Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Keyvias on August 05, 2013, 03:18:04 pm
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It Starts now!
Everything you need to start rocking and rolling is right here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArCXRuoOqVIMdHU4akg0UkV5REpzb3JtR3lRbFNzcWc&usp=sharing).
You will be able to edit some tabs, that's so it is easy copy and paste for me. I will be taking the approved parts and copying over to a protected tab (that you can view, but not edit) just in case someone of a less reputable nature stumbles onto it.
It is a risk and I am trusting you guys, but you all have proven to be worthy and stalwart allies.
If the system fails for any reason we will find another one.
We're in this one together.
Feel free to ask questions I will try to stop in and answer them as possible.
There will also be a live FAQ this Friday (8/9) at 3 PM EST on Qwerty's channel (http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam).
The main goal of this system is to promote and help facilitate high skill play. Any tournament can be run any way it likes and it's victories can be counted as points.
Skirmishes are to allow high skill fights to happen whenever two teams can get together. You want to beat each other brains out after a nice lunch? Go ahead! You feel the bloodlust at midnight and need a worthy opponent? Have at it!
As time goes on we'll integrate the system more into the website, but we didn't want to have you wait around while we work out those little technical bits.
If you spot any glaring bugs, inconsistencies, or any part that could be explained better please let me know so we can get it fixed up.
Remember to list your team in the Apply your team tab. It's open for anyone to adjust to after I've approved the information I'll copy it over to the protected one.
Also use the open scrimmage tab to set up and organize times to fight other teams.
Since it's an open document I'll have a record to copy it to I'll save just in case.
The System is live as of this moment so if I get a screenshot of two clans fighting 5 minutes from now it counts if they want it to.
Remember to send in the screenshots to competitive@musegames.com ~Morbie
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You want to beat each other brains out after a nice launch?
I love space-boxing!
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Had a look over the new format and it looks quite good. I'll have to give the point system some more thought, but my initial assessment is that it will probably work fine, especially with how the seeding for the end-of-season tournament works.
Looking forward to seeing how it works out.
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I'm really excited about this. Only potential issue I can see is how you prove both teams agreed to a skirmish, but I guess that just relies on clans to be mature and not submit random matches that weren't agreed upon.
Hopefully we'll see an official clan system soon as well, because currently there's nothing stopping people from stealing others' clan tags and submitting matches as legitimate.
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Keyvias, this looks great. Really well thought out from top to bottom.
I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to the end of season tournament.
I do have one piece of constructive criticism however. I've noticed you've listed Dunes as the default map as well as the final tournament map. Now this is just my opinion however I find the openess of Dunes to constrict tactics and overall play styles and limiting some of the terrific display of skill we frequently observe on other maps
Overall though this looks great. Can't wait to start earning points.
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So all of this for the prizes? If not then how is points going to settle anything regarding which team is skilled and not?
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So all of this for the prizes? If not then how is points going to settle anything regarding which team is skilled and not?
That'd be the invitational tournament at the end, no?
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I agree on Dunes. Fjords would be a better default map if you want one that is open and also has a good environment that pilots can utilize.
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I was actually thinking the exact same thing Gilder.
I wasn't sure of the motives for Dunes but I find Fjords to be a better balanced open map.
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I agree. Fjords should replace Dunes just about everywhere in the document. Only problem is those spawns...
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Alright, just going to make some questions while reading.
First up, the point system.
The point system is set to 5 points per week.
Okay, five points sounds reasonable. But say there is a tournament where you can gain more than 5 points? What happens with the rest of them? Sure, you fight for the honor of being top team, but you might still want the points you score I feel.
Underdog bonus seems fine.
Other than that it seems very much fine and I agree with the others that Fjords should replace dunes.
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Just want to put a huge thanks to Keyvias in here for posting up all the info. (I was on holiday and unable to post)
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i somehow dislike the rules and the match making system of it.
i played another game in the league and i would love to discuss it with you somehow if its possible
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Wow, this is fantastic! Can't wait to get started!
