Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Captain Smollett on March 12, 2013, 02:22:07 am

Title: Buff the Junker
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 12, 2013, 02:22:07 am
So I've brought up improving the junker casually to players over the past few months, and it seems that there are pretty divided opinions on the strength of the Junker.  However after substantial flight time in all ships, I've come to the conclusion that the Junker; though certainly not terrible, doesn't stand out enough in any role or contain superiority in any capability to truly be a competitive ship. 

Now if you'll please forgive me for the wall of text, allow me to present my case.

Junker strengths:

Small hull area - The Junker has the second smallest hull in the game, making the slender profile tough to hit at range for gunners not accustomed to the projectile drop of their weapons.

Good Armor - Though only slightly greater than the Pyramidion, at 700, the Junker has the second highest armor in the game

Weaponry - The Junker has 5 light weapons, one more than the Pyra and second only to the Galleon in overall weapon mounts

Blind spots - As far as weapon blind spots go, due to the large number of guns and the short hull, the Junker has one of the smallest, with only a small area behind the ship that isn't in fire arc of a gun.

The trifecta - This is the single greatest advantage of the junker.  With a very well crewed and piloted ship loaded with wide swinging weapons, the Junker can get three light weapons on target.  This however can be very risky since you'll either be taking a man off the helm or the hull, either of which can quickly prove fatal to a Junker.

Large balloon - With a large balloon and a small hull, a crafty pilot can drop below his opponent in close quarters to block potentially fatal shots from shattering him to pieces

Junker weaknesses:

Large balloon - The Junker has a giant balloon.  Any time I'm gunning against a Junker with a carronade or lumberjack, a smile quickly comes to my lips.  The giant target ensures that my opponent will spend the entire match without an inflated balloon.  Furthermore, that small hull beneath the large balloon makes it really difficult for the Junker to shoot at targets above it.  The Junker is too slow to run away, and incapable of shooting up at something close by and above it.  Unless their teammate saves them, the Junker will have a hell of a time escaping a balloon popping death.

Hull health - The Junker only has 500 hull?!  This is the least in the game.  This means that if the armor goes down, which inevitably happens in any fight, the Junker only needs to be sneezed at to die.  For example, a charged heavy flak shot will nearly one shot a Junker without armor.  Furthermore, since the Junker has 700 armor, it takes longer for it to be rebuilt, making the probability of it's demise even greater.

Junker speed - The Junker is the slowest ship in the game.  This really can make a huge difference in a fight.  When capping points, or rejoining a fight after a death (something that happens often in a Junker) seconds can mean the difference between saving a teammate or arriving just after his death into a two on one.

Difficult to crew - I will never take a junker into combat with an AI engineer.  Never.  For a ship with a small hull, the components are spread out everywhere.  To even have a chance against a skilled opponent requires some really high level crew tricks including maintaining the hull from the front ramp of the ship, and the captain maintaining his own balloon.  God forbid the turning engines break.  Since you can't ever afford to have someone off the hull (500 hull health...) you'll need you're gungineer or captain to go up and fix them.  This either leaves you a gun down, or no one to turn the ship to bring weapons to bear on your opponent for quite a while, keeping the Junker debilitated far longer than other ships.

Difficult to crew - This is worth mentioning twice, since I spend the beginning of most of my Junker matches training players (even experienced ones) the ins and outs.  This still doesn't always keep my engineers off all the shiny guns, and in position.  Successful flying of the Junker requires constant and complicated crew movements, which in the heat of combat often fall apart, leaving guns unmanned or even more commonly our fragile hull not being looked after.

Broadside weapon mounts - This is probably the biggest weakness of the Junker.  Though it might not seem to be a large disadvantage having the primary weapons on the broadside of the ship, it makes a huge difference in combat.  This is due to the fact that a ship with forward facing weapons is able to dictate the range at which combat takes place.  Every weapon has its optimal range.  When sparring in a ship like a Pyra, you can keep your guns in a more favorable range than your opponents, you can skirt at the edge of combat to initiate, close in to increase accuracy if you gain an advantage, or increase distance if it seems your opponent has gotten the upper hand.  Furthermore you can fly into a fight guns blazing and run away with your bullets flying and generally travel to any location while keeping your opponent under fire.  The Junker however can only fire one light weapon at an opponent when traveling, furthermore when engaged in a broadside engagement you cannot flee.  The Junker is far to slow to go anywhere, and if it turns to move, it will lose half of its firepower.  You're more or less forced to duke it out, on an opponents terms and range, against ships with equal or greater firepower, and greater health; likely leading to that wimpy hull exploding.  The other disadvantage of engaging in a broadside engagement is that it exposes your engines.  When facing against a manticore in most ships, I can confidently eat a volley or two head on, knowing that at worst I'll lose my guns and some armor, however the Junker, due to the small hull, large balloon and broadside engagement. will be completely disabled, losing all engines, guns and eventually even the balloon from the weapons AOE.

Ship to ship comparisons - A junker fairs pretty well against a squid, a goldfish is too different to really be compared and anything can kill a Spire, however I think the case for buffing the Junker really can be made by comparing it to two of the most popular ships; the Galleon and the Pyramidion.

Junker vs Galleon - When it comes down to it, these are similar ships in concept, both with high armor, and a lot of guns on the broadsides, but the Junker is outmatched in almost every way.  The Galleon is faster, has more guns, has bigger guns, is easier to engineer, has more armor and more hull.  The Galleon excels at ranged combat, and the Junker is extremely poor at closing in on an opponent.  In a one on one engagement, the Galleon simply needs to point and shoot.  It will destroy the Junker often before it is in range to fight.  The Junker's best chance is to engage at mercury range, however the galleon can simply bring it's own mercury.  If it's brought a lumberjack as well, the Junker will not be mercing for long.  If the Junker manages to close, it's likely to find itself in the aforementioned manticore death.

Junker vs Pyramidion - This I think is the ultimate argument for why the Junker needs to be buffed.  Though both ships are designed to fight with two light weapons firing at an opponent, the Pyramidion in my opinion, is superior in almost every way.  The Pyramidion only has a hair less armor than the Junker at 650 however it has 800 hull.  The Pyra is significantly faster.  The Pyra has an armored balloon, difficult to hit head on.  The Pyra is easy to engineer, with it's protected engines nearby the hull all being able to be repaired in seconds and it's balloon a quick turn away from a secondary engineer.  The Pyra has two forward facing guns and two broadside guns giving it a wide range of combat options.  The Pyra excels at ramming with it's hardy hull and forward facing weapons while the Junker excels at dying to rams.  All this taken into consideration, an equally crewed Pyra and Junker is a huge mismatch.  If a Pyra charges head on at a Junker, and both crews hit all their shots and make all their repairs.  The Pyra will win simply due to having greater health, this is ridiculous considering all of its other advantages.

