Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Keyvias on December 04, 2013, 06:29:38 am
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Here are the second season rules, but we'd love to take the rest of the week to hear your thoughts on the season rules, our league idea, and end of season tournament.
GLOSSARY
This is a simple glossary of key terms so that there is no confusion when discussing terms.
Competitive TEAM (Team): Team scores are tracked in the competitive scene and they are fighting for that slot in the The Fabria Conclusion. The top ten teams will be tracked here. A team is simply a captain applying for events, tournaments, and gathering a roster. There is no minimum or maximum size on a team. For events with prizes there is a maximum of four substitutes as far as prizes are concerned. Team captains should officially register for competitive play by sending an email to Competitive@musegames.com with their team name.
TO: Abreviation of ‘Tournament Organiser’
SKIRMISH: A match organised at any time between two teams to gain points within the Competitive system. The matches are very lax in their formatting, read the skirmish section below.
Once two Teams have agreed to a skirmish, the winning team would send a screen cap of the event over to Competitive@musegames.com(subject line should read “Competitive [Team Name vs Team Name] [Number of points won]”).
Teams collecting points will be ranked in a leaderboard on the competitive site.
SKIRMISHES
In Skirmishes, the map and the server must be agreed upon by both teams, if no agreement can be reached, then the teams are free to not play the skirmish and find another opponent.
Skirmishes do NOT have to be a deathmatch or point capture match. Skirmishes can be in whatever format as long as both teams agree and there is a clear winner.
E.g. the skirmish could be all spires all carronades
e.g. the skirmish could be squid racing, both teams simply have to agree to the match.
The skirmish results are reported via screencap emailed to the competitive address (Competitive@musegames.com).
You may only gain points once against the same team in skirmishes per week.
POINTS
Each victory against a Competitive Team is worth 1 point for the victorious Team. It does not matter if the match is an organized Skirmish, or a tournament of any kind. If both sides are competitive teams, then a Skirmish point may be claimed. Any Skirmish is worth 1 point; however, if a team of lower Rank defeats a higher Rank team, an extra “underdog” point may be claimed, meaning that a maximum of 2 points can be awarded per Competitive Match.
POINT LIMIT
Each week, each team can earn a maximum of 4 Points with an exception for “underdog” points. An Official Skirmish week begins at 12 a.m. EST Monday, and ends at 11:59 p.m. EST Sunday, at which point the Standings are updated.
PARTICIPATION POINT
Every week you can earn one point simply by being a part of a skirmish, win or lose. This does not count towards your cap.
TOURNAMENT
Tournaments are organised by TOs, and they can be players or team Muse. Every tournament CAN be part of the competitive system, provided that the TO abides by our community standard and spirit. Any team meeting the basic requirements of competitive play will be allowed to compete in every tournament that we endorse. Any competitive event that excludes eligible teams will receive neither sponsorship nor recognition from Muse.
There is a Muse Standard Rules pack provided (see below), however the TO can change any rules at his or her discretion. Any situations not covered by the TO default to the standard rules.
You may fight the same team repeatedly for points in a tournament, but the underdog bonus does not apply in a tournament.
STANDARD RULES
Should a tournament not specify any rules about a certain detail, it will default to the Muse Standard Rules listed below. Tournament organizers can also opt to use the Muse Standard Rules should they not wish to create their own.
POINTS & FORMATS
Each tournament match win counts as a point towards the post-season. If the tournament is in a mixed team format, meaning multiple teams fighting on a side against multiple teams on the other side (presumably with one team per ship), then both teams on the winning side are eligible to receive points toward the post-season. If the format of the tournament is based on cumulative kill counts only, then we will work with the organizer(s) to determine the winning conditions and award points based on the winning conditions specific to that tournament.
BONUS TOURNAMENT POINTS
The top three teams earn bonus points that do not count toward the weekly limit. The first place earns three bonus points, the second place earns two bonus points, and third place earns one bonus point.
SUBSTITUTIONS
1. A team may have any number of substitutes for the event, but only up to 12 people on the team determined by the team captain may earn prizes
2. Any crew member can be substituted.
3. Cross team substitution is permitted, as long as:
4. No substitute may appear on any other team in the event.
MATCH FORMAT
1. A match between 2 teams will be best out of 3.
2. There is at the moment no time limit requirement. We do encourage teams to keep the matches to within an hour, so that everyone who volunteers or waits for the next round to start are not significantly disrupted. If we see the flow of the tournament significantly disrupted in the future, we will consider instituting time limits with tie-breaking rules.
DISCONNECTIONS AND CONNECTION ISSUES
Matches are not restarted for disconnects, unless:
1. If both teams agree to restart
2. Before the first kill if 25% of the matches players disconnect, the match can be restarted by either team.
3. Server issue or lag spikes can start a restart if both teams agree or the referee at the organizer’s discretion.
NO-SHOWS AND FORFEITURE
1. Both teams and the referee are expected to gather and coordinate at least fifteen minutes before the scheduled start time for the match.
2. If a team cannot assemble its roster five minutes before the scheduled start time, that team must either forfeit or go "as-is" with AI crew.
3. If the referee does not show at least fifteen minutes before the scheduled start time for the match, then both sides must agree to either wait for the referee to arrive, agree upon a CA to be chosen as a new referee, or
4. If the referee does not show and a compromise on waiting OR on a new referee cannot be reached, the match will not occur and may be rescheduled.
REFEREES AND ARBITRATION
1. The tournament organizer and a chosen referee for a match is to be respected as having the authority to interpret the rules and judge the event.
2. The chosen referee or the tournament organizer for a match has the final say in all judgements.
3. After the event, if there are any disagreements between players and the organizer and no agreement can be reached, please contact team Muse at feedback@musegames.com to help mediate the issue.
MAPS
Each team chooses a map and the winner of a coin flip decides the map. The loser then chooses the next map.
SERVERS
The default server is American, but can be changed if both teams agree, or if specified by the Tournament Organizer.
