas on March 02, 2014, 07:37:32 pm
As far as I'm aware, hydrogen is actually the more dangerous; since helium doesn't combust.

When dealing with lift of this nature, you need to think in terms of density. Compressing a 'lighter than air' gas makes it more dense, and actually causes it to produce less lift. So assuming you have a container and fill it with helium or hydrogen, it's going to float a bit. If you keep filling it (and it retains the same volume/shape), it will float less and less, and eventually not float at all.

Submarines work in a similar manner. By making their volume more dense (usually letting in water to the tanks) they can sink under the water at a controlled rate. Pushing water out of those tanks reduces the density and lets the submarine start floating upward.

The newer 'airships' in those videos work just like a submarine, but take in and release air to rise and descend.



I think it'd be possible for high altitude airships, but they would take some effort. Realistically you'd need to keep your crew warm and have adequate oxygen and pressure, which means it would likely have to be closed in. The airships in the game currently are 'low' altitude airships.

But for gameplay.... I can't see much enjoyment flying high above the clouds free of obstacles and other ships.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on March 02, 2014, 08:10:25 pm
Wouldn't need sound mirrors and such given the tech time period of GOIO and the old world.

If you look at the tech we had leading up to WWII, it wasn't as simplistic or steampunky as people think. Heck they were already making theories about Radar tech and some were even testing them. Wasn't till WWII till those things really saw the limelight but the prototypes and the early stages of development were there.

I only know cause I had to do a little research on some tech from that time period for the VN. Was surprised to see how far along some were.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Cheesy Crackers on March 03, 2014, 01:32:47 am
"Large", "stealth" and "sky" are not very match each other. Only when clouds are low, possibly - and still very slow, I think.
Thing is, the main thing about stealth  aircraft is that they're difficult to locate with radars. There's no such thing as radar (I'm quite sure of it) in GoI world, so "stealth" airship is  nonsense in general. Oh I think it´s something to discuss!

There would be large ships in Coop and Adventure mode though. Like, boss ships.

I think there's some kinda of "hedge hop" (Hopefully got the name right) strategy which is aircraft flying very low to the ground to avoid radar.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Chmielewski on March 03, 2014, 08:24:25 am
"Large", "stealth" and "sky" are not very match each other. Only when clouds are low, possibly - and still very slow, I think.
Thing is, the main thing about stealth  aircraft is that they're difficult to locate with radars. There's no such thing as radar (I'm quite sure of it) in GoI world, so "stealth" airship is  nonsense in general. Oh I think it´s something to discuss!

There would be large ships in Coop and Adventure mode though. Like, boss ships.

I think there's some kinda of "hedge hop" (Hopefully got the name right) strategy which is aircraft flying very low to the ground to avoid radar.
Of course you´re right!
First, this is aircraft, second, this is radar, third, the line "fly very high" is missing here =)

About helium. Isn't it's extraction and usage is too comlicated for Goi world? What do you think of it?
I like the idea of helium though.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: The Sky Wolf on March 04, 2014, 11:09:02 pm
Hydrogen is lighter than helium and more prevalent on the planet, as well as easier to obtain; in the game they offer you the option of bringing canisters of hydrogen along to replace lost hydrogen or to hyper-inflate the balloon to gain extra altitude quickly. So yeah, hydrogen is whats used in GoI for the airships - be it extremely combustible and impractical or not. So quit arguing over whether helium and hydrogen would be used the stealth bomber because this is extremely basic historical knowledge.

"In early dirigibles, the lifting gas used was hydrogen, despite widespread concern due to its flammability." ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship.

They didn't really stop using hydrogen until after the Hindenburg incident in May 6, 1937.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Swizy on March 05, 2014, 04:29:52 am
Helium nor Hydrogen is physically able to lift any of the designs of these vessels.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Milevan Faent on March 05, 2014, 05:00:52 am
Helium nor Hydrogen is physically able to lift any of the designs of these vessels.

... Most of these designs aren't logical to begin with. After all, what idiot would make the HULL of a ship also the balloon? As proven when you play the Mobula, the entire design is just illogical. Near impossible to repair without insane levels of coordination (or dedicated people sitting right there and never moving, thus giving the ship NO engineers for anything else, since it still only has a crew of 4 but needs a crew of like 5 or 6), and really easy to break (since 90% of what breaks either the balloon or the hull takes the other one with it). And let's not even mention the Spire (really? what dumbass thought THAT was a good idea? the balloon can't possibly be large enough to even lift that thing).

Based on that, Unobtainium is probably what's filling the balloons.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Swizy on March 05, 2014, 05:43:52 am
logical design or not, the numbers itself speak for that. Pyramidion has a mass of 200t. That's roughly as much as the Hindenburg had when boarded. Wiki tells me it had a balloon volume of 200.000 m³ to hold that.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on March 05, 2014, 07:30:47 am
I don't think any of the weights are accurate. None of the ships look the mass they are listed to be.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: The Sky Wolf on March 07, 2014, 10:42:16 pm
In real life a single rocket would cause irreversible damage to balloon; sending the lopsided airship crashing to the ground at 32ft per second. In real life a carronade shot would splatter the entire crew turning them to a slush of brains, guts, blood, eyeballs, hair, skin and many other things on the deck. In real life you can't fix an engine by smacking it with a rubber mallet %99.99 of the time.

