Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => The Classroom => Q&A => Topic started by: syst on March 04, 2013, 09:03:10 am
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I'm playing this game for a week now and i just can't stop because it is so awesome! I have one question though which you will probably find dumb. I dont really grasp at how different types of damage from different guns are applied to enemy ships.
1) Lets imagine player shooting from Barking Dog (Direct 12 Flechette, AoE 8 Shatter). I understand that in order to damage baloons you should hit them. But what happens with AoE Shatter damage? Is it applied to something? In other case: what if i hit hull with this gun - will all Flechette damage go to waste?
2) Okay, now lets shoot an enemy with full armor with Scylla Double-Barreled Mortar (Direct 60 Explosive, AoE 20 Explosive). Explosives only damage hull and it is still protected by armor - what will happen? Will it drain enemy armor but in very slow rate?
3) To damage weapon or engines you should hit them directly with Shatter damage, right? But what about the damaging hull/armor - you should shot at any part of the ship besides baloon?
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1) On the Weapons page of the Gameplay section of the main GOIO website there is a table (http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/) with weapons stats, including the range of the AoE damage. Unfortunately the table is broken at present. If you hit the baloon with a carronade shot, the direct damage is done to the baloon, the AoE damage is done to the baloon and every other component within the AoE range of the hit. There's another table (http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/) shows the damage modifiers for each damage type against each component type. Your damage does not go to waste. If you destroy the baloon you get pass-through damage which is dealt directly to the hull and bypasses armour (that's my understanding, a Dev can confirm).
2) Check the damage table (http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/) to see the modifier for Explosive damage against the armour (x0.3). A direct hit to the armour is doing 0.3(60+20) = 24 damage to the armour. If you were on a Pyra this is why you'd pair a hull damaging weapon like the Scylla with an armour stripping weapon like the Whirlwind.
3) To damage the armour/hull aim at any part of the hull other than the baloon.
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1) On the Weapons page of the Gameplay section of the main GOIO website there is a table (http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/) with weapons stats, including the range of the AoE damage. Unfortunately the table is broken at present. If you hit the baloon with a carronade shot, the direct damage is done to the baloon, the AoE damage is done to the baloon and every other component within the AoE range of the hit. There's another table (http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/) shows the damage modifiers for each damage type against each component type. Your damage does not go to waste. If you destroy the baloon you get pass-through damage which is dealt directly to the hull and bypasses armour (that's my understanding, a Dev can confirm).
2) Check the damage table (http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/) to see the modifier for Explosive damage against the armour (x0.3). A direct hit to the armour is doing 0.3(60+20) = 24 damage to the armour. If you were on a Pyra this is why you'd pair a hull damaging weapon like the Scylla with an armour stripping weapon like the Whirlwind.
3) To damage the armour/hull aim at any part of the hull other than the baloon.
Beat me to it...
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A better way to think of the two damage values for each gun is as "primary" and "secondary".
On hitscan weapons (the carronades and gatling gun), both units of damage are applied to whatever is actually struck. The carronade has some additional consideration in that it fires a number of simulated pellets, each of which is handled independently.
The flamethrower is broadly similar, though since it shoots out simulated spheres each particle can hypothetically strike multiple parts (also the flamethrower is currently configured to only have primary damage, so the distinction is pointless).
On weapons with fully simulated projectiles (basically everything else), primary damage is dealt to the part hit by the projectile and secondary is dealt in a sphere around it (scaling down slightly with distance). Weapons with arming time do not deal their secondary damage before the arming time is up.
EDIT: Hubert PIckle is correct otherwise. Hitting any destroyed part transfers the hit to the armor/hull, before any of the multipliers are applied.
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im confused about this part
'Hitting any destroyed part transfers the hit to the armor/hull, before any of the multipliers are applied.'
does that mean that if the lumberjack hit a weapon and broke it, then fired and hit that broken weapon all of its shatter damage would be transfered to the hull with out any modifiers?.
so in other words it would damage the hull more for it to shoot at a broken weapon than it would do by just fireing at the hull?
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I interpreted that as meaning if the lumberjack destroys the balloon the extra damage is applied to the hull, but not at the damage modifier for the balloon - the damage modifier is reset for the hull to flechette vs. hull modifier.
Lumberjack - 50 shatter, 300 flechette - against Balloon has (50x0.2) + (300x1.6) = 490 damage
If the balloon health was 190, so there's 300 extra damage.. then assuming primary damage is allocated first that leaves 300/1.6= 187.5 points flechette damage x 0.3 flechette vs. hull modifier = 56.25 points of pass-thru damage to the hull.
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Or does it pass-thru at 187.5 points? - Watchmaker, can you confirm with an example?
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why did you interpret it to mean the lumberjack damageing the balloon?
i thought its primary damage was shatter and its aoe is flettchet meaning that it should be aimed at ship components and not the balloon or its shatter damage goes to waste
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why did you interpret it to mean the lumberjack damageing the balloon?
Easier for the calculations.. if it hits a gun I have to consider the AoE spreading beyond the gun and being dissipated by the armour before any pass-thru. I've assumed a direct hit, square on the baloon with all the AoE damage being absorbed by the balloon.