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This receives the OSOAFSBT (Official Seal Of Approval From Sammy B T)
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Dunes is being replaced by Fjords due to overwhelming demand.
The cap no matter what is 5. We don't want one team to win like a massive player made tournament and have 20 points and be untouchable by everyone else. The 5 cap will have some people sacrifice points for too many wins, but we'll still be funding tournaments with prizes and they can make up titles for them.
Also, this is live now!
It was brought to my attention I didn't explain this well. You can send in your high level play wins as soon as you get them.
Friday is so we have a more open way to talk about all questions and if there's anything we broke we'll only be a couple of days in before we get called out on it live.
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A standard single elimination tournament, with the advancing eight teams seeded throughout.
There will be 4 tiers, starting with 8 teams, and ending with 1 winner. There will also be an extra game to determine 3rd place.
Maps will be linked to the tiers, and will be ordered as follows:
Paritan, Canyon, Duel, Dunes
I am of the opinion that Fjords should replace Dunes here as well.
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So which do you hate more Sunderland, Labyrinth or Dunes? ;p
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In pubs? Labyrinth. In comp? Dunes :P
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Because I didn't explain it well. That google doc is for your use
List your team in the Apply your team tab. It's open for anyone to adjust to after I've approved the information I'll copy it over to the protected one.
Also use the open scrimmage tab to set up and organize times to fight other teams.
Since it's an open document I'll have a record to copy it to I'll save just in case.
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"You may only gain points once from the same team in skirmishes per week."
Hypothetical situation- let's say Merry Men have a scrimmage against Corvus on Saturday. Both of us have point totals of 0. Say Corvus wins the fight, netting 1 point. Could we then decide to do another scrimmage with Corvus immediately after? Would it count for 2 points if Merry Men win the next fight (since Corvus would have 1 point to MM's 0)?
If that's the case, it could be exploited a bit to guarantee two colluding teams to get 1 or 2 points from each other each week. You may want to change the phrasing to "There is no limit to how many scrimmages per week you may play, but you may only fight each team once per week for points. You may, however, face those teams in a tournament the same week and get points."
EDIT: You may also want to put an anti-collusion clause somewhere in the official rules, and maybe a minimum size for a tournament (3 or 4 teams from 2 or more clans). There's currently nothing written that stops, say, The Ducks from creating a 2 or 3 team Duck-only 'tournament' multiple times per week (the Ducks are just conveniently large, not implying they would actually cheat the system). You could even say "Muse has final say on whether a tournament grants points or not. As long as it's not blatant cheating or against the spirit of competition, pretty much anything is fine."
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If Merry men won the first against corvus, then the two teams played again, merry men would not gain a second point if they won again.
The rule is as it reads.
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I think what naufrago is saying is that two teams could conspire to just lose one match to each other every week.
I was actually thinking of something similar to your proposal but you beat me to the forums.
I kind of like the idea that if team A receives a point for beating team B, then team B can't receive a point for beating team A during the same week.
This will also ensure Scrimmages stay competitive since it will make winning even more important as you won't be able to just rematch to get your point.
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I'm still not a fan of point systems based on whoever has the most time per week.
I want to say good luck to everyone. Corvus will probaly be capable of playing each of you at some point, but I don't think we would have the time to stack up points each week. Lots of school, studies and work coming up for us these next months.
If there isnt some kind of participation points from scrimmages, that would mean we have to win each and everyone of our scrimmages to even have a chance at getting into the seasonal finals. Of which has proven to be hard vs. the sniping meta.
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i have all the time of the world at the moment.
May the best dutchmen win!
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I'm worried about how this is going to encourage any new clans or casual players to really get into it, because I fear it's heavily in support of big clans. At the moment we've got groups who are able to field even more than 2 teams - Imagine 2 or 3 of such groups, and you've got the Top 10 for the big Tournament very likely already half filled. Smaller formations that won't have that much time or suffer of a lack of members will not appear anywhere on the Top 10 - meaning a further lack of promotion for them.
