Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: awkm on February 03, 2014, 10:12:39 am
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Biggest change is the Artemis:
Artemis— Muzzle Speed reduced to 575m/s from 700m/s (Shell Life adjusted to maintain ~1330m range), Project Expansion (where the bullet hitbox expands as it travels) Reduced by 30%, AoE Burst Size Reduced to 2.5m from 3.5m, Yaw Speed decreased to 25 degrees/s from 30 d/s
Otherwise only small changes were made to capture maps in light of spawn changes (matches oftentimes lasted too long).
Refinery—Goals 600 from 650 points, Capture Time: 25s from 30s
Labyrinth—Goals: 525 from 600 points, Capture Time: 20s from 35s
Scrap—Goals: 600 from 800 points, Capture Time: 20s from 25s
Anglean—Goals: 550 from 675 points, Capture Time: 25s from 35s
Flayed—Capture Time: 30s from 40s
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I made a song for this
Skilled artie back
I'm bringing skilled Artie back, yeah
Those other players won't know how to react, yeah
Even with a meter less area of effect, yeah
I'll disable ships back to back
Take em to the bridge
Gunner babe, do you see that reduced muzzle speed
You'll have to learn how to truly lead
Cause you can't hit them any other way
Take em to the chorus
Nerfed a gun
Go ahead we'll run with it
Same damage
Go ahead we'll run with it
Yaw decrease
Go ahead we'll run with it
Skill increase
Go ahead we'll run with it
Show me what you're working with
Go ahead we'll run with it
Disable them ships
Go ahead we'll run with it
Shooter you make me smile
Go ahead we'll run with it
Lock em down child
Go ahead we'll run with it
And get you're artie on
Go ahead we'll run with it
Get you're artie on
Go ahead we'll run with it
Get you're artie on
Go ahead we'll run with it
Get you're artie on
Go ahead we'll run with it
Get you're artie on
Go ahead we'll run with it
Get you're artie on
Go ahead we'll run with it
Get you're artie on
Go ahead we'll run with it
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Sammy!
You and Me, Karaoke friday...
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Nerf Sammy
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Let's keep the thread on topic please.
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I took that bit about "bullet hitbox expanding" to mean greater spread, but I certainly didn't notice anything. Can anyone better explain that to me?
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Certain bullets like the artemis and most over sniper guns have projectiles which expand their hitbox throughout their travel. That way you get much easier hits on longer ranges making sniping small components easier.
On the artemis the increasing hitbox was to big so they reduced the amount the projectile expands.
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Some long range weapon's bullets will become larger the farther they travel in order to reliably hit very long range targets.
This change altered the artemis shot to expand at a slower rate so the the projectile's max size would be less.
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I've just played a couple of artemis heavy builds. Here are my first impressions:
- One has to shoot a bit more precisely now - targeting the general area isn't enough anymore to take out specific components in the mid range area (400-800m).
- I've adjusted quickly to the reduced projectile velocity and didn't feel a major change in difficulty when it comes to aiming.
- It's still possible to lock down enemies from afar and finish them off while they're still literally a mile away. In close combat situations it's still possible to use the artemises to precisely take out critical components and they're also still good to deliver the killing blow once the enemies hull has been stripped. Overall the artemis still does the job it did before the patch with barely reduced efficiency.
- based on my guts, on a scale from 0 to 10 with 0 beeing absolutely underpowered, 10 absolutely overpowered and 5 a perfectly balanced weapon, I think you've moved the artemis from an 8 to a 7 with this patch.
Edit:
Regarding the CP adjustment: I've played 2 Labyrinth so far. They felt more dynamic (the balloon owner swapped owners relatively often in both matches). Also battles seem to shift their locations a bit closer to the balloon, as it's necessary to step in earlier if an enemy sneaks up on the center.
On a side-note: The Globe-thingy in the center is gone. That's a bug isn't it?
I'm looking forward to see how the changed affect the 3v3 matches, but I'm sure they're a step into the right direction as well.
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@Wundsalz
That's funny because a lot of people were upset that I was planning to change yaw speed to 23 degrees/s instead of the 25 that went out today. I am more than willing to push down to 23d/s if the Artemis is still considered overpowered.
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@Wundsalz
That's funny because a lot of people were upset that I was planning to change yaw speed to 23 degrees/s instead of the 25 that went out today. I am more than willing to push down to 23d/s if the Artemis is still considered overpowered.
I honestly don't think the yaw speed is the major balance factor for the artemis. I didn't really speak out much in the debate because its relevance on the weapons balance is negligible despite the heated discussion. If yaw were changed enough to truly affect the gun balance, the fun factor would take a severe hit due to the extreme time it took to move the gun from the central default position to target.
I was suspecting pre patch that the weapon still may need some alterations however I think a more direct approach with changes to dps and projectile speed would be best should further changes be necessary (disclaimer, I have yet to play with the artemis in production).
