Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: treseritops on August 20, 2013, 10:47:36 pm
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Hey I posted this in gameplay initially but I guess the discussion is better suited here.
I'm not too attached to any specific layout or any particular balancing but I think a good starting point is two small guns on front and that is it.
You can charge a pyra, galleon, squid, or mobula and strafe as you fly forward to be sure you're passing on the weak side of the enemy. Then turn as you pass to pull a maneuver similar to spinning on a deskchair rolling across a room.
I also would suggest the hull being stronger than a squid, and speed slower than a squid as well.
Eukari suggested making one of the sides a shield/heavily armored side. You could use your maneuverability to get in between an enemy and an ally perhaps.
It would need usage of the arrow keys and a,s,w,d but I think that would be part of the cost/benefit.
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A strafing ship is a major departure from our current ship movement model. I won't say it won't happen, but it's highly unlikely as we'll have to rethink how everything works including what WASD keys do when you're on a ship.
Interesting idea, though.
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You wouldn't have to really change much, just make the main engine push you sideways instead of forward, then you still have forward facing guns and pilot. Now, if you were thinking of going both forward and sideways, I don't know how that would work either
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You wouldn't have to really change much, just make the main engine push you sideways instead of forward, then you still have forward facing guns and pilot. Now, if you were thinking of going both forward and sideways, I don't know how that would work either
Wouldn't that...just be a Junker with everyone looking to the left?
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Maybe it's an idea to have a ship where the guns are mounted diagonally rather than a strafing ship.
As demonstrated here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wmJQtbw9K8
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When did the default definition of "strafing" become "moving sideways"? You can strafe in a straight line using the side mounts on any 'ship, some have more side mounts than others, some are faster and better suited for this tactic from others - it's really only applicable to a very fast ship attacking a slow ship (Squid vs. Galleon).
Drifting/sliding in an airship has inherent problems, the shape of the balloon and the empennage is designed to weathercock the 'ship. This is essential for moving through a fluid medium (such as air) because if you could slip sideways too easily it would be next-to impossible to steer or make any forward movement except with the prevailing wind direction. This is why sailing craft use a keel or weatherboard, and why small powered surface ships find it easier to hold the weather in heavy seas with a sail rigged from the mizzen mast.
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When did the default definition of "strafing" become "moving sideways"? You can strafe in a straight line using the side mounts on any 'ship, some have more side mounts than others, some are faster and better suited for this tactic from others - it's really only applicable to a very fast ship attacking a slow ship (Squid vs. Galleon).
Drifting/sliding in an airship has inherent problems, the shape of the balloon and the empennage is designed to weathercock the 'ship. This is essential for moving through a fluid medium (such as air) because if you could slip sideways too easily it would be next-to impossible to steer or make any forward movement except with the prevailing wind direction. This is why sailing craft use a keel or weatherboard, and why small powered surface ships find it easier to hold the weather in heavy seas with a sail rigged from the mizzen mast.
I would point more towards Muse's response on realism for this. I realize if you built a real airship and then built it to have strafing capabilities it would slide and be impossible to steer, but you can't fix an entire ship with a rubber mallet either.
And in regards to maneuverability only applying to slow vs. fast ship encounters I think that's false in more difficult matches. Positioning your ship is everything in matches, especially 3v3. If you have to take your strong side off the enemy to move your ship because you're suddenly in between 2 of the enemy ships you've lost a lot of ground.
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Awkm, I think I might have an idea I could show you on this topic. My drawing skills aren't the best, so I just stilized it. The idea is, that this ship would move sideways since the helm is turned around 90° to one side, positioned on a plateau a bit higher than the weapons. If the weapons would only be on one side, as shown below, this could be a fast moving but hardly ever turning ship with 3 light guns on one side.
Idea is that you could ram with the spear (?) in the front whilst shooting on another enemy. If there are only enemies on your front though, you had to choose whether you want to ram or to turn slowly. 3 sides would be vulnerable.
To the steering technique: it will be used just like a normal ship. R to accelerate, but you accelerate to the side. A and D to turn, the pilot just has to think if he wants to turn away from the enemy or towards him. Nothing has to be changed on the engine that is currently being used.
So it's kinda like a Junker but with a twist ("twist"). Just take a look at the images below.
(http://i.imgur.com/5nMCXiG.jpg) From the top.
(http://i.imgur.com/IddBkPt.jpg) From the side.
EDIT: I missed something. You could place the balloon repair spot top of the helm, on a bridge between those two balloons. Makes it a bit harder to repair.
