Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: RearAdmiralZill on February 16, 2014, 04:52:25 pm
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So after hearing a few chats about goldfish, and honest thought, I feel in the current state of the game, the goldfish needs something to make it more competitive. One heavy gun these days, while strong by its own right, just won't cut it in most situations.
My proposed change? Side gun arcs. And I'm pretty sure this isn't a new idea, but hear me out.
So, all ships with heavy guns also have either more heavy guns or a light gun to support it, minus the goldie. Now, at the same time we don't want to make the goldfish a faster Spire. That would just overshadow it. This leads to two ideas for the arcs.
1. Tilt both of the side gun arcs forward x degrees (testing will be needed). This lets people get overlap of one light and heavy gun, or possibly two at the cost of repairs.
2. Tilt one gun forward (preferably on the hull side but that's up to testing) and one gun back. Hear me out. This way, you can only get the overlap with one light gun, which would still help immensely for the goldie, and now you get somewhat of a rear gun for when you try to disengage, since the goldfish does have the speed to escape engagements.
I personally like 2 better just because of the options it provides, while not stepping on the Spire's hold of glass cannon. That's up to debate, as is just doing nothing. The overlap doesnt have to be easy either. Maybe it'll require an angle to get the proper arc vs "just point the side gun forward and troll forth." Up to testing.
In the end, I just want to get the goldie living up to its book description in-game.
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I don't think the ship should have anyway of getting all 3 guns on target however for it to still feel like a goldfish to me both side guns would be turned the same.
Perhaps just a little bit forward on each side in order to make a bifecta (or make less swiveling necessary)
I still think it's worth looking into shortening the rebuild times of heavy weapons a tad since currently that's the largest limiting factor on the goldfish in my opinion.
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Perhaps just a little bit forward on each side in order to make a bifecta (or make less swiveling necessary)
Pretty much my thought. All three shouldn't be allowed. Forgive me for not elaborating.
I still think it's worth looking into shortening the rebuild times of heavy weapons a tad since currently that's the largest limiting factor on the goldfish in my opinion.
Doing so would also lower their health (since they are related if i remember correctly). It sounds like a bandaid fix. Regardless, the one gun going down completely takes out a goldfish's damage, and if its being focused, rebuilding it a little faster wont solve that in my mind.
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As for the gun turns, that's fair. I always like unique styles of flight, and if only one gun was forward, then we could play with the arc much more than if both went forward. I was mostly avoiding the situation where it would be meta to always have two of the same gun on the sides.
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From Recent events i think the goldfish could be making a come back honestly, we seen BFS and Sac both use the goldfish to really nice effect, hwatcha fish is a good counter to galleons and junkers and it can take a fair amount of damage, when flew right with the versatility of staying out of the arcs.
flak fish in particular is the one making a comeback as a good kill ship to say a duel hades pyra in the case of both sac and bfs. i feel the lumber fish is slightly under powered and where you're idea of getting a 2nd gun in arc would be extremely useful,
Also keep in mind how over powering it could become hwatcha fish with say a flamer side in the same arc, for full disable or a gat with greased hwatcha charged for a one volley kill if buffed i believe, this all being said the idea is very appealing because a good merc/artimus shot or one wrong turn and you are effectively dead in the water with only 1 light gun to defend or get the kill, so perhaps in stead of a change in turning arc a buff to the maneuverability to the ship as a whole so swivel of the guns is easyer and quicker?
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I dont think so really. Just changing arcs is always not a good way of balancing ships. The spire got a arc change because its design was glass cannon. The goldfish does not have that design.
The goldfish has side guns to assisst with other type of damage. For example, disable galleon or some other with with hwacha, aid with gattling for your ally to kill.
In a competetive standards, yeah the goldfish does not have the killing power, because its not seppoused to. Buff the goldfish, all of a sudden, the squid will need a similar buff because they are both similar ships in terms of loadout.
In competetive standards (once again) The goldfish is a good support ship and it succeeds on that. Quick and agile, very tanky. Can escape etc etc. while his offencive mostly enhances his partners offence. To make something competetive, is not to make it more killable. It is his ability to be whatever you want it to be.
If it is more offencive oriented, you just have a very tanky Pre spire buff spire.
In casual standards, its a fun ship that does not requier too much effort to use.
