Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Kuratius on August 07, 2013, 06:00:05 pm
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I haven't been playing much (still relatively new to the game), but what's up with the matchmaking system in GOI?
Pretty much everyone I've played against with my friends (who also only started playing this around the same time as I did) was really, really bad.
Currently I've won 22 out of 24 matches in total (that's roughly 91.66 % of matches) , and a lot the time the enemy didn't even get through our ships armor.
It's not even really a challenge, seriously. We just keep having completely flawless victiories where we don't even die once and just obliterate the enemy.
I mean, we've only been playing the pyramidion and squid (Pyramidion+Pyramidion and Pyramidion+Squid were the setups we've been using most of the time), but are random players really that bad or is it that difficult to coordinate efficiently if you don't know each other?
Does the matchmaking system currently have any features that support bringing together players with a roughly equal amount of skill?
Because if not, that's something that definitely NEEDS to get implemented, otherwise those who keep losing will get frustrated and those who keep winning aren't presented with any kind of real challenge.
A ranking system of some sort that supports the option of matchmaking based on ranking would solve this problem without any negative consequences.
Remember: If you keep losing, your ranking will decrease and you will end up fighting enemies that have also been losing constantly, and thus you will probably end up having a fair fight whose outcome isn't decided before the fight has even begun.
However, if you keep winning, the strenght of your opponents will constantly increase until you end up with people who are on the same level as you.
I feel that this is definitely something that is needed very, very badly.
Games like Dota and LoL use such a system with great success already, and it doesn't sound too difficult implement.
Edit: I just realized that this is the wrong sub-forum, could a mod please move this thread into the suggestions subforum?
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Ranking systems come with all sorts of negative consequences actually, but as to your own predicament, venturing into non-beginner games will probably prove to be more of a challenge.
Regardless, you've stumbled onto probably the most important aspect of the game, coordination and communication.
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Do you have your filter set on beginner matches?
If you want more competitive style play, I suggest you check out the clans.
If you're into more casual stuff, there are usually some fairly high level game floating around at any given point (not that numbers mean anything).
I'd disable your filters, and if you still have this problem, my only suggestion is to start making friends. The friends system in game is designed so you can casually track people you like flying with/against.
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Do you have your filter set on beginner matches?
If you want more competitive style play, I suggest you check out the clans.
If you're into more casual stuff, there are usually some fairly high level game floating around at any given point (not that numbers mean anything).
I'd disable your filters, and if you still have this problem, my only suggestion is to start making friends. The friends system in game is designed so you can casually track people you like flying with/against.
Filters don't apply to quickjoin, do they?
A matchmaking system that is based on rankings would be ideal for that, as it would allow you to quickly find opponents and teammates that are on the same level as you are.
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If you fit the requirements for a Beginner's Match (I.e. All levels 3 or lower), then Quick Join will automatically put you in one. Try picking a non-level restricted match manually to get more of a challenge.
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I'd suggest stop using Quick Join and wander into some game lobbies and try and seek out competition. Honestly, I've never ever used the Quick Join.
The community is not so big that I believe a ranking system wouldn't really work all that well. Also consider who's ranking are we taking into account? The Captain? The Crew? A combination of all on the ship? None of these would be all that accurate. I rather enjoy the "system" of just finding people to compete against.
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Actually anyone who is under level 3 in all ranks will be put into a beginner match when they click quick join. It has defiantly diffused much of the rage vets feel when a powder monkey quick joins their ship at a bad time.
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Actually anyone who is under level 3 in all ranks will be put into a beginner match when they click quick join. It has defiantly diffused much of the rage vets feel when a powder monkey quick joins their ship at a bad time.
It was a common misconception that Quick Join put people into running games. Those powder monkeys were joining ships through the match list. It just occurs much less now because of beginner matches.
That being said, I do not recommend using the Quick Join button to anybody.
