Guns Of Icarus Online

Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Anchorshag on February 20, 2014, 12:33:10 pm

Title: Junker OP?
Post by: Anchorshag on February 20, 2014, 12:33:10 pm
I only recently came back to the game after a decent while. Back when I played the Junker was pretty bad and an easy kill. Now it seems to be the compete opposite.
After me and my crew's Goldfish, our usual go-to ship, got wrecked by a  few Junkers we decided to give it a try for ourselves. At the right angle we can get 3 small guns firing on an enemy at once, we're currently rolling with artemises and gatlings, and it seriously just wrecks. The Junker can take a fair bit of punishment itself and isn't particularly slow.
So i'm curious to the more seasoned players' opinions. Is the Junker a killing machine now? OP perhaps isn't the right term but it's certainly seems the current top dog.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Alistair MacBain on February 20, 2014, 12:55:40 pm
The junker is a strong ship thats true. But you just cant compare it to a Goldfish.
Those 2 ships fill a different role in most cases.
The goldfish is pretty much a support only ship.
Its killpower is kinda low compared to other ships.

The junker however can fit most situations when you dont mind being a bid slower than your enemy.
The weakness of a junker is its big and juicy balloon. If you get above of him he cant do anything on his own to get out of the situation.


The problem with this is currently more that the goldfish doesnt fit in the current situation. That one gun focus the goldfish has doesnt fit alot of situations. You rather use a different ship that can easily point 2 weapons at the enemy and get pretty much the same.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Thomas on February 20, 2014, 01:08:27 pm
Personally I feel the same way. This is for a number of reasons, and most of it is just situational.

I'll go ahead and copy the table from my squidsassin guide over:

Ship Stats

ShipArmorHealthSpeed (m/s)Acceleration (m/s2)Turn Speed (degrees/s)Turn Accel. (degrees/s2)Vertical Speed (m/s)Vertical Accel. (m/s2)Mass (tonnes)
Goldfish400110040.113.513.997.9916.993.25150
Junker70050026.014.316.1815.2417.063.00125
Squid23085047.005.5018.9520.0017.004.00115
Pyramidion65070032.002.5011.006.2516.972.75200
Galleon800140030.022.108.025.0617.012.25320
Spire40075025.993.0011.9915.0217.003.75150
Mobula60070028.004.2514.023.517.017.5120


The junker has high armor, low health, good mobility, poor speed, a large balloon, and lots of guns.

Out of all the ships, the junker has the smallest 'dead zone' with one of the best capabilities of getting enemies out of the dead zone and into it's gun arcs. It has some of the best gun arcs as well, easily getting two guns on the same target, with a fairly decent overlap for a trifecta (three guns on the same target).


On top of this, it has possibly the most difficult hull to hit, with the second most armor. Armor plays a much bigger role in the game than hull health (in most situations). Generally speaking if you can break the armor on the ship, you can usually kill it in a single clip. This depends on your gun and ammo choice, along with how many people are repairing the hull. Squids and Goldfish can get their armor up very fast because of how little they have, where every other ship takes quite a bit longer.

Then with the large armor comes a large boost of armor from the buff kit. 700 armor rockets up to 910. So it's both hard to hit (slim profile) and very difficult to take down. Especially when you consider the relative ease of the repair locations, and that the most common (and effective) weapon combinations are piercing/explosive.



Put the mobility, attack power, area of cover, and survivability together and you've got one tough ship. The biggest weakness also acts as one it's strengths in a pinch. The large balloon is very easy to hit, but unless you have a balloon popping weapon it will just act as a large shield.

Then for it's biggest weakness (the large balloon), it can be easily repaired by the captain without them having to move away from the helm (they still have to let go of course). The only real balloon popping weapons in the game are the carronades, lumberjack, and to some extent the hades and fire weapons. Which chem spray applied, even the hades seems to have a hard time taking it down. The carronades usually put you in range of the brawling junker side and their piercing/explosive combo will kill you while you try to disable them (you're almost always in arc if your carronade is in arc of their balloon). This leaves the lumberjack, which is actually really good.

Also the ability for the junker to have a long range and close range side, while most other ships need to commit to close or long range. (The pyra and galleon can have separate range sides, but their slow turning makes it harder to switch. A mobula can bring both as well, but is noticeably less robust, mobile, and more difficult to keep repaired.)




But that's my general rant. Most competitive matches bring a junker for these kind of reasons. They're great in the hands of experienced crew, but more difficult to use in pub matches. The movement of the ship makes broadside guns take more experience to hit with, since you have to compensate for your ship movement along with the enemies; where front/back guns don't have to worry about their own ship movement as much (unless the captain likes to make sudden and rapid turns).
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Wundsalz on February 20, 2014, 01:25:59 pm
I only recently came back to the game after a decent while. Back when I played the Junker was pretty bad and an easy kill. Now it seems to be the compete opposite.
I personally always thought the Junker to be among the strongest ships available since I've picked up the game about a year ago.
Regarding 'recent' changes: while the junker didn't receive any sort of direct buffs, weapon balance adjustments (which have been made from 1.3.2 to 1.3.3, I think) worked in favor of the Junker. Cannonades are weaker and way less frequently seen than 3-4 months ago, which makes one of the major disadvantages of the junker, its barn gate balloon, less significant. Also the heavy-clip-laser-gat meta has shifted to spready-greased-gats which makes the slim hull shape of the junker even more useful than it has been before.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: macmacnick on February 20, 2014, 01:49:28 pm
...I'm now going to have my gatling gungineer bring heavy clip whenever I'm fighting against at least one junker.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Crafeksterty on February 20, 2014, 02:57:36 pm
The junker is a very strong ship, but it also has a very big weakness.