TIME LIMITS
There is at the moment no time limit requirement. We do encourage teams to keep the matches to within an hour, so that everyone who volunteers or waits for the next round to start are not significantly disrupted. If we see the flow of the tournament significantly disrupted in the future, we will consider instituting time limits with tie-breaking rules.
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The MUSE LEVIATHAN SEASONAL:
This is the league event that we are posting that will last throughout a competitive season. It is designed to be really flexible, and as a more laid back league event complementing other events going on in the community.
SIGN UPS
Every Monday a sign up thread is opened with these questions:
Name of Team:
Team Captain:
Times available:
FORMAT
On Thursday at 11:59 p.m. EST the teams will be assigned to fight one another at mutual available time. An organizer will create the match and manage both teams in the match. The match will be a best out of three.
Organizers will be chosen from Muse team, CA’s, and other members of the community appointed by Muse who opt in to help Ref.
If a team does not show at their scheduled time, then the other team is granted the victory by default.
Points will be added to the team’s season total.
The points earned in the event will also have their own leaderboard with the top four slots earning the titles
Lord
Duke
Knight
Squire
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End of Season Tournament
The Fabria Conclusion Invitational post-season tournament:
The end of season grand tournament will be run over the course of 2 days, and is an invitational event. To qualify, you must be one of the top 10 teams in the season (see standings for points). Additionally, there are also two teams that will be voted in by the community from remaining qualifying teams.
The tournament will be run using standard Muse Rules
Day 1:
The 12 teams are split up into four groups of three, This is a round robin event, where the top two teams from each pool will advance, bringing the total number of teams to eight. These teams will then be seeded for day two.
Day 2:
A standard single elimination, best of three tournament, with the advancing eight teams seeded throughout.
There will be 3 rounds - Quarter Finals, Semi Finals, and Finals, starting with 8 teams, and ending with 1 winner. There will also be an extra game to determine 3rd place.
All matches will start on Fjords, with loser of the first match choosing between Paritan, Duel and Dunes.
Prizes:
The winning team is awarded a platinum badge, 2nd gets gold, 3rd gets silver, and each other team gets a bronze participation badge. The first place winner will also get the opportunity to name AI in the game. Individual team members of the winning team will also each receive a secret prize announced on the final day of the tournament.
The winning team will also be featured on the Competitive front page, facebook, and Steam forum, as well as in the newsletter.
All rewards are subject to change.
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give me 2 days to read this
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give me 2 days to read this
This.
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Okay took, a crack at organizing this beast, and removing any unnecessary filler.
SKIRMISHES:
Skirmishes are matches organized at any time between two teams to gain points within the Competitive system. Once two Teams have agreed to a skirmish, the winning team would send a screen cap of the event over to Competitive@musegames.com(subject line should read “Competitive [Team Name vs Team Name] [Number of points won]”). Teams collecting points will be ranked in a leader board on the competitive site.
In Skirmishes, the map and the server must be agreed upon by both teams, if no agreement can be reached, then the teams are free to not play the skirmish and find another opponent.
An Official Skirmish week begins at 12 a.m. EST Monday, and ends at 11:59 p.m. EST Sunday, at which point the standings are updated.
Skirmishes can be both death match and the capture the point.
POINTS:
Each victory against a competitive team is worth one point for the victorious team. If both sides are competitive teams, then a Skirmish point may be claimed, if the match was agreed to count towards competitive points prior to its start. Any Skirmish is worth 1 point; however, if a team of lower Rank defeats a higher Rank team, an extra “underdog” point may be claimed, meaning that a maximum of 2 points can be awarded per Competitive Match. You may only gain points once against the same team in skirmishes per week. Each week, each team can earn a maximum of five points, with an exception for “underdog” points. You may fight the same team repeatedly for points in a tournament, but the underdog bonus does not apply in a tournament.
RANKED LADDER:
The Skirmish Ladder is made up 3 tiers:
Tier 3 - Elite - is 16+SP
Tier 2 - Competitor - 6 to 15 SP
Tier 1 - Newcomer - 0 to 5 SP
SEASON END TOURNAMENT:
The end of season tournament will be run over the course of 2 days, and is an invitational event. To qualify, you must be one of the top 10 teams in the season (see standings for points). Additionally, there are also two teams that will be voted in by the community from remaining qualifying teams.
Day 1:
The 12 teams are split up into four groups of three, This is a round robin event, where the top two teams from each pool will advance, bringing the total number of teams to eight. These teams will then be seeded for day two.
Day 2:
A standard single elimination, best of three tournament, with the advancing eight teams seeded throughout.
There will be 3 rounds - Quarter Finals, Semi Finals, and Finals, starting with 8 teams, and ending with 1 winner. There will also be an extra game to determine 3rd place.
All matches will start on Fjords, with loser of the first match choosing between Paritan, Duel and Dunes.
Prizes:
The winning team is awarded a platinum badge, 2nd gets gold, 3rd gets silver, and each other team gets a bronze participation badge. The first place winner will also get the opportunity to name AI in the game. Individual team members of the winning team will also each receive a secret prize announced on the final day of the tournament.
The winning team will also be featured on the Competitive front page, facebook, and Steam forum, as well as in the newsletter.
All rewards are subject to change.
SUBSTITUTIONS:
1. A team may have any number of substitutes for the skirmishes and tourament, but only a maximum of twelve members of the team can claim prizes(at their own discretion).
2. Any crew member can be substituted.
3. Substitutes may not join any other team in any skirmishes or season end tournament.
DISCONNECTIONS AND CONNECTION ISSUES:
Matches are not restarted for disconnects, unless:
1. If both teams agree to restart.
2. Before the first kill if 25% of the matches players disconnect, the match can be restarted by either team.
3. Server issue or lag spikes can start a restart if both teams agree or the referee at the organizer’s discretion.
ATTENDANCE:
1. Both teams and the referee are expected to gather and coordinate at least fifteen minutes before the scheduled start time for the match.
2. If a team cannot assemble its roster five minutes before the scheduled start time, that team must either forfeit or go "as-is" with AI crew.