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Ranking systems rely on stats, Muse takes stats out of the gameplay so people (rightly) don't focus on them as the objective of the game. Ranks are largely cosmetic in terms of how they affect gameplay, however they are fairly representative of time spent in the game, which translates as experience in tools, weaponry, strategy etc.
Also since last weekend there have been a lot of new arrivals due to certain youtubers featuring the game, meaning a large chunk of the player base is new, and there will always people who instinctively "get" the game and those that need to work at it.
As Plasmarobo says - you can step up the difficultly by choosing matches with higher concentrations of higher level players, though be aware more will be expected of you by a more experienced crew.
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If you fit the requirements for a Beginner's Match (I.e. All levels 3 or lower), then Quick Join will automatically put you in one. Try picking a non-level restricted match manually to get more of a challenge.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Still, the assumption that time spent playing the game equals actual skill and the ability to coordinate effectively is kinda flawed.
Wouldn't it be better for quickjoin to allow matchmaking based on actual success instead of merely on how much time you've spent playing the game?
Regarding concerns of how you'd determine the ranking of individual players:
You can use the already existing level system as a basis, i.e. how often did you win against opponents of similiar/equal level? If do so a certain amount of times, you automatically get put into a higher "matchmaking tier" regardless of the level of your character, and if you keep losing, you descend into a lower tier.
Most of the time, this would be a relatively accurate representation of how well you play.
While you might need to separate ranking for different classes (so that someone who doesn't have any experience at all at being a pilot doesn't end up in a higher tier match because of his engineering skills), this seems relatively simple to implement and generally beneficial to having a positive experience when playing the game.
@Calico Jack
Ah well, guess we'll just have to manually look for more skilled opponents.
Although my idea would solve the problem that some people immediatly "get" (understand) the game, while others don't, by putting those who do into matches with other successful players.
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Levels are achievement based not time playing based (but there is a correlation between how long you play and how much random stuff you accidentally check off on Muse's achievement list).
There are people who have logged less hours than me who are higher level, and people who have logged more hours than I who are lower level.
This community has benefited greatly from experienced players willing to take a few losses in order to teach less experienced players. Having an ongoing player rank and level based match making would lower the incentive for experienced players to do this.
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I agree with RomanKar about there are not enough players for a proper matchmaking system. Think about it: How many lobbys are there in average? Maybe 8-10? How many of those are in your region? Maybe 3-4? How many of those can you join with your friends to play on the same ship? So as you see, not many choices will remain.
I also think that the skill level is very hard to determine. It might be based on all the rank level, the invested time, the win/loose ratio of that played class, but having done that you'll still only have the relative skill level of a single member of a crew. All of this may mean nothing if the ship loadout is choosen poorly and/or the crew's class composition is bad, and/or there are communication problems (due to language barriers or whatever reasons), personal issues. So taking an average skill level of a whole crew would be as accurate as a random number.
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evodoc, you should really set the map filter to also show beginners matches, just to take a look. right now, there are dozens of games going right now. I've never seen so many lobbies in this game before. kinda crazy.
other than that, yeah, i agree that a matchmaking system doesn't make much sense for this game, for the reasons other folks have stated.
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How many of those can you join with your friends to play on the same ship?
You should try the "Form Cew" function - it allows you to create a crew then transplant it into a game lobby.
I also think that the skill level is very hard to determine.
As a crew you are the sum of your parts. However if you play regularly enough you will know the skill level of players and ships in your play slot. In other words your skill level is by peer review rather than working out how the program ticks boxes.
Still, the assumption that time spent playing the game equals actual skill and the ability to coordinate effectively is kinda flawed.
It's a generalisation and as such will not be true in every case
Wouldn't it be better for quickjoin to allow matchmaking based on actual success instead of merely on how much time you've spent playing the game?
In short no - how do you measure success in a game that requires you to team with at least 1 other crew? This game is designed to encourage team play, hence the lack of emphasis on personal kill counts, crew kill counts. The game only shows the final score not who scored the points. The stats, like the levels are there if you really need them, but they're not the focus of the game and you don't get rewarded by the game for prioritising them over co-ordinating with your team mates and crew, this imo is very intelligent design and one of the reasons I like this game so much.
