Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Squidslinger Gilder on August 06, 2013, 07:46:50 pm
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Years ago I remember someone asking Blizzard about why they use large numbers when it comes to dmg done and health totals. The response basically was, because people tend to like to see big numbers. Small numbers don't bring the same effect. It doesn't excite the player as much.
Thinking of this and considering GOIO. What would bring more excitement to newbies and maybe keep them playing the game longer? Simply adding the dmg totals to every shot as a fly text. Think WoW, TOR, or Borderlands type stuff. It doesn't stay on the screen long, just flashes and reveals how much dmg is being done. Now usually these work best in unison with a crit system where you get more excited to see a critical strike land on a target. But even simply having them in game would not only help new players see how much dmg they are doing, but also help show what they should be doing. Say color code it to change based on the type of dmg. Example: Carronades hit red on balloons but yellow on components and green on hull.
You could also work this into engineering as well. Yes we used to have raw numbers in the ship loadout screen but not everyone reads that.
Downside is, this brings a degree of arcade style presentation to the game. Sim nuts will cry havoc. But with AM coming, the PVP scene could be more arcade in presentation thus leaving AM to be more of the sim style of game. Arcade type features do tend to sell. CoD wouldn't be as big as it is today without them.
Also, lag may be an issue. Already seen tar lag matches in the past. How much more would fly text add?
Now this moves into another idea for classes. Passive abilities. Say each class has a set passive ability which extends their utility even more. For example:
Gunners = Get a % bonus to critical strike on their shots. Have to test to find a good middle ground but this combined with the combat fly text would likely generate some good buzz among newbies. Downside, vets may hate it. But it will make Gunners a bit better received and needed.
Engineers = Similar to gunners, they get a % chance to crit on repairs and rebuilds. This may balance it for the vets that hate it since engineer teams would be potentially able to compensate for the sudden burst dmg from critting gunners.
Pilots = Now here is the hard one. Engineer and Gunner are very similar and can work. But what can you do for pilot? They don't shoot or repair. So Ideas? I'm kinda thinking around the lines of a % bonus to ship stats with a pilot. Say, overall hp of hull, speed boost, turn rate, and vertical movement. Even if just say 5%, that would make it certain that pilots are a necessity in any match. Buffs would only be applied while on helm too so anyone else jumping on the helm could remove them.
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About combat fly text: I don't want numbers in my face.
Passive abilities: hmmm. maybe. I really don't like the idea of a crit in GOI.
Call me old fashioned, but I guess I just don't get the point.
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The Combat Fly text would be nice but maybe have it an option to turn it off or make it so you can set the things that tell you if you hit to turn a certain color for different damages.
As for the passive class abilities it would make gunners more important. I know i have seen some ships that will go 1 pilot and 3 engineers cause you don't really need the 4 ammo types. I have seen people go all gunners cause it would be harder than having a engineer and pilot with you cause they just aren't that useful. Also i have seen people go with no Pilot. I think though it should be like this
Gunner: better weapons are more accurate and have a chance to do bonus damage(critical hit)
Engineer: Faster repair over other classes even if you are using the same re-pair tool as a gunner or pilot.
Pilot: More maneuverability in general.(speed, climbing, turning, stopping)
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Naturally old fashioned players wouldn't want it. That is clear, for them it would be optional via the settings menu. Heck I don't really see a need for it but in the interest of retaining players and keeping their attention spans sated, I'd be willing to put up with it. I'd consider it more of an assist tool and something for new players to think they are more leet than they really are.
You don't have to have it in your face either. It would be registering on the other ship, not in your face. Also consider it for casters and spectators. They could enable it and accurately see where ships are taking damage and how much damage.
Crit adds an element of unpredictability to the game. Does it need it, no...but I think it could drastically change how engagements go. It is clear no one is ever going to go for a level up system where the game buffs you the higher level you get.