Lumberjack - 50 shatter, 300 flechette AoE
Ignoring the AoE, that's 50 x 2.0 = 100 points of damage to a gun. Assume that 50 points is enough to finish off the gun that leaves 50/2.0 = 25 points of pass-thru damage. Or if the shatter vs. hull modifier is applied, 25x0.2 = 5 points. Or if the original shatter vs. gun modifier applies that's 50 points.
I still need Watchmaker to confirm if it's 25 or 5 or 50 points of damage in this example. I'm really not clear how the modifier works with pass-thru. My best guess is that it's 5, that the initial modifier is removed and the relevant vs. hull modifier is applied.
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I'm pretty positive that modifier pass through is based on hull damage multiplier until whatever its striking is rebuilt then that modifier is applied.
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I recall that this was answered by a dev on the old forums. Any damage done to a broken component spills over to the hull/armor using the appropriate hull/armor multiplyers.
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It was discussed here (http://gunsoficarus.com/community/forumarchive/discussion/comment/13236#Comment_13236) and here (http://gunsoficarus.com/community/forumarchive/discussion/853).
It suggests that in my last example the pass-thru damage would be 5 points.
However, I'm now really confused as in the second linked thread a CA suggests (just before the thread turns into a ****ing contest) that the pass-thru is applied to armour first and not directly to the hull.
Can a Dev clarify?
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now im more confused. is the passed on damage modified like a normal hull hit would be or not?
if it is then thats basicly all my questions answerd but if its unmodified damage wouldnt that lead to certen guns dealing to much damage to the hull by hitting broken components instead?
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I think part of the problem is that any clarification to date has been filtered through a CA, which is a bit like Chineese whispers.
My current understanding is the same as yours Ccrack..
- The damage is applied to the component using the base damage with vs. component modifier.
- Any surplus damage is applied to the hull and calculated from the base damage modified by the vs. hull modifier.
My confusion is now whether it's the hull or the armour that takes the pass-thru, because the clarification in the threads on the old forum has only confused me more.
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i guess this goes some ways to explaining why a carranade goldfish was blowing away massive chunks of my hull before i even got near the ground
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i guess this goes some ways to explaining why a carranade goldfish was blowing away massive chunks of my hull before i even got near the ground
most likely charged rounds.... I was killing pretty effectively using a heavy clip/charged rounds setup
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well i know the heavy carranade is effective at bursting ballons in only a few shots and can take out components just as easly, but i was supprised at how much damage it was dealing to my hull. it was basicly like being hit constantly by a gatling but doing damage in big chunks instead of continuasly
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Hopefully we get dev clarification but I'm almost positive spill over damage goes to armor. It makes sense if you think about it since in essence it's the same component and hull health can't be damaged while armor is up. The hull damage from carronade goldfish was due to the massive armor damage by a carronade prior to the last hot fix causing some shots to break the balloon, spill over, break the armor, spill over, and do damage to the hull.
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would expect something designed to pop balloons would be pretty piss against armor, but im not a dev so...
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Overflow damage on a single hit does not transfer.
Subsequent hits transfer from the component that was hit to the "hull component" - meaning they apply damage to armor first, if any remains.
We've been unclear in the past on the terms for the two health bars on the hull (I try to refer to them as armor and health), which is probably part of the confusion.
Each hit (projectile, explosion, gatling or carronade ray/pellet) deals its damage to a single location, in a lump. Transferred hits function exactly as if you actually hit, say, a hull hitbox instead of a balloon hitbox. None of the balloon/engine/gun multipliers are applied; multipliers for hull armor or health are applied according to the hull's current state.
Note that there is a slightly weird case where a single hit deals more damage than remaining hull armor. Currently, in this case, the base damage is multiplied by the armor modifiers, and any overflow of that modified value is applied directly to hull health.
Also, for the record: there was a data bug in the original release of 1.1.4 that caused the Flechette damage type (the one used by carronades and other balloon-killers) to deal slightly less than twice as much damage to armor as was intended. This has since been fixed.
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so just to be clear, if a rocket was to hit a broken component. would it do the exact same ammount of damage that it would if it hit the hull directly? or would it be more/less ?
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It should be identical to hitting the hull directly.
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Thank you Watchmaker, that's the clearest description that's been given on this subject.
A destroyed component effectively ceases to exist as far as it stopping/absorbing damage occurs and the target box for that destroyed component becomes part of the "hull component" target box.
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indeed, thank you watchmaker.
i was allways a little conserned when takeing out weapons useing the gatling because i was unsure if i was dealing any damage to the hull or not after the weapon had broken, and i like to keep fireing at the broken weapon to make it a pain in the arse for the engis to fix it.
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Let me clear some stuff up.
Types of firing mechanisms:
- Raycast—A straight line of a certain range is projected from the barrel point. If this line intersects a hitbox, a hit will be registered. No projectile is fired in actually world space. Guns that are raycast include the gatling and carronade. Raycast weapons are not affected by muzzle speed or gravity.