I mean, people always forget about the second ship (or third) that the ship flies with. For example, poeple think Galleon is a bit weak now. Have 2 galleons, all of a sudden, its super strong. 2 Goldfishes arent exactly making goldfish strong, but a goldfish with X can be strong. You really have to account to both Tools < Guns < Ship < Teamate < Game mode
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Doing so would also lower their health (since they are related if i remember correctly).
Repair time can be altered independently of gun health, which is what I did.
If I'm not misinterpreting awkm, changing the rebuild time won't have any effect on health.
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Doing so would also lower their health (since they are related if i remember correctly).
Repair time can be altered independently of gun health, which is what I did.
If I'm not misinterpreting awkm, changing the rebuild time won't have any effect on health.
Then that alters my thoughts on that idea, though itll still never be as fast as light gun's rebuild.
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I mean, people always forget about the second ship (or third) that the ship flies with. For example, poeple think Galleon is a bit weak now. Have 2 galleons, all of a sudden, its super strong. 2 Goldfishes arent exactly making goldfish strong, but a goldfish with X can be strong. You really have to account to both Tools < Guns < Ship < Teamate < Game mode
If you read that thread youll know I've mentioned that already in terms of the Galleon. The galleon has a lot more going for it vs a goldfish though.
My biggest thing is that once that gun is disabled, the goldfish has nothing to do until it gets rebuilt, or they turn to make themselves a large target to get one light gun going. Turning even one gun forward will do the same thing, and lower the repair-ability if both are manned, but give it the versatility we expect from goldfish.
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But the thing about the goldfish is it can always come from places where its guns cannot be disabled. The galleons guns are much more obviously disabled than the Goldfish but it works out because it has many guns and it can tank it out. While goldfish may not be able to tank and fight at the same time, that is why its fast and agile. One of the reasons why its fast and agile is to use its side guns.
The squid, if it has buff on engines and Pheonix claw, It can use all 3 guns.
Gun arcs shouldnt always be about intersecting to be effective with eachother. And that goes with the Goldfish, junker, Mobula.
The junker can do a double gattling and easily switch to a mortar on the front. The mobula can easily switch from Double Merc, to Double whatever else AND STILL have the middle gun be its main one.
But even with this ability, the goldfish is still supportive more than ever. Only one gun can assisst, because the heavy guns are very centered around being one thing.
Now imagine a new heavy gun coming out that does piercing or something of alike, now you can safely turn for a mortar/light flak/artemis for whatever the heavy gun is.
Everytime i talk about goldfish i wanna jump in and play, but i need a teamate i can cooperate with.
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gonna make the goldie the strongest ship in the game possibly
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Oh, come one. One good hwachafish or blenderfish, combined with, let's say an junker or pyro, and with some coordination between ships... it will be an nightmare team, i'm assure you.
Yes, goldfish alone is not so good - but i think someone on forum said, that you should treat ships like classes in Team Fortress, and it's not a bad thing, when one ship is useless all by itself.
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I agree that the goldfish could use a little love atm.
Nerfing the artemis put aside (disable kills goldfishes), tilting the side guns slightly forward might be a good approach.
Currently the fishy flight style the goldie is supposed to be flown with is relatively rarely seen ingame. Personally, especially when flying a carro-fish, I often tend to rather keep my front pointed at my enemy than letting my engineers toy around with our side weapons. That's mostly because carro fishes often chase their enemies and hence would risk to loose the upper hand when it comes to positioning if the enemy isn't chased at full speed, which is following it while directly pointed to it. tilting the guns a bit to the front might encourage pilots to strafe enemies a little bit more than they do at the moment.
I personally don't want to see drastic adjustments like those which have been made for the spire, but a rather minor adjustment like a tilt of 10°. I also think tilting a single side gun would be better than tilting both - to prevent builds like lumber+dual arte or carro + dual banshee trifectas.
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How I feel the current goldfish is at.
(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/133/a/1/goldfish_by_stressedjenny-d3g87za.jpg)
Squished between an artemis barrage and a hard place in terms of viability due to the front guns huge hitbox and long rebuild time, along with the difficult bifecta. Well, the scary Flakfish are coming back, at least in high level play — horrors they are with their Lochnagar rounds and hull-armor-melting ally(allies).