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I'm not sure about the idea of damage numbers, but I love love love the idea of the color of the hit indicator changing depending if you hit the "right" component. New people seeing little white hits when hitting a balloon with gat, but bright streaked red when they hit hull? Oh yes please! That will make it soooo much easier to teach new people. The only downside is that it will make sniping slightly easier - you tell through clouds approximately where you hit for example.
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I'm not quite the fan of this idea i must say. However I do see a way to implement this. Simply by having this as an option. Just like in many other games you can choose between a "pro" match and a "normal" match. by creating a lobby you could choose between those two. Normal one would give you the colors, the text and all this fashion and the other mode would be the one we have now. In the begining most new players will probably favour the happy numbers game mode. As they progress they might search the challange to the other one.
I'd even go as far as to say that the class ability could only be an option in those "easy" games. Otherwise It might be a little critical in the game.
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Yeah the color hit indicator I thought up when thinking how to use it as a teaching aide. Have to tailor it to each gun but it would help. People would know right away what to shoot on even if they don't speak English.
Or yeah, could have normal mode and hardcore mode. Though I doubt Muse would split the community with it. But I'm just trying to think of ways to get new players more interested. Having it at least as an option by default that could be turned off would probably prevent some of the boredom new players get after the initial buzz wears off.
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Since each lobby is created individually this would be more then possible to implement. I was thinking when I used to play battlefield that there were servers with spoting, complete Hud and renewing health bar. the hardcore mode had almost no HUD no spotting and no health generator. Logically you don't start playing it "hardcore" and only later you progress this bigger challange of limitations. It's not a new thing and been proven to be effective when you have these options.
I just really wouldn't want to have text response in every game :)
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Well we don't get a lot of controls other than map selection for hosting. But that has been talked about a bit. Adding a hardcore tournament style mode where some of the stock rules are bent and setup specifically for competitive play.
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You are right. I'm crying havoc. I love skirmish mode as a sim nut, and don't want to see it messed with. Adventure mode is a different animal, but I don't want to see my beloved death match turn into every other game other there. Guns is different for a reason. I don't think people are leaving because there aren't really ugly numbers. Who told you that?
The game is supposed to be played 'on feel'. Numbers would totally ruin my experience of enjoying the game and it's organic flow. You should be good enough at a competitive level to judge damage from the natural visual cues (in my opinion anyway). I would hate to see these for anyone, it'd remind me that I'm playing a video game, and not actually flying an airship. As for the damage markers...color would look ugly, they already get huge if you hit the right component.
Passive class abilities are silly. Classes already do what they are supposed to do. They shouldn't be more specialized cause that's inauthentic. Why would a gunner have more chance to crit than an engineer? It's like a profession, I'm an engineer (IRL) but there are plenty of mathematicians who are better than I am at engineering. If you want the gunner class to be better, practice playing as a gunner. You shouldn't need a handicap. Classes are already as useful as they need to be.
What you are talking about here is writing a different game. Guns is supposed to be authentic and challenging. Our player base is steadily growing, I don't think there is much need to rewrite the system. Effort would be better spent training up the newbies, instead of tailoring the game to them. Guns necessarily demands patience, concentrations, tactics, and above all thought. Adding assistive devices to these things is just cheapening the experience.
Okay, angry rant over. But really, why are people obsessed with fixin' what ain't broke? I'd rather see more server stability.
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Plasma if you notice I'm referring to a concept Blizzard uses. You'll see I'm bringing in an idea on a concept that appeases this generation and helps with retention. It does work. Heck, Borderlands uses it, Sanctum uses it. Seeing those numbers does raise the excitement in the minds of players in this day and age. As much as I'd like to keep things more purest, Muse already has hit markers added. So really, this isn't a sim game anymore. This is a borderline arcade title. In fact, while I love sim titles and such, they have never sold as well as arcade style games. People don't always want heavy realism when they play, hence why cell phone gaming and social media gaming have taken off so much. Its the quick, get in, get out concept that is playable within a lunch hour or a break time.
Already mentioned color coding the markers and numbers would be optional and mostly for the benefit of new players. So you can throw that argument out since it doesn't apply to you.