The Junker is capable of filling a few roles relatively well.  It can bring a variety of weapons with each side purposed for different types of combat but a Pyra and a Galleon can do it better. It can snipe, but a Galleon and a Pyra do it better.  It can bring 3 guns to bear, but a Galleon does it much better.  It can tank, but a Pyra and a Galleon do it better.  The Junker may have a small hull but when facing broadside, the target is about the same size as a the bow of a Pyra.

Now, I know what you're going to say.  "I fly a Junker all the time and I dominate with it."  This I'm sure is true. I consider myself a capable captain, and I've killed every ship and every level of pilot with a Junker. However at the end of the day you really have to ask yourself, why not just bring a Pyra/Galleon, because, although capable, there is nothing that a Junker is superior at.  If you watched the Fjords tournament, you likely saw a lot of Pyras, Goldfish and Galleons in use.  I'd love to see the day when every ship is considered competitive and high level play includes every ship in use equally.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So that's my argument, here's my proposal:

Increase speed and maneuverability - As a small ship, the Junker should be faster than the Galleon and have quick acceleration.  Give it at least a 25% boost to speed and acceleration so it can quickly join the fight and have a chance at pursuing fleeing opponents.

Increase it's hull  - The Junker is a broadside fighting ship.  It can't choose it's engagements  so it needs to be able to tank in order to at least have a chance to win the ones it's in.  Option A - Increase armor by 100 and increase hull by 200.  This will make the Junker at least have a fighting chance in a 1v1 against a Pyra giving it 800/700 vs the Pyras 650/800.  Option B - This I think is the more interesting option but a bit tougher to balance.  Make the Junker the reverse Goldfish by keeping it's hull low but giving it plus 250 Armor.  The Junker would then have 950/500 making it important for opponents to keep fire focused on the Junker so that it doesn't simply repair and return unscathed.  It would still be a quick kill without armor though and would make the game really interesting tactically since a team may be forced to make a decision between taking more armor breaking weapons to kill the Junker or more explosive weapons to kill it's teammate.

If you've made it this far into this post, let me sincerely thank you for reading it, since a lot of thought and time went into it.

I encourage you to please comment on this.  I know we have a lot of active forum members with strong and informed opinions and I'd honestly like to hear all of them.  I don't claim to know everything there is about the Junker and I'd love to hear some other opinions on this matter.


Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Helmic on March 12, 2013, 02:51:56 am
Don't forget that the Pyramidion can bring all three guns to bear better than the Junker too.   You don't even have to move your main engineer too far away from the hull, just turn around and whack it during reloads.  It even gives you a smaller profile for your opponent to retaliate with, sparing your enginers should a Hwacha volley get off.  It's my favorite way of dealing with Galleons, get close above and behind them and let loose.

I can't disagree about its lack of purpose, it's always seemed like an inferior Galleon to me.  I can't really speak for the specific recommendations, but I can certainly agree that it needs something more to make it stand out.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Lord Dick Tim on March 12, 2013, 02:58:06 am
First and foremost, you get a salute for this post.  The Junker is my favorite ship, it is the Cloud Whaler, yet I rarely get an opportunity to fly her.

I agree, something needs doing about the Junker, and I like all the ideas that you have presented.  I'm unsure how the suggested changes would effect the greater meta, I'd have to do some deep thinking and consider rates of fire, repair times, ect ect. 

One thing I am sure about is the meta changes dramatically depending on the kind of match thats being played, 2v2 3v3 or 4v4.  In a 3v3 the target rich enviroment and multible threats from all angles makes a Junker a power house and can quickly be the Grim Reaper of a battlefield, shredding armor and hulls as it wades into combat.  But in 2v2, the odds are really stacked against it's survivability.  I doubt we will even see one being used in the Cogs unless it is as a full merc long range support, but as stated, the Pyramidion can do this better.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Helmic on March 12, 2013, 03:04:34 am
First and foremost, you get a salute for this post.  The Junker is my favorite ship, it is the Cloud Whaler, yet I rarely get an opportunity to fly her.

I agree, something needs doing about the Junker, and I like all the ideas that you have presented.  I'm unsure how the suggested changes would effect the greater meta, I'd have to do some deep thinking and consider rates of fire, repair times, ect ect. 

One thing I am sure about is the meta changes dramatically depending on the kind of match thats being played, 2v2 3v3 or 4v4.  In a 3v3 the target rich enviroment and multible threats from all angles makes a Junker a power house and can quickly be the Grim Reaper of a battlefield, shredding armor and hulls as it wades into combat.  But in 2v2, the odds are really stacked against it's survivability.  I doubt we will even see one being used in the Cogs unless it is as a full merc long range support, but as stated, the Pyramidion can do this better.

I don't get an opportunity to play 3v3 that much, but how exactly does that work to the Junker's strengths in a way that you can't do with a Galleon?  I've had five of six guns blaring on a Galleon before for some crazy burst and disable, and while there is more variety in the light weapons they're generally weaker.  I can't imagine their better weapon arcs can overcome the Galleon's superior speed and sheer firepower.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Lord Dick Tim on March 12, 2013, 03:14:02 am
Turning believe it or not, it's about the turning.  The Galleon is just easier to avoid in this situaiton, or to put another target between you and it.  It's size makes it an always visible target on the battlefield that can rarely suprise or ambush.  The Junker still has this to its strength.
Perhaps it is really just me, but I find the Junker in a 3v3, with the wider guns arcs and smaller profile, a much more dangerous ship then in 2v2.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Pickle on March 12, 2013, 04:39:15 am
The Junker is a average-poor close quarters ship in the hands of the average player, but by far the best long-range sniper platform of any ship in the game (double Mercs having a far greater range and accuracy than the Heavy Flak broadside of a Galleon).  In theory, the Pyra should be the equal as a sniper platform but the Junker has a better layout for crewing. See the Junker Fight Club thread for how this works if you've not tried using the Junker this way.

The Junker does work well with an AI crew, it's far superior to the Pyra in this respect - the Pyra having the worst layout for AI.  On a short-handed match with AI crews I'd take either the Junker or a Goldfish over the other ships.  The AI crew is particularly good on the Junker when maneouvering with Hydrogen and Chute Vent at close quarters.  If you want to take a Junker into the heat of the battle, these two tools are essential.

In an average match the only ship that causes me concern when flying a Junker is the Pyra due to it's speed and forward facing guns, I know that against average crews I can take out any ship on the map with the Junker if my opponents allow me to play the match to my own terms.  In a premier team match, the Junker still has it's place but you need a coordinated team that matches the skills of the opposition.

There was a discussion on the old forum about buffing the Junker, and I think my choice remains the same - if the Junker gets a buff my preference is for a speed buff to match the speed of the Galleon.  If not speed, then a minor arnour buff.