- Projectile—A projectile is spawn in world space and shot through the air according to several variables along a ballistic arc. If said projectile collides with a hitbox, a hit will be registered. Most of the guns in the game are projectile based.
- Particle—Particles are weird and it's only the flamethrower for now. They spread, they rise, they act like particles and they're weird. Did I say that already? Just deal with it :P
Important variables affecting firing mechanism
- Gravity—How much gravity is applied to a projectile, more gravity the more quickly its arc will drop.
- Muzzle Speed—How fast the projectile is traveling in m/s. Muzzle speed and gravity are related in that if you have lots of gravity but high muzzle speed, the arc will be very wide and the projectile will travel farther before significant drop occurs. High gravity with low muzzle speed will cause the the projectile to drop quickly. Imagine a horizontal force (muzzle speed) vs. a vertical force (gravity) because that's just how it works. Physics 101.
- Jitter—A number in degrees that is randomly selected from 0 to the max jitter allowed for that gun each time a raycast or projectile is spawned. The initial rotation of said raycast or projectile will inherit this randomly generated jitter from 0 to max jitter. This is to simulate recoil. Yeah it's hacky, trust me we know and we're not happy with it, but we never had time to do recoil for real. We're working on it and trying to fix this soon.
- Arming Time—A number in seconds where if projectile hits before arming time is reached, only primary damage is applied. Therefore, full damage potential range is Arming Time * Muzzle Speed. Lumberjack and Heavy Flak have arming time.
Primary Secondary Dmg
- Primary—Will apply damage to the part that is hit. May penetrate slightly based on penetration (in seconds, penetration * muzzle speed = distance penetrated, only for projectile weapons. This number is either 0 or very very small so don't worry.).
- Secondary—Once projectile stops moving (post penetration), secondary damage will be applied.
- Area of Effect—The radius in meters of possible secondary dmg area of effect. Components caught in this range will have secondary damage applied. Epicenter is where the projectile stops moving post penetration.
And Alex (Watchmaker, and on of our talented programmers) covers the damage transfer stuff:
Overflow damage on a single hit does not transfer.
Subsequent hits transfer from the component that was hit to the "hull component" - meaning they apply damage to armor first, if any remains.
We've been unclear in the past on the terms for the two health bars on the hull (I try to refer to them as armor and health), which is probably part of the confusion.
Each hit (projectile, explosion, gatling or carronade ray/pellet) deals its damage to a single location, in a lump. Transferred hits function exactly as if you actually hit, say, a hull hitbox instead of a balloon hitbox. None of the balloon/engine/gun multipliers are applied; multipliers for hull armor or health are applied according to the hull's current state.
Note that there is a slightly weird case where a single hit deals more damage than remaining hull armor. Currently, in this case, the base damage is multiplied by the armor modifiers, and any overflow of that modified value is applied directly to hull health.
And to clarify, mechanical components that are dead also transfer damage to hull. E.g. the front gun on a Goldfish will transfer damage dealt to it to the hull if the gun is dead. If this was not the case, you'll have a huge shield in the front of the ship to ram with etc.
I think that's the most of what's in play.
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wait so lesmok rounds wont really do anything on the gatling / carranade then?
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If you want long range with a gat/carronade, then my recommendation is heavy clip...
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I think heavy clip on Gat/Carronade reduces maximum range but increases effective range. That is your bullet will not travel as far, but more bullets will hit the target due to spray reduction. I ask gunners to take Lesmok on my blenderfish just so I can get that fist tap in, but they should immediately switch to heavy clip after that first hit.
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I think heavy clip on Gat/Carronade reduces maximum range but increases effective range. That is your bullet will not travel as far, but more bullets will hit the target due to spray reduction. I ask gunners to take Lesmok on my blenderfish just so I can get that fist tap in, but they should immediately switch to heavy clip after that first hit.
Interesting... I'll try that out next time
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well from the looks of it, the gatling isnt effected by muzzle speed so the heavy clip wont actully change its range at all
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well from the looks of it, the gatling isnt effected by muzzle speed so the heavy clip wont actully change its range at all
But by reducing the spread/jitter, it increases the effective range..
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The spread on the Whirlwind is such that increasing its max range with lesmok wouldn't be very helpful, because of the small number of hits you'd actually get.
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Rayscan weapons ie carronade and gattling aren't affected by changes in lift or bullet speed from ammo types
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Perhaps it is under the wrong topic however its has to do with the damage system.
I encountered a player a while back who claims that there is soft points in the ship's armor. For example according to him the goldfish has stronger armor on the sides than the front and back.
I guess this was just nonsense but it can not hurt to ask if there is an ounce of truth in it? :P
Even if it is not true, it is a cool idea, If you were to build an armored airships would you not try to reduce the weight by for example have stronger armor on the sides than on the bottom?
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While this is not true per se, it is much easier and less risky to attack the goldfish from the side than the front.
Not only will you be facing a light gun instead of a heavy gun you'll have a much larger surface area to aim at when shooting the broadside and hence an easier time getting the kill.