The other weakness it has is it being easily disabled. If you do get some hwacha shots, gattling, carro or artemis into him, he will take it pretty hard.

But the biggest weakness is something im going to leave you to figure out.  It is pretty obvious.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: redria on February 20, 2014, 03:27:42 pm
To give you perspective on how open ended that question is... Poorly formatted wall of text incoming!

Current competitive play sees a lot of junkers and pyramidions.
Frequent ships are mobulas and galleons.
Rarely seen are goldfish and spires.
Almost never seen are squids.

A lot of things factor into the choices for competitive ships, including ease of use (for pilot and crew), risk/reward for the gun points, current meta, and teamworking capabilities.

In no particular order (other than junker being last), my opinions...

Pyramidions are one of the easiest ships to set up with a crew, and the logic can be pretty straightforward. It will always be popular unless heavy nerfs go into effect. However, it has a lot of drawbacks in that setting up a trifecta sacrificies almost every advantage the pyramidion has in order to get one extra gun firing: not good. It can be tough to use a pyramidion effectively in long range combat, and it isn't as durable as it sometimes seems. It can work well with enemies, but is not the best ship for providing support fire at range, and tends to be controlling at shorter ranges.
The biggest drawback is that the pyramidion is mostly one-dimensional. You are going to load out for one range, and if you can't get into that desired range, you are kind of helpless.
Slightly above average power, but not OP.

Mobulas are very difficult to crew. Every crew member must be willing to take a gun, and also be aware of when to go for repairs instead of shoot. It requires a lot of balance, but has quickly found its own niche. The raw firepower available makes it an excellent weapons platform, and it can be loaded out to join its ally in a close-range set-up, or a sniper build. The big drawback is its maneuverability and seeming fragility.
It is slow to move forwards or backwards, and slow to turn. It has excellent vertical movement, but this can fall short of saving you in tight situations. It theoretically isn't as squishy as it seems, but it is very light, and so can be pushed around very easily, making it easy to push it into positions it does not want to be in. Generally mobulas are built with a single range in mind. It can outfit to fight at multiple ranges, but is most effective concentrating firepower at a single range. The best counter is to not be in that range.
Above average power, but balanced by the absurd difficulty of use.

Galleons are tough, but not particularly maneuverable. Combine this with the poor turning arcs of the heavy weapons, and you have a ship with very large blindspots and a very big hitbox. Galleons make excellent support ships, and can be excellent killers, but are mostly reactive ships. Since you have to turn away from an enemy to shoot, you lose control over the engage distance. Because of this, your gunners need to be accurate with all gun emplacements when in arc, otherwise your enemy will quickly change the engagement distance and put you at a disadvantage. If your gunners are accurate, you can demolish foes simply through brute firepower.
The high amount of health galleons have also makes it easier for them to tank while their ally comes to help. This is a team oriented ship, that needs to support and be supported. Again, your crew needs to know and understand their role. Good gunners help a lot.
Big disadvantage currently is that a lot of ships are running gun disabling builds (artemis fire destroying guns) which takes out your heavy guns before you get to fire them. This alone makes the galleon a little weaker than it used to be, but not much so.
Slightly under average power just due to the meta, but still a very good ship with teamwork.

Goldfish are almost exclusively support ships currently. One weapon alone, even a heavy weapon, is not going to be a killer. This combined with e pilot requirements to get the goldfish to use the sideguns make the fish very difficult to fly and kill quickly with. It can work well at disabling and supporting, but it is currently plagued with disabling spam. Artemis/mercury guns can easily destroy that front heavy gun: the one best the the goldfish has going for it. Once that gun is down, the goldfish is almost helpless.
That said, working in tandem with an ally, it has good durability, is pretty maneuverable, and can lay in precisely the type of damage that their ally wants to mesh with their ally's build.
Overall, underpowered at the moment, and probably in need of a little bit of thinking about what is causing this. The heavy gun is a little too susceptible to being disabled, and once it goes down, the goldfish is severely weak for the duration of the long rebuild time.

Spires suffer from the same heavy gun disabling as the goldfish, but are also as brittle as... something very brittle. Their gun emplacements allow for very high quantities of damage, with the heavy weapon in arc with multiple light guns. Spires are very high risk-high reward. Failing to kill an enemy at the right moment usually ends with you being destroyed very very quickly. You don't have the durability of other ships, so you need to either disable or kill enemy ships before they have a chance to kill you.
Working with an ally well, spires can lay in extremely good fire. Good gunners and good piloting makes spires, but since they are unforgiving it is very easy to slip up and be taken out quickly, leaving your ally vulnerable.
Probably slightly underpowered due to the current state of heavy gun disabling, but sitting in a pretty good place in the game.

