Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: awkm on October 28, 2013, 01:25:33 pm
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Changes here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14-1AnOLfaEKuPvbthlY1WfNvL8_0nijTRHZDCq8XAuA/pub
No changes to pilot or pilot skills so I'm looping it into Ship balance as well since major changes happened to the Spire.
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Is it me or did you guys just render the mobula obsolete?
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Changes to the Mobula are coming, they will require much more time.
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Is it me or did you guys just render the mobula obsolete?
Where did you get this idea from o.O
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Im actually curious to try mine out in the new patch as a lot of its easy counters got scaled back.
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Where did you get this idea from o.O
Probably because the Mobula's real strength was the ability to easily get 3-4 light guns on a single target. With the changes, the Spire can easily get 2-3 light guns and a medium gun on a single target, making it have strictly more firepower than the Mobula, while also being easier to Engineer on (especially now that the hull is in an easier spot to get 2 people on without sacrificing your ability to quickly switch back to shooting).
It sort of leaves the Mobula high and dry, as it's role of "concentrated firepower on a single target" is now better done by the Spire in virtually all cases.
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Where did you get this idea from o.O
Probably because the Mobula's real strength was the ability to easily get 3-4 light guns on a single target. With the changes, the Spire can easily get 2-3 light guns and a medium gun on a single target, making it have strictly more firepower than the Mobula, while also being easier to Engineer on (especially now that the hull is in an easier spot to get 2 people on without sacrificing your ability to quickly switch back to shooting).
It sort of leaves the Mobula high and dry, as it's role of "concentrated firepower on a single target" is now better done by the Spire in virtually all cases.
Exactly this. However, i am glad to hear that the Mobula is being worked on and I look forward to seeing if it's worth the wait :)
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I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the mobula as viable. True, they are very similar in roles with the exception that the Spire has a heavy weapon option. However what the mobula lacks in firepower it makes up for in versatility in guns. I normally have a merc, two artemis, and two caronades, all in a mirror config. This allows me to have 3 guns firing at long range, and 2 guns just in case a brawler ship closes the distance and gets too close. A spire with 4 long range guns might not have that close range defense. However, with the nerf to the brawler builds, I guess you could be right since no one's going to be getting within 450 meters of a good sniping platform any time soon!
Either way, hearing that changes to a mobula are inbound makes me very happy
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As a pretty formidable mobula pilot I'm keen to see how the patch will affect the viability of it. Don't forget the dual trifectas have pretty big implications when it comes to deciding the range of engagements (as NoWuffo points out above), not to mention the balloon position, vertical size/height and manueverability of the mobula compared to the spire. I'm sure I'll find out the hard way tonight! Looking forward to flying the spire again too. I've always had a soft spot for it.
While there might not be any direct piloting changes, there's going to have to be some changes out there in the skies now the engagement distances have altered so dramatically. Brawlers are going to have to be a lot more creative. I'll be glad to see fewer gat/mortar pyras and blenderfish/pyras flying directly at me if nothing else as well! I kind of love the disarray after a patch.
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To be honest, I'm kind of torn on the Spire changes.
On one hand, I like that ship and seeing it buffed is a good thing.
On the other, I HATE the trend of "foward-pointing guns are the way to go". I hated the Mobula because its whole deal was "look how many foward facing guns I have", which felt like a cheap way of making a ship powerful.
Point and fire, in my opinion, is NOT a fun way to play this game, expecially not on slow ships. Can't we have a bit more creative weapon placement so to encourage a radically different play style from ship to ship?
Anyway, here's hoping that the now-obsolete Mobula is redesigned with a different phylosophy in mind.
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That's exactly what's fun about the mobula for me! And like the spire, there's plenty of risk involved with that much firepower frontloaded on a more fragile ship that's harder to repair and maneuver. If you're wanting glass cannons and light weapons platforms, the spire and mobula are the ships for you. If you're wanting something else, you've got the junker, pyra, squid, galleon and goldfish. It's nice to have the choice.
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The problem is that the Mobula and Spire are now virtually identical in concept, with the difference that the Spire has superior firepower and it's easier to repair in battle.
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The spire has superior firepower at a specific range. I'm not saying the mobula is fine as is now, what I am saying is that there are other differences and reasons for choosing one over the other (some mentioned above). Whether those differences are substantial enough right now I don't know. I'll see later when I have a play with the new patch.
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Not much else to say really. Want to try the spire, the mobula didn't really have a place before (never saw it used) and now certainly wont until changes are made.
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It's the ship I fly (flew?) the most Krieg so it definitely had a place before! ;-)
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Not much else to say really. Want to try the spire, the mobula didn't really have a place before (never saw it used) and now certainly wont until changes are made.