Plasma you did not read that class ability change? Both gunners and engineers would have a chance to crit but in different ways. Gunner with dmg, engineer with repair/rebuild. No classes are not as useful as they need to be, otherwise we wouldn't have such a demand for engineer only teams. No one seems to know how or want to change that. But if you give gunners an ability to crit, you can be sure you'll suddenly be seeing more gunners being allowed to play. Imagine putting one on a gat or flamer...the crit chance would make a huge difference in cracking hull armor. If you have a better idea, then please present it. But so far this community hasn't come up with anything else that works. Adding more tools slots, while nice, wouldn't solve it. Gunners would still be oppressed and relegated to medium weapons.
Plasma do you even know the retention rate this game has? Are you on at all times to train newbies? No. Heck I don't but I'm on enough to tell this game does not retain as well as it could. If we are moving towards an eSport environment, we need to retain better. We don't need CAs on all the time training and bottlefeeding newbies into airship adulthood. What we need is simple features which can get the job done when people aren't around for that. But also ones that can help CAs teach new players when they are on.
You mention patience and I totally agree, but this generation doesn't. How do you appease a CoD generation with the attention span of a goldfish? Give them numbers, give them colors, give them shiny objects! It is simple. Make it optional for vets if they want to turn it off but give the Coddies their reason to stay. Eventually they'll mature and realize they don't need the training wheels.
No need to get angry, I already predicted players like you would come out in a crusade against it. Pretty obvious you didn't really read parts of it through and consider what some of it is designed for. Unless of course this is just a MM tradition of harassing me whenever you can. Seems Zill likes to do that. Then by all means have at it.
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The numbers wouldn't even make the game easier, a new player will eventually get used to how many shots it takes on a gun to down hull armor. Plus you are detracting from the explosion detail when a heap of numbers fly over it. This game has some really good immersion that makes you go overboard. :P Don't even think about mentioning the health bars.
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Plasma if you notice I'm referring to a concept Blizzard uses. You'll see I'm bringing in an idea on a concept that appeases this generation and helps with retention. It does work. Heck, Borderlands uses it, Sanctum uses it. Seeing those numbers does raise the excitement in the minds of players in this day and age. As much as I'd like to keep things more purest, Muse already has hit markers added. So really, this isn't a sim game anymore. This is a borderline arcade title. In fact, while I love sim titles and such, they have never sold as well as arcade style games. People don't always want heavy realism when they play, hence why cell phone gaming and social media gaming have taken off so much. Its the quick, get in, get out concept that is playable within a lunch hour or a break time.
Already mentioned color coding the markers and numbers would be optional and mostly for the benefit of new players. So you can throw that argument out since it doesn't apply to you.
Plasma you did not read that class ability change? Both gunners and engineers would have a chance to crit but in different ways. Gunner with dmg, engineer with repair/rebuild. No classes are not as useful as they need to be, otherwise we wouldn't have such a demand for engineer only teams. No one seems to know how or want to change that. But if you give gunners an ability to crit, you can be sure you'll suddenly be seeing more gunners being allowed to play. Imagine putting one on a gat or flamer...the crit chance would make a huge difference in cracking hull armor. If you have a better idea, then please present it. But so far this community hasn't come up with anything else that works. Adding more tools slots, while nice, wouldn't solve it. Gunners would still be oppressed and relegated to medium weapons.
Plasma do you even know the retention rate this game has? Are you on at all times to train newbies? No. Heck I don't but I'm on enough to tell this game does not retain as well as it could. If we are moving towards an eSport environment, we need to retain better. We don't need CAs on all the time training and bottlefeeding newbies into airship adulthood. What we need is simple features which can get the job done when people aren't around for that. But also ones that can help CAs teach new players when they are on.
You mention patience and I totally agree, but this generation doesn't. How do you appease a CoD generation with the attention span of a goldfish? Give them numbers, give them colors, give them shiny objects! It is simple. Make it optional for vets if they want to turn it off but give the Coddies their reason to stay. Eventually they'll mature and realize they don't need the training wheels.