There are some comments in the opening post that don't make sense to me.. the one about armour/hull health.  It doesn't matter how long it takes to repair the armour, as long as there is some armour it's protecting the hull.  The comment about Junker vs. Galleon and range, the Mercury has the longest effective range of any weapon, and the Junker can bear two onto a target whilst the Galleon can bear one.  It's not unusual to be in a long-range match with a Galleon with their Heavy Flaks bursting black smoke 50 yards short of your Junker, whilst you're scoring effective hits against specific components on the Galleon.  A Junker can close on a Galleon with the front gun bearing on the target, whilst a Galleon cannot close whilst training a gun onto target, except at very oblique angles of approach.

I've introduced several players to the Junker as a long-range sniper after it was introduced to me, and about half are struck by how effective it is and stick with it for several matches.  Admittedly it's most effective against Captains that don't appreciate it in that role and are left three map squares away wondering, "WTF is happening to my armour/hull?"  Any sensible opposing team will get together and rush a long-range Junker, trying for a 2v1 CQB where the sniper Junker is vulnerable without team support.



----
The Gameplay sedction of the GOIO website still describes the Junker as having a stern-chaser light mount to deter pursuers.  That would be an even better buff than either speed or armour.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 12, 2013, 09:22:40 am
The Gameplay sedction of the GOIO website still describes the Junker as having a stern-chaser light mount to deter pursuers.  That would be an even better buff than either speed or armour.

That would actually help a lot when countering carronade Squids.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Jinrai on March 12, 2013, 12:41:15 pm
I agree completely with this post, I think the Junker would be way more viable with some extra speed/manouverability.
Saluted OP for the carefully constructed theory he layed down here. Agree with Hubert on the fact that the Junker has more extreme range
potentiality than the Galleon, but the Galleon has the advantage on long/mid range.
Never thought of a mercury setup on a Junker, I'm certainly going to try that out soon.

Thanks for this great discussion :)
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Cpt. Yami on March 12, 2013, 01:17:27 pm
I agree with you wholeheartedly. The Junker was the first ship I ever flew, and it has been my favourite ship since the beta. That being said, it does suck compared to other ships.

The main reason being the fact they swapped the hull and armor around. It used to have 700 hull and 500 armor, but they swapped it for some reason and it has suffered ever since. Having 700 armor really isn´t that much since the tradeoff is having a weaker hull on a ship which isn´t that impressively fast compared to others. Let´s take for example a junker facing a galleon. In most instances other ships would have the speed needed to fully or partially dodge a dual flak broadside, giving your engineer(s) ample time to rebuild the hull. The junker however does not. Once its hull is down, you better have either hydrogen of chute vent equipped, because that is the only way to survive the oncoming onslaught. 700 armor goes down in 3 seconds because every decent captain will have atleast 1 light flak or other explosive dmg weapon aboard his-her ship. Any ship, not just the galleon as I used as an example. And I have used double merc loadout before, and it does work IF you have either people who can use them. Not necessarily though, AI are good shots too. But in 2v2 and 3v3 a duo merc loadout only works effective if you're flying with some capable allies. Else you'll just sit by the sidelines taking potshots at enemy airships which are anihilating your friends. And I doubt that Muse intended this ship just to be a sniper platform.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 12, 2013, 02:25:01 pm
First and foremost thank you to everyone for reading and replying to this.  It's always good to hear from the community.

The Junker is a average-poor close quarters ship in the hands of the average player, but by far the best long-range sniper platform of any ship in the game (double Mercs having a far greater range and accuracy than the Heavy Flak broadside of a Galleon).  In theory, the Pyra should be the equal as a sniper platform but the Junker has a better layout for crewing. See the Junker Fight Club thread for how this works if you've not tried using the Junker this way.


The Junker does work well with an AI crew, it's far superior to the Pyra in this respect - the Pyra having the worst layout for AI.  On a short-handed match with AI crews I'd take either the Junker or a Goldfish over the other ships.  The AI crew is particularly good on the Junker when maneouvering with Hydrogen and Chute Vent at close quarters.  If you want to take a Junker into the heat of the battle, these two tools are essential.

In an average match the only ship that causes me concern when flying a Junker is the Pyra due to it's speed and forward facing guns, I know that against average crews I can take out any ship on the map with the Junker if my opponents allow me to play the match to my own terms.  In a premier team match, the Junker still has it's place but you need a coordinated team that matches the skills of the opposition.

There was a discussion on the old forum about buffing the Junker, and I think my choice remains the same - if the Junker gets a buff my preference is for a speed buff to match the speed of the Galleon.  If not speed, then a minor arnour buff.


There are some comments in the opening post that don't make sense to me.. the one about armour/hull health.  It doesn't matter how long it takes to repair the armour, as long as there is some armour it's protecting the hull.  The comment about Junker vs. Galleon and range, the Mercury has the longest effective range of any weapon, and the Junker can bear two onto a target whilst the Galleon can bear one.  It's not unusual to be in a long-range match with a Galleon with their Heavy Flaks bursting black smoke 50 yards short of your Junker, whilst you're scoring effective hits against specific components on the Galleon.  A Junker can close on a Galleon with the front gun bearing on the target, whilst a Galleon cannot close whilst training a gun onto target, except at very oblique angles of approach.

I've introduced several players to the Junker as a long-range sniper after it was introduced to me, and about half are struck by how effective it is and stick with it for several matches.  Admittedly it's most effective against Captains that don't appreciate it in that role and are left three map squares away wondering, "WTF is happening to my armour/hull?"  Any sensible opposing team will get together and rush a long-range Junker, trying for a 2v1 CQB where the sniper Junker is vulnerable without team support.



----


Hubert, while I agree with you that the Junker makes a good sniping platform. I truly believe that the Pyra is superior at this role.  Duel merc on the front of a Pyra allow much more versatility in combat.  If an enemy approaches the Pyra, it can back peddle keeping the enemy out of range.  If the enemy closes, the Pyra can fly forward, pass the enemy and then fly backwards to its teammate all while maintaining fire and positional advantage.  A Junker can't reposition and is forced to make a turn and try to duke it out. 

I suppose I should clarify my statement on not taking an AI crew on the Junker.  I'll almost never take any ship into combat without at least one main engineer.  But with a Junker I won't take it into combat without two.  The reason for this is that on a Pyra, Galleon, Goldfish etc, one human can do a significant amount of engineering on their own and the AI does a good job running around where that human isn't.  On a Junker however the human has to stay on the hull and the AI get's a bit lost.  It will climb all the way to the top to fix the balloon and go all the way to the bottom of the junker to fix the rear engine.  This means that frequently the AI isn't even in the part of the ship you need them to be in at all.  On a Pyra I just set them to gun and flip on F3 every time I need them to hit the balloon, then switch them right back.  Furthermore with so many guns on a Junker both enemies are often within arc.  It's really difficult to get the AI to shoot at the one you want when on a Junker.  Other ships you just turn your ship out of arc of the second opponent.

