Guns Of Icarus Online

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: dragonmere on December 08, 2013, 01:16:27 pm

Title: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: dragonmere on December 08, 2013, 01:16:27 pm
I saw the pic on f-book of a PS4 displaying the GoIO logo, and it got me thinking...

I'm assuming that the cross-platform release is going to stir up some new customers. How, exactly, is this planned to work with the 'competitive community'?

Given that there are no clan building tools within the game itself, only clan identification, one must rely entirely on Steam groups/messages, these forums, and TeamSpeak/Skype to build a cohesive clan. PS4 users aren't going to have these tools as readily available, if at all.

Not to mention that it is very possible that a much higher percentage of them will not have/use a mic than we already see in the 'puter only version. Also the lack of text input: The non-verbal commands work in game play, but there is no non-verbal system for lobbies, let alone clan building. Lobby coordination is absolutely 100% imperative for a competitive match. This is going to make serious competitive matches, even outside of clans or 'high level' play, nearly impossible.

Due to this, it seems pretty apparent to me that the majority of the new player base will be strictly casual only. There is also a(n optimistic) possibility that the numbers brought in by the PS4 will be far greater than the PC/Mac/Linux users combined. What we would be left with is a vast majority of the players basically unable [or at least have to jump through some pretty serious hoops, and most won't want] to join clans, or play competitively at all.

Are there any plans to prevent this, or is this the intended future of the game? Random players, random weapons, random crew composition, random ships. Am I just being pessimistic?
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Squash on December 08, 2013, 01:18:46 pm
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/life.gif)
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: dragonmere on December 08, 2013, 01:25:49 pm
Meaning what?

In an attempt to not go into full 'rant-mode' about this, a topic I'm highly passionate about, I'd really appreciate it if only serious replies were posted. Animated gifs add nothing.

Thank you for your future cooperation, squash.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Dev Bubbles on December 08, 2013, 02:47:30 pm
With this game, it is by nature not the most casual game :P  So I don't think that would necessarily change with PS4.  We are looking to add more community tools in game but we are also developing a new match making system a big step beyond even the scramble system that we are putting in place, so everything needs to account for that.  With voice it is one of the unknowns that we need to figure it out.  But regardless, we're excited about PS4! 
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: dragonmere on December 08, 2013, 04:10:21 pm
By casual/competitive I don't mean FarmVille/DOTA. I'm saying those who just sit down and click play without putting any real thought into it, and those who take the time to form a team, determine load outs, etc. and perform general strategics before/during the match.

Most likely we can generally agree that PS4 players -if they had the exact same build we do right now - are going to be much more likely to just 'sit down and play'. Too much work on outside resources to get competitive.

Building some type of team/clan/competition/preparation/whatever tools into the game could possibly sway that trend. It would even help current PC/Mac/Linux users.

Of course, a good matchmaking tool alone might do the trick. If there was a proper venue for teams trying to play competitive matches, there might be more competitive players in general...
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: James T. Kirk on December 08, 2013, 06:31:15 pm
I agree. In order for clans to keep up with their PS4-based members, we need a game-based clan management system.

Does anyone remember that in-game calendar someone suggested a while back?
The one where we promote the watching and participating (and generally finding out about) the competitive scene via event calendar somewhere on the main menu?

Anyway, being added to the in-game clan roster would also show any clan-scheduled events alongside whatever ones our Muse Overlords deem fit to be broadcast to all players.

Maybe even a new tab? 'Options' 'Social' 'Progress' 'Clan'?

Regardless, we're going to have next to no competitive PS4 players unless it's easier for everyone to connect in-game.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Zander Broda on December 08, 2013, 09:10:35 pm
i assume they'll make use of the systems in place on the PS4 and online forums, like people do in other games...
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 08, 2013, 10:33:22 pm
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/275/4/d/pc_master_race_by_thewarrises-d5gmwti.jpg)

How it usually works...

"Alright everyone, who here is using PC and mouse/keyboard?"
"ME!!"
"Ok, your on my team. The rest of you people on console/gamepads. You are not worthy to even be in the same general pixel area as my screenname, go to the other team."
"You PC jerk! Console gamers are gamers too!!!"
"Yeah, thats nice, now get over there."
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: roder on December 09, 2013, 02:02:03 am
well, not sure if you guys are console gamers, but not many games support in-game clan functions, actually its rare. the last game i played that had in-game clan function was Halo 2, recent games dont really have it. But console clans still form, and its usually on forums such as these. actually, console gamers have as much tools as pc gamers to form clans, players have to go out of the game to join one lol yeah it might not be as readily available since you're already on the pc as a pc gamer, but if you're really into it you'll go on a forums.