No need to get angry, I already predicted players like you would come out in a crusade against it. Pretty obvious you didn't really read parts of it through and consider what some of it is designed for. Unless of course this is just a MM tradition of harassing me whenever you can. Seems Zill likes to do that. Then by all means have at it.
The notion that having numbers fly about will keep players in game is anecdotal at best. Correlation does not equal causation.
Blizz, Borderlands and the like are all made by huge companies with a long line of top selling games, of course they're going to have more folks playing. I highly doubt that flashing numbers around is the sole reason they keep their retention rate, and just because those games have them does not mean every game needs to as well.
Edit: Oh, and as for MM "harrassing" you, you might want to consider that some folks don't think your ideas are as smart as you think they are ;)
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Unless of course this is just a MM tradition of harassing me whenever you can. Seems Zill likes to do that. Then by all means have at it.
No, we just have a fundamental difference of opinion here. I support you when you have good ideas, like the Sky Torpedo. Sure, maybe there are some kinks in game balance and it wouldn't work (a la Zill), but I thought it was neat. But here...
What you see as great features, I see as "Oh, another one of THOSE games." If COD kids want to play a rpg styled fps twitch game then let them play COD. This game doesn't need to cater to everyone. I would much rather have a base of players that want to take the time to learn. I did read your entire post, you misunderstood me. I think crits are a bad idea. Period. Guns was never a sim title, nor is it an arcade title. It exists in the weird middle ground. It is it's own game.
My thoughts are that the game should never feel mechanical, never feel like a game. Muse has done a wonderful job with that. Even the game-ification elements feel very integrated, organic and in place. Things like color coding, numbers, and hits would actively deter the sort of people not looking for just another arcade clone. I think the game needs a chance to mature and grow on it's own while not bowing to the pressures of instant gratification culture.
On that note, I think you are making sweeping generalizations about the state "current generation". I consider myself to have a low attention span. I made time for this game. You compare this game to a bunch of games in completely different genres. Maybe we should have faster speeds and drifting. Racing games have those. They seem to be doing pretty well.
I'm not sure why everyone is upset over the lack of gunners. Having a class used less than the other classes is not a terrible thing! There is a bigger lack of pilots! Let's buff pilots! But really, they are all fine. Nothing is stopping you from having more gunners on your ship. Do it if you want. Engineer teams aren't a bad or good thing. They simply are. If engineering isn't fun for you, don't do it. Nobody seems to want to change it, because there is absolutely zero reason why it needs to be changed. I don't think it represents a major problem with game balance. Gunners aren't oppressed. They just have a niche and as long as people keep shooting as well as they do, I will want more engineers.
To be fair, I don't know the exact retention rate. Muse doesn't seem to be too concerned about it, and when I hear from them "Oh god guys, we need you to get more people to stick around! Give us ideas!" we can have a real discussion about it. It was my impression that growth has trended upwards, if slowly. Plus retention is a terrible metric. My university rejects upwards of 77% applicants, that doesn't mean it's amazing. Not everyone is going to love this game. Come to terms with the fact that that is okay. Not everyone likes reading books, it takes too much time and makes you think. I still enjoy them, and like discussing them with my fellow readers, and I kept encountering more readers and encourage them to read. We've got enough CA's that anyone who plays for more than a few days will likely encounter a few. We do our best to reel in the best newbies.
Point being people should stay for the game itself. And if not, they should come back when they mature. We can do what we can to help the maturing process, and make sure this game is lots of fun, but that doesn't mean we turn it into a cheap hooker.
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Well said Plasma
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Does hit size depend on damage? I think it does, cause carronade shots are huge.
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Hit box size depends on damage done.
Carronade hit boxes will be huge if you smash all of the scattershot projectiles into the balloon but you'll notice if you have normal ammo and shoot at a light gun you're likely to get a small hitbox on the hull and weapon.