Regarding concerns of how you'd determine the ranking of individual players:
You can use the already existing level system as a basis, i.e. how often did you win against opponents of similiar/equal level? If do so a certain amount of times, you automatically get put into a higher "matchmaking tier" regardless of the level of your character, and if you keep losing, you descend into a lower tier.
under the current system you can choose to stay in the level locked games until you reach level 4 or move on if you feel ready, it's a good compromise I feel, rather than forcing everyone though an arbitrary levelling or grading system, you get to choose.
Ah well, guess we'll just have to manually look for more skilled opponents.
you make it sound like a chore :), really it's just clicking on a different button.
Although my idea would solve the problem that some people immediatly "get" (understand) the game, while others don't, by putting those who do into matches with other successful players.
Personally I feel the problem is not the ones who "get" the game.
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Seriously just come into the regular matches.
There are tons of people that really know how to play; and if you still keep curb stomping them, set up a scrimmage against one of the established clans or wander into their practice lobbies. I guarantee you'll find a challenge against some of the best in the game.
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I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.
There are those like the OP that instinctively understand the game, and go on a stompfest wondering where the "real" game is. And there are those that don't pick up the game instantly and are left floundering because they're surrounded by other newbs and there's no one to tell them how to play the game.
Over the last week or so, I've played with or against a lot of new players in the main game (summer holiday influx). Far too often I've heard them say that they're planning on giving up because they don't understand the game, they've been on a losing streak since they started. Or, thanks are posted to experienced Captains who've had them on their crew in the post-match lobby because for the first time they've had someone tell them what they need to do. Really simple stuff, like aim for the hull with a gatling, hold fire with the flak until the targets armour goes down, etc. They get their first win or first win streak.
If quick join is matchmaking entire lobbies of sub-L3 players, and I was amazed how many beginner lobbies there are, then the game is going to lose a lot of them because they're going to flounder and no one is going to notice. There's no one on any crew they join who knows what they're doing, no one to coordinate or instruct them. They get stomped by Kuratias and player like him again and again, until they give up and go play whatever is the Steam deal of the day.
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I've observed what Pickle's describing. I don't like rank systems, but at least a Coaching system should be introduced. Maybe even steal some CAs or vets to coach teams in beginner mode.
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I was recruited as a trainer a few weeks back. I have a thread on the Steam hub for GoI which is pinned to the front of the forum area and a thread in this forum where I announce all the training sessions I'm running which are thrice weekly. Back in January I also wrote a quick start guide covering gameplay basics in such a way that new players can crew and know what they should be doing, also up on the hub and been on featuring on the frontpage since I wrote it, meaning it's being read by enough people each week to keep it there.
In my time slot there aren't that many people who do have the ability to join level 1-3 matches - not enough for a 2v2 in most cases. To get round that I've been asking regular players to help and forming up matches with at least 1 exp crew member on each ship.
Yesterday I was on late enough to catch the EU Training day - there were 7 trainers in the same match which filled a 3 v 3.
The problem I'm seeing as a trainer isn't reaching out to people - I can join level 1-3 matches but that the the players are over confident as to their actual abilities and feel they have no need to play better.
Personally I feel that it's down to a combination of the in game tutes and level locked matches - as Pickle says there is no indication given that there is more to learn.
That said I applaud the tutes and level locking as it's a step in the right direction from what happened before they were implemented.
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Maybe all the noobs don't bother checking the steam hub, or even the forum. Maybe if there was some kind of news feed in the game, it could help, or something to direct them here idk.
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Maybe all the noobs don't bother checking the steam hub, or even the forum. Maybe if there was some kind of news feed in the game, it could help, or something to direct them here idk.
there is a link in game to the forums - make achieves for signing up and posting on the intro thread may be a good idea, but you can lead a horse to water dot dot dot
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Maybe all the noobs don't bother checking the steam hub, or even the forum. Maybe if there was some kind of news feed in the game, it could help, or something to direct them here idk.