3. If the referee does not show at least fifteen minutes before the scheduled start time for the match, then both sides must agree to either wait for the referee to arrive, OR agree upon a CA to be chosen as a new referee. If the referee does not show and a compromise on waiting OR on a new referee cannot be reached, the match will not occur and may be rescheduled.
REFEREES AND ARBITRATION:
1. The tournament organizer and a chosen referee for a match is to be respected as having the authority to interpret the rules and judge the event.
2. The chosen referee or the tournament organizer for a match has the final say in all judgements.
3. After the event, if there are any disagreements between players and the organizer and no agreement can be reached, please contact team Muse at feedback@musegames.com to help mediate the issue.
I removed the entire bit about the leviathan tournament because I think that should have it's own event thread.
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In addition I propose to add this:
QUALIFICATION:
To qualify for competitive play, a team must enter with eight preselected members. A team may be part of a clan or un-clanned. If a team is part of a clan it may choose to represent it's clan, or represent itself as a separate entity. If a clan chooses to enter more than one team, only one team may be the clan's official team. The other team(s) may compete, but as separate entities.
MAP POOL:
The maps that will be competed on will be pre-determined by the tournament organizer or referee by random selection. Each team's side will be pre-determined by the tournament organizer or referee by random selection.
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While I like the no limits on size, the point cap being as high as five per week really skews things in favor of the large clans. If you're a small clan with 12ish people, playing and winning five competitive games every week would be quite difficult. Last season the Ducks had to work hard at the beginning to reach five and we are somewhat above average in times of size. I would suggest three or four to be the point cap limit which would basically prevent one of the larger clans, or even just a medium sized clan from just quickly running the points up.
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LADDER UNDERDOG POINTS
An extra underdog point is given to victories against higher tier teams meaning if a team in T1 wins against a team in T2 the victory is worth 3 points, and the same T1 team wins against a team in T3 the victory is then worth 4 points.
This seems a bit unclear as to whether an underdog point is worth 1 point, 2 points or 3 points.
MAPS
The default starting map is Fjords. with loser of the first match choosing between Paritan, Duel, and Dunes.
Personally I like random maps better, maps change the style of combat tremendously and leaving it up to fate forces teams to prepare for everything thereby heightening the level of play.
While I like the no limits on size, the point cap being as high as five per week really skews things in favor of the large clans. If you're a small clan with 12ish people, playing and winning five competitive games every week would be quite difficult. Last season the Ducks had to work hard at the beginning to reach five and we are somewhat above average in times of size. I would suggest three or four to be the point cap limit which would basically prevent one of the larger clans, or even just a medium sized clan from just quickly running the points up.
I agree, I think this season should try out a 4 point cap limit so that smaller clans can stay competitive in the system.
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Also, this may be implied but it would be great to see tournaments using standard Muse formats to have a rule requiring the TO's to submit screenshots and point totals to Muse so teams get automatically credited for their victories.
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Hey what's up guys. Taking a break from working on stuff and testing to chime in :D
@Bryon, yeah sorry for the longer post. We decided to post everything in entirety so people can see all the stuff together as a whole. It does make it harder to digest hahaha. Apologies!
With team size, we've been listening to different feedback, and decided on making the definition of team more flexible. One reason is that, this gives more flexibility for substitutions and more consideration for teams scheduling etc. As long as there is a team captain who is responsible for the team in terms of organization, signups, and substation, and communications with the tournament organizers and us, we feel that flexibility here works and should make the process of forming and managing a team a bit easier. Because we orient towards the team, the flexibility of the team being under a clan's umbrella or not is also there. But we can definitely consider doing more for clans as well. Our logic is to try to remove as much red tape as possible for everyone basically.
This is definitely not to argue against your point or suggestion, but just to give you an idea of our thought process :D
@Smollett and Sammy: Thanks a lot for the point on the weekly point cap number. Noted, we'll stew on this more :)
Also, let me just take a step back and recap the spirit behind what we do.
1. We want to provide a structure that is useful and approachable for you guys who take the initiative and spend the incredible efforts to organize stuff and to participate in them. So the idea is to be more flexible to work with people and complement people, but still have some standardization and structure, which would make coordination and mediation easier.
2. We are looking to start our own stuff, partly because we think it's fun, but that's only a smaller part of it. The bigger part is to give people more choice and more stuff to have fun with. The aim for our league event is once again flexibility and simplicity. The format of it probably won't be viewed as the most hard core, hahaha, but that's ok. If people have one more event to enjoy, we are perfectly happy.
With the ruleset that we've put forth so far, you should see echoes of current and past events. And that is definitely intentional. We wanted to take ideas that we think work well, and as long as the ideas are good, we don't really care where they come from. We are also learning a lot from past mistakes and stumbles. We don't always do things well, and we do make mistakes. But we try to look at the mistakes we make and fix them and get better. This is in everything we do. So please keep in mind that we are not perfect, and we have a lot of room for improvement. But we do try. The most important thing is for everyone to enjoy the game and cherish the friendship we all have.
Keep the feedback coming everyone! And thanks again for being supportive!
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As always I'm with Smollett. I don't know why Fjords is the benchmark map, every map has its problems and Fjords no less than others. Rather than encouraging the belief that maps can be fit into categories, it's better to consider each map fostering its own builds and strategies, and treat Fjords, Dunes, and Labyrinth as the unique snowflakes that they are. I'd much prefer random maps.
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@Squash, ok point taken. It's a good one. We can think of something better than having Fjords as the default map.
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Would say to choose the first map by random and then the loosers choice is a nice idea. But im not sure how the random map thing can be done.
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Yeah good question, one idea is a "coin flip," but that gives team little time to prepare. One thing we can do is to use a map randomizer and we draw the first map for each round of the tourney or each week of league play. And we announce the results of the drawing some time ahead of time. Just an idea. We'll think this through more tomorrow and try to propose something reasonable.
Thanks a lot!
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Changes added to the ruleset
5 points per week has been lowered to 4.
Map rules have been changed to:
There is a coin flip between the two teams and the winner decides the map. The loser of the match then chooses the next map.