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If we're going to talk about realism, then we should acknowledge that someone who shoots for a living should have some sort of learned skill advantage over someone who fixes things for a living. While I'm against random crits, I'm all for the idea of skills improvements for each level. It's perfectly realistic that a veteran gunner should be able to manage his gun better (+X% accuracy, +Y% turning speed). It's perfectly realistic that a veteran engineer should be able to get more out of his tools (-X% repair cooldown, +Y% damaged repaired per hit). It's perfectly realistic that a veteran pilot should be able to push his ship's capabilities further (+X% horizontal acc., +Y% rotational acc., +Z% vertical acc.).
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If we're going to talk about realism, then we should acknowledge that someone who shoots for a living should have some sort of learned skill advantage over someone who fixes things for a living. While I'm against random crits, I'm all for the idea of skills improvements for each level. It's perfectly realistic that a veteran gunner should be able to manage his gun better (+X% accuracy, +Y% turning speed). It's perfectly realistic that a veteran engineer should be able to get more out of his tools (-X% repair cooldown, +Y% damaged repaired per hit). It's perfectly realistic that a veteran pilot should be able to push his ship's capabilities further (+X% horizontal acc., +Y% rotational acc., +Z% vertical acc.).
This may come as a surprise, but veteran gunners, pilots, and engineers already have skill improvements for each level. It's called experience. It takes time and a ton of games to get to the higher levels. You learn to hold your flak shots, stop turns with moonshine, and parkour all over the ships. Adding a passive bonus just further disadvantages newbies and would create a huge preference for high level players over low levels, resulting in even more team stacking. Part of what I love about guns is that stats wise, everyone is equal. That Powder Monkey could be just as good as any level 10. All that's missing is the experience.
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About combat fly text: I don't want numbers in my face.
Passive abilities: hmmm. maybe. I really don't like the idea of a crit in GOI.
Call me old fashioned, but I guess I just don't get the point.
Same here.
And I especially don't want a random% passive bonus, don't introduce more random elements in the game please, it lowers the skill ceiling and makes it unfair for everyone involved.
If noobs want to see big numbers fly about, sure, make it an option. I just won't use it.
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Numbers would immediately become the Thing To Do, because they'd add that much of an edge over people not using it. Let us all have even ground and not apply something that would just rip away the feel this game has. If they want numbers, they want to play some other game.
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This may come as a surprise, but veteran gunners, pilots, and engineers already have skill improvements for each level. It's called experience. It takes time and a ton of games to get to the higher levels. You learn to hold your flak shots, stop turns with moonshine, and parkour all over the ships. Adding a passive bonus just further disadvantages newbies and would create a huge preference for high level players over low levels, resulting in even more team stacking. Part of what I love about guns is that stats wise, everyone is equal. That Powder Monkey could be just as good as any level 10. All that's missing is the experience.
^this
the passive bonuses dont really work for this game because its not a randomization generator. some one who has more experience with a gun, already has more experience with a gun they dont need a passive bonus to simulate that experience. besides that having a passive bonus would basically tighten the restrictions on the standard crew composition, so if there were to be passive bonuses there might as well be class selection by slot in the lobby.
as for the numbers. its true people like seeing big numbers. but games that use those numbers are often RPG's of some type. people dont like seeing the big numbers by themselves, people like seeing small numbers grow into big numbers through playing the game. in this game the numbers would have no meaning as the stats on the equipment are always the same. in an RPG or other such games the numbers increase on a √x curve. they go up fast in the beginning to get you hooked but then they taper off as you continue playing to not become absurd .
in this game the numbers would be a horizontal line on the graph. you could put that line anywhere on the y axis and it wouldn't matter, the gatling could do 1 dmg or 100000 dmg it wouldnt matter because all dmg is constant and proportional to all other values in the game. that is why the hit markers as they are right now make more sense (and besides they already indicate damage with size anyway). you dont need numbers to tell you how much damage you are doing because that damage is always the same. you just need to know if you are hitting.