Squids are... well, squids. I'm not sure where squids fall right now. Make them faster, and even good pilots won't be able to fight against them. They will be able to easily acquire blind spots and lock down opponents far too easily. Leave them as is, and noone will take them competitively because they are difficult to get in the best position, and are extremely unforgiving of slight mistakes. I really don't have an answer as to where squids stand right now. They seem to be support ships, but can also run as quick attack ships.

Junkers... The actual interest here. I listed out the other ships just to give you a feel for how I see the playing field, so you understand my view on junkers as is.
Junkers are perhaps the most versatile of ships. With 5 gun placements, it is tied with mobulas for 2nd most guns, just behind the galleon. It turns faster than the mobula or galleon, and accelerates better. It has better vertical movement than the galleon.
Additionally, your guns are not all pointing in approximately the same direction. This means that unlike the mobula, whose strength is firing all of its guns at once, the junker is perfectly suited to use ~half of its guns at once. The sides are balance, with equal potential for damage off of either side, allowing the pilot to choose guns for each side without having to favor one side, or make any particular choice between long or short range. It is blindingly easy to set up a junker to have a close and short range side, each with 2 guns in arc at once. The 5th gun on front is a bonus for your playstyle, to match your preference.
The hull is strong and very thin: hard to hit, and pretty durable when you hit it.
When under enemies, the balloon acts as a very large shield from the normal piercing attacks that are used for quick kills in the meta.
The biggest weakness is that unlike the strong forward-facing ships, the junker is best when turned at an angle, meaning you lose a little bit of control over engage distance. You have to do your best to hold an enemy at the ideal range, but you don't have full control. Additionally, your balloon, while capable of providing protection, is a large juicy target. If your balloon goes down, no ship offers a larger, easier, weaker hull hitbox. Losing your balloon in a junker is just about the worst thing possible, as you lose positioning and open yourself to significant real damage.
While the junker offers the strong versatility of having close and long range sides balanced on one ship, it has several other flaws. It tends to run a supportive role, as it can't close with the enemy like the forward facing ships. This means that it requires more deft control and teamwork to balance with your ally and make sure your fire supports one another. All the components are squished together. Burst rounds on explosive weapons will damage most components on the ship. The top speed is not as high as most other ships. The coordination needed from the crew is higher, since there are no simple layouts for who takes care of what.
Overall, I would qualify the junker as slightly above average in power, due to the versatility of use. This is not to say it is the strongest ship. Muse has done an excellent job of balancing, and every build has a counter. The junker is just better capable of handling different situations than other ships seem to be.


TL;DR: Junkers are versatile, with easy setup for short and long range sides, but the game is fairly well balanced, and while the junker is currently strong, it does not qualify as overpowered.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on February 20, 2014, 04:10:28 pm
What's this crap about large baloon? Only ship dhat soes not have a large baloon is squid.

Junker is by far tankiest ship in the game (yes it has low permahull, but it doesen't hatter, becouse you won't kill their armor before they kill your armor before you kill theirs). Unless you need to ram or want to chase down enemies, it's better in EVERY way than Pyramidion.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: redria on February 20, 2014, 04:18:16 pm
What's this crap about large baloon? Only ship dhat soes not have a large baloon is squid.

Junker is by far tankiest ship in the game (yes it has low permahull, but it doesen't hatter, becouse you won't kill their armor before they kill your armor before you kill theirs). Unless you need to ram or want to chase down enemies, it's better in EVERY way than Pyramidion.

A solid pyramidion ram towards the top half of a junker's balloon along with a little bit of shooting from your gunners will destroy a junkers balloon and send it flying towards the ground. Even if they bring drogue chute, you hit the top of their balloon and should bump up over them. Pyramidion has better top speed and can stay over top the junker pretty easily and goomba stomp the junker into the ground by sitting on (and destroying) the balloon repeatedly.

Pyramidions are far better at controlling the engagement range than a junker, and if the pilot takes advantage of this, the pyramidion can make life very difficult for a junker.

Use any sort of balloon popping weapon in the middle of a pyramidion charge and take out their balloon before you ram, and they will disintegrate on your nose.

Junkers have advantages, but by no means are they preferable over pyramidions in every way. Not by a very long shot.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 20, 2014, 04:41:44 pm
I fly Junkers. I flew them when they were considered bad (they were only bad objectively, not in my heart!) and I fly them now. I fly them competitively and my team, The Mandarins, is among the best Junker based teams currently in the game. I just want to get that out of the way.

Now I don't want to let everyone know how to beat us. However, I would like to stress there are many tactics, counters, and strategies that we know are extremely effective against us. Some we feel will render us even to the enemy team, and some that would put us at disadvantage. We're slow, our balloon is completely exposed, losing only one component to a burst Artemis is rare and having even just one component up after a good Hwacha is miraculous. Yeah we got the armor but our perma hull is laughably low. How low? 200 vanilla Gatling bullets low. 26 Flares low. 4 Mortar shots low.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: redria on February 20, 2014, 04:51:44 pm
26 Flares low
....... I want. I don't know how, but I want.

