Guns Of Icarus Online

Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: awkm on March 06, 2013, 01:04:36 pm

Title: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: awkm on March 06, 2013, 01:04:36 pm
This appeared in Q&A so I'm reposting.  This does not go over damage multipliers, I think that's pretty self explanatory.

Multipliers and general gun info can be found here:
http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/

These tables are dynamic and are most up to date.

Let me clear some stuff up.

Types of firing mechanisms:

Important variables affecting firing mechanism

Primary Secondary Dmg

And Alex (Watchmaker, and on of our talented programmers) covers the damage transfer stuff:
Overflow damage on a single hit does not transfer.

Subsequent hits transfer from the component that was hit to the "hull component" - meaning they apply damage to armor first, if any remains.

We've been unclear in the past on the terms for the two health bars on the hull (I try to refer to them as armor and health), which is probably part of the confusion.

Each hit (projectile, explosion, gatling or carronade ray/pellet) deals its damage to a single location, in a lump.  Transferred hits function exactly as if you actually hit, say, a hull hitbox instead of a balloon hitbox.  None of the balloon/engine/gun multipliers are applied; multipliers for hull armor or health are applied according to the hull's current state.

Note that there is a slightly weird case where a single hit deals more damage than remaining hull armor.  Currently, in this case, the base damage is multiplied by the armor modifiers, and any overflow of that modified value is applied directly to hull health.

And to clarify, mechanical components that are dead also transfer damage to hull.  E.g. the front gun on a Goldfish will transfer damage dealt to it to the hull if the gun is dead.  If this was not the case, you'll have a huge shield in the front of the ship to ram with etc.



One thing that's covered in the other topic and not here is damage multipliers when something is dead.  If the balloon is completely dead and you fire at it, the damage is transferred to the hull and hull multipliers are applied, not balloon.  You just get a bigger target area, not more damage per shot.  Although as Alex mentions in the quoted area, there is a discrepancy with this when one single hit destroys the balloon or whatever and there is damage left over.

I think that's the most of what's in play.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Pickle on March 06, 2013, 01:24:32 pm
And to clarify, mechanical components that are dead also transfer damage to hull.  E.g. the front gun on a Goldfish will transfer damage dealt to it to the hull if the gun is dead.  If this was not the case, you'll have a huge shield in the front of the ship to ram with etc.

One thing that's covered in the other topic and not here is damage multipliers when something is dead.  If the balloon is completely dead and you fire at it, the damage is transferred to the hull and hull multipliers are applied, not balloon.  You just get a bigger target area, not more damage per shot.  Although as Alex mentions in the quoted area, there is a discrepancy with this when one single hit destroys the balloon or whatever and there is damage left over.

And to clarify what Watchmaker has said on the other thread, the damage transfer from a dead component is to the "hull component", i.e. damage will be taken by the armour until the armour is destroyed and then the hull health.



(is it too late to fix the game so that "hull" is a component comprising a "chassis" protected by "armour", or some other distinction to avoid triplele-duty with the word "hull" - hull refers to the total component comprising the hull and the armour, it refers to the critical ship health bar on it's own in general terminology, and it even refers specifically to armour in the damage reporting system)
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Watchmaker on March 26, 2013, 03:41:38 pm
Part of the hotfix after 1.1.5 changed this very slightly, removing the overflow damage from destroyed armor (which was using the "wrong" multipliers, for armor rather than health).  Any excess damage on the hit that destroys armor now vanishes.

To stave off possible confusion: note that when using an explosive projectile, the direct-hit damage and the explosion damage are treated separately; if the direct hit wipes out the armor, the secondary explosion damage is still applied to hull health (appropriately modified for its damage type).
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Lochiel on April 10, 2013, 11:35:51 am
If damage dealt to components is passed through to the armor and then hull... does this mean that AOE damage that hits multiple destroyed components will do more armor/hull damage than AOE damage that doesn't hit any destroyed components?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Watchmaker on April 10, 2013, 12:10:00 pm
No, because the single instance of AOE damage will never damage a single component (the hull in this case) more than once.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: -Muse- Cullen on April 10, 2013, 01:36:53 pm
I updated the Wiki with the relevant information here. I also included a link back to this post.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: HamsterIV on April 16, 2013, 02:59:49 pm
Could some one from Muse explain how the physics of the harpoon rope work?
What causes it to detach?
How is force applied to the harpooning and the harpooned ship?
What airship properties (drag, mass, impact location) effect the harpoon physics?
Is there a timer between when the harpoon strikes and when the rope goes "tight"?
Is the thrust of your engines lessened while harpooned?