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@Smollett
That's fair. 23d/s might not be the way to go but I'd consider it regardless.
People will always love their meta and blood will always be spilled when I take it away :)
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Great, now any argument against reducing the effectiveness of the gun is now going to be written off as whining.
The problem with the artemis wasn't that it was over powered, it was simply overused which is easy to mistake as over powered. Now with the much slower muzzle speed and the moderately slower yaw, hopefully we will see some decline in its overuse as it won't be as easy a gun to use. Then maybe the community can get a bit less knee jerky about the whole situation
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Great, now any argument against reducing the effectiveness of the gun is now going to be written off as whining.
The problem with the artemis wasn't that it was over powered, it was simply overused which is easy to mistake as over powered. Now with the much slower muzzle speed and the moderately slower yaw, hopefully we will see some decline in its overuse as it won't be as easy a gun to use. Then maybe the community can get a bit less knee jerky about the whole situation
I would argue the problem with the artemis previously was that it was too easy to use for maximum effect. I'm waiting to see if this patch ameliorates the issue.
One could also argue that the artemis was too self reliant of a weapon able to do virtually everything at all ranges without the need of other weaponry. I'd prefer not to start that debate on this thread but it is certainly one of the concerns that was raised.
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I look forward to seeing artemis changes be shown in high level play, but after a few games in the new patch so far, artemis spam is still pretty much death in pug matches.
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artemis spam is still pretty much death in pug matches.
Grumble. Artemis should still be viable so I don't want to do too much DPS or muzzle nerfing. Yaw speed will make the gun feel crap to use but still maintain its destructive output given some additional preparation time. Other suggestions welcome.
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artemis spam is still pretty much death in pug matches.
Grumble. Artemis should still be viable so I don't want to do too much DPS or muzzle nerfing. Yaw speed will make the gun feel crap to use but still maintain its destructive output given some additional preparation time. Other suggestions welcome.
I will say that hitting nimblers ships like squids at a distance while they're moving is a lot more difficult, but triple artemis mobula absolutely destroyed galleon/spire/pyra. (And once again, pug match, opposing captains being lvl 3-5)
I can see the changes being a fine deterrent for one artemis, but that was never really the problem... it was usually double and especially triple artemis spams that became overbearing.
I'm not sure if this is a route anyone would want to take but... all I can think of is to put in some sort of diminishing returns for having multiple types of the same gun?
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Other suggestions welcome.
I'll reiterate my previous suggestion of decreasing the downward arc and adding an arming time to the projectile then. I'd probably change things to make the gun's primary shatter damage and its secondary explosive. This would do two major things.
Firstly, flying at the top of the skybox to exploit the huge downward angle becomes less possible, as ships will be able to simply slip underneath you. Making the Artemis have a tremendous horizontal range but narrow vertical range allows height counterplay while making it a dominant force in the hands of a captain who can match altitudes.
Secondly, adding an arming time and making the Shatter damage the primary makes the gun a disabler/hull killer at range, but limits it to simply disabling at close range: this gives an obvious counterplay (fly close), while allowing the Artemis ship to disable engines to regain their distance. The gun remains effective in its primary role (disabling) even at close range, but isn't the end-all of versatility that it is at medium/long range.
Just thoughts, of course.
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Currently secondary damage has aoe while primary doesn't. A change that drastic would alter the soul of The weapon too much.
The shot still travels significantly faster than hwacha so there's room to play there.
Finding a way to reduce its damage vs armor would allow the gun to keep its primary function with less of its undesirable latent all purposeness.
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Currently secondary damage has aoe while primary doesn't. A change that drastic would alter the soul of The weapon too much.
I'm not convinced about that (I'd keep the AoE on the primary damage for this theoretical change...it would just arm with direct Explosive damage), but I will grant you that it would be a drastic change.
Finding a way to reduce its damage vs armor would allow the gun to keep its primary function with less of its undesirable latent all purposeness.
The issue is that Shatter damage is good against both hull and components. Without changing the damage type it's hard to alter that.
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The yaw speed as a drawback is to fight versus reaction. Making it less likely to be effective on ships that whip by quickly.
I havent seen or played yett with the changes on actual competetiveness or pub games. But i am willing to believe that ide feel safer. But first, i must confirm it.
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The issue is that Shatter damage is good against both hull and components. Without changing the damage type it's hard to alter that.
Shatter does .2 damage to armor.
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Shatter does .2 damage to armor.
...derp.
Got my damage types completely confused for a moment there.
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At 55 armor damage per shot the 24 from shatter makes up half the armor damage.
Admittedly on paper the number seems quite small however times 6 times 5 that number becomes huge.