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can I ask to remove squid racing from the list of skirmishes.
I don't think it's valid to use as a point skirmish as long as it's not a ingame supported gamemode.
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POINTS
Each victory against a Competitive Team is worth 1 point for the victorious Team. It does not matter if the match is an organized Skirmish, or a tournament of any kind. If both sides are competitive teams, then a Skirmish point may be claimed. Any Skirmish is worth 1 point; however, if a team of lower Rank defeats a higher Rank team, an extra “underdog” point may be claimed, meaning that a maximum of 2 points can be awarded per Competitive Match.
RANKED LADDER
The Ladder is made up 3 tiers,
Tier 3 - Elite - is 17+Points
Tier 2 - Competitor - 8 to 16 Points
Tier 1 - Newcomer - 0 to 7 Points
POINT LIMIT
Each week, each team can earn a maximum of 3 Points with an exception for “underdog” points. An Official Skirmish week begins at 12 a.m. EST Monday, and ends at 11:59 p.m. EST Sunday, at which point the Standings are updated.
LADDER UNDERDOG POINTS
An extra underdog point is given to victories against higher tier teams meaning if a team in T1 wins against a team in T2 the victory is worth 3 points, and the same T1 team wins against a team in T3 the victory is then worth 4 points.
Just a bit of inconsistency in these parts. The point limit is listed at 3 points per weak but I believe you wanted it to be 4?
Also I'm not sure how great it is to give a team the ability to earn as many as 4 extra points from an underdog win. Does that mean a T1 team could earn as many as 16 points in one weak from beating 4 tier 3 teams? The wording is a bit vague on this.
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can I ask to remove squid racing from the list of skirmishes.
I don't think it's valid to use as a point skirmish as long as it's not a ingame supported gamemode.
I disagree entirely, I think all points should be earned from squid racing only, I'm entirely against the murdering of airships and I think we can all agree racing to be a much more peaceful way to resolve interclan differences.
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I love you Smollett.
Anyways. I had another suggestion.
when winning team gets a point for a win, I think it could be a good idea to give the losing team some sort of participation point. be it 0,25 or 0,5 points to add to their score.
Why?
because an active team that plays 20 games and though loses all 20, atleast in my eyes have worked for it and deserves to be in the tournament more than a team who played 3 games and gets invited.
also it would be a major boost to teams to start scrimmaging if they get points just for doing it.
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But i fear if the gap between win and loose is that close you can farm yourself quite easily into the tournament without even winning.
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But i fear if the gap between win and loose is that close you can farm yourself quite easily into the tournament without even winning.
could be something like every week you can only earn loser points up to 1 point or something like that.
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I get what Skrim is saying, a team that puts itself forward and loses should have some kind of advantage over a team that didn't participate at all that week. What if each team that participates in at least one game in the week gets a point, but only the one point per week.
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Rules changed:
Removed skirmish ladder. Makes it simpler and there's still the extra point if they're higher than you.
Added a participation point. So an extra point per week to every team that is part of a skirmish. (not affected by weekly cap)
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can we go all in on 1 match so we earn 3 points immidiatly?
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I get what Skrim is saying, a team that puts itself forward and loses should have some kind of advantage over a team that didn't participate at all that week. What if each team that participates in at least one game in the week gets a point, but only the one point per week.
its easier to keep an eye on and fair to both winning and losing team. good idea.
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There is a big difference between "I don't want to show up this week to stay safe" vs "Most of my crew is gone this week so better just come back next week."
Not a fan of participation points.
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There is a big difference between "I don't want to show up this week to stay safe" vs "Most of my crew is gone this week so better just come back next week."
Not a fan of participation points.
me neither
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Competitive TEAM (Team): Team scores are tracked in the competitive scene and they are fighting for that slot in the The Fabria Conclusion. The top ten teams will be tracked here. A team is simply a captain applying for events, tournaments, and gathering a roster. There is no minimum or maximum size on a team. For events with prizes there is a maximum of four substitutes as far as prizes are concerned. Team captains should officially register for competitive play by sending an email to Competitive@musegames.com with their team name.
You need a minimum of 8, else you risk getting bogged down by the lone guy saying he's got his buddies all ready and they just clog the registration when they never show up. If we want more real competitive teams out there, we have to set some kind of precedent.
NO-SHOWS AND FORFEITURE
1. Both teams and the referee are expected to gather and coordinate at least fifteen minutes before the scheduled start time for the match.
2. If a team cannot assemble its roster five minutes before the scheduled start time, that team must either forfeit or go "as-is" with AI crew.
3. If the referee does not show at least fifteen minutes before the scheduled start time for the match, then both sides must agree to either wait for the referee to arrive, agree upon a CA to be chosen as a new referee, or
4. If the referee does not show and a compromise on waiting OR on a new referee cannot be reached, the match will not occur and may be rescheduled.
2. Seems like a fairly harsh rule to expect. I realize you want people to be on time, but rarely has this been an issue, and I'd probably go tell someone to pack sand if they said I had to use ai crew because my guy went for a leak 5 min before a match. Just say 5 min after the start time instead. You get the same message across at a much less likely point of enforcement.
4. Is this saying a ref is required for all matches? I hope you have a healthy pool of ref's then. If I jump through hoops to schedule a match, only for it to be for nothing because the ref decides to not show, I can't imagine the rage. Surely we as a community have shown we are capable of fair play and can send in screens if no ref is available.
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I can attest that nothing is more enraging than having all players ready for a game but have it delayed excessively because of a late third party. If you got the teams present and ready to go, then let them play, especially in the context of skirmishes.
Also I really hope a ref doesn't need to be present at all games.
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POINTS
Each victory against a Competitive Team is worth 1 point for the victorious Team. It does not matter if the match is an organized Skirmish, or a tournament of any kind. If both sides are competitive teams, then a Skirmish point may be claimed. Any Skirmish is worth 1 point; however, if a team of lower Rank defeats a higher Rank team, an extra “underdog” point may be claimed, meaning that a maximum of 2 points can be awarded per Competitive Match.