There seem to be a lot of variables in play for this mechanic and I am not sure how they all work together.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: awkm on April 16, 2013, 03:35:14 pm
Could some one from Muse explain how the physics of the harpoon rope work?
What causes it to detach?
How is force applied to the harpooning and the harpooned ship?
What airship properties (drag, mass, impact location) effect the harpoon physics?
Is there a timer between when the harpoon strikes and when the rope goes "tight"?
Is the thrust of your engines lessened while harpooned?

There seem to be a lot of variables in play for this mechanic and I am not sure how they all work together.


This is complicated question but here is the tl;dr version:


With that said... it's extremely difficult to predict the movement on your own.  It also takes into account engine movement and will further augment the outcome of these effects, making them even harder to predict.  We're looking into simplifying this system to make it less real and more gamey.  Easier to predict and actually do something that you'd like it to e.g. maintain range instead of pulling all of the time (because that's not always helpful).

However, I've heard that from the recent pull force reduction that harpoons are useful in some situations.  Although this is a small subset of the player set that can actually use them effectively.

Nothing is set in stone right now.  It's a decently sized feature request.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Gambrill on May 30, 2013, 03:24:41 pm
Could some one from Muse explain how the physics of the harpoon rope work?
What causes it to detach?
How is force applied to the harpooning and the harpooned ship?
What airship properties (drag, mass, impact location) effect the harpoon physics?
Is there a timer between when the harpoon strikes and when the rope goes "tight"?
Is the thrust of your engines lessened while harpooned?

There seem to be a lot of variables in play for this mechanic and I am not sure how they all work together.


This is complicated question but here is the tl;dr version:

  • A harpoon will detach automatically at 120 seconds
  • Max length is 600m before breaking
  • The harpoon will apply a constant pulling force (right when harpoon makes contact with hull) from the ship that fired the harpoon to the point where the harpoon is attached.  Movement and overall affect is similar to if the two ship bodies are afloat in water (air is also a liquid) but of course with the additional Y-axis movement.  It responds 100% accurately to how force would affect these bodies in liquid based on the two points of attachment as well as the drag profile of each body
  • Engine force output is not affected

With that said... it's extremely difficult to predict the movement on your own.  It also takes into account engine movement and will further augment the outcome of these effects, making them even harder to predict.  We're looking into simplifying this system to make it less real and more gamey.  Easier to predict and actually do something that you'd like it to e.g. maintain range instead of pulling all of the time (because that's not always helpful).

However, I've heard that from the recent pull force reduction that harpoons are useful in some situations.  Although this is a small subset of the player set that can actually use them effectively.

Nothing is set in stone right now.  It's a decently sized feature request.


how about when on the weapon if you hold 'S' it pulls? that way the captain can tell the crew member Exactly when he wants it to pull.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: uriak on May 30, 2013, 04:46:26 pm
Yeah the ability to pull, or at least stop the rope at a certain distance would be handy :)

I'm not sure if there is a topic for this, but is there a place for finding about rotation limits for each weapons? Are they weapon based, or ship based or both? This is an information that is harder to find that the damage.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Moo on May 30, 2013, 05:15:26 pm
Rotation limits are weapon-based. I'm not sure the figures were ever given for most guns though?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: naufrago on May 30, 2013, 06:28:24 pm
I'm curious how the flare gun works. If it hits multiple components, does it set all of them on fire or just the first thing it hits?

Also, the info for the flare gun on the weapons page seems to be a bit out of date (ammo is different, in-game shows secondary damage as explosive(?)). Would appreciate knowing the stats for it.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on May 30, 2013, 09:33:10 pm
I'm curious how the flare gun works. If it hits multiple components, does it set all of them on fire or just the first thing it hits?

The flare gun has an AoE of 0, so it's therefore impossible for it to hit multiple components, even with burst.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: naufrago on May 31, 2013, 12:00:07 am
I'm curious how the flare gun works. If it hits multiple components, does it set all of them on fire or just the first thing it hits?

The flare gun has an AoE of 0, so it's therefore impossible for it to hit multiple components, even with burst.