I'd avoid making such overarching statements. My clan used the mobula with quite a lot of success as a sniping-Galleon killer. True, a Spire might be better at it now, but maybe not. Don't be so quick to rule out any given ship, ever. Often if you get creative and find something that goes against the norm, you may be rewarded for your audacity to defy the meta.
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Not much else to say really. Want to try the spire, the mobula didn't really have a place before (never saw it used) and now certainly wont until changes are made.
I'd avoid making such overarching statements. My clan used the mobula with quite a lot of success as a sniping-Galleon killer. True, a Spire might be better at it now, but maybe not. Don't be so quick to rule out any given ship, ever. Often if you get creative and find something that goes against the norm, you may be rewarded for your audacity to defy the meta.
Or just lose repeatedly :P
At any rate, I've never seen them used to any effect. Likely because that would require this aforementioned "Creativity" while most prefer to follow the FoTM, but yeah at any rate when everything is easier to use and quite effective, there is little incentive for experimentation =/
That said, I would love to see creative use of the mobula. I fussed around with the idea of a "DMZ mobula" using 2 mine launchers on the outer guns and different medium range weapons in the middle and center, but it always just got bumrushed regardless.
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We have the odd rough game but that's usually down to uneven teams (this of course works both ways). I've never seen anyone fly my mobula build before though and it's frequently commented on after games. It's quite unorthodox and versatile, lending itself to shorter and longer ranges, higher and lower engagements, as well as newcomers and more experienced players. Granted, it's not a focused death machine like other builds but I think my loadout more than makes up for that. I've played against pilots with your mentality Krieg who have dismissed the mobula and fell foul to us focusing them down. Needless to say, subsequent games we were focused down! And yeah, that hurts ;-)
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The Mobula's shouldn't be so quickly dismissed.
It has nearly the armor and permahull of a pyra but with many more guns and trifecta options. What it lacks in forward speed it makes up for with absolutely absurd vertical movement. What it lacks with ramming it makes up for with more firepower. It just needs a much better crew than a pyra does and not many of the more experienced players have taken on the challenge yet of Mobula mastery.
People just need to experiment with it a bit more. The spire is much more vulnerable to disabling as well as outright destruction. 3 light weapons + 1 heavy weapon is not always better than 4 light weapons either as people often forget the pilot can jump mount the middle gun on the Mobula.
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people often forget the pilot can jump mount the middle gun on the Mobula.
Didn't they fix that? Can't say i've tried it lately. Also, ask raft about the mobula ;p
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I haven't checked since the last patch but in the one before it the pilot couldn't jump directly from the helm position to the gun mount. However the the pilot could to jump on the railing then jump to the gun. It is a bit harder but doable if the pilot had time. I think Muse should leave it in especially since it is even easier and more effective to quadfecta on a Spire by design.
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The only issue I have with the piloting tools is something that's been around for ages. The 'effects continue for X seconds after deactivation'. Especially with the balloon tools. You might want to duck down real quick, or rise up, but the effects continue for a good amount of time, doing a lot of balloon damage, and on occasion sending you hurtling towards terra firma. Why do these items have persistent effects while engine items only last during their activation?
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Mostly for balance I imagine. I like it since you just blip it on and you'll normally get the desired effect for a dodge or quick maneuver. Holding it longer is usually a desperation move.
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The only issue I have with the piloting tools is something that's been around for ages. The 'effects continue for X seconds after deactivation'. Especially with the balloon tools. You might want to duck down real quick, or rise up, but the effects continue for a good amount of time, doing a lot of balloon damage, and on occasion sending you hurtling towards terra firma. Why do these items have persistent effects while engine items only last during their activation?
I think Zill hit the nail on the head here.
There's also the issue of Drogue Chute: I'm always glad that I can pop it on, swing at the Balloon a few times (on a Goldfish, Squid, or Galleon), return to the helm, pop it on again, and repeat. Having the captain able to slow the descent AND repair helps tremendously against Balloon pins.
...though I'll admit the usual case of <1 seconds of activation for, say, Hydrogen and Chute Vent makes the "Use 240 seconds of Chute Vent" achievements a bit silly. :P
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I haven't checked since the last patch but in the one before it the pilot couldn't jump directly from the helm position to the gun mount. However the the pilot could to jump on the railing then jump to the gun. It is a bit harder but doable if the pilot had time. I think Muse should leave it in especially since it is even easier and more effective to quadfecta on a Spire by design.
Actually pilots only need to turn around and sidestep and can already jump mount. The patch that changed it removed the ability of interaction through walls. The wall in front of the top gun is not as high on the sides as right in the middle where the helm is.