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All other points aside, I'm really enjoying the visual effect of the lowered muzzle speed. It looks like you're actually shooting a missile, as opposed to a jet of compressed air.
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One thing that isn't noted on those changes is that the CP caps changed from 200 seconds to 100 seconds.
IMO, this is far too quick. Before it helped speed up CP and make matches a bit more intense but now it feels like fighting over scraps. With 100 seconds it isn't about getting to the next point first but getting 2 points ahead first and having a ship stall the other point long enough to prevent them from gaining much.
Art feels fine. It is proving to be a very challenging weapon for people to utilize and one which is heavily affected by ship lateral movement. I faced a few ships with full art builds and they could only manage to land a 1/4th of their shots against an evasive flier. The lesser aoe effect helped this more. If there is any tuning needed then I say bump up the speed a tad but keep the aoe reduced.
Think we're going to have some complaints about arts being nerfed but it doesn't feel faceroll good anymore. You have to put effort into it.
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@Gilder.
That's a bug. should be fixed momentarily.
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@Gilder.
That's a bug. should be fixed momentarily.
momentarily as in within this week? This bug could very well ruin the long planned Aerodrome tournament which is supposed to start this saturday.
Edit:
artemis spam is still pretty much death in pug matches.
Grumble. Artemis should still be viable so I don't want to do too much DPS or muzzle nerfing. Yaw speed will make the gun feel crap to use but still maintain its destructive output given some additional preparation time. Other suggestions welcome.
What makes the artemis powerful are:
- the extremely wide field of operation (both with regards to the turning angles as well as the distance)
- very strong disabling power
- decent hull damage
nerfing the artemis on any of these layers alone should be sufficient to get the artemis back along the line with the other weapons.
I personally wouldn't mind the gun to be either less powerful when it comes to disabling equipment OR to completely get rid of the explosive damage. The insane field of operation alone would ensure that it stays a viable pick nevertheless.
I dislike the idea of reducing the turning speed of the artemis. It's quite low already and having to lift and move the mouse repetitively in order to point at the stuff one wants to hit isn't a fun mechanic.
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@wundsalz
As in, 2 minutes after I posted that it's been fixed.
You'll be fine int he aerodome.
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Nice to hear that. Thank you! :)
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Oh awesome. Thanks!
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I dislike the idea of reducing the turning speed of the artemis. It's quite low already and having to lift and move the mouse repetitively in order to point at the stuff one wants to hit isn't a fun mechanic.
The trick is just to move the mouse slower: I have NEVER had to lift my mouse to track any ship with any gun (including trying to track Squid with the Artemis or Lumberjack). Just don't move the mouse faster than the turning rate: doing so accomplishes nothing in terms of increasing the movement, and often makes lifting necessary.
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I dislike the idea of reducing the turning speed of the artemis. It's quite low already and having to lift and move the mouse repetitively in order to point at the stuff one wants to hit isn't a fun mechanic.
The trick is just to move the mouse slower: I have NEVER had to lift my mouse to track any ship with any gun (including trying to track Squid with the Artemis or Lumberjack). Just don't move the mouse faster than the turning rate: doing so accomplishes nothing in terms of increasing the movement, and often makes lifting necessary.
Yep, that's the right thing to do. Now I'm exited and want to turn my gun really really quickly and I end up moving the mouse faster than necessary nevertheless. It's somewhat intuitive to think quicker input correlates with faster movement ingame (and until a certain cap is reached, this is actually true). I observe myself falling for this every now and then.
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I would have been happier to see an arming time to its Shatter damage. Maybe within 500 metres? It shouldn't be able to pull the teeth out of assaulting ships by disabling weapons at a close range that would normally be reserved for gattling or heavy ammo caronade
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Other suggestions welcome.
I'll reiterate my previous suggestion of decreasing the downward arc and adding an arming time to the projectile then. I'd probably change things to make the gun's primary shatter damage and its secondary explosive. This would do two major things.
Secondly, adding an arming time and making the Shatter damage the primary makes the gun a disabler/hull killer at range, but limits it to simply disabling at close range: this gives an obvious counterplay (fly close), while allowing the Artemis ship to disable engines to regain their distance. The gun remains effective in its primary role (disabling) even at close range, but isn't the end-all of versatility that it is at medium/long range.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but does primary damage have any AOE? I thought it was reserved only for secondary damage. If you made Shatter primary, then you'd need to get direct hits on components to knock them out. You might as well do that with a gattling at that range. But I do like having an arming time added tho, they pretty much added it to most of the hard hitting ranged weapons available.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but does primary damage have any AOE? I thought it was reserved only for secondary damage. If you made Shatter primary, then you'd need to get direct hits on components to knock them out. You might as well do that with a gattling at that range. But I do like having an arming time added tho, they pretty much added it to most of the hard hitting ranged weapons available.
It would require changing the no AoE on primary rule, yes.