 In real life a Gatling gun would easily and quickly shred every component of the ship including the crew and the rounds would not just disappear at only 700 meters, believe me. In real life you wouldn't reappear safely back aboard a ship after jumping off of it to your death.

 

"This also means we cannot turn the game to become realistic.  It's too late for that.  Under the hood, nothing was designed with realism in mind.  Again, it's a verisimilitude.  We only appear to be realistic, to have only a semblance of realism.  We'll add in things like accurate sights (the Lumberjack, thanks to those who mailed us a real weapons sight) or how a bullet should drop after long distances (e.g. Field Gun, but all our projectile physics), but it's not our aim to completely dive into realism at the sake of what I and the others on the team believe is 'fun' in this game.  Again, it's also just too late for that :P" ~ awkm from Muse Games - https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php?topic=572.0



What are you points guys? Let's pretend this is a game real quick and you can tell me about my stealth bomber suggestion for Adventure Mode  and how you think it would work and if it would be for players or NPCs.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Dutch Vanya on March 07, 2014, 11:29:19 pm
In real life a single rocket would cause irreversible damage to balloon; sending the lopsided airship crashing to the ground at 32ft per second. In real life a carronade shot would splatter the entire crew turning them to a slush of brains, guts, blood, eyeballs, hair, skin and many other things on the deck. In real life you can't fix an engine by smacking it with a rubber mallet %99.99 of the time.

 In real life a Gatling gun would easily and quickly shred every component of the ship including the crew and the rounds would not just disappear at only 700 meters, believe me. In real life you wouldn't reappear safely back aboard a ship after jumping off of it to your death.

 

"This also means we cannot turn the game to become realistic.  It's too late for that.  Under the hood, nothing was designed with realism in mind.  Again, it's a verisimilitude.  We only appear to be realistic, to have only a semblance of realism.  We'll add in things like accurate sights (the Lumberjack, thanks to those who mailed us a real weapons sight) or how a bullet should drop after long distances (e.g. Field Gun, but all our projectile physics), but it's not our aim to completely dive into realism at the sake of what I and the others on the team believe is 'fun' in this game.  Again, it's also just too late for that :P" ~ awkm from Muse Games - https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php?topic=572.0



What are you points guys? Let's pretend this is a game real quick and you can tell me about my stealth bomber suggestion for Adventure Mode  and how you think it would work and if it would be for players or NPCs.
You should have posted this in Gilder's realism thread.
Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: Thomas on March 08, 2014, 01:46:27 pm
It would likely have to be a very small part of the game. A large high flying stealth bomber would require your ship to fly very high, and be stealthy. This essentially means going through the nice open air without obstacles or enemies. This is pretty boring by itself, and shouldn't be a large part of any mission. Then you have to drop your payload, giving away your presence. At this point it's either mission complete (boring) or you need to fend off some ships as you make your escape.

Let's say it's large and slow moving. It would essentially turn into a turret game where players run to different guns to shoot the smaller ships that are attacking them (Original Guns of Icarus). Maybe it has some small ships of it's own that it releases and some dog-fighting ensues? That would have to be a whole new mechanic, but it is adventure mode, so that wouldn't be too much of a problem. Maybe. And then that's it I guess. Maybe you'd have other team ships on the outskirts that would have to rush to your rescue, or even enemy ships that would come in to destroy you. Kind of like a 'protect the king' type of gameplay. This would be pretty interesting.

However, to me at least, the stealth part seems fairly boring. Just floating through the sky. Maybe try to dodge some spotlights in the night?

Title: Re: Airships = Warship, High Altitude Blimp = Submarine?
Post by: The Sky Wolf on March 08, 2014, 07:36:22 pm
It would likely have to be a very small part of the game. A large high flying stealth bomber would require your ship to fly very high, and be stealthy. This essentially means going through the nice open air without obstacles or enemies. This is pretty boring by itself, and shouldn't be a large part of any mission. Then you have to drop your payload, giving away your presence. At this point it's either mission complete (boring) or you need to fend off some ships as you make your escape.

Let's say it's large and slow moving. It would essentially turn into a turret game where players run to different guns to shoot the smaller ships that are attacking them (Original Guns of Icarus). Maybe it has some small ships of it's own that it releases and some dog-fighting ensues? That would have to be a whole new mechanic, but it is adventure mode, so that wouldn't be too much of a problem. Maybe. And then that's it I guess. Maybe you'd have other team ships on the outskirts that would have to rush to your rescue, or even enemy ships that would come in to destroy you. Kind of like a 'protect the king' type of gameplay. This would be pretty interesting.

However, to me at least, the stealth part seems fairly boring. Just floating through the sky. Maybe try to dodge some spotlights in the night?

Good comment Thomas, that was very thorough; you get a salute for that one. The stealth part was only mentioned because I was attempting to establish a connection between submarines which are stealthy by nature and stealth bombers in the sky. Truth is the ship would probably work as a regular bomber but in an airship fashion.

It all started from me seeing all airship fighters and no bombers and thinking of ways bombers could be implemented into the game.