It may have an AoE of 0, but i've hit multiple things with one shot on numerous occasions, typically gun and hull or hull and balloon. I once hit a pyramidion's hull, side gun, then balloon from shooting underneath. Once it hits something, it doesn't stop immediately.

So yeah, I've been using it extensively the past few days and I'm really curious how it works.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on May 31, 2013, 01:29:42 am
There is a bit of travel through for lots of the projectiles in the game though the devs never tell us how much.

I know frequently prior to 1.14 that a mercury shot could break a weapon and the hull in one shot. This was due to it traveling through the gun to hit both the gun and the hull.

Maybe this is what you observed?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: naufrago on May 31, 2013, 01:44:43 am
There is a bit of travel through for lots of the projectiles in the game though the devs never tell us how much.

I know frequently prior to 1.14 that a mercury shot could break a weapon and the hull in one shot. This was due to it traveling through the gun to hit both the gun and the hull.

Maybe this is what you observed?

Yes. But the question still remains, does it only set the first thing it hits on fire or everything it hits? Also, what are its other stats, since its information seems a bit outdated?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on May 31, 2013, 08:00:21 am
There is a bit of travel through for lots of the projectiles in the game though the devs never tell us how much.

I know frequently prior to 1.14 that a mercury shot could break a weapon and the hull in one shot. This was due to it traveling through the gun to hit both the gun and the hull.

Maybe this is what you observed?

This was because back then, damage would spill over from extra damage. So if you shot out a component (hull armor for example) with a merc, and leftover damage would then be applied to the hull using incorrect modifiers. I forget when that was changed, but now it shouldn't spill over at all.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on May 31, 2013, 10:14:24 am
Damage would spill from hull to armor but not from component to hull.

Awkm admitted a long time a go that some weapons would penetrate  but only a very small distance. Then sometime after that admission the mercury seemed to stop doing it without any official comments in the patch notes.

Anyways, just some stories from an old salty aeronaut.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: HamsterIV on June 06, 2013, 05:13:08 pm
How do the cloud highlighting mechanics of the flare work?

Sometimes I shoot a flare into a cloud, and my ship gets spotted but the enemy ships are not visible.
Sometimes I shoot a flare into a cloud, and I see the enemy and the enemy sees me.
Sometimes I shoot a flare into a cloud, and I see the enemy but they don't spot me back.

I am pretty sure it has something to do with the distance from the flare or cloud, but a more precise answer would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Watchmaker on June 07, 2013, 10:50:41 am
Flares "illuminate" within a large radius once they trigger.  Ships that are illuminated and inside a cloud - regardless of team - are drawn as visible shadows on the cloud.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: naufrago on June 07, 2013, 02:23:15 pm
Since you may have missed my questions, does the flare gun only set the first thing it hits on fire or everything it hits? Also, what are its stats, since its information seems a bit outdated?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Letus on June 07, 2013, 02:31:26 pm
Since you may have missed my questions, does the flare gun only set the first thing it hits on fire or everything it hits? Also, what are its stats, since its information seems a bit outdated?

Flaregun travels and sets everything it passes through on fire until it activates.  The distance between a hit and activation is rather small, but from my experience, far enough to go from the bottom of a Goldfish's hull to its balloon.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: naufrago on June 26, 2013, 05:18:43 pm
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, could you update the stats of the Flare Gun on the weapons page? Seems to be out of date.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on July 29, 2013, 11:44:09 am
http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/

It seems like there are lots of mistakes in the AoE numbers. Among other things, the mortar should have 8 according to the 1.3 patch notes and the mine launcher should have 60. There's also no way the merc has 6.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on July 29, 2013, 11:52:25 am
Yup it definitely looks like the aoe numbers have been shuffled.

Also the mine launcher damage stats are higher than the original patch notes.  Have they been changed recently?

I did notice that the light Mortar's aoe and direct damage numbers seem to have been swapped.  Has that been changed as well?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: awkm on July 29, 2013, 12:25:39 pm
When you see errors in that spreadsheet, please PM or email me.

That stuff is updated manually by hand.  Honestly, it's one of the lowest priority items I have on my docket so any help I can get pin-pointing exactly what the errors are would be very very helpful and much appreciated.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Watchmaker on August 14, 2013, 04:33:02 pm
Several people seemed confused about exactly what Burst Rounds affects, so I'll set the record straight:

The +50% area-of-effect increases the radius of explosions (secondary damage on projectile weapons) and the size of particles (the flamethrower).  It does not affect raycast weapons whatsoever.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on August 14, 2013, 04:35:48 pm
Wow, thanks for this.