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Probably because the Mobula's real strength was the ability to easily get 3-4 light guns on a single target. With the changes, the Spire can easily get 2-3 light guns and a medium gun on a single target, making it have strictly more firepower than the Mobula, while also being easier to Engineer on (especially now that the hull is in an easier spot to get 2 people on without sacrificing your ability to quickly switch back to shooting).
It sort of leaves the Mobula high and dry, as it's role of "concentrated firepower on a single target" is now better done by the Spire in virtually all cases.
Yupp, exactly what i argued about on spire forums.
I HATE the trend of "foward-pointing guns are the way to go"
Read my posts on https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2574.0.html
I argued constantly, even on an interview that the Spire simply needed an acceleration buff. The ship now is viable in many cases, i have to admit. The right gun facing forward didnt change much and simply made it more comfortable, but the lower left changed ALOT. Making it better than something else on this game (clearly talking about the mobula).
But if the spire were to stay like how it is noe in 1.3.3. Then ide suggest the mobula need some heavy stat changes regarding his health.
There is this trick on the mobula where the captain can jump on the gun above him which is usefull but thats not how i picture the mobula used.
If you look at the galleon, it is pretty much a heavy gun mobula, while the mobula is a light gun galleon. If anything the mobula in a way needs health change. It is as squishy, no MORE squishy than a spire. This multitool that is the mobula has a hard time maintaning being evasive because baloons are so costly to injure or have injured.
This will then derail me into talking about baloons being universal on ships and hard to repair.
The baloon is now much easier to take down. Not with the carronades but, just everything. Hades are a new contender to baloon destroying. And sort of works better than the light carronades. My main issue with the baloon is how long it takes to repair. Would be nice to have the mallet/Pipe wrench simply heal the baloon x2 more than what they usually do.
The descriptions could say "Heals 225 on hull and components, 450 on baloon". Now that i think of it, would be a bit too strong. 1.5? "337 on baloon".
Ok back to mobula. The good thing about the mobula is that the hull side has the hull closer to the gun than how the baloon is closer to the engine (to the back).
This is allready an obviouse design choice. BUT it is still hard to maintain and it looses its firepower if it does get injured.
Which leaves to the tactic of glass cannoning. Killing before getting killed.
With a drastic change of hullhealth on the mobula we could see that tactic where a mobula then would out damage a spire despite the spire having better ways of damaging the mobula because the mobula will gladly then take a bit of damage for the sake of killing the spire.
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There is this trick on the mobula where the captain can jump on the gun above him which is usefull but thats not how i picture the mobula used.
A point we differ on. I feel that gun should be made more accessible to the pilot. It seems the Mobula is supposed to be the weapons platform of Guns of Icarus, and I can't think of a better way to help shape that distinction than giving the pilot ready access to a gun. I know the ability of the top-right Spire gun to fire forward has already made me hop on the weapon as a pilot and use it as a stationary sniping platform when against teams where I can get away with that.
If you look at the galleon, it is pretty much a heavy gun mobula, while the mobula is a light gun galleon.
I'd always considered the Galleon as a area denial and/or sniping ship rather than the offensive weapons platform I think of the Mobula as. Maybe that's just me.
With a drastic change of hullhealth on the mobula we could see that tactic where a mobula then would out damage a spire despite the spire having better ways of damaging the mobula because the mobula will gladly then take a bit of damage for the sake of killing the spire.
This might solve the issue, yes...but I think there are more elegant ways to solve the problem.
The way I see it we've got an issue of a large, relatively un-mobile forward facing weapons platform that is difficult to Engineer on. Which is basically what the Spire was, although the movement of the hull has, in my experience, made it easier to keep alive. Our current defining difference is the 5 light guns vs 3 light + 1 Heavy, the slight emphasis of turning on the Spire vs. vertical movement on the Mobula, and the layout of the floor plan. To me that's not quite enough of a distinction to really sell the two as decidedly separate and equally useful ships, especially now that the Spire has easy gun access for the pilot (on a gun that can shoot forwards, no less). While the ships are definitely different, they conceptually tread on each other's toes (in my mind, at least).
A general question to the community, then: How do you see the Mobula? What would you want to see a floating gun platform used for, and how would you like to see it handled? MUSE has stated in this thread that they're looking at the Mobula, so maybe we can help them narrow down what we'd like to see the Mobula become.
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A general question to the community, then: How do you see the Mobula? What would you want to see a floating gun platform used for, and how would you like to see it handled? MUSE has stated in this thread that they're looking at the Mobula, so maybe we can help them narrow down what we'd like to see the Mobula become.
As I said before, I'd like to see a complete redesign when it comes to gun placement.
First I'll explain my logic: front facing guns are boring when you are piloting a ship and I play mainly pilot. I have the most fun when I can make hit-and-run tactics, which are best accomplished with side guns or even rear guns.
Plus, most ships already have front facing guns and the Mobula is getting really similar to the Spire right now.