RANKED LADDER
The Ladder is made up 3 tiers,
Tier 3 - Elite - is 17+Points
Tier 2 - Competitor - 8 to 16 Points
Tier 1 - Newcomer - 0 to 7 Points
POINT LIMIT
Each week, each team can earn a maximum of 3 Points with an exception for “underdog” points. An Official Skirmish week begins at 12 a.m. EST Monday, and ends at 11:59 p.m. EST Sunday, at which point the Standings are updated.
LADDER UNDERDOG POINTS
An extra underdog point is given to victories against higher tier teams meaning if a team in T1 wins against a team in T2 the victory is worth 3 points, and the same T1 team wins against a team in T3 the victory is then worth 4 points.
Just a bit of inconsistency in these parts. The point limit is listed at 3 points per weak but I believe you wanted it to be 4?
Also I'm not sure how great it is to give a team the ability to earn as many as 4 extra points from an underdog win. Does that mean a T1 team could earn as many as 16 points in one weak from beating 4 tier 3 teams? The wording is a bit vague on this.
If a new clan or a clan without points is able to beat 4 clans that have that many points (meaning those would be among THE BEST in the game) then i think it would only be fair if they would gain points a lot quicker. So they would catch up to the tier they belong in.
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this point system really confuses me.
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You win, you get a point, if the other team had a lot more points than you, you get extra points.
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I believe Keyvias stated they're removing that system. If I understood correctly you get 1 point per week for participating, 1 point per match win and 1 bonus point per match win if you beat a team with more points.
This means you can earn 4 victory points, 1 participation point and up to 4 underdog points per week.
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Smollett has the point system correct.
@Zill
Skirmishes don't need refs.
We just wanted to build some community guidelines into the standard tournament rules.
Any organizer can override them based on their preferences.
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Alright that's nice to know.
I'm still wanting to hear what the point of participation points are. It just forces me to do one match a week, and can just throw together whoever in order to get it, since it's win/lose. If I don't have the want or ability to play one week, I have enough to worry about points wise without adding in freebie points as well.
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At the end of the day, this system is going to reward teams that play a lot of matches. These points will largely reflect that. Theoretically if the Knights Sky Warriors completely shut out the points but every time the played the Anglean Sky Pirates they lost, people would know the ASP was the elite team.
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You're going to get rewarded for playing anyway by having the chance to earn points. You don't need freebies to make everyone feel special or "elite." This is all to get into a final tourney, not determine at the end of the season who wins, else the point of the tourney is moot.
You get team x who can play only every other week, team y who can just throw crap together every week and takes the seed for the final. They lose and deny a potentially better team a chance because they could be there more. No thanks.
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Its maximum one point per week
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"Those who cannot remember the past..."
With points given for participation and winning, but not removed for losing, it does seem that a team who enters everything and challenges everyone they can, but only win some of the time, could get more points than another team who only play occasionally but usually win.
Seems like it's possible that a team which plays often with middling results can easily pull ahead of teams that don't play as often but soundly defeat their opponents. It seems to reward participation a little more than skill. I'm not sure I'm okay with that.
Why is there this emphasis on participation for participation's sake? Paddling, Brood and a few other teams are taking the sky tournament off, but are coming back for the next season of the Cogs. This is fine. They're setting their own pace to avoid burnout. This doesn't mean they're lesser teams because of it and deserve to be treated as such by some omnipresent rankings system. I understand that organizers want to encourage more competitive play, but penalizing teams for setting a schedule that works best for them might discourage teams rather than encourage them. It actually sets a higher barrier for entry rather than a lower one, because it strongly favours teams with large player pools and/or ones willing to devote very large amounts of time to GoI.
Blech, sounds more like 'Intramural eSports' than a true competitive scene. Does everybody get a little trophy for participating? =]
Some hopefully useful perspective. Six months later people still arguing about flaws that existed in the original CeSports version of the system.
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Its maximum one point per week
So in a four week span, team x makes 2 points, and team y makes 4, not including matches. It's a lousy way to lose a seed spot if it came to that.
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Its maximum one point per week
So in a four week span, team x makes 2 points, and team y makes 4, not including matches. It's a lousy way to lose a seed spot if it came to that.
In this example a team wins one match in a month and another clan plays every week that month but unfortunately doesn't secure a win. Are you saying a 1 win team deserves the seed more than a very active team that contributes to the competitive scene every week?
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If we want the seeding to be symbotic of skill over who can throw 8 randoms into a team each week, yes.
You also give a fairly large extreme to try to make that point.
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I used your example. But generally speaking, if all teams compete fairly regularly that 1 point for week shouldn't make a difference.
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Then why bother adding it to give it the chance to make a difference where it shouldn't?
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For teams that actively participate by scrimming and competing.
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We really aren't to agree on this, so at this point I just hope it doesn't stay for the reasons I've given. We don't need freebie points to force people's participation and potentially alter seeding in a tournament that should consist of the teams who fought to be there, not the ones who showed up more often because they could.
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It's for the teams that show up every week not more often, you only get 1 per week.
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Yes, and im fairly certain this system is going to last a few weeks, of which I might not feel like playing all consecutively. Thus I would lose the chance to earn that point, and all points that any team makes that week. Either way, that one point is guaranteed to them and not I, and losing a seed to that would be pretty silly when this should be based on wins, not who can field the most people each week.
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Yes, and im fairly certain this system is going to last a few weeks, of which I might not feel like playing all consecutively. Thus I would lose the chance to earn that point, and all points that any team makes that week. Either way, that one point is guaranteed to them and not I, and losing a seed to that would be pretty silly when this should be based on wins, not who can field the most people each week.
so we're making a rulesystem which we know is not gonna last long?
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Im sure if it takes off it'll repeat itself, like seasons. X weeks till the big tourney, followed by a break and then the next season.
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how long does a season last?
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I haven't seen it in the fine print yet.
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Alrighty…. I gave this topic some time to consider all the points, and see what could be improved… That being said, please keep in mind that these are my opinions, and suggestions on how I would like to see them improved upon.