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I'm really really fond of the idea. I wouldn't dare flying after a close inspection in practice mode, but I could see this working out and being a lot of fun :P Still, with 3 vulnerable sides it'd have to either be a squishy sniping platform - which I wouldn't think unusual - or strong like a Junker. In any case, I'd love to see this developed further! We'd likely have to lock it for Beginner's Games, because it'd lead to a hell of confusion, but other than that, it'd be fun ;)
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Thought of a mediocre to slow moving (top speed) ship with mediocre to high maneuverability and not that much hull. IF you should like the idea of sideways movement.
Something like that:
(http://i.imgur.com/zXXRi2f.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/wRjUt9I.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/08U9KoK.jpg)
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I like it, though I'm a little leery of the "all guns facing one way" thing; it makes it seem too much like a sideways Mobula. What if the third gun faced the opposite way? A single light gun isn't going to do a lot of damage, but it would make the slow turning speed a little more palatable.
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Take a look at the second design, the gun is pointing diagonally.
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Take a look at the second design, the gun is pointing diagonally.
Right, but I think my point still stands- the Mobula already fills the "all the guns point the same way" niche. I like your idea for a fast, slow-turning ship that specializes in gunning on the go, but I think having every weapon face one way will be far too restricting. Every fight would involve you circle-strafing the enemy in a counter-clockwise direction; there would be no other tactic you could take, except with a sniper build that doesn't require much movement. The Mobula works because all the guns face forward, a natural direction to move.
This ship seems to be a blend of the Galleon's broadsides with the Squid's fast movement, which is great! What I mean was, to move the forward-left facing gun to face forward-right. You still have a blindspot behind and to the rear-right, but you're not quite so helpless. If you have to peel off an attack or something, or an enemy pops up in an unexpected area you can still offer some kind of resistance. Again, it also separates itself so that it's not just "The Mobula, but everything faces left!" (I'm not saying that's what you're saying, that's just what my guess for how it would turn out)
Designing new ships is tough- you have to make them unique enough so that they're not treading the same ground as existing ones, but also not so niche that they're only good for one thing. I can see this ship being good at a couple of different things- a fast-moving, hard hitting support ship (with a Hwacha/Light Carronade on the left, you could zoom in, pop their balloon and wreck their guns and then fly off while your teammate makes the kill), a finisher (ally breaks their hull, you zoom in and cap them off) or a long-range support (floating just out of the danger zone, circling around and picking off targets).
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What about that then? I can see a problem with the captain looking behind though.
You have 3 weak sides, agreed. But you can escape whilst still shooting at the enemy before he gets on any side, since you can (different from the mobula) fly sideways.
On the second layout I posted you could even shoot them if they would be passing you on the right side (front) of the ship.
(http://i.imgur.com/xttz0RU.jpg)
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Your latest change makes it feel much more balanced, with the light gun pointing "backwards". The 3 blind sides always bugged me somewhat and made me worry about the ship being too defenseless, but this counters it somewhat. It'll still be somewhat easy to catch unawares, especially with the captain's blind spots, but now it'll be able to respond to an attack faster.
I'm somehow always imagining Rainers blueprint here with Lord Funpants concept art: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1785.msg38095.html#msg38095
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That's exactly what I meant; it looks awesome. Although, I just now noticed that you've got the helm pointing to the left...I think that might make it very hard for people to pilot. I know what you're going for, but I think having the helm point forward like normal, then just leave a good field of view to the left would work best. I mean, can't you just swivel 360 degrees on the helm anyway?
Sorry to be so picky; I really do think it's a good idea for a ship. :D
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Well the idea on the second blueprint/layout/design is that you're below the actual deck, so you can look around but there will be some massive pillars blocking your on certain angles. So that 360° look on the helm wouldn't be given anyway.
I think it's quite a nice idea to have the helm centered at where your battles should be held and sometimes looking where you're actually going.
Of course, this is a ship that would be really, REALLY hard to pilot. Let's be honest, it would take some practice to get used to it.
On the first blueprint you always see what everyone is doing, you don't have to look around, you automatically see the combat field and your crew likewise.
On the second blueprint you've got quite a look from another perspective, but I guess it might be easier to keep the guns aimed at the enemy - and of course being that close might introduce a new ambience!
And no, it's good you're so "picky", as you put it. That's the way things are being improved!
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You've got three decks- the upper catwalk between the balloons, the main deck of the ship and the lower deck. Across those three decks we need to place the helm, the main engine(s), the turning engine(s), the hull repair point, the balloon repair point, one heavy gun and two light guns. That's seven-ish points across the three decks.