if you set the definition of "competitive" as clans, microphones, and out-of-game contact you're setting yourself up for disappointment. the majority of course will be casual competitive. and by that definition, on PC there's still a third of the lobby that are mic-less and clanless. at least with ps4 theyre providing everyone with mics

for competitive play, console games usually use an intermediate, for e.g. GB (gamebattles), to host competitive matches
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 09, 2013, 03:50:07 am
I was part of Clan MacAddict back in the day. Yes, the one affiliated with the magazine before the mag turned to a steaming load of feces. We had console divisions within the clan. One of them being Halo, which then branched onto PC when Halo came to PC. But it was pretty dead. Most of the community's operations were focused entirely on Mac gaming in UT99. The console branch off was just an afterthought.

But there was some important truths learned from it. The Mac/PC side always held authority and power over the console. The two types of gamers, did not mix well. Console side of things was very casual too. What events and competitions they were able to get up, suffered most from players committing to it and willing to show up.

Yeah it is great Muse is expanding and getting this shot on PS4 but it is going to be an uphill battle to bring the two sets of gamers together. The only really good thing Muse has going for it is that Sony is not as anal as M$ about accessories. PS4 gamers will be able to keyboard/mouse which will help bridge the gap. But still, may want to have some segregation going on because regular control pad players will get their butts whipped royally and likely will find themselves quickly blamed as the cause of all problems in GOIO.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Arnox on December 09, 2013, 06:32:38 am
Pessimistic only if you think competitive events are the only way to play GoIo Dragonmere :)

But you should not be worried that much. The player base is and will be almost the same (yeah PC CoD players are in the same bag as CoD Console players for me). A lot of players (and good ones) are already using paddes while playing, so no big diff. no hardware issue since it's a console. HUGE TV screen so better aiming and bigger HULL icons and such. I will ride other the usual Pc/Console fighting crap : more players, new players, more potential recruits  ;D

From my part I hope the PS4 thing will manage to maintain a mid-level player base, since this part of the community is desperatly missing at the moment. 
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Mod Josie on December 09, 2013, 07:13:03 am
As long as the infrastructure for PS4 and PC players to organise themselves into competitive teams cross-platform is there then there isn't a big problem. This would likely be soluble by having in-built methods for organising clans (Not all PS4-owners have Steam and Teamspeak for instance). If the structure was built into the game itself such that both platforms could organise themselves and communicate effectively, then we can all welcome a large new pool of players to our community with our blessing. The day would come that a PS4 player was running a clan that PC-playing members were a part of - something I'd be excited to see.

I think this has probably been considered already, but it would be very highly recommended that PS4 players had mic/voice marked as an essential for taking part. Otherwise, communicating in matches or lobbies will be difficult unless they have a keyboard and mouse handy. And if they did have a keyboard, they may as well be using that to control their character over their controller, and would likely own a PC anyway.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 09, 2013, 08:18:52 am
Nah, no control pad can match mouse precision. As much as GOIO is airship combat, it is also an FPS. There are gimmicks you can get which can help on pads. I got stick extenders for my 360's pad and they did wonders, but it still is very imperfect.

Its going to happen...just sayin. Paddies will be limited in their abilities compared to mouse and it is going to come down to insisting those players go keyboard/mouse or pad/mouse if they expect to really be of use. Specially when you consider how finicky some of the parts on the ships are to hit.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Mod Josie on December 09, 2013, 09:46:34 am
Nah, no control pad can match mouse precision. As much as GOIO is airship combat, it is also an FPS. There are gimmicks you can get which can help on pads. I got stick extenders for my 360's pad and they did wonders, but it still is very imperfect.
Its going to happen...just sayin. Paddies will be limited in their abilities compared to mouse and it is going to come down to insisting those players go keyboard/mouse or pad/mouse if they expect to really be of use. Specially when you consider how finicky some of the parts on the ships are to hit.
I am well aware of the limitations, I agree with you on that front. The real problem however is organising matches and contacting out-of-game people cross-platform if they don't have Steam etc, and that they should have voice chat enabled at all times so they can at least communicate with PC players. I don't really mind having people playing with a pad if they're willing to communicate. That factor alone would put them an edge over some PC players who refuse to communicate/listen and can hence swing a match against your favour.
I suppose what I want to see above all else is an in-game way for players to organise events within the game itself so that players on both platforms can find it and contribute.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Captain Smollett on December 09, 2013, 03:34:17 pm
Listen people are people, there will likely be just as many people willing to play competitively on console as there are on computer.

As far as I understand they'll have access to steam and steam messages and with the rotation speed constraints on the turrets and accuracy having to do much more with aim than twitch reflexes you'll see only the most marginal benefit to keyboard and mouse over the gamepad (not to mention the fact that the gamepad will likely be slightly better for walking around the ship).