I always thought it didn't effect flamethrower but did effect ray casts.

The more you know!
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Kharthynogus on August 20, 2013, 03:22:05 pm
I've read over this a few times and I have a question, but before I ask it, I need some clarification.

Damage transfer only happens when the component you hit has already been destroyed, right?
Then the damage first transfers to the armor (unless it was the armor that was hit) and then to the hull, right?
And a multiplier isn't applied until it gets to the component that it actually does damage to, after which it applies the multiplier for that component, right?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on August 20, 2013, 03:35:16 pm
This is a complicated question but as far as I understand, the hull works differently from other components so this requires us to look at them separately.

For regular components:  damage will only transfer to the hull component (read this as armor or permahull depending on the state) from another component (ie the balloon) if that component (ie balloon) is already destroyed. So if you shoot at a destroyed balloon the damage will transfer to the hull component with the proper hull component modifier (this is a lot easier to conceptualize when you consider a destroyed balloon, gun, engine etc is turned into part of the hull hotbox. 

If however your shot breaks the armor of a ship, its damage can be split. Assuming the direct damage is enough to break the armor, the AOE damage will apply to the permahull though I'm uncertain which damage modifier it inherits.

Hope that helps answer your question.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Kharthynogus on August 20, 2013, 04:09:57 pm
Alright, cool. I think I understand now.

So, if I hit something, the direct damage affects only the component which was directly hit, but the AoE damage affects the component which was hit and anything else within the radius, but only once per each component. What I'm wondering is, if AoE damage that hits a component that is destroyed transfers to the armor (and then to the hull if the armor is gone), then does that mean that AoE damage could potentially affect the hull more than once?

For example, let's say Weapon X deals 50 Direct and 50 AoE damages. The SS Roflsauce has had an engine and a gun destroyed. If Weapon X manages to hit the hull directly (50 direct + 50 AoE) and then the destroyed engine and gun are within AoE radius (50 AoE each), then does that mean a total of 200 damage (50 direct + 150 AoE) hits the hull? (I've ignored modifiers for the sake of simplicity.)
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on August 20, 2013, 04:12:52 pm
AoE can only hit the hull once. The destroyed components act basically like extensions of the already existing hull hitbox instead of extra hitboxes, so yeah, it can only hit once.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Letus on August 20, 2013, 04:37:52 pm
AoE can only hit the hull once. The destroyed components act basically like extensions of the already existing hull hitbox instead of extra hitboxes, so yeah, it can only hit once.

Which is why the Lumberjack, with its insane AoE, is not a real killer.  If it weren't the case, the AoE Flechette would be dealing 600 Flechette (or after math, 120 damage) per shot once the Balloon and Hull Armor is down to the hull...and most ships but the Galleon (as hitting the top of the Balloon on the Galleon does little AoE to the hull itself...)
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Kharthynogus on August 20, 2013, 05:36:45 pm
Ah, okay.

So, if Weapon X had hit the destroyed engine directly, then the AoE still would only apply once to the hull?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on August 20, 2013, 05:40:57 pm
Yes, exactly.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on August 30, 2013, 02:30:58 pm
Let's say you have charged loaded and the gun buffed. I was under the impression that that would give a 56% boost (1.3*1.2=1.56) in damage per shot, but I've been told that the modifiers actually get added together, which would result in only a 50% boost. Is that the case?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on September 08, 2013, 03:10:32 pm
So why does the Raycast line get crooked when the ship the gun is fired from is moving?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: naufrago on September 09, 2013, 12:26:43 am
So why does the Raycast line get crooked when the ship the gun is fired from is moving?

To the best of my understanding, it has to do with relative velocities and how they're kind of ignored with raycast weapons. While a raycast weapon travels near instantaneously, it's treated as though it has a finite muzzle velocity, and follows the path it would take if it actually travelled with that finite velocity. It just travels along that path near instantaneously.