I don't check the Steam hub, does anyone? And 99% of the forum isn't about the fundamental basics of how to play the game - do even have a guide to the fundamental basics?
I've had a long drive today, and something that struck me whilst thinking about this thread is just how awkward Sandbox is for training when you need to shut down the map and restart it just because you've shown them the basics of Engineering, and now you need them to have more than one ammo/pilot tool so you can show them something else. And I'd quite like the option of a balloon target that visually shows on screen the health of balloon, hull armour, hull, gun component and engine component (only one of each). Just so there's an obvious, visual indication of the different relative effects of weapon and ammunition choice. Similar to the health bars in Spectator mode, just have more of them and floating off to the side of the balloon target with an icon so you know what is what. Perhaps even have different types whose relative health represents each ship type (although the balloon targets themselves are visually identical other than a silhouette on the balloon, and just share the same health characteristics as the ship class they represent).
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This game is not for everybody, and I think a vast majority of beginners are beyond help. I am grateful for every new face that joins our community, but I accept that most of them will be leaving soon. This game is too different from what many people expect a First Person Multiplayer video game to be. Most of my IRL friends don't play even though I gave them a copy on steam.
The beginner matches are great for letting people get a taste of this game without ultra competitive captains breathing down their neck dictating their every action. Part of the fun of any game is discovering the game's mechanics. When we tell a level 1 what to do and why, we rob them of the fun of discovering it themselves. We should still do it since we would have a useless crew member otherwise. However if a new player wants the joy of discovering the meta on their own, the beginner games are the place to do so.
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do even have a guide to the fundamental basics?
oh yes
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=119113625
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I've observed what Pickle's describing. I don't like rank systems, but at least a Coaching system should be introduced. Maybe even steal some CAs or vets to coach teams in beginner mode.
We do have training days and I know myself and others occasionally hop into beginner matches even not on training days, but there are simply too many new players coming in at the moment for it to be reasonable to train them all. Having more people help with training is certainly something we should encourage, but I don't think we should rely on that, because it's not feasible. We need more trainers in combination with things like a better tutorial, etc.
Regarding the main point of this thread, definitely use the manual match select. You'll find much more experienced players, and quick join tends to not put you into great matches anyway. It hardly takes any longer than quick join, and you'll be happier with your games.
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how awkward Sandbox is for training when you need to shut down the map and restart it just because you've shown them the basics of Engineering, and now you need them to have more than one ammo/pilot tool so you can show them something else.
tbh before the addition of the extra functions in the sandbox it was even tougher to simulate damage in a realistic manner to train engineers, fire was impossible. Though I've been using the form crew function for setting up training sessions because it is lobby like, with mic and text chat while you can't get invaded by "gogogoredyupffs"ers and leads (almost - depending on numbers) straight into a game where they can try out what you've just been talking about in a more natural way. Sandboox is great though for working through 1 issue like what component to salvage when they're all burning etc, how to use motion indicators in the gunner's view etc
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Having more people help with training is certainly something we should encourage, but I don't think we should rely on that, because it's not feasible.
Sometimes it's also unavoidable though.
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I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.
Back to this point..
Is there any way that a pool of experienced players can get into Beginner matches - just in the Spectator slots? Pulling beginners into specific training matches is like pulling teeth. The games I've seen become dominated by the trainers making up numbers with very few trainees.
I've had players up to L3 coming onboard recently unaware of some of the basics - e.g. timing flak shots to armour destruction. With no experience in the Beginner matches the best that can be hoped for is that players won't learn too many bad habits. They certainly don't seem to be learning very many good ones.
It's coming back to this potential for the beginners to break-up into the Stomped and the Stompees.
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I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.
Back to this point..