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Just let's not bring back that horror, that was before nerfing heavy carronades... -_-
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I totally support your efforts Zill. Give the Fish 2 forward or semi forward arcs with one more backwards. Or at least enough of an arc where a fish doesn't have to turn as bad to get a gat/shee on.
Flakfish wasn't a horror, it was some of the best fun this game ever had. Just charge on in blasting with twin barrels. Get in close enough so you can see the enemy crew running to the hull in a panic..then boom boom...squish! You got to kill them...it was very gratifying.
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there is no harm in testing this.
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there is no harm in testing this.
And this is my big stick. I really want to test this in dev app to see what can come of it.
I agree that the goldfish could use a little love atm.
Nerfing the artemis put aside (disable kills goldfishes), tilting the side guns slightly forward might be a good approach.
Currently the fishy flight style the goldie is supposed to be flown with is relatively rarely seen ingame. Personally, especially when flying a carro-fish, I often tend to rather keep my front pointed at my enemy than letting my engineers toy around with our side weapons. That's mostly because carro fishes often chase their enemies and hence would risk to loose the upper hand when it comes to positioning if the enemy isn't chased at full speed, which is following it while directly pointed to it. tilting the guns a bit to the front might encourage pilots to strafe enemies a little bit more than they do at the moment.
I personally don't want to see drastic adjustments like those which have been made for the spire, but a rather minor adjustment like a tilt of 10°. I also think tilting a single side gun would be better than tilting both - to prevent builds like lumber+dual arte or carro + dual banshee trifectas.
And this is precisely my mindset with this potential change for the goldie. I do not want overly-easy overlaps. A goldfish on a strafing run would be quite the potent sight. One cant forget that the goldie is a very engie heavy ship. It's real nice having two engies running around not worrying about side guns since half the time they don't have arc anyway. Now you would take one away to do a strafe run and it suddenly gets much more risky. The goldfish's armor is light to be frank (plus the large space between hull and balloon), and I think that will offset the added firepower if they just sit and keep two guns going. Even at long range, they would have to make themselves a larger target to get the bifecta going.
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What about a third light hardpoint, perhaps near the helm facing forward? Hard to access but extremely effective?
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I don't see how turning gun arcs will make the fish more competitive. I think it has more to do with the design of the ship and the lack of heavy weapons in the game. It's a support ship a disabling ship. Not a brawler or sniper.
I do like the idea of faster rebuilds on heavy guns. Maybe reduce the hit box too.
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^ think it may be time to request this for dev app
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I like the idea of tilting the guns forward slightly. Personally I'd like them both tilted forward, because I'm a sucker for symmetry, but I wouldn't start throwing things if it became asymmetrical.
Overall I don't think it will make the goldfish a competitive ship. It's actually a fairly large target with low armor, low damage potential and a poor layout for engineers. Competitive ships tend to be ships with high armor (for the buff) and at least a trifecta (junker, spire, galleon, and to a lesser extent the pyra). Even with better gun angles, it's still lacking in damage and survivability.
Although it will make the ship a lot easier in casual play, especially for newer players. I often see them fail to utilize the main gun with a side gun, often relying on one or the other while ignoring the rest. Tilting them forward would emphasize the potential for overlapping arcs, or at least make the ship need least rotation to transition between them.
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You know that the side guns are not even already Thomas. One is higher than the other.
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I'd definitely favor a slightly asymmetrical angle to the guns as, in the case of a captain or crew without a mic it makes it easy to tell which set of guns is the primary combat set. It also helps counterplay as the Goldfish will have a side which is definitely stronger, allowing opposing ships to stay on the side with the weaker bifecta if their pilot is skilled enough.
If they both face forward I see the potential of a Hwacha/Gatling/Mortar Goldfish being alarmingly effective: Hwacha for the disable, spin *slightly* right and Gatling the hull almost down, pivot back to Hwacha for the hull break and secondary disable, and finish with the Mortar. I'm actually a little concerned at the ease of doing this if both side guns face forward, given the maneuvering advantage the Goldfish has over the Spire, which is the only other ship capable of brining a heavy weapon along with a Gat/Mortar combo.
So my suggestion would be to angle either the port or starboard gun forward somewhere between 25 and 45 degrees.