What I would like to see for the mobula is more of a side weapon configuration, 3 light guns on each side with trifecta possibile if the enemy is in the sweet spot, no front gun nor back gun, but the side weapons can fire a bit towards the back if the weapon has enough firing arc.
Alternatively make it REALLY crazy and simply change place of the guns: all facing back! It would be unique and could be open to some interesting loadouts and strategies, plus combo ability with things like tar, harpoons+moonshine to "tow" ships (assuming it works like some people say), mines and so on...
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What I would like to see for the mobula is more of a side weapon configuration, 3 light guns on each side with trifecta possibile if the enemy is in the sweet spot, no front gun nor back gun, but the side weapons can fire a bit towards the back if the weapon has enough firing arc.
Wouldn't that functionally just make the mobula a bigger Junker?
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here is something nuts:
mobula has BIG exposed baloon = weakness
fairly slow in a straight line = Weakness
fair turning rate = Average
Great vertical movement= Advantage
Weak Armor= Weakness
what if we changed its armor and made it more like goldfish level with its super exposed baloon and terrible repair points it would be FAR from a tank but the buff COULD make it an interesting brawler, kind of like "the spire for close range"
MAYBE if we needed to we could even take its turning rate down a little bit....
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here is something nuts:
mobula has BIG exposed baloon = weakness
fairly slow in a straight line = Weakness
fair turning rate = Average
Great vertical movement= Advantage
Weak Armor= Weakness
what if we changed its armor and made it more like goldfish level with its super exposed baloon and terrible repair points it would be FAR from a tank but the buff COULD make it an interesting brawler, kind of like "the spire for close range"
MAYBE if we needed to we could even take its turning rate down a little bit....
Well, it's armor is actually relatively high; that withstanding I actually agree it would be very interesting to see it with an armor boost. Even a slight boost would give it a big advantage in its alpha strike capabilities.
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i thought it had spire level armor
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It's a common misconception.
It has 600 armor and 700 perma hull. The difficulty in engineering, keeping up a buff and manning a gun is often too much for the average team to handle which is why the thing seems so darned squishy. That and the hull is nothing but a ram catcher and mortar landing pad.
More armor though would make the thing scary. I was actually prepping a mobula for competitive play before the last major patch and almost brought one against the SIRs had they chosen different ship builds. The thing is good now, but a bit more armor could definitely make the ship fierce.
edit - these numbers are updated and accurate http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/ships-3/
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It's a common misconception.
It has 600 armor and 700 perma hull. The difficulty in engineering, keeping up a buff and manning a gun is often too much for the average team to handle which is why the thing seems so darned squishy. That and the hull is nothing but a ram catcher and mortar landing pad.
More armor though would make the thing scary. I was actually prepping a mobula for competitive play before the last major patch and almost brought one against the SIRs had they chosen different ship builds. The thing is good now, but a bit more armor could definitely make the ship fierce.
edit - these numbers are updated and accurate http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/ships-3/
yeah i mean as is it is, it is workable for long range but i think up close the problems you listed are correct which is why i think if we buffed it for more close range options it could be interesting
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The thing about the mobula is that you have to know when you should be outputting ridiculous amounts of damage or repairing. It gets in with it's vertical movement and either has to finish the job or it dies. But man can it finish the job when you've got it positioned properly. You can't repair through all the varied damage types you can put out of that ship. You keep your engies on those guns until it's over.
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Lets not forget crew placement on the mobula.
When the mobula came out, it was the biggest multitool ship for me.
So if you were to place brawling guns on the RIGHT side, and sniper guns on the LEFT side. You then have engineers that are positioned to look out for their correct components.
When in Brawl, the engineer on the sniper side will have focus on the hull, while on Sniping, engineer on brawl side is then on the baloon.
Because with the baloon you can dodge sniper shots easily.
The weapon on the middle is to be used for every purpose. If you would build the mobula how i described, either an artemis or a light flak should be used on the top by the captain.
While the gunner alternates between the sniper side and the brawling side.
(Im just listing strengths here)
With this, youve got a solid mobula put in good use without too much pilot tool use.
But the mobula cant place itself higher than that. Youve got builds where the 3 middle guns trifecta for a sniping/Brawling which defeats the firepower onthe mobula because if then it gets injured, it will loose firepower because it has to sacrafice a person that just used a gun to run and repair. It is slow to react, slow to get back into the fight.
The weapons are fine but the mobula is just slow to work around with.
The mobula has to forgive somekind of aspect. Is the mobula light enough for the ship to stay in the air for longer when the baloon is down with added drogue chute than other ships? That is then a forgiving factor, can the mobula survive for just a bit longer with one man on the hull? It needs to be a more forgiving factor.