As far as armor times, I'm specifically talking about rebuild time.  When armor breaks it takes different amounts of time to rebuild depending on the overall max armor.  For example a squid takes about 3 seconds to rebuild and a goldfish takes about 4.  The higher the max armor the longer the rebuild.

As far as a sniping match against a galleon goes, it's true that you'll outmatch a galleon with just Flaks over really long range however the Medium sniper weapon is the Lumberjack, not the Flak.  A good gunner can hit clear across the map with a Lumberjack.  For proof of this watch the second Paddling vs Gentlemen match on the Fjords.  The Gentlemen hit the very first Lumberjack shot clear across the map hitting squash as soon as the match began.  The Junker is far more susceptible to this than the Pyra due to its significantly larger balloon.

Anyways thanks again for the replies.  I'd love to hear from even more of the community on this issue.   Maybe this will gain enough prominence for Muse to see it and perhaps eventually buff the Junker into competitive use.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on March 12, 2013, 02:32:38 pm
If im not mistaken, the Hull/Armor values changed with 1.1.4, as well as the speed. (I could be wrong though and need to look at numbers again.) It used to be 200/800 and now its 400/700, which is technically a buff. I was also under the impression that the Spire was slower than a Junker. Apart from the blueprints, I dont really look that hard into numbers and go by "feel."

Aside from all that, here are some things that I keep in mind with my Junker.

1. If the armor breaks, you are 95% going to die, and that is usually because of the hull placement vs where your closest engie is.

2. Putting mercs on anything but the front mount is wrong, in my opinion. The arc is way small, so flanking it is pretty simple to do. The only reason i think it works is that people ignore it too long and your teammate nabs the kill while the armor is breaking. Again, opinion.

3. Its a tank. Yes, your guns break like they are made of chinese metal, but if you have an engie camping the hull and the pilot is keeping good eyes on his balloon, you can work through the damage you are going to take. I always plan for my junker to have no guns or engines working after a fight. But i'll still be alive, tanking dps.

These are just from my experiences. Its honestly hard to say what a Junker needs. I think its the design that holds it back from being a "meta" ship. Its a jack of all trades kind of experience thats never going to be the "best" at one thing. Buffing it too much could lead to it turning into this monster of a thing that is "best" at everything. Ive done some crazy stuff with the current Junker too.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Sgt. Spoon on March 12, 2013, 02:41:47 pm
Fun fact: The Junker was the first ship to be overpowered in GoIO
The more you know~
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Squash on March 12, 2013, 05:58:56 pm
An intelligent buff would be improving number values, making the junker faster, and/or improving its permahull. In the spirit of the junker i'd think the permahull should be upgraded rather than the armor.

A silly buff that I think would be great would be decreasing its hull armour but radically increasing its permahull to have more than the galleon. I think it'd be a significant buff and would work well with the Junker character.

A really terrible idea buff which I would love is changing its gun layout. Why should it be symmetrical? It's a Junker. What if you replaced the two light guns on the right side with a single medium gun?
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Sgt. Spoon on March 12, 2013, 06:26:54 pm
A really terrible idea buff which I would love is changing its gun layout. Why should it be symmetrical? It's a Junker. What if you replaced the two light guns on the right side with a single medium gun?

why does that idea sound so cool
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 12, 2013, 06:29:38 pm
A really terrible idea buff which I would love is changing its gun layout. Why should it be symmetrical? It's a Junker. What if you replaced the two light guns on the right side with a single medium gun?

why does that idea sound so cool

It'd look ridiculously grotesque. Maybe you should do one of your famous Photoshops to show us how it would look :P
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 12, 2013, 07:09:50 pm
If im not mistaken, the Hull/Armor values changed with 1.1.4, as well as the speed. (I could be wrong though and need to look at numbers again.) It used to be 200/800 and now its 400/700, which is technically a buff. I was also under the impression that the Spire was slower than a Junker. Apart from the blueprints, I dont really look that hard into numbers and go by "feel."

As long as I've played the Junker had 700/400 Armor/Permahull, though I'm sure it was different at some point.  Also according to the blueprints the Spire and Junker are the same speed however the Spire accelerates faster.


3. Its a tank. Yes, your guns break like they are made of chinese metal, but if you have an engie camping the hull and the pilot is keeping good eyes on his balloon, you can work through the damage you are going to take. I always plan for my junker to have no guns or engines working after a fight. But i'll still be alive, tanking dps.


I agree that the Junker can tank pretty well.  Unfortunately a Pyra does it better, and it just seems that the Junker "should" be better at tanking.


A really terrible idea buff which I would love is changing its gun layout. Why should it be symmetrical? It's a Junker. What if you replaced the two light guns on the right side with a single medium gun?

That would be freakin' cool.  Not sure we can convince Muse to remake the whole ship, but it would be interesting.

Fun fact: The Junker was the first ship to be overpowered in GoIO
The more you know~

I'd be curious to hear what it was like.  Tell me more.

Thanks again for all the great comments.  I can feel the Muse gods presence getting nearer.  Maybe they'll hear my plea.  The more I think about the Junker the more I like it due to it's high skill level required.  I just wish it was a tad better so a crew could be rewarded for it's efforts by being able to hang with the big dogs of GOI.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on March 12, 2013, 07:21:32 pm
To update, the current stat is 500/700 hull/armor. I was off a touch.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 12, 2013, 07:26:23 pm
To update, the current stat is 500/700 hull/armor. I was off a touch.

Zill you even had me confused for a second.  500/700 for as long as I've been playing is what I meant.  Good catch.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Sgt. Spoon on March 12, 2013, 07:45:56 pm
Fun fact: The Junker was the first ship to be overpowered in GoIO
The more you know~

I'd be curious to hear what it was like.  Tell me more.

Hrm, let's see if I can remember correctly. Well we had the Goldfish (called Small Warship at the time) which was rather decent, a rather squishy but rather good squid (which I can't remember the name for) and a horribly weak Galleon (or Medium Warship). Ugh, the Galleon was at that stage the worst ship, being completely immobile while the medium flaks (the only medium weapon at the time) was quite weak as well.

The junker, which was called Small Freigher if I remember correctly, on the other hand one was able to keep 3 guns at the same time at a ship which was rather devastating at times. This combined with the fact that it kept a rather serious amount of hull at the time made it really fun to play with, stacking it fully with medium flaks and an occasional gatling, hurling volleys of small thin white lines at the enemy. The speed might have been faster than now, but I can't really remember.

The things I really do remember are substainable full out flak-broadsides, hammering each other till death. This as the Junker was more of a tank than it is today.