I don't think this will be as big of a problem as some are anticipating.  To me this is a huge opportunity to expand the player base and since competitive players tend to play the game the longest hopefully clans will eagerly reach out to console players and make GOI even better than it is now.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Erheller on December 09, 2013, 04:14:04 pm
As far as I'm aware, it's possible to use mouse and keyboard with the PS4.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Spud Nick on December 09, 2013, 10:23:27 pm
Most online games that are coming to the consoles will be on separate servers. I don't think that PC players will be able to play with the PS4 players.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: N-Sunderland on December 09, 2013, 11:57:49 pm
Most online games that are coming to the consoles will be on separate servers. I don't think that PC players will be able to play with the PS4 players.

Muse confirmed quite a while ago that PS4 players and PC players will be on the same servers.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Coldcurse on December 10, 2013, 02:12:07 am
the question wont be if there will be enough ps4 players to play the game.

the real qustion is:
Will the server be able to handle the amount of people?
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Thomas on December 10, 2013, 05:19:03 am
It'll be interesting. Shouldn't be too much of a problem for console users to communicate and organize. More often than not they're likely to have headsets/mics
( http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/02/21/ps4-bundled-with-headset-more-dualshock-4-details-revealed.aspx )
, not to mention the in game signals/voices. Then there's also console-based networks and forums where players often communicate. I know they were pretty popular on the xbox for forming clans and setting up playtimes, I expect playstation has something similar.

There's always the controller issue, which may lead to some aim-assist features that are present in most console shooting games; but GoIO is already controller compatible, so you can plug in your controller and give it a whirl if you have one, see how it handles. I've tried it a little, but it feels odd, takes some getting used to.

So they're generally be able to form competitive teams and be able to participate in contests and events as they occur. It still would be nice (and I'm sure it's on the ever growing to-do list) to have more robust in-game clan features; and muse is aware of our desire for such. One thing I think might help bridge the gap was the in-game calendar someone mentioned. Letting players view (and possibly sign up) for events/competitions.

Although it might be a little intense if there's a massive influx of players. Gonna have to put mah game face on. >=I
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: roder on December 12, 2013, 01:07:38 am
But still, may want to have some segregation going on because regular control pad players will get their butts whipped royally and likely will find themselves quickly blamed as the cause of all problems in GOIO.

Nah, no control pad can match mouse precision. As much as GOIO is airship combat, it is also an FPS. There are gimmicks you can get which can help on pads. I got stick extenders for my 360's pad and they did wonders, but it still is very imperfect.

Its going to happen...just sayin. Paddies will be limited in their abilities compared to mouse and it is going to come down to insisting those players go keyboard/mouse or pad/mouse if they expect to really be of use. Specially when you consider how finicky some of the parts on the ships are to hit.

lol your posts reek of PC elitism. maybe you shouldn't be so condescending :) if you really want GoIO to succeed as a game, you'd be more like Captain Smollett. and GoIO is barely an FPS, the gunner is only 1 role, the two others roles are mostly navigation and I think the sticks actually benefit from that. Sticks are better than M+K for two genres, sims and fighting games. A lot of people play flight sims better with gamepad, not to say GoIO is a flight sim, but it might share a lot similar feelings. And I think Engineer with 3rd person perspective would be pretty ideal for gamepad use.

i really don't think aim and accuracy are the cornerstones of GoIO gameplay, the battle isnt won with perfect aim, but more about putting your gunners in a better position to shoot enemy ships, the real battle is trying to put your allied ships in better positions and putting enemy ships in vulnerable positions, after that i think the battle is already won :)
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Sammy B. T. on December 12, 2013, 01:56:51 am
I think the only major benefit PC players will have over consoles would be communication through typing and headsets (in my experience console headsets are ridiculously expensive). Gunning might be a bit easier with a mouse but its hardly anything like a FPS
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Thomas on December 12, 2013, 02:43:44 am
Gunning might be a little trickier, but not by much. In general there's lot of movement from your ship and the enemy, so pinpoint shots are rare. The hitboxes are pretty large too, even for components; so there shouldn't be an issue. As long as you're 'close enough' you're probably hitting what you need to.

Also, I pointed out and linked that the PS4 will actually come with a headset included. So nearly 100% of PS4 users will actually have a headset and be able to communicate with everyone.