3v3, double gat pyra and 2 all flare mobulas. Shred the hull, then open up with 20 charged ammo flares?

In seriousness, the mandarins are very very good at using the strengths of the junkers combined to work together. I will support the best junker based team claim. That said it is very possible to take them out. Not necessarily easy, but possible. Junkers just force you to be aware of 2 different ranges on one ship. Only the galleon is comparable, and galleons have huge blindspots you can sit in instead of worrying about which side you are on. Junkers aren't OP. Just unique.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 20, 2014, 04:58:43 pm
Charged buff flares would bring down the needed number to 18 so get two mobulas one with 5 flares and one with 4 flares and a Gatling. Use the Gatling to shred armor after preloading and prebuffing the 9 flares and then let them rip.

Totally viable.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Frogger on February 20, 2014, 06:53:09 pm
lol
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Anchorshag on February 20, 2014, 07:04:44 pm
Thanks for the replies guys, especially the damage table and stuff. Very helpful!
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Thomas on February 20, 2014, 09:26:38 pm
I think the 'large balloon' is mostly because it does have a large balloon compared to it's hull. Most other ships have balloons that are relatively sized to their hull. The squid hull and balloon are about the same, and so is the galleon and goldfish, the mobula. The only ships with small balloons compared to the hull (in my opinion) are the spire and pyramidion.



The problem with getting close to a junker to goomba it, is that you have to get close a junker. There's almost no safe spots to approach from, and the junker has some of the most open views of any ship (pyra, goldfish, galleon, squid, mobula all have stuff blocking a lot of their view. The spire has a pretty open view, unless you want to look backwards.)

Then you have to get at their balloon height. If you're on a pyra, they rise faster than you do, so you're more likely to their hull, making them rotate as you casually shoot past them. Being a junker, they still have guns on you, while your front guns are facing the wrong way.



Ideally you could take advantage of the junkers components, since their guns are quite close on the sides, and you should be able to take out the turning engines easily. Taking out the turning engines also means that at least one person has to abandon their post to go fix them. But then it just turns into a sniping match, and whoever has better accuracy wins. You could bring a ship with heavy guns, but those are much easier for a sniping ship to take out. Sticking with light guns, you'd want at least 3 to match their firepower, and this means junker, pyra, or mobula (or spire I suppose). If you choose a pyra you have a hard time going with both close and long range loadouts, especially if you want the triple long range. This means you have to tilt your ship at an odd angle and make a bigger target. Being mostly hull, the pyra is at a huge disadvantage in piercing/explosive fights. The mobula can also bring close and long range loadouts like the junker, but you only have a frontal direction, if they sneak up on you, it's over. Both the mobula and junker have hull and balloon components very close, and in a long range fight, both are going to take damage. This makes the engineers on the mobula more or less abandon their gun spots to try and survive. Then of course if you choose a junker, you're a junker.



So how do you kill a junker? Especially one with a high functioning crew (buffs, chem spray, awareness, accuracy, teamwork).

Depending on the map, you might be able to get away with some lumberjacks. Assuming you can break their balloon more than they can break your guns. Get them low enough, and it's harder for them to take out your guns. Of course the longer the range, the bigger the height difference has to be. I wouldn't recommend a close range carronde. The small downward angle on that gun usually means that your ship is in firing arc of their close range guns.

Another option might be to give up on the explosive weapon and double up on the piercing. A buffed junker hull has a crazy amount of armor, but a low amount of HP. Ideally you might be able to just power it down with gatling bullets alone, and having two gats also lets you disable their guns and engines. It's a bit of a slow grind, but it shouldn't take more than a couple clips each. Greased or charged and the dps goes up too.

Then there's pure hades. That gun itself is pretty wicked, but it doesn't matter if it hits hull or balloon. Sure it won't be starting fires, but it still packs a punch and can take down either/both.



Of course these are specifically for junkers, which is kind of cheating (although a double hades will mess anyones day up); as you can counter most other ships through positioning alone, without having to bring a special loadout just for them.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on February 20, 2014, 10:32:31 pm
Bring a mobula, spire or a junker and you don't need to sacrifice an explosive weapon for double piercing :P
it takes under 1 clip of gatling fire to strip junker's hull if you have double gatling. It can take 4 gatling clips to do the same on a single gatling gun.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Urz on February 21, 2014, 12:52:21 am
(http://i.imgur.com/lodhRRC.png)
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Captain Smollett on February 21, 2014, 01:22:53 am
Don't think Goldie is quite in Derp tier, but probably in low - mid tier depending on the level of players (I think you just wanted to make a Derp Tier).
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: macmacnick on February 21, 2014, 01:38:07 am
...Goldie is devastating when in competitive with a HFlak and Lochnagar, along with a ship bringing the piercing.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on February 21, 2014, 01:41:34 am
Ya know seeing the numbers and how close the Junker is to Galleon armor level...it just makes me kinda wonder what the heck? If anything the Pyra should be closer to Galleon level. The Junker doesn't really have any visible armor, its just a sliver of hull.