EDIT:
A really terrible idea buff which I would love is changing its gun layout. Why should it be symmetrical? It's a Junker. What if you replaced the two light guns on the right side with a single medium gun?

why does that idea sound so cool

It'd look ridiculously grotesque. Maybe you should do one of your famous Photoshops to show us how it would look :P

aww man, I should be spending my time on that instead of writing on the forums and my essays.
Way funnier
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 12, 2013, 07:49:40 pm
Wow, it's interesting to see how much the game has evolved since beta; and people thought 1.14 was a big change!
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Mr Arrow Captl Fello on March 13, 2013, 09:22:32 pm
Let me put this into perspective though…Without divulging Paddling secretes (meaning I’ll keep to sharing only the previous patch’s calculations)
Under continuous heavy flak fire utilizing charged rounds…assuming no missed shots to the hull, no fire damage is sustained and the engineer is on the hull the entire time armed with mallet/spanner/buff

The Galleon dies in 40 seconds
The Goldfish dies in 25 seconds
The Pyramidion dies in 25 seconds
The Junker dies in 15 seconds
The spire dies in 10 seconds
The Squid dies in 10 seconds

You can take my calculations at face value or if you would like to repeat the results you’ll need to have utilized a stop watch on the rebuild times for each ship prior to the patch (also, the times are rounded up to the next nearest 5th second to again mask some results)

Anyhow, with that said the Junker in my mind is the “light” Galleon and should be thought of as such...I base this on its utilization style, maneuverability and load out…I believe that it is at a unfair disadvantage when paired up against a Pyramidion or Goldfish (again, previous patch) and should outlive or at least be tied with faster, more functional or more maneuverable ships.

And for those people who feel the Junker is fine the way it is…why do you think that the most experienced pilots won’t fly this ship in a serious game?

When you go shot for shot against almost any other ship in the game, you will lose.

The other ships can “naturally” (no captains tools) out maneuver, and or outlive the Junker in nearly every matchup

Again, I invite naysayers to check the DPS on different gun combo’s, pick the most advantageous and match them up against an equally well armed Junker and see if mathematically the Junker can ever win…

(the answer is that it can’t except against a squid…and that is only if the squid doesn’t cause the Junker to miss any shots)


Which is what leads me to conclude that the Junker *Needs* to be buffed if it is ever going to receive serious consideration for utilization in tournament style or other forms of serious game-play

-Mr Arrow
First mate to Captain Smollett
and indeed a Capital Fellow
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 13, 2013, 10:02:30 pm

And for those people who feel the Junker is fine the way it is…why do you think that the most experienced pilots won’t fly this ship in a serious game?

When you go shot for shot against almost any other ship in the game, you will lose.

The other ships can “naturally” (no captains tools) out maneuver, and or outlive the Junker in nearly every matchup

Again, I invite naysayers to check the DPS on different gun combo’s, pick the most advantageous and match them up against an equally well armed Junker and see if mathematically the Junker can ever win…

(the answer is that it can’t except against a squid…and that is only if the squid doesn’t cause the Junker to miss any shots)


Which is what leads me to conclude that the Junker *Needs* to be buffed if it is ever going to receive serious consideration for utilization in tournament style or other forms of serious game-play


Well said Mr. Arrow.  You always have a way of putting things so succinctly.  It took me an entire page to try to make this point you made in under 10 sentences.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Lord Dick Tim on March 13, 2013, 10:53:21 pm
Well, Mr Arrow that about concludes the discussion I believe.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Phoebe on March 13, 2013, 11:11:24 pm
I was very dissapointed with the Junker myself - and I'm relatively new without any veteran experience.

After piloting for two days I've immediately noticed two things that greatly stand out:

1) The pyramidion seems way too powerful with too many pro's against con's compared to other ships
2) The junker seems way too weak with too many con's against pro's compared to other ships

These also translate to my observations that:

1) 90% of all matches I've played contained at least 2 pyramidions in them, about 25% of my matches have 3 pyramidions and one other ship.
2) about 5-10% of my matches I've played I'm seeing a Junker.

* These observations might differ per person and perspective

Now;- I don't know any of the maths; the fine details on the guns and I don't know all the hp/armor values by head so bare with me.  This is just observation feedback on my behalf.

The pyramidion can decide to tear ships apart close range with their front 2 guns;- or snipe from a distance with two devastating mercuries either on the front or on it's port side.   To me it seems this versatility and immense power should come with a massive drawback.   I don't see a massive drawback.

The pyramidion is the whole package - it excels in rams; has decent speed; a forgiveable turning radius; enough guns to stand it's own and seems incredibly sturdy. To top it off;- the lower pyramidion deck is extremely favoreable to a hull engineer who can quickly reach the engines and the side guns;- and the top deck left side engineer/gunner only has to do a quick 180 to repair the ballon.  It was no suprise to me that this was the goto ships for pretty much any serious Play to Win crew. 

From this perspective;- when I look at the Junker - it's basically a Pyramidion that is weaker; worse manouvrability; only has one gun on the front; has a lower deck battle station where its impossible to assist on repairing a hull or balloon anytime soon; has a balloon that sceams, "please pop me" that is a real pain to get to..... but it can fire on it's starboard.

I totally understand people would much rather win their battles and just take into account they can't fire from their starboard than put themselves in a serious disadvantage just to gain the ability to fire at a ship on that flank before meeting their doom.

Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 13, 2013, 11:19:27 pm
Phoebe, the Junker's balloon is really easy to get to. You can hit it from underneath.

That being said, I agree with all the above about the Junker being seriously underpowered. It's got good broadsides, but why would you go for that if you can choose a Galleon with more power and speed? It can handle targets at long and short range, but the Pyra can do that too, and the Pyra does it better. A lot better. So something needs to be done.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Helmic on March 14, 2013, 04:14:03 am
With that gigantic balloon and tiny hull you'd think it be able to gain altitude ridiculously fast.  I only ever see the Spire try to make use of superior vertical movement, maybe that's something the Junker should be capable of as well?
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Pickle on March 14, 2013, 04:49:00 am
From this perspective;- when I look at the Junker - it's basically a Pyramidion that is weaker; worse manouvrability; only has one gun on the front; has a lower deck battle station where its impossible to assist on repairing a hull or balloon anytime soon; has a balloon that sceams, "please pop me" that is a real pain to get to..... but it can fire on it's starboard.

The lower deck Gunner on a Junker (as well as fixing his own guns) can look after the main engine, and there is a trick for hitting the hull from below.

The Pyra really needs two people on the upper gun deck to be effective at dealong damage, whilst one is usually a Gungineer looking after the balloon, he's poorly placed for helping the main engineer without leaving his gun.  And the Gunner on the upper right position is left with nothing useful to do to contribute to the engineering on-ship.