So let's say your raycast gun has a muzzle velocity of 200m/s. If you're moving up at a rate of 5m/s and your target is 600m away, you will need to aim 15m below where your target actually is in order to hit it (EDIT: Because it would take 3 secs for the weapon to travel 600m with a muzzle velocity of 200m/s, so 5m/s * 3s = 15m). The thing is, your opponent's velocity doesn't matter for the gatling. You could both be moving up at 5m/s such that your relative velocities are 0m/s, but you'll still have to aim 15m below it to hit. It's fairly counterintuitive, and kind of ignores physics in that regard.

The devs made sure that all the guns inherit the velocity of their ship properly. Unfortunately, that doesn't work too well for raycast weapons. Oops.

NOTE: I could be wrong about some aspects, it's been a while since I've actually fired a gatling. I did jump into the sandbox real quick to test my theory, though, and I think it checks out.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Eukari on September 09, 2013, 01:37:10 am
So does that explain why, instead of needing to lead targets, the gatling actually needs to fire behind them? (if you're both traveling in the same direction) I've always wondered about that since, as you said, it's very counter-intuitive.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on September 09, 2013, 07:55:16 am
So why does the Raycast line get crooked when the ship the gun is fired from is moving?

To the best of my understanding, it has to do with relative velocities and how they're kind of ignored with raycast weapons. While a raycast weapon travels near instantaneously, it's treated as though it has a finite muzzle velocity, and follows the path it would take if it actually travelled with that finite velocity. It just travels along that path near instantaneously.
...

Quoted only part that actually answeres my question. Why are Raycast weapons treated this way? And on that topic, that seems to be the only difference between raycast and hitscan gameplay wise.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: naufrago on September 09, 2013, 03:22:06 pm
So does that explain why, instead of needing to lead targets, the gatling actually needs to fire behind them? (if you're both traveling in the same direction) I've always wondered about that since, as you said, it's very counter-intuitive.

In the case where you're both traveling the same direction and not turning, yes.


Why are Raycast weapons treated this way?
The devs made sure that all the guns inherit the velocity of their ship properly. Unfortunately, that doesn't work too well for raycast weapons. Oops.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on September 09, 2013, 04:13:56 pm
So why does the Raycast line get crooked when the ship the gun is fired from is moving?

To the best of my understanding, it has to do with relative velocities and how they're kind of ignored with raycast weapons. While a raycast weapon travels near instantaneously, it's treated as though it has a finite muzzle velocity, and follows the path it would take if it actually travelled with that finite velocity. It just travels along that path near instantaneously.
...

Quoted only part that actually answeres my question. Why are Raycast weapons treated this way? And on that topic, that seems to be the only difference between raycast and hitscan gameplay wise.

Another difference worth mentioning: burst rounds don't affect their AoE.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Dutch Vanya on September 09, 2013, 09:53:57 pm
So why do the gatling gun and carronade not use physical projectiles?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Echoez on September 09, 2013, 10:40:44 pm
So why do the gatling gun and carronade not use physical projectiles?

They would spawn too many objects at once and in quick succession, can't say that's good for the frame rate.

Especially the carronades that fire at least 20 pellets all at once.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: RearAdmiralZill on September 10, 2013, 09:13:44 am
So why do the gatling gun and carronade not use physical projectiles?

They would spawn too many objects at once and in quick succession, can't say that's good for the frame rate.

Especially the carronades that fire at least 20 pellets all at once.

Pretty sure its in the 30-40 range, actually. I think Frago mentioned it to me before, but if that's wrong, blame Shink.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Echoez on September 10, 2013, 09:22:49 am
Pretty sure its in the 30-40 range, actually. I think Frago mentioned it to me before, but if that's wrong, blame Shink.

Well, according to Incediary ignition chances, you would mostly be correct, now that I remember it properly, incediary gives you an 20% ingition chance per hit, the average I got from the Heavy carronade were 8-12 fire stacks at once, so it probably fires 50 pellets.