First, I’d like to discuss the “competitive TEAM” section of the glossary. It’s been said before, but I feel as though it needs repeated. If we’re doing Teams, instead of clans, there should be no max, but a min of 8 players… that way the community is not wasting time trying to schedule matches with teams that don’t have the upfront manpower to field a team. This will help focus who we can battle, and will reduce the amount of overhead you would need to manage.
Second, regarding both the participation point, and badge in the final tourney. I cannot really say that I’m a fan of either of these tbh. These kinda just devalue the all the other rewards for competing, and is kinda insulting to receive imho. The participation point will only discourage new teams from joining the system mid-season, as the points will be so high, it’d be impossible to rise up the ranks. I could see an argument for the participation badges, but I still feel that it’d be insulting if I ever received one…
Finally, I’d like to take the time to discuss the Leviathan Seasonal. First, May I ask the reason that the deadline for signups are Thursday, and not Wednesday? I feel as though that it would not allow teams the time to prepare for the match. Also, what is done in the event that both teams that are assigned to each other cannot agree on a common available time? The event would get rather boring if the same teams played each other at the same time every week, b/c that’s the only time they’re available.
All-in-all, the system hasn’t really changed much from season 1, and that concerns me a little. We’re going to be relying heavily on the league to gain the points we need to be in the tournament, and with the flexible nature of that system, I can see the potential for the 2nd season to repeat the 1st :\
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Ugh, this whole thing is a mess. They can implement some vague and yet intricate rating system for matchmaking, and yet they can't create a similar ranking system for competitive? Comon...little check mark for each team if this is a competitive game, winner gets a rank, loser doesn't. Simple.
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Shink, I think a late start would be next to impossible to rise to top regardless of a participation point or not.
Byrong, they would need to also put in some sort of verification system otherwise they would get flooded by "competitive matches." That would be needlessly complicated and hard to implement. You know what is easy, screenshot and email.
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Underdog point are how teams catch up.
I don't see how participation points are an issue if teams are active since most teams usually play some sort of competitive match per week. Missing a week and it's associated point every once and a while is unlikely to doom a team from missing the invitational.
I don't really think it matters one way or the other if participation points are given and at the very least encourages, you know, participation.
Participation badges on the other hand, I think I could agree on removing.
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Shink, I think a late start would be next to impossible to rise to top regardless of a participation point or not.
and this is the crux of the problem... We all know Muse wants to motivate competitive teams to play more competitive matches. To this point, they've kept everything flexible, and open to any and all teams whenever they start up. However... Participation points is simply going to discourage new teams from playing, and decrease the amount of competitive matches that could have happened in the season. If it's going to be too difficult for a new team created mid-season, then stop hiding it in the points, and make a rule that makes new teams wait until the next season to compete...
We will never agree on participation points guys. I understand that, and will agree to disagree... I'm simply concerned with what I see to be a flaw in the system
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Your lack of confidence amuses me Shink.
If the system fails then we have learned not to use it anymore.
Most of the time you just need to try things out.
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Ugh, this whole thing is a mess. They can implement some vague and yet intricate rating system for matchmaking, and yet they can't create a similar ranking system for competitive? Comon...little check mark for each team if this is a competitive game, winner gets a rank, loser doesn't. Simple.
Byron, while I certainly agree that the system as proposed is less than ideal and that we would be much better off with some kind of a integrated competitive ranking system, I might suggest that you guys just start recording all of your competitive games and practices if you don't already. I'm fairly certain that such recordings, or screenshots of them, could be used as proof for submitting points. And it's really something competitive teams should do anyhow, as having a library of recordings for matches and practices is invaluable for strategizing.
Again, not an ideal solution, but just getting into the habit of keeping these sorts of records makes it much less likely you'll forgot to snap a screenshot at the end of an intense competitive match. And given Muse's statements that they won't create any formal, integrated competitive ranking system anytime soon, it seems like we may have to accept the fact that this onus is shifted onto the player.
If you guys would like some advice on software for rendering and recording, along with settings, hit me up on Steam. I really like Dxtory, which causes only the slightest performance hit on my three year-old gaming laptop.
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Your lack of confidence amuses me Shink.
If the system fails then we have learned not to use it anymore.
Most of the time you just need to try things out.
It's not really a lack of confidence... It's more of a lack of enthusiasm... I'm not particularly excited for the upcoming season, as everything is relying on this league system that feels tacked on rather than integrated into the new competitive scene... I shouldn't be bored when I think of the competitive scene :\
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dont worry, if it sucks then we bail out and the system will crumble down until its broken.
then those guys who created this have to find a new solution to repay our lost time and progress as it is forever lost in a tornado of darknes.
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Your lack of confidence amuses me Shink.
If the system fails then we have learned not to use it anymore.
Most of the time you just need to try things out.
It's not really a lack of confidence... It's more of a lack of enthusiasm... I'm not particularly excited for the upcoming season, as everything is relying on this league system that feels tacked on rather than integrated into the new competitive scene... I shouldn't be bored when I think of the competitive scene :\
This was one of my first feelings as well...bored, it feels like work.
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A screenshot and an email is too much work?
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yes.
It won't stay at 1 screenshot. I think that they will go further and get to the point that you also need confirmation of the enemy team, to verify that it was a competitive match and not a pub match. meaning you need to do alot more. also you need to plan a time to fight other people which also takes time to do to manage a suiteable time for your team and the enemy team, especially when you're a international clan. you need to keep track that you are not fighting the same guys twice and have to wait when other clans have time. I'll bet everyone wants to fight the museosaurs and ducks first because everyone knows them. This means that popularity plays a role in my opinion plays a big role in this system. I do not like the idea that you need to make a promise with another clan that might end wrong and you gain no points at all because they couldnt make it before the end of the week. In fact, why would you change a system that already worked. meaning that the cogs system isn't a bad idea to use for this kind of thing. you just need to expand the cogs a bit so instead of 1 ladder, you will have 2 that go towards a center cog (just ask me about it and ill explain it in detail for you). using a point system isnt really making things better because there is no fun in it. most of the clans want to win and promote the game so more people will play it. streaming matches is a good way to promote the game, but now we have to make appointments for those matches and they will not be on a regular timebase. This means that you won't get alot of viewers because nobody is going to stay on a stream 24/7 just to watch 1 match each day. having these matches on a scheduled time is a better way to do it. you might complain about timezones then but hey ever heard of regions? you just make an EU cogs and a USA cogs, problem solved. eventually all the teams will fight eachotehr at the end season final. because these matches all will be on a scheduled time, you will have more viewers and thus you can efficiently promote the game. I'm not saying the pointsystem is rubbish, I just notify you that in my opinion it's not the best idea ever.
we play games to have fun and laugh. we want to get the interest of new people and let them get curious and amazed by this game. showing them the crazy things we do is a great way to reach the minds of others.
we're not here for political paperwork, not all of us check the cloud behavior on every map sammy.