Someone hit the nail on the head when they described the Junker as a Galleron-lite, this is the role it's born to.. but it's both slower and less heavily armed than the Galleon.  A speed boost to take it to at least the speed of the Galleon (or slightly faster) would better define its role and purpose.

The reason that those of us who do fly a Junker take it out, is because it's the most fun of all the ships to fly.  The Junker has soul/character in excess of all the other classes of ship.  And if you want a truly memorable match, go JFC and have all-Junker teams fighting against each other.  I've only done that as deathmatch, but surely Desert Scrap with all-Junker teams has to be worth a try at least once?

(and if I thought I'd get it, I'd request a "JFC" switch when creating a game to only allow Junkers to be selected)
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Phoebe on March 14, 2013, 02:23:30 pm


(and if I thought I'd get it, I'd request a "JFC" switch when creating a game to only allow Junkers to be selected)

Just to add to that particular line I think it would be quite neat to have some lobby customisation;- such as checkboxes to disallow ships and weapons;- create "Squid only Harpoon only" games and other player customised game rules -  but for anything of such to be substantial we first need to see a growth in players and that's where I'm currently putting my energy
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on March 14, 2013, 03:21:58 pm
Quote
The pyramidion is the whole package - it excels in rams; has decent speed; a forgiveable turning radius; enough guns to stand it's own and seems incredibly sturdy. To top it off;- the lower pyramidion deck is extremely favoreable to a hull engineer who can quickly reach the engines and the side guns;- and the top deck left side engineer/gunner only has to do a quick 180 to repair the ballon.  It was no suprise to me that this was the goto ships for pretty much any serious Play to Win crew

I will try to counter here with come weaknesses of the pyra, not to go too far off topic. First, its missing starboard guns entirely. Second, you have one engie down there to man two guns. Youre only going to effectively get one gun working down there. Swapping from front to side is pretty time consuming and not worth the time invested to do it. This is a weakness that is arguable, and that is the hull armor surrounds the balloon. It shields your balloon, but it also makes your hull armor one of the biggest targets out there under sustained fire.

In a Junker, you have a starboard broadside. Its also very easy to change sides. If youre using the front gun for anything besides support/chasing/tri-gun, then you need to rethink your junker tactics. That my opinion though.

I do agree that it should be faster, and only slightly, than a galleon.

Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: awkm on March 14, 2013, 03:42:30 pm
Fun fact: The Junker was the first ship to be overpowered in GoIO
The more you know~

The leading reason why I am extremely unwilling to touch the Junker.  I've been both absolutely dominated by the Junker as well completely obliterating them in my own play in the past few weeks.  It's not the type of ship I like to fly but nor is the Galleon or Spire.

And pretty much what Zill said.  Look at the armor and the types of weapons you can load onto it and you'll understand what it was meant for.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 14, 2013, 07:32:33 pm
Greetings everyone!  Making a guest appearance on the forum :D 
And I want to just chime in from my own point of view, as a player (an average pilot).
On the junker, I'm a bit torn, as I feel that in certain situations, it's pretty awesome.  And if I'm not totally retarded, it's the 1 ship that can get 3 guns on a target at the same time.   But the slowness of speed does limit it in mid to short range combat. 

On the pyra, I'm unofficially making a claim that it is the easiest ship for new players, so I'm not surprised at all that it is more in use at the moment.  However, I agree with Pickle and Zill in that it is far from OP.  I still prefer my galleon, but I just need to bribe Ataris, Vasylko, CFG, or Rethburn to crew with me as my gunner.  I'm not too picky. 
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Pickle on March 14, 2013, 07:53:49 pm
I'l disagree on the Pyra as the best for new players - I find that the Goldfish is better if you're playing a match with new players, and the Junker is better for teaching in Sandbox.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Helmic on March 14, 2013, 08:41:59 pm
I have a much easier time getting three guns to bear on a Pyra than on a Junker.  All I have to do is turn slightly to the right side of my target and they're simultaneously set on fire, have their hull down, and are taking direct hull damage.  The Junker is NOT the only ship that can get three guns on a single target, and I'd argue that it's harder since it has to move laterally from its target while the Pyramidion can more or less face forward.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 14, 2013, 09:04:59 pm
You guys are missing something obvious.

The best ship at getting three guns on one target...

...is the Galleon.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Phoebe on March 14, 2013, 09:10:05 pm
You guys are missing something obvious.

The best ship at getting three guns on one target...

...is the Galleon.


Even a squid can get three guns on one target.   Approach a galleons port side and carefully stop in the dead centre hugging the galleon;- gatlings on two ends can now hit the Galleon and you have your starboard gun.

:P
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 14, 2013, 09:12:22 pm
You guys are missing something obvious.

The best ship at getting three guns on one target...

...is the Galleon.


Even a squid can get three guns on one target.   Approach a galleons port side and carefully stop in the dead centre hugging the galleon;- gatlings on two ends can now hit the Galleon and you have your starboard gun.

:P


Sitting in a Galleon's broadside with a Squid? Great idea.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Phoebe on March 14, 2013, 09:13:37 pm
You guys are missing something obvious.

The best ship at getting three guns on one target...

...is the Galleon.


Even a squid can get three guns on one target.   Approach a galleons port side and carefully stop in the dead centre hugging the galleon;- gatlings on two ends can now hit the Galleon and you have your starboard gun.

:P


Sitting in a Galleon's broadside with a Squid? Great idea.

But I'm not wrong!
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: awkm on March 14, 2013, 09:14:30 pm
The Galleon dies in 40 seconds
The Goldfish dies in 25 seconds
The Pyramidion dies in 25 seconds
The Junker dies in 15 seconds
The spire dies in 10 seconds
The Squid dies in 10 seconds

Correction

For continuous Medium Flak damage at range against full armor and full health, no skills, and no one repairing:

Junker takes 35 seconds to kill. 
Goldfish 28 seconds just to put it into perspective.

Therefore, the numbers you have come up with are not correct.  There is no way that constant armor repair + increased damage can be less than these numbers.  I can only conclude that there were unexpected variables in your tests (e.g. other ships firing upon your junker).


Furthermore, the Junker has been 500 HP 700 Armor for a pretty long time from what I remember.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Phoebe on March 14, 2013, 09:17:21 pm
unexpected variables

Huge rock pillar.  :P


edit: sorry eric I'm in a playful mood
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 14, 2013, 09:25:11 pm
For continuous Medium Flak damage at range against full armor and full health, no skills, and no one repairing:

Junker takes 35 seconds to kill. 
Goldfish 28 seconds just to put it into perspective.

Mr. Arrow did say Charged Flak, but I guess that won't account for the difference at all.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: awkm on March 14, 2013, 09:27:29 pm
Huge rock pillar.  :P

Yes, this would certainly change the results dramatically lol.