I wouldn't call it OP but I certainly think the numbers should at least be reversed.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Urz on February 21, 2014, 01:43:56 am
Don't think Goldie is quite in Derp tier, but probably in low - mid tier depending on the level of players (I think you just wanted to make a Derp Tier).
The goldfish has marginally more armour than the squid with a much larger hitbox and less maneuverability. It relies on a single heavy weapon in a metagame full of artemis and mercury field guns. Two of the four available heavy weapons are more or less unusable on the ship. It's a high risk vessel with basically no reward.

...Goldie is devastating when in competitive with a HFlak and Lochnagar, along with a ship bringing the piercing.
We have yet to see anything like that be remotely successful in competitive play.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: GreyTea on February 21, 2014, 01:47:52 am
That mobula pic got me laughing,

But i think this thread has unintentionally brought up a deep conversation rumbling lately on ships and strengths, myself urz spudnick and ramjam had a very long conversation the other day on all of the ships and shared the opinion the junker needs a Nerf to the turning speed because like urz excellent tier system diagram shows junker is indeed god tier atm,

It can counter almost every build and boasts an impressive arsenal and just versatile in every sense, it is protected from both sides, and insane turning speed with buffed engines and claw and a semi organised crew can devastate, pyra charges hmm though it sounds effective you can just turn out of the way because people will aim for the middle so just kero forward or back and turn out of the way i have seen the likes of puppyfur and sammy do it plenty of times so charging does not work, the mobula i would say is a good counter in a sniping battle however you can just move forward with a trifector going toe to toe then when close or look gat mortar side bye bye,

However at the highest level of play the junker falls short to a galleon with lumber flak and lumber hwatcha extreme long range it is weak but it has such a low profile good luck getting a flak shot at 1200m plus in competitive play before them artimus or merc start raining down on you, that being said the balloon is the spot to aim for on a junker i feel that is its weakness and of course other junkers are the counter and it comes down to pilot and crew skill. so a lumber or a carronade then sit above them it is just getting i that range without being disabled or taking so much damage the ally kills you before you finish one target,
 
I honestly do not think there is any situation not to take a junker it really can do anything, and i hate the junker because i fly squids and it is a rage machine, staying in the blind spot long enough.. but that is for another thread


TL:DR Agreed needs a nerf, lower armor and turning speed,
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: macmacnick on February 21, 2014, 01:51:15 am
...It was in one sunday rumble.
the ships "Jesus take the wheel" (piercing pyramidion) and "disney films" (kill fish) managed to Defeat cake (SAC Vs CAKE) in canyons, during december (around the 20th-30th), and we were running galleons.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Urz on February 21, 2014, 02:08:37 am
...It was in one sunday rumble.
the ships "Jesus take the wheel" (piercing pyramidion) and "disney films" (kill fish) managed to Defeat cake (SAC Vs CAKE) in canyons, during december (around the 20th-30th), and we were running galleons.
This is the game you are referring to (from January 26th Rumble):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCoPQcKGhPI&list=PLXy5l_wXGi3g609ri39CpzesqqHSO4DDQ#t=718

Sacrilege switches to double hades Pyramidion and heavy flak Goldfish after decidedly winning the first game with double Pyramidion (Hades/Artemis and Hades/Banshee). That match was certainly won by a large discrepancy in strength of play, and despite their build choice in the second game rather than as a result of it.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Piemanlives on February 21, 2014, 03:16:56 am
Also keep in mind SAC is a very well developed team, but that is another discussion entirely.

A junker is, quite personally, my favorite ship in the game. However many of the points raised against it are completely valid in one way or another. Thing is, the Junker is a brawler in every sense of the word sure it can be used at long range but the high turning speed is indicative of a brawler, why? Because of its ability to keep guns on target during a duel, at long range, lest it's sanding still, it has a tendency to over compensate sometimes. Going up against one in brawler is fairly suicidal, especially against a pilot who knows what they're doing and a crew who knows their stuff.

It can counter almost every build and boasts an impressive arsenal and just versatile in every sense, it is protected from both sides, and insane turning speed with buffed engines and claw and a semi organised crew can devastate...

The Junker is a very versatile ship, is has 5 light guns spread in a very optimal pattern, you can load a junker with just about any loadout you can think of (Excluding medium weapons). Can it counter every build? The possibility is there, load up cannonades and you'll be able to bring down another junker in a brawl, sit above a galleon laughing as it falls to earth, using superior mobility circle around a pyra.

I honestly do not think there is any situation not to take a junker it really can do anything, and I hate the junker because I fly squids and it is a rage machine, staying in the blind spot long enough..