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Theoretically a team that played in Cogs and a tournament each week (if the tournament supported it) would fulfill their quota for points. It's three wins a week however you manage it so theoretically a team could get all their points from organized events.
I used to love scrimmaging though: honestly playing against really good teams and clans was the only way I could truly feel prepared for cogs or other major events and it allowed me to use builds or ideas that I wouldn't want to try on the fly in cogs.
I'm not sure if the Sunday rumble is supporting the system, but if it did any team that played in cogs and the rumble might already have enough points for the weekly limit and a team that did one practice scrim, cogs and the rumble every week assuming they were relatively successful would likely reach their point quotas on a regular basis.
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It won't stay at 1 screenshot. I think that they will go further and get to the point that you also need confirmation of the enemy team, to verify that it was a competitive match and not a pub match.
It stayed at one throughout last season. I'd imagine if a team was falsifying records they would get called out pretty quickly.
Everything after that is completely irrelevant. Of course clans would have to put in the work organizing scrims, do you expect Muse to do that? Cogs and all other tournaments are not by any stretch of the imagination being replaced by this. In fact, this system is in some ways relying on them as a focal point for matches to be had. I'm not sure if you understand the point system.
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It won't stay at 1 screenshot. I think that they will go further and get to the point that you also need confirmation of the enemy team, to verify that it was a competitive match and not a pub match.
It stayed at one throughout last season. I'd imagine if a team was falsifying records they would get called out pretty quickly.
Everything after that is completely irrelevant. Of course clans would have to put in the work organizing scrims, do you expect Muse to do that? Cogs and all other tournaments are not by any stretch of the imagination being replaced by this. In fact, this system is in some ways relying on them as a focal point for matches to be had. I'm not sure if you understand the point system.
I understand the point system but in my opinion it is not a strong system. well you made a system that relies on other systems so you confirmed it's not a strong system at all.
"In fact, this system is in some ways relying on them as a focal point for matches to be had."
in my opinion were better off letting this system work together with the cogs and sunday rumbles.
falsifying information is possible because more clans are being made out of nowhere. i do not expect muse to do all the work for us, but at least we should get a scheduled time for matchess so we can put it on video.
what you forgot about 1 thing is that there has to be a referee watching the match, having only 1 refferee won't be 24/7 online.
if we use pre-scheduled matches for all teams each week then we are going to profit from 3 things:
-solid time frame.
if the times are known way before the fight then you can be 100% sure the other team is there too.
-refferees.
at scheduled events there are always refferees available.
-promoting the game with social media such as twitch.
scheduled events such as cogs or sunday rumbles are always streamed and placed on youtube. with the stream you can get more people interested in the game, which will mean that they will buy the game and play it themselves.
just to keep it short.
the point system isnt a bad idea, but maybe we can change it a bit so we have 3 scheduled events in a week where every team can fight their game for a point. (Points of Icarus events?)
an example:
you fight 1 game at each event that would be a best out of 3 match, the winner gets 1 point. just as simple as that.
using this method you get 100% valid information of matches, 100% more game promoting and 50% better matches (because some teams keep the boring playstyles and some don't).
I hope this answers your question sammy.
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If it's part of Cogs and the Rumble, great, if the organizers are all for that kind of work. I'm just not interested in having to arrange additional scrims during the week, it's tedious, we don't have the time, and I'm just not interested. That's part of our issue with last season. The Gents had what 3 points? And in reality was probably closer to the twenties... why? Because we just didn't care enough, too much stress to worry about some overly complicated system.
I get that some people don't feel that way, but this is how I feel, not here for paperwork sorry. Sammy, you made a Saturday event that I immediately signed up for. Whatever differences the Gents and Ducks have I was immediately in, because IT WAS SIMPLE. That's why I proposed a ladder system for in-game. Don't give me that too much coding jargon, they just added an intricate rating system for matches, you're telling me you can't make a simple ladder?
I think the issue is lately Muse is trying to make things grand. We ask for a simple fjords and dunes spawn fix, we get this overly-complicated epic spawn re-work. We want a simple competitive system, they write a document that could rival a bill of Congress. Were not looking for some Sistine Chapel of ladders here, but a simple one should be able to integrate.
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Shink, I think a late start would be next to impossible to rise to top regardless of a participation point or not.
Byrong, they would need to also put in some sort of verification system otherwise they would get flooded by "competitive matches." That would be needlessly complicated and hard to implement. You know what is easy, screenshot and email.
Not really, create a ladder, register your team, team gets accepted and authenticated. Only that team gets access. And worst case, so what if a bunch of teams registered? One of two things would happen: there would be an epic new interest in the competitive scene, or those registered teams would quickly fall apart, never compete, and never accrue points to advance. Or just get disabled after a time-out.
Again, they can develop a working rating/matchmaking system, they can develop a bounty hunter ladder, but developing a working functional competitive ladder is out of reach? Comon... Any serious game with an e-sport has a functional ladder, and as I said it doesn't have to be an overly thought out too intricate, too grand for it's own good ladder. Simply, and functional.
I'd much rather have them use their resources on that then some silly competitive rules and silly spawn fix that isn't a fix.
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I agree with Byron.
things are being made too complicated.
keeping it simple seems to be tricky for everyone.