But yeah... the Junker is quite a tank.  Armor + slimmer (and less) hit box that Pyramidion.  Just FYI, the metal bits on top of the pyramidion and over the balloon are hull hit boxes.  The pyramidion has a lot more hull surface area to hit compared to a junker.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: awkm on March 14, 2013, 09:28:22 pm
Mr. Arrow did say Charged Flak, but I guess that won't account for the difference at all.

Just apply the same % modifier to those times, it still is higher than Mr Arrow's results and he's repairing too.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Phoebe on March 14, 2013, 09:30:38 pm
  Just FYI, the metal bits on top of the pyramidion and over the balloon are hull hit boxes.  The pyramidion has a lot more hull surface area to hit compared to a junker.

I wonder what would be more effective;- try to directly gun the hull down and funnel all their engineer stress into a single component; or just keep spraying the Pyramidion balloon to take the hull down a little slower;- but force their topgun engineer to leave his gun... I guess it's a little situational.

Although;- that's useful information I didn't know yet being relatively new still
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 14, 2013, 09:33:00 pm
  Just FYI, the metal bits on top of the pyramidion and over the balloon are hull hit boxes.  The pyramidion has a lot more hull surface area to hit compared to a junker.

I wonder what would be more effective;- try to directly gun the hull down and funnel all their engineer stress into a single component; or just keep spraying the Pyramidion balloon to take the hull down a little slower;- but force their topgun engineer to leave his gun... I guess it's a little situational.

Although;- that's useful information I didn't know yet being relatively new still

Target the hull directly for sure, unless you have a balloon-killing gun like the carronade.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: N-Sunderland on March 14, 2013, 09:35:47 pm
Mr. Arrow did say Charged Flak, but I guess that won't account for the difference at all.

Just apply the same % modifier to those times, it still is higher than Mr Arrow's results and he's repairing too.

Looking back at his stats, they definitely can't be right at all. 10 seconds for a Spire to go down?

Maybe... Maybe there were two flaks? Then the stats would be sort of close to right...
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Lord Dick Tim on March 15, 2013, 02:07:53 am
I really do love the Junker, and I can see where adjusting it even a little could break the game with its sheer damage potential.  But against a junker, I'd just field two pyramidions with mercs on the side and chain flak on the front.  That'll likely be one of the most heavily used combinations on the cogs, if not the winning one.
I wouldnt use the Junker in this role, even though it's more then capable of being a sniper platform and still have close range ability.  It wouldnt survive the need to get to close range, and it wouldnt survive the long range combat. 

At brass tacs, I doubt anyone who is truly trying to compete is going to field a Junker.  I hope I am completely wrong and the cogs turns into Junker fight club.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 15, 2013, 03:23:00 am
Alright alright, thanks for pointing out that I'm an idiot.  I was going on over 24hrs without sleep.  So the galleon, my favorite ship, the one I take into battle everyday, does have 3 port side guns.  Hmmm!  Hahaha.  It's true, pyra can get 3 guns, but I would still argue that the junker is much easier, given that it's pretty easy to turn.  Pyra takes more coordination to get 3 guns on a ship in my opinion.  But what do I know, I'm not the greatest combat pilot around. 
I agree that pyra takes more coordination, but I still contend that it's easier on new players, or the new players may need to learn not to equip flak or even hwacha on front, or if hwacha, bring heavy.  But I guess both ships are good.  I definitely wouldn't recommend a new player bringing squid, junker, spire, or galleon into battle. 

Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 15, 2013, 03:55:03 am
Fun fact: The Junker was the first ship to be overpowered in GoIO
The more you know~

The leading reason why I am extremely unwilling to touch the Junker.  I've been both absolutely dominated by the Junker as well completely obliterating them in my own play in the past few weeks.  It's not the type of ship I like to fly but nor is the Galleon or Spire.


awkm thanks as always for being active on the forums.  I completely agree with you and I think the last thing that I or anyone wants is the Junker or any other ship to be OP like the Junker apparently used to be.   I'd ideally like all the ships in the game to be competitive which is why it's so great we're all talking about this.

Greetings everyone!  Making a guest appearance on the forum :D 
And I want to just chime in from my own point of view, as a player (an average pilot).
On the junker, I'm a bit torn, as I feel that in certain situations, it's pretty awesome.  And if I'm not totally retarded, it's the 1 ship that can get 3 guns on a target at the same time.   But the slowness of speed does limit it in mid to short range combat. 

On the pyra, I'm unofficially making a claim that it is the easiest ship for new players, so I'm not surprised at all that it is more in use at the moment. 

Thanks Bubbles for chiming in!  I think this has been stated already but I spent a good chunk of time playing a game with helmic today where my entire goal was to spend the match with 3 guns on target.  It used to be something I did a lot in 1.13 with the flamethrower that I had sort of let go by the wayside once flamers were nerfed.  Today I realised it's a lot easier than I recall.  Also I do think there's more to the Pyras frequency than just being one of the easiest ships to use (which it surely is) that keeps vets and new players alike flying Pyras.

The Galleon dies in 40 seconds
The Goldfish dies in 25 seconds
The Pyramidion dies in 25 seconds
The Junker dies in 15 seconds
The spire dies in 10 seconds
The Squid dies in 10 seconds

Correction

For continuous Medium Flak damage at range against full armor and full health, no skills, and no one repairing:

Junker takes 35 seconds to kill. 
Goldfish 28 seconds just to put it into perspective.

Therefore, the numbers you have come up with are not correct.  There is no way that constant armor repair + increased damage can be less than these numbers.  I can only conclude that there were unexpected variables in your tests (e.g. other ships firing upon your junker).



These were numbers taken from 1.13 when explosive damage had a .5 multiplyer to armor.  Arrow was just using these numbers since he had them on hand.  Using heavy flak was a really convenient way to measure durability before since it broke armor and hull.  Now heavy flak barely scratches armor and doesn't make a fair comparison when showing a ship that has a lot of armor to one that doesn't.  A comparison on dps with a light flak and gattling would surely shed light on the fragility of the junker compared to other ships like the goldfish.  A goldfish has 1100 hull and 400 armor.  It takes two clips of light flak hitting a goldfish without armor to kill it.  But the armor gets rebuilt in 4 seconds or less, so it normally takes many more tries than that.  A Junker hull drops in one clip of gattling if most of the shots land and just a tiny bit into the second clip if they don't.  After that, 3 shots of light flak is all that is needed to hit, in a much longer rebuild window.  I've never seen any of my gunners have problems taking down a Junker once it's hull drops the first time at close range and at most a Junker gets two hull drops at mid range. 
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: HamsterIV on March 15, 2013, 01:13:34 pm
The way I crew a junker it is very hard to get three guns on target. The Bowsprit gun is a very long walk from the turning engines and balloon. Also the guns with the wides turn radius are pretty low damage output. I tend to ask my gunner to switch between the below deck side guns and the front gun depending on what has shot. I have one engineer bouncing between the hull and balloon while the other shoots from the top side guns. The only way I can get a trifecta is to dispatch my main engineer to the component furthest away from my balloon an turning engines. This is an unacceptable risk against all but the noobies of enemies.