It may be a jack-of-all trades but if your flying a squid you really need to know how to fly against a junker, that big balloon of its? If you play your cards right it will obscure most gun arcs besides a Hades and possibly a mortar, but if you are so close the Hades will do bare minimum, nothing at all, and the mortar isn't very good against armor either (at least last I checked). You shouldn't need to "Stay in the blind spot long enough" because that's not the purpose of the squid, it's a disabler, cause extreme havoc and get out, or if you can handle it, guerrilla them to death, you shouldn't be staying in the same place for very long. A squid is, much more maneuverable, has better turning speed and acceleration, has a higher speed then the Junker, and it's not built for prolonged engagements, at least ones where you're constantly under fire, if you duke and dive well enough you should be able to hold your own, if you know the weaknesses of its guns you should be able to formulate an approach that should get you in and out relatively unscathed, it may be easier said then done but as pilot these are things we all need to keep in mind, I've flown every ship in the game enough that I can counter them at the best of times, doesn't mean I'm good at it, not by a long shot, I'm terrible at this game, the point is, I believe you are over exaggerating the situation a bit.

(People who know me have probably figured I am a fan of wall of texts)
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Omniraptor on February 21, 2014, 04:07:53 am
A squid is pretty equal with a junker in terms of maneuverability. Squids are only semi-good against clumsy ships such as galleon, mobula or pyramidion, and then only if you can close in on them unseen. All the maneuverable ships (junker, goldfish, spire) will rip a squid apart.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Coldcurse on February 21, 2014, 04:11:14 am
Coldcurse's list:

S-tier:
Pyramydion/Galleon

High Tier:
Junker/Goldfish

Lower but still lethal tier:
Squid/Pyra/Mobula


The list itself depends on what build the captains are choosing.
Each ship has it's own ways of fighting, calling the goldfish a derpship is not really nice since it's the best kind of assist ship to disable ships.

Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Skrimskraw on February 21, 2014, 06:34:26 am
every match is based on a few things.

the map: certain maps favors certain ships.
the setup: the setup your team runs with, and how effective you are on using it. some setups doesnt work well together.
the mindgame: at some point you hit higher competitive play, and it is here that the mindgame comes into play. Knowing what your oppenent is going to do by observing his flying style, tactics and positioning. These things you need to base your counter around.

Lets say we are playing vs the ducks who are notorious known for their 2 junker setup.
what do we know about their build? junkers have a high armor rating, but will die very quickly from well played focus fire. The ducks use hades cannons and artemis to circle and disable their opponent, so getting caught between their ships are bad news.

They tend to fly at medium altitude, but they will change altitude when your team does. They also fly together at all times, and does not split up.

How do we counter this then?
in open maps a galleon with immense focus fire and very experienced gunners might be able to take down the junkers and tank some damage. - but this setup leaves your team very stationary and easy to go around.

No matter how to look at this the junker is in the top tier of ships at the moment, due to its strong endurance and damage capabilities.
However the junker has some severe weakspots.

if you break the junkers turning engines he is not going to move for some time, this means pulling one of his engineers from shooting to the back engine to rebuild it.

Stay mobile and keep using the terrain, junkers have a tendency to use a medium and a short range side. When you end up in the double medium range side of 2 junkers you will go down very quickly. Using the terrain to block shots or stay in hiding is very important.

timing the perfect engagement is what will define who takes the lead. If you rush straight on you are most likely going to die before you were able to get a kill.
The junkers using artemis have a disadvantage in that they shoot down, if you pop hydrogen on a goldfish or pyramidion you will be able to shorten the distance before they spot you or are able to counter your engagement.

Here is my favorite. junker pilots love to focus on three players using guns, this can also be the weakness as there are no engineers on the vital component. a quick focus fire + ram will deal a large portion of damage that might kill the junker outright.
- a thing I have seen vs junkers is that moonshine ram from a pyramidion to the junker balloon, instantly kills the junkers balloon and pushes him away from you actually exposing his engines to your guns.

a last thing about junkers. they are not agressive ships, sure you can play them as such, but they dont work well with rushing and front facing ships. Goldfish, pyramidion, mobula and spires all have guns pointing forward which means they dont need to turn to have their full potential.
Using a junker with any of the above mentioned ship can leave a big disadvantage to the team using it. Why? because when a goldfish or pyramidion especially needs to move forward, they are weak if their ally does not have strong front facing guns that can support them. this means that the junker in order to move forward has to stop using his trifecta ability. (perfect time to start an engagement)

feel free to disagree with me :)
But I hope this will help anyone in looking at a larger picture of ships and their "Overpowered´ness"2
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: GreyTea on February 21, 2014, 06:47:27 am
I honestly do not think there is any situation not to take a junker it really can do anything, and I hate the junker because I fly squids and it is a rage machine, staying in the blind spot long enough..

"Stay in the blind spot long enough" because that's not the purpose of the squid, it's a disabler,


This is the issue it is forced into a disable role because you can not brawl in a squid against a junker with gat mortar like you can against mobula galleon spire goldfish

i honestly think most pyra vs squids that are both kill ships is a good 1vs1 ducking diviing claw hydrogen ect trying to get on the pyra's Right and in the hugh blind spot while they are trying to bring left or front guns to bare it is almost designed in mind to kill pyras with the right side guns and pyras right blind spot,

However the junker is on a diffrent level there is only one blind spot to approach from is the rear and claw buffed engines on a junker will never let you stay there for more than what 2-3 seconds before you are taking damage , so you have to go disabler which is why i made the squid change thread ^^.. granted i am not the best pilot but it seems the junker is a brick wall with only one way to win and that is like you said carronade drop carronade drop and overwhelm but how long does that take, why you are doing this you are in the open to the ally and Fire is so easy countered with heatsink chem and that means you are just a carronade so drougchute and that is basicly the squid fully countered.



Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: ramjamslam on February 21, 2014, 07:42:26 am
(People who know me have probably figured I am a fan of wall of texts)

I'm sorry, Skrimskraw has you outclassed this time (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3551.msg62550.html#msg62550) xD
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on February 21, 2014, 07:46:32 am
Ya know instead of talking about nerfing the Junker...lets discuss buffing the other ships to counter. I've just about had it. People cry nerf...Muse nerfs...the game just gets more and more dull. I don't want this game to turn into flying turrets. If it gets that far, might as well market it to retirement homes because they are the only people that will find it fun anymore cause then it won't be GOIO, it'll be a big 3D version of Battleship which they'll love to play between Bingo sessions.

Lets do something about the Junker by giving the Pyra it's turn rate back, giving the squid it's mobility back, and giving the other ships whatever touch ups they need to help them compensate for a slow moving fast turn rate ship that has the best gun arcs in the game.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Thomas on February 21, 2014, 08:50:33 am
I'm actually a little surprised the pyra shows up that high. Essentially it's covered in hull, making it the easiest ship to take out with piercing/explosive combo.

But back on the junker, it doesn't make that much balance sense for a ship to have that high of armor and mobility combined with a difficult to hit hull and a large area of cover for it's guns.


Toss in a buff hammer and things get more extreme. Since they're all % based, the higher the base stat, the bigger the boost. The junker has the second best armor, acceleration, turn speed, turn acceleration, and the best vertical speed.


Certain other ships do need a bit of a boost, but it's easier to deal with one ship at a time than try to tweak the remaining ships and risk things getting more out of balance.



Although, since we're on the topic of ship balancing, the goldfish probably needs the most love. It's not used in competitive play too much (although I think a lumberfish might work well against a junker maybe), and it's not used very effectively in newer matches either. It does see a fair amount of effectiveness in some moderately experienced pub matches, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 21, 2014, 10:15:28 am
Considering the range between vertical speed is .12 M/s, the argument of great vertical speed seems irrelevant. The slowest speed is 99.47% that of the highest. Vertical acceleration tells the real story and the Junker has the third lowest acceleration. Also you know why the Junker has so much armor? Because it moves .02 m/s faster than the spire and has two thirds the perma hull. Sense it is a side engager it also can't as effectively charge straight meaning that not only does it have to move slowly at an enemy, it then has to turn.

I'm going to have to agree slighty with Gilder, ships like Goldfishes and Squids need some sort of love (pyra does not need turn rate but could use a bit more armor instead, I like it being a battering ram)
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on February 21, 2014, 10:27:57 am
The speed a junker can turn at with buffed engines and/or claw is trolly at best, which is my largest issue with them. Given the gun placements it has, it shouldn't be able to flop broadsides that fast.

Now if that's a claw issue, a buff issue, or a junker turn rate issue is a matter of itself.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Thomas on February 21, 2014, 12:02:58 pm
Also you know why the Junker has so much armor? Because it moves .02 m/s faster than the spire and has two thirds the perma hull. Sense it is a side engager it also can't as effectively charge straight meaning that not only does it have to move slowly at an enemy, it then has to turn.

Armor plays a much bigger role than perma hull health. Armor can be buffed and repaired, while the hull HP cannot. Once the armor does break, most ships can be taken out in a single clip of explosive weapons. Ideally it would be a mortar or heavy flak, but with the right ammo it can also be the light flak.

Ships with low armor (essentially the squid and to a lesser extent the goldfish) rely on the low armor to rebuild it faster, and have more HP to soak up the damage that slips through. And you can see how well that works for them. (not very well)


Even though it moves marginally slower than the majority of ships (it is the second slowest top speed ship) it also has the second highest acceleration. The junker has minimal problems charging and chasing, as it does have a front gun and can chase off center to get the side guns going.

(http://gunsoficarus.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/junker1.jpg)

And that's just reference for those who forget just how slim the hull is (which I think is the main reason it doesn't need all that armor). I'd bring up the other ship pictures, but they're not all on the same scale.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 21, 2014, 01:01:46 pm
Squids and Goldies sucking has nothing to do with whether the Junker is too good. In competive play we see a lot of Junkers but we see an equal number of Galleons and even more pyras. Are any teams other than Mandarins flying consistent double junker?
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on February 21, 2014, 01:07:35 pm
Quote
Are any teams other than Mandarins flying consistent double junker?

Why would that matter? I haven't read all the posts here but that shouldn't have much weight on if it is unbalanced or not.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Imagine on February 21, 2014, 01:13:08 pm
A ship is only as good as the crew that flies it.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Sammy B. T. on February 21, 2014, 01:16:59 pm
Quote
Are any teams other than Mandarins flying consistent double junker?

Why would that matter? I haven't read all the posts here but that shouldn't have much weight on if it is unbalanced or not.