Now imagine that gun spawning 50 actual, lightining fast projectiles. xD
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on September 18, 2013, 10:04:25 am
The gat only spawns one projectile at a time though. Can't believe having 5 projectiles more per second on the screen would hurt fps more than the mortar projectiles which have smoke trailing them.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on September 22, 2013, 09:58:25 pm
http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/

The weapons spreadsheet is in dire need of an update. Seems like there are more old stats than current ones on it at this point.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Alistair MacBain on September 23, 2013, 02:56:13 am
Probably because most guns got changed in the last patch and the new numbers arent included yet.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on September 23, 2013, 08:24:01 am
(there were more old stats than new ones before this patch too)
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on September 23, 2013, 03:45:15 pm
(there were more old stats than new ones before this patch too)
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Gambrill on September 24, 2013, 10:09:49 am
If the Armour of a ship is down and you hit it with a Heavy Flak Cannon, The primary damage hits it and eals its damage. does the secondary damage it too oris Secondary just damaging everything else around it?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on September 24, 2013, 10:42:25 am
The primary and secondary damage of the heavy flak cannon will both do damage the permahull if the heavy flak round hits an unarmored hull.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Gambrill on September 26, 2013, 07:54:37 am
I thought so! :D time to gloat at a friend :P
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on October 29, 2013, 03:41:50 pm
So, new question: How do the modifiers work, especially buff? B - Basedamage; D - Final damage; A - Ammo modifier; buff - Buff modifier (so either 1 for no buff or 1,2 for buffed); C - Component modifier/ Damage type modifier

Is it
D=B*A*buff*C
or
D=B*(A+buff+C-2)

or something entirely different?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on October 29, 2013, 04:13:38 pm
I'm pretty certain that it works like this:

D=(B1*C1+B2*C2)*(A+buff)

So for example, a buffed, charged merc against hull armour would do this:

D=(75*1.5+300*0.2)*(0.3+1.2)

Which comes out to 258.75.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on November 01, 2013, 07:01:21 pm
I'm pretty certain that it works like this:

D=(B1*C1+B2*C2)*(A+buff)

So for example, a buffed, charged merc against hull armour would do this:

D=(75*1.5+300*0.2)*(0.3+1.2)

Which comes out to 258.75.

Wait isn't it this? D=(75*1.5+300*0.2) * (1.3*1.2)  I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on November 01, 2013, 07:04:32 pm
According to Cullen (found this out via Echo), the buff and ammo modifiers are added, not multiplied.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on November 01, 2013, 07:46:40 pm
Skeptical am I.

I might need to devise some tests.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Echoez on November 01, 2013, 07:52:16 pm
Wait people realy didn't know of this?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Myroc on November 01, 2013, 07:54:03 pm
So, with the change to raycast weapons in 1.3.3, do Lesmok rounds actually work with raycast weapons now? Previously they were useless on gatlings and carronades since they were unaffected by muzzle speed and projectile lift. Has this changed?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on November 01, 2013, 07:58:01 pm
Yes, changed the patch before this one.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Captain Smollett on November 01, 2013, 08:05:26 pm
Wait people realy didn't know of this?

Your saying the charged plus buff modifier is 1.5 instead of 1.56. That's counter intuitive to me. It seems the modifiers should multiply against each other not be additive. 20% more than 100 and 30% more than that is 156, not 150.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: N-Sunderland on November 01, 2013, 08:16:08 pm
Wait people realy didn't know of this?

Your saying the charged plus buff modifier is 1.5 instead of 1.56. That's counter intuitive to me. It seems the modifiers should multiply against each other not be additive. 20% more than 100 and 30% more than that is 156, not 150.

I thought it was really odd too, but I'd imagine that Cullen would know how it works.

Unless Eric wants to go ahead and clarify.

Yes, changed the patch before this one.

Rather, the patch before the patch before the patch before this one (1.3) ;)

Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on November 02, 2013, 03:20:34 am
Well, that's actually why I'm asking. Additive mods would mean buff has the same absolute, but better relative effect on greased than charged rounds. Multiplikative mods would mean the same relative effect but better absolute effect on charged than greased rounds.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on November 05, 2013, 11:58:13 am
[...] the aoe damage reduces as it moves farther away from [the] impacts.

Is that true?
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: DJ Tipz N Trix on June 24, 2014, 01:55:13 pm
The weapons page still says flamethrower has 300 ammo when it only has 250.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Watchmaker on August 20, 2014, 11:00:42 am
I don't think an official response ever got posted for this question, so I'm posting one:

Multiple sources of % modifiers (buff hammer + charged rounds, buff hammer + kerosene, etc) are additive.  That is, the final value, whether we're talking about engine thrust or shot damage or whatever, is

(base value) * ( 1 + (modifier1 + modifier2 + ...) )

This applies equally to negative modifiers; Impact Bumpers is (I think) -60% thrust, and buff hammer gives +25% thrust, so if both are active you have 65% (1 - 0.35) of your engine's normal thrust.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Alistair MacBain on August 20, 2014, 11:15:39 am
Is this the same for component modifiers for damage types?
If its the same it would be like this: base damage*(buff+ammo+component)
Or is the component damage added elsewhere?

Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Watchmaker on August 20, 2014, 11:39:12 am
Taking damage into account the formula would be:

(base value) * (damage modifier) * (1 + skillModifier1 + skillModifier2 +...)

The damage modifier is linear between 0 and 1 for engines and the balloon (just health/maxHealth).  For guns, it's (health/maxHealth)*0.5 + 0.5.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on August 22, 2014, 01:20:36 pm
Ooooh! I thought this thread was forgotten. This specific question actually did get answered at some point, maybe when I asked ingame  :P

So to the AoE thing... do 'splosions do less damage to stuff the further it's away from the epicenter? (quoting awkm on that nomencalture) Reading the OP it really seemed (to me) like full secondary damage was applied on all components caught in the AoE.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Omniraptor on August 22, 2014, 02:24:06 pm
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3461.msg61153.html#msg61153
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on August 23, 2014, 01:16:43 pm
Thx omni!

@ Allistair in case Watchmaker didnt answer your question with that post (did he?),
I'm very confident damage type modifiers are multiplied after everything else is calculated, so it'd look like this:
(final damage to component)=[(primary damage)*(1+buff+ammo)]*(primary damage type)+[(secondary damage)*(1+buff+ammo)]*(secondary damagetype)
So it's the same as written earlier in this thread (by sunderland I believe).
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Alistair MacBain on August 23, 2014, 01:39:22 pm
Thats what watchmaker said ;).
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Sprayer on August 23, 2014, 04:00:48 pm
Oh I thought he was talking about effectiveness of damaged components.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Kanharn on November 18, 2014, 02:18:29 am
Good Guide.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: Yor Trison on February 08, 2017, 02:57:03 pm
Could some one from Muse explain how the physics of the harpoon rope work?
What causes it to detach?
How is force applied to the harpooning and the harpooned ship?
What airship properties (drag, mass, impact location) effect the harpoon physics?
Is there a timer between when the harpoon strikes and when the rope goes "tight"?
Is the thrust of your engines lessened while harpooned?

There seem to be a lot of variables in play for this mechanic and I am not sure how they all work together.


This is complicated question but here is the tl;dr version:

  • A harpoon will detach automatically at 120 seconds
  • Max length is 600m before breaking
  • The harpoon will apply a constant pulling force (right when harpoon makes contact with hull) from the ship that fired the harpoon to the point where the harpoon is attached.  Movement and overall affect is similar to if the two ship bodies are afloat in water (air is also a liquid) but of course with the additional Y-axis movement.  It responds 100% accurately to how force would affect these bodies in liquid based on the two points of attachment as well as the drag profile of each body
  • Engine force output is not affected

With that said... it's extremely difficult to predict the movement on your own.  It also takes into account engine movement and will further augment the outcome of these effects, making them even harder to predict.  We're looking into simplifying this system to make it less real and more gamey.  Easier to predict and actually do something that you'd like it to e.g. maintain range instead of pulling all of the time (because that's not always helpful).

However, I've heard that from the recent pull force reduction that harpoons are useful in some situations.  Although this is a small subset of the player set that can actually use them effectively.

Nothing is set in stone right now.  It's a decently sized feature request.

I would love to use the Harpoon gun not only for a role playing 'wailer' but also in the context of a truly competitive Pyra. I used it in a few of my beginning matches but the issue is the that it would drop before we got to them rendering it useless. I admit that  I haven't used it much recently but I would love to see it used more often.
Title: Re: Firing mechanism and damage explanation
Post by: HamsterIV on February 09, 2017, 06:39:44 pm
Yor Trison, keep in mind that was awkm's explanation back in 2013. The harpoon mechanics have changed a bit since then. It was always unwieldy and often a waste of space. During the glory days of the harpoon it would stay attached until you fired a 2nd harpoon and act like a bungee chord between the two ships. Most of the time the harpoon will make both ships flounder about with no direction control, but if you setup the situation just right you could use the harpoon to fling enemy ships into walls. Sadly the game physics don't allow for that level of stupidity anymore.