The Pyrammidion has two slots dedicated to gunning and a gun so close to the hull that the primary engineer can get a few shots in without getting dangerously far away from his primary duty.

To me the junker's two main strength is versatility and field of fire. Having five gun slots means it can have a long range and a shot range side. The Galleon can do this too, but the galleon has medium weapons with notoriously poor fields of fire. The galleon also has a much bigger profile. Making it easier for blender fish and squids to camp their balloon weak spot. The junker has less powerful weaponry but a smaller profile and a better field of fire to counter nippy squids and blender fish.

Also the pyramidion has a very large blind side which can be exploited by the Spaceman Maneuver:
http://gunsoficarus.com/community/forumarchive/discussion/527/the-evolution-of-squid-maneuvers/

Using the Spaceman Maneuver against a junker will most likely get your tail shot off as the gunners jump to the other side.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: awkm on March 15, 2013, 01:18:15 pm
These were numbers taken from 1.13 when explosive damage had a .5 multiplyer to armor.  Arrow was just using these numbers since he had them on hand.  Using heavy flak was a really convenient way to measure durability before since it broke armor and hull.  Now heavy flak barely scratches armor and doesn't make a fair comparison when showing a ship that has a lot of armor to one that doesn't.  A comparison on dps with a light flak and gattling would surely shed light on the fragility of the junker compared to other ships like the goldfish.  A goldfish has 1100 hull and 400 armor.  It takes two clips of light flak hitting a goldfish without armor to kill it.  But the armor gets rebuilt in 4 seconds or less, so it normally takes many more tries than that.  A Junker hull drops in one clip of gattling if most of the shots land and just a tiny bit into the second clip if they don't.  After that, 3 shots of light flak is all that is needed to hit, in a much longer rebuild window.  I've never seen any of my gunners have problems taking down a Junker once it's hull drops the first time at close range and at most a Junker gets two hull drops at mid range. 

The times even with the old multiplier against armor are still massively incorrect.  The Junker still out tanks the Goldfish.

Don't forget that rebuilding is easily augmented by the # of people rebuilding the component.  If two people with small wrench rebuild the armor, it'll be up in no time at all.  These are intricacies in balance vs. strategy (player coordination/skill) that are implicitly built into the designs of ships.  You know that the armor will take longer to rebuild... so what are you going to do about it?
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Squash on March 15, 2013, 02:31:49 pm
Hey Junker Captain, I've got a suggestion for you:

(http://i.imgur.com/vjTiENA.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/vKObjTU.jpg)

Get your crap off the freaking stairs, there aren't even handrails, you're a floating OSHA magnet.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 15, 2013, 05:04:03 pm
These were numbers taken from 1.13 when explosive damage had a .5 multiplyer to armor.  Arrow was just using these numbers since he had them on hand.  Using heavy flak was a really convenient way to measure durability before since it broke armor and hull.  Now heavy flak barely scratches armor and doesn't make a fair comparison when showing a ship that has a lot of armor to one that doesn't.  A comparison on dps with a light flak and gattling would surely shed light on the fragility of the junker compared to other ships like the goldfish.  A goldfish has 1100 hull and 400 armor.  It takes two clips of light flak hitting a goldfish without armor to kill it.  But the armor gets rebuilt in 4 seconds or less, so it normally takes many more tries than that.  A Junker hull drops in one clip of gattling if most of the shots land and just a tiny bit into the second clip if they don't.  After that, 3 shots of light flak is all that is needed to hit, in a much longer rebuild window.  I've never seen any of my gunners have problems taking down a Junker once it's hull drops the first time at close range and at most a Junker gets two hull drops at mid range. 

The times even with the old multiplier against armor are still massively incorrect.  The Junker still out tanks the Goldfish.



I think Arrow's measurements were correct and sort of showed the hidden tankiness of a goldfish.  A goldfish's armor can always rebuild before a heavy Flak finishes reloading with one engineer working on it; a Junker's cannot.  Arrow's numbers took into account that the Goldfish would get multiple rebuilds while the Junker would not be able to get it's armor up before the gun reloaded after the armor broke.  This  is why in practice the Goldfish is still one of the most difficult ships to kill in the game.  It may have wimpy armor and is very susceptible to focused fire, however in practice it's speed and agility often can get it to dodge a few shots just long enough for the armor to come back.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in my opinion, regardless of the numbers (awkm is probably right about them since he made them all) the Junker doesn't feel like a tank.  It just seems sort of slow and squishy.  Obviously just an opinion, and more of a gut feeling based on far too many hours of game play.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Captain Smollett on March 15, 2013, 05:05:24 pm
Hey Junker Captain, I've got a suggestion for you:

(http://i.imgur.com/vjTiENA.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/vKObjTU.jpg)

Get your crap off the freaking stairs, there aren't even handrails, you're a floating OSHA magnet.

Ok this is pretty great btw.  Salute for this.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: HamsterIV on March 15, 2013, 07:33:36 pm
Don't forget that rebuilding is easily augmented by the # of people rebuilding the component.  If two people with small wrench rebuild the armor, it'll be up in no time at all.  These are intricacies in balance vs. strategy (player coordination/skill) that are implicitly built into the designs of ships.  You know that the armor will take longer to rebuild... so what are you going to do about it?

Most of us just don't field the junker or take her out as a bit of a joke. The Galleon is better at tanking and broad side fighting. The Pyramidion is better at three weapon focus at close range. The rest of the ships have completely different rolls to play. The only place the junker shines in my eyes is dealing with a squid who is very good at taking advantage of blind spots. Even then, the huge balloon is a liability.

I like the fact that the junker is sort of a pariah of the fleet. It makes any victory scored with her that much sweeter.
Title: Re: Buff the Junker
Post by: Mr Arrow Captl Fello on April 01, 2013, 09:55:50 pm
Eric,
I feel like I need to defend my position here…I do have fairly extensive spreadsheets where I have utilized the numbers you have given us (for damage) and taken actual stop watch measurements of hull rebuild times, and gun load / unload times, Amongst a ridiculous array of “flight tests”

Unfortunately, I also feel if I share those here with you, we may see additional hidden tweaks to the game…not to mention that my latest spreadsheets prove that some of the published damage values are incorrect
And yes, even the ones I shared with you go second by second looking at ideal repair (no missed mallet/spanner blows) vs ideal firing (no missed shots)

if you would like we can take this offline (via PM's)

-Mr Arrow
First mate to Captain Smollett
and indeed a Capital Fellow