What if we broke it down like this:
- Catwalk- Balloon repair point aft, port-side light gun at the front. This is where the secondary Engineer will end up being placed; they man the port light gun and keep the balloon repaired, and can jump down to the main deck quickly if there's an emergency.
- Main deck- Helm amidships, giving the Pilot a good view to the port and starboard sides of ship. Directly forward and back will be blocked by the support structures for the balloons and catwalk. The hull repair point is just in front of the helm, and the main engines (two, as with the Squid) are behind, hanging off the rear of the ship. The starboard/forward light gun is at the front of the ship on this deck. This deck is where the Pilot and primary Engineer will hang out, flying the ship and keeping it alive respectively. In an emergency, you have two people on the hull very quickly, and it gives the main Engineer easy access to the other two decks. The light gun is in reach if needed.
- Bottom deck-The final deck houses the two turning engines aft and the heavy gun amidships on the port side. This is where the Gunner will go, obviously sitting in the heavy gun. They can also do quick repairs on the turning engines if needed.
I know you wanted to put the helm on the bottom deck, but I just think that's too much of a change. Even veteran pilots would struggle to fly a ship they can't see in front or behind at all. I think by placing it on the more open main deck, but by blocking the view fore and aft you still reinforce the "The most important direction is left" while not totally throwing people for a loop. I'd be worried about 90-95% of captains who'd fly it once, go "That's really hard!" and never touch it again.
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Now that I think about it, I wonder if it would be better to take the Galleon/Squid crossover to its logical conclusion. Same basic layout as above, but with some tweaks:
- Catwalk- Balloon repair point located near front of ship, turning engines located at the back.
- Main deck- Helm in the center on slightly raised platform, main engines at the rear of the ship, hull repair point forward, single light gun facing to the left.
- Bottom deck- Two heavy guns, once facing starboard and one port.
Here's my thinking- the ship's design is meant to create a vessel with great speed and acceleration, but that turns very slowly. It's typical attack would be to fly by an enemy, empty its guns, then zoom off before the enemy ship can retaliate. The current setup works quite well for that, but the asymmetry with the heavy gun makes me very uncomfortable. As I said before, limiting most of your firepower to just one side is very restricting, especially when one of the hallmarks of the ship would be its slow turning speed. The other asymmetrical ships- the Pyramidion and the Mobula- focus most of their firepower in a logical manner. The Mobula is 100% forward firing, but that's a natural direction- much of the time you're flying toward the enemy, so it's easy to get a firing arc. For the Pyra, which only has guns on two sides, it also focuses on the frontal guns. I can't remember the last time I flew on a Pyra where the side guns were more than an afterthought.
The two basic layouts currently are focus-forward (Goldfish, Pyramidion, Spire, Mobula) or broadsides (Galleon, Junker). The Squid is the odd man out, with its forward/right/rear configuration. It's also the most agile ship, which makes up for its odd placement. In fact, that's why I think a totally asymmetric build on this ship would struggle- a good Squid would easily be able to dodge its left gun and tear you apart. By balancing its firepower to the left and right, you still keep it in the role of a strafing ship- you can only damage the enemy if you're passing them. But, you limit its blindsides to the front and back- say you get attacked from behind, and you can simply hit the gas and pull out of range quickly. If the attack comes from the front, you can either back up or try and dodge above or below the enemy ship. You're still vulnerable, but less likely to be a sitting duck. (and with the light gun to the left, that's still your "kill side")
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Great discussion guys, i like seeing new ship designs and i'm working on one myself! @Eukari it just really bothers me that you said the mobula is asymmetrical, it really isn't, unlike the squid and spire.
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@Eukari it just really bothers me that you said the mobula is asymmetrical, it really isn't, unlike the squid and spire.
I suppose that's technically correct.* What I meant more was that it only has guns on one side, while every other ship has at least two directions to fire in. My point was that it worked for the Mobula because the one side it had guns on was the front; it's far more natural and flexible to keep your front pointed at an enemy than to keep just one side (right or left) on them. The original suggestion was basically for a left-facing Mobula build, and I was trying to explain why I think that wouldn't work very well.
I may have misspoke- the truly asymmetrical ships are the Pyramidion and the Squid; the Pyra is blind to starboard and the Squid can't fire to port. (not being able to fire to the rear or front doesn't really count) Both of those ships have advantages that outweigh the weakness of their asymmetry- the Pyra's main power comes from its front guns, with the side guns relegated to support/secondary fire; and the Squid is fast and agile enough that it can easily keep its guns on pretty much anything but another Squid. I don't consider the Spire to be asymmetrical for the same reason I don't consider the Goldfish to be such- their main direction of attack is to the front, with the side guns being secondary.
*The best kind of correct.