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why dont we just invite all teams to a seasonal tournament, those who can make it signs up, those who can't dont sign up.
thats simple lol
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I understand the point system but in my opinion it is not a strong system. well you made a system that relies on other systems so you confirmed it's not a strong system at all.
"In fact, this system is in some ways relying on them as a focal point for matches to be had."
in my opinion were better off letting this system work together with the cogs and sunday rumbles.
That is exactly what it does, works with other events. Imagine this scenario. The Didgeridoo schedules one scrimmage in the week and wins that, one point. Then they play a Saturday Cogs match which they win, bringing them to two points. Then they participate in a SR and win their first match but get knocked out in their second giving them their third point.
All the point system is doing is recognizing competitive wins across a wide spectrum of events ranging from traditional organized events as well as organized scrimmages.
falsifying information is possible because more clans are being made out of nowhere.
I can't imagine a clan not getting held responsible by other clans. I would suggest making the screenshots public or at least accessible.
i do not expect muse to do all the work for us, but at least we should get a scheduled time for matchess so we can put it on video.
Saturday and Sunday events will still completely exist.
what you forgot about 1 thing is that there has to be a referee watching the match, having only 1 refferee won't be 24/7 online.
Keyvias said on page three of this thread "Skirmishes don't need refs."
if we use pre-scheduled matches for all teams each week then we are going to profit from 3 things:
-solid time frame.
if the times are known way before the fight then you can be 100% sure the other team is there too.
-refferees.
at scheduled events there are always refferees available.
-promoting the game with social media such as twitch.
scheduled events such as cogs or sunday rumbles are always streamed and placed on youtube. with the stream you can get more people interested in the game, which will mean that they will buy the game and play it themselves.
All of these will continue to happen as long as people continue to schedule weekend events.
just to keep it short.
the point system isnt a bad idea, but maybe we can change it a bit so we have 3 scheduled events in a week where every team can fight their game for a point. (Points of Icarus events?)
an example:
you fight 1 game at each event that would be a best out of 3 match, the winner gets 1 point. just as simple as that.
using this method you get 100% valid information of matches, 100% more game promoting and 50% better matches (because some teams keep the boring playstyles and some don't).
I hope this answers your question sammy.
All of that is great and is in no ways contrary to what has been proposed.
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Byron, if you have a PrtScn button and gmail it should be less than thirty seconds to do "paperwork." Just hit the PrtScn button at the end of match. Compose an email, hit Ctrl+V and title the email. How on Earth is that too much? Now I would be all for matches that are recorded as part of the events to be able to be added to the scoreboard automatically with just the TO saying "hey muse, here's the points and stream." However, not all matches are streamed and happen Saturday and Sunday afternoon.
My Saturday event was designed to be an event to compliment this "complicated system" as it was just gathering some groups together for scrims that would have counted for points if the system had been in place. This point system doesn't stop any of these events, it simply rewards their wins and rewards games outside of these events.
Also I think it is worth mention, the top ten teams get into the invitational and then two teams are voted in. Its hardly restrictive.
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You can have a regularly scheduled scrim that both teams agree to show up to every week. Cake and the Paddling used to meet once a week for a friendly scrimmage that was always loads of fun. It was a great chance to give opportunities for our newer competitive players to get experience as well as try out new builds.
I think it would be awesome if refs or tournament organizers submitted screenshots, that probably would make a lot of people happier.
Also Byron never forget the power of delegation. Perhaps there's a crew member who's itching for the chance to prove their awesomeness and reliability by being the official screenshot taker and submitter.
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My mind is completely boggled by some of the comments here. This system is about as simple as it gets.
Step 1. Play matches throughout the week with other competitive teams. (<- please note, this is what the entire system is trying to encourage. more competitive play)
Step 2. Take a screen shot of the results of the match (Pro tip: Steam's screenshot button is F12)
Step 3. Using the power of the interwebs, e-fax it to Muse.
Step 4. Profit
As an experiment, I started a timer, took a screenshot and emailed it to myself. It took slightly under 17 seconds. If that's too difficult for someone to manage then I'm not sure how you handle walking all the way to the bathroom before making your morning ablutions.
The player ranking stuff Muse implemented is fairly straightforward code wise, they already kept track of most of that for achievements. Any clan tracking would have to first include in-game clan creation and then some crazy form of tracking which honestly isn't worth anyone's time since the competitive scene is such a small portion of the player base.
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Coming from someone who doesn't play competitively i agree the tournament systems are being made too complicated. I read basically everything on the forums and i have no idea how they work, and everywhere i see people disagreeing about how they should work. So it is probably best to aim for classically simple tournaments.
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I don't think it's overly complicated, I think it's just being made to sound like that and the 18 page rule sheet likely isn't helping much.
Maybe Muse should put out a shortened version with the main points and link to the long form document for those that are curious about the nitty gritty.
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1. Groups of people make a team.
2. Whenever and wherever two teams play, they send a screenshot to Muse detailing the victor.
3. Victory is a point, if the winning team was far behind in the points the losing team an extra point.
4. Teams can max out 4 points a week not including extra points.
5. At the end of the season 10 teams play in a tournament.
6. 2 additional teams are voted into the tournament.
And that is functionally it people. What is complicated?
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As an experiment, I started a timer, took a screenshot and emailed it to myself. It took slightly under 17 seconds. If that's too difficult for someone to manage then I'm not sure how you handle walking all the way to the bathroom before making your morning ablutions.
lol
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1. Groups of people make a team.
2. Whenever and wherever two teams play, they send a screenshot to Muse detailing the victor.
3. Victory is a point, if the winning team was far behind in the points the losing team an extra point.
4. Teams can max out 4 points a week not including extra points.
5. At the end of the season 10 teams play in a tournament.
6. 2 additional teams are voted into the tournament.
And that is functionally it people. What is complicated?
the team should have an official team leader like you and I for our respective teams. that leader or coordinator if he doesnt partake, is responsible for getting the screenshot sent. too many people with contact to the management quickly gets confusing imo.