Is there any way that a pool of experienced players can get into Beginner matches - just in the Spectator slots? Pulling beginners into specific training matches is like pulling teeth. The games I've seen become dominated by the trainers making up numbers with very few trainees.
I've had players up to L3 coming onboard recently unaware of some of the basics - e.g. timing flak shots to armour destruction. With no experience in the Beginner matches the best that can be hoped for is that players won't learn too many bad habits. They certainly don't seem to be learning very many good ones.
It's coming back to this potential for the beginners to break-up into the Stomped and the Stompees.
I've started running a thrice weekly sessions on Mon/Wed/Fri. I've not any trouble filling a 2v2 usually with 1 CA/exp player per ship - I believe you were in at the start of one on Monday Pickle.
The problem in particular with level 3s I'm seeing is they are convinced they know the game, having played X amount of matches in level locked games against teams that are uncoordinated and uniformed as to the basics if the game, they have never really had to learn how to play better to win. As a trainer I'm able to join level locked games but as I'm uninvited my advice is looked upon in the same light, given that I have no special chat colour. That isn't to say I've not been able to engage with players in level locked games but you really do need one experienced player per ship to actually do anything of any value, and at the moment I'm he only trainer in my timeslot.
TLDR
training is available, but not everyone feels they need training.
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I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.
Back to this point..
Is there any way that a pool of experienced players can get into Beginner matches - just in the Spectator slots? Pulling beginners into specific training matches is like pulling teeth. The games I've seen become dominated by the trainers making up numbers with very few trainees.
I think the CA's and mods have permission to join beginner matches as players or spectators. They have already sworn to the sky whale to not be a-holes.
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I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.
Back to this point..
Is there any way that a pool of experienced players can get into Beginner matches - just in the Spectator slots? Pulling beginners into specific training matches is like pulling teeth. The games I've seen become dominated by the trainers making up numbers with very few trainees.
I think the CA's and mods have permission to join beginner matches as players or spectators. They have already sworn to the sky whale to not be a-holes.
Or Bacon. But yes, CAs are able to join beginners matches and non-CAs be given permission to do so on a case-by-case basis.
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I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.
Back to this point..
Is there any way that a pool of experienced players can get into Beginner matches - just in the Spectator slots? Pulling beginners into specific training matches is like pulling teeth. The games I've seen become dominated by the trainers making up numbers with very few trainees.
I think the CA's and mods have permission to join beginner matches as players or spectators. They have already sworn to the sky whale to not be a-holes.
Not all CAs see training as their responsibility though.
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Jack, I've seen you sessions running - but I've also noticed that it takes you up to half-an-hour to drum up a training match when there's 600+ in the Lobby. And that's typical. Last time I dropped in on the EU training session the experienced players outnumbered the trainees. I think it would be easier to go into a beginner match lobby and offer help. You might get rebuffed, but you at least know you're going to the target audience and not waiting on them coming to you.
Beginner matches risk ghettoising low level players that are just shit out of luck - always in a game or not online when a session is advertised- or just don't want to put their hand up and say they need help.
I know CAs and the Muse team can, but how many do just drop into a Beginner Match and just ask how things are going, are they enjoying the game, do they need help? If it was my game, I'd have the marketing and community liaison team doing this daily.
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Pickle - it depends on the session.
I've gone into level locked matches and crewed with players - yet there are at least 3 other ships in any given match and in my timeslot we don't have that many trainers, currently it's only me and I have no ability to selectively allow experienced players to have access to level 1-3 matches. Often there is only 1 CA on.
I have broached the subject with Muse directly about changes they need to bring about to make training work better, by which I mean features to be added into the game - they were very receptive to what I had to say. There is also a shake up of the abilities assigned to CAs and trainers in the works regarding moderation abilities.
In the meantime if you want to get involved let me know because I'm looking to recruit people to training who are active when I'm on so I can get 4 experienced players into level locked games.
And again I repeat not everyone wants training, that's not mouthing excuses, I can go into level locked matches and talk to people.