If something is amazingly objectively over powered then you would expect the majority of the comp scene to be using it.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Spud Nick on February 21, 2014, 03:10:57 pm
This thread is discussing junkers in general. I think we can all agree that The Admiral Quackbar and the Dancing Feather are over powered.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on February 21, 2014, 03:31:40 pm
Quote
Are any teams other than Mandarins flying consistent double junker?

Why would that matter? I haven't read all the posts here but that shouldn't have much weight on if it is unbalanced or not.

If something is amazingly objectively over powered then you would expect the majority of the comp scene to be using it.

Take note of the Fjords tournament, and how many heavy flaks we got to second place with.

Its not the best of ways to tell if something needs changing by only looking at competitions. All this thread is really doing is getting opinions, and maybe it'll lead to changes in the dev app to see what's up.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on February 21, 2014, 09:35:50 pm
Pyras got their ramming ability nerfed. Yeah I'm all for them being a ram boat if that is what people want but when they get nerfs to prevent ramming from being as effective then it needs some turn rate back. This was tested and it was fantastic. Just a half degree made the nerf much more bare able. It didn't make the pyra op again and it would help it with engaging Junkers again.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on February 21, 2014, 10:36:16 pm
If anything, ramming a junker shouldn't be like ramming a squid where they just fly all over the place and into the gun arcs and out yours.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: The Djinn on February 23, 2014, 02:38:43 pm
My only real issue with the junker is extreme coverage of the gun arcs (2+ guns on a target in most positions) combined with an incredible ability to turn to cover any blind spots that a target might try to take advantage of.

I think makes it unique amongst ships: all other ships have at least one angle of approach that renders the ship relatively incapable of retaliation and requires significant maneuvering on the part of the defending ship to regain solid gun arcs. The Junker, meanwhile, remains a fairly durable ship with a slim hull profile and a ton of turning maneuverability sufficient to constantly present strong gun angles against any opponent.

If I saw any Junker changes, I'd like to see something to increase the area of vulnerability of the ship. Whether this means spinning gun angles towards the fore of the ship to create a wider aft blindspot, reducing the turning acceleration to require more proactive movement rather than reactive movement, or even something as (admittedly) crazy and potentially balance-ruining as running some Dev App tests where the Junker has only a single gun on the starboard side just to see what happens.

In short, I think any change to the Junker should be directed at opening up its vulnerabilities and making it harder to keep 2+ guns on a target. Currently a well-played Junker is almost impossible to approach except from above and, with a height cap, it's hard to always be able to do that. I'd like to see more options for denying a Junker it's strongest gun angles.

'course, I'm still not convinced the ship needs a change...
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: IvKir on February 24, 2014, 02:48:05 am
Okey... there is a biiiig weak spot on junker - it's balloon. Double or heavy carronade ship can kill junker. I met carronade\flame squid, that was a totally pain in mah behind, and without ally, i'll end up dead. And me and my crew not the weakest players.

But i think yeah - maybe it's a good idea to a decrease front gun ark, thus making trifecta nearly impossible.
About slim hull - it's not a big problem. Good gunner and heavy rounds on gatling will make a short work of armor and health of this ship.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: macmacnick on February 24, 2014, 02:51:54 am
Oh goody, the Cakeamidion is an effective counter... Time for some Kobayashi Mrau Situations!
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Thomas on February 24, 2014, 07:57:56 am
Although the junker has one of the easiest balloons to hit, it's also one of the easiest balloons to get to. One of the bonuses of the standard junker player positions (helm, top deck by the side guns, front gun and hull, and below deck) is that there's a good amount of redundancy. In most ships, everyone tends to cover something different. But on the junker, you can double up on some of the core components, in particular the balloon and hull. The pilot and top engi can get the balloon, while the pilot doesn't even have to move from the helm; while the front engi and top engi can also get the hull. In an emergency, you can also get the gunner out from the bottom deck to help with the hull.


The other issue with using carronades against the junker balloon is that those guns have a small downward arc. If you're not right on the balloon, the junker will still be able to hit you with it's guns (typically the hades, or the gat/mortar). If you're right on the balloon, you have some safety, unless you're in something like a pyramidion. The top guns are near the top of the ship, which means you have to leave a meaty part of your ship in their gun arcs if you want to keep that balloon in your sights.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: HamsterIV on February 24, 2014, 02:53:10 pm
The other weakness of the junker is that it can not give chase very well. One light gun is not a threat to a ship kiting a junker. At the forward limit of artemis trifecta I think a pyra can out out back peddle a charging junker.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on February 24, 2014, 03:02:17 pm
You'll be getting shot by his long side far before you're out of range of it.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: HamsterIV on February 24, 2014, 04:35:49 pm
Not if you have 2x merc front on dunes.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Anchorshag on February 24, 2014, 06:36:08 pm
Not if you have 2x merc front on dunes.

Then you just back up into a friggin dust cloud.
Title: Re: Junker OP?
Post by: Piemanlives on February 25, 2014, 01:42:46 am
The front gun slot has only really been an issue with the Artemis in my experience, while it's been a while since I piloted (I've been relegated to engineer duties recently) most other guns are either impossible to get a trifecta (Hades, Howitzer etc.) or you have to work at it to land one.