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013/10/30/ps4-the-ultimate-faq-north-america/



(http://25.media.tumblr.com/76f5873e2bb89b903f48934fc45b098c/tumblr_moezjrc5EZ1s63ovdo1_1280.jpg)
http://www.gamespot.com/forums/system-wars-314159282/ps4-comes-with-headset-xbox-one-does-not-29407995/


Really PS4 users are likely to have a one up on PC users, since more of them will have mics (and larger screens).
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Zander Broda on December 12, 2013, 02:53:08 am
this game isn't twitch based, i see no reason a controller would be inferior in any way.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Coldcurse on December 12, 2013, 09:10:12 am
well the game does have controller support
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 13, 2013, 04:34:59 am
I think the only major benefit PC players will have over consoles would be communication through typing and headsets (in my experience console headsets are ridiculously expensive). Gunning might be a bit easier with a mouse but its hardly anything like a FPS

No everything will. No way you can snap your view to a full 180 on the helm with a pad as fast as you can with a mouse. Engineering is similar with repairs. If you have to move fast and adjust quickly for repairs/extinguish, you can't do it fast enough with pads. It'll be playable yes but pad based teams will not be able to compete without either heavy tweaks to sensitivity or just giving up and connecting a mouse.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Alistair MacBain on December 13, 2013, 04:52:21 am
Yep.
I doubt a player with a controller can perform as good as one with mouse and keyboard.
Starting with the advanced technic of movement repair (Repairing but already running away from the component, before the hitanimation finished) and pretty much any shortcut.
I doubt a console player can adjust the jumps, specially on a squid as fast as a pc player.
Gunning will be alot harder, specially for longrange fights.
Same goes for piloting as gilder mentioned ...
You cant look around as fast as a pc player and thats a real downside.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Gryphos on December 13, 2013, 07:17:05 am
Yeah, maybe in some ways the ps4 players will be at a slight disadvantage, but it definitely won't be the landslide inferiority that some people describe. And it definitely won't be enough of a difference to stop ps4 teams being successful in competitive play.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Sammy B. T. on December 13, 2013, 12:39:59 pm
No everything will. No way you can snap your view to a full 180 on the helm with a pad as fast as you can with a mouse.

A lot of console games have an automatic 180 turn on one of the joysticks. I'd be surprised if GOIO didn't have this.

Quote
Engineering is similar with repairs. If you have to move fast and adjust quickly for repairs/extinguish, you can't do it fast enough with pads. It'll be playable yes but pad based teams will not be able to compete without either heavy tweaks to sensitivity or just giving up and connecting a mouse.

Obviously keyboard and mouse will be better. I just don't think it will be overpowering. I'd see it like I see pilots who haven't customized their key bindings like I have.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Thomas on December 13, 2013, 03:33:32 pm
This is starting to sound a lot like a PC gaming vs Console gaming discussion. They both have their pros and cons, but they're not dramatically different from one other. The big difference being the input source. Keyboard/mouse and a controller.

In theory they'll have the button reassignment and sensitivity adjustments like we do now, and that should be more than enough to allow for comparable results. Most of the other functions are timing and practice, and any player can pick those up over time.

Really we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. You can actually toss your controller in right now and give it a whirl. I've done it a couple times, and it works well, but I'm just too used to a mouse and keyboard, making it harder to player this game with a controller.

I think the main point the thread was trying to address was better in game functions for clan functionality, to promote the console players to form clans and be competitive, as opposed to endless pub lobbies. I believe it was mentioned that a lot of current console games already have a thriving competitive scene, as a lot of the newer consoles give players tools to network with each other.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Captain Smollett on December 13, 2013, 05:52:57 pm
I actually have always played this with a relatively low mouse sensitivity and I've managed to do alright in this game.

I used to play a good amount of fps on consoles with my sensitivity turned high and could whip around a 180 at pretty much the same pace as I do now with my mouse in this game.  That being said, the speed of a 180 turn in this game isn't nearly as critical as communication teamwork, strategy, tactics and positioning.  I think console gamer's will do just fine.

No everything will. No way you can snap your view to a full 180 on the helm with a pad as fast as you can with a mouse. Engineering is similar with repairs. If you have to move fast and adjust quickly for repairs/extinguish, you can't do it fast enough with pads. It'll be playable yes but pad based teams will not be able to compete without either heavy tweaks to sensitivity or just giving up and connecting a mouse.
Title: Re: Competitive play and the PS4
Post by: Crafeksterty on December 15, 2013, 08:45:53 am
It is true that consoles will be a bit worse off in terms of skill or control within the game.

But when will this be?


How many changes will we see in the game that actually makes console version playable? Also Adventure mode? Will that be in too? etc etc.

Imagine near future, where goio has been updated up to 2.0.0. What new shit and stuff will be out there then? All i can say is that i hope people play the console version when its out. Muse deserve it. What other games that are like Goio but is as big or bigger than Goio?