I'd find it better if there was some segmentation that makes both groups of players visible and gives them a chance on fame; the "professionals" and the ones that are clan and team players, but play more casually. Because right now we'd only see the first group, which will be a relatively small minority to get all the promotion, I'd say.
How about a second Invitational Tournament seeded from Teams that only manage 2 to 3 scrimmages per week?
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Kyren, I think 2 to 3 scrimmages per week is going to be an upper limit on what most teams can manage, not a lower limit.
This system certainly puts late-joiners and casuals at a disadvantage, but there are 12 slots for the end-of-season tournament, with 2 of those spots voted on by the community to choose who gets them. I don't think there are many more than 12 competitive teams in GoIO atm. That means most teams will qualify for the tournament regardless, and even a super casual team has a good chance of getting in if they can convince people to vote for them.
If Merry men won the first against corvus, then the two teams played again, merry men would not gain a second point if they won again.
The rule is as it reads.
Erm, I suggest re-reading my post, because that's not what I was saying at all. Smollett got it right. With the current wording, the system is very vulnerable to win-trading. I'm not sure I'm capable of typing it more clearly without sounding terribly condescending.
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Erm, I suggest re-reading my post, because that's not what I was saying at all. Smollett got it right. With the current wording, the system is very vulnerable to win-trading. I'm not sure I'm capable of typing it more clearly without sounding terribly condescending.
My apologies, apparently my brain derped a touch while reading it.
Yes, it is very vulnerable to win trading at the moment, and we'll probably have to go back and revise a rule in there. As for now, I do find it amusing that in a competitive system, there is fear of teams being too nice to one another. Quite a caring community we have indeed.
So regarding newer teams, and more teams playing, remember that the invitational tournament is a 2v2, so only 8 players in the large clans can claim the prizes for winning. Which will (hopefully) promote the formation of new teams and clans.
(Hopefully I'm making more sense this morning)
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So regarding newer teams, and more teams playing, remember that the invitational tournament is a 2v2, so only 8 players in the large clans can claim the prizes for winning. Which will (hopefully) promote the formation of new teams and clans.
(Hopefully I'm making more sense this morning)
So the invitational tournament is open to clans, not to teams? That's an important distinction to make clear, particularly for clans like The Ducks with three competitive teams. (i.e. "The Ducks" would be invited to the tournament, not The Paddling, and there could only be one Duck team in the tournament. Not picking on The Ducks by the way, they're just a prime example for a clan with multiple teams.)
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As far as I can tell multi-team clans can only enter one team in the tournament.
It's not optimal for us, but we'll make do.
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Ducks have two points but no skirmish record recorded?
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The Paddling has had two scrimmages so far, but it seems like somebody's forgotten to record them.
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Indeed. This is getting quite the issue.
So is nobody actually marking down teams or skirmish times here?
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I'm half tempted to photoshop up an Unofficial Official Seal Of Approval From Sammy B T.
Oh yeah, and I'm excited for the thing and gl;hf.
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As far as I'm aware, some teams are waiting a bit before signing up and committing. I think they're waiting til the Q&A session on Friday to get a better understanding of the system you're creating. The sign-up list may be empty right now, but once you lay to rest whatever concerns people have, I'm sure you'll see the doc fill up with the expected names.
Also, I'm sure some people are waiting for someone else to be the first to sign up before committing.
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Well the thing is, this is similar to the original Cesports which the majority of the teams voted down, cept for the Ducks. Ducks were the only ones really heavily pushing this. Rest had some very big concerns. Various reasons but one major one is folks do not think the game is in a state where it can do this. Will it be in the future? There was a consensus that it would. Why the Cesports changed into a concept which would eventually grow into this in the future but was only laying the foundations in the present.
Fair warning, you guys are going to be grilled quite hard on this. Dunno if I'll chime in or not. Sat through hours of a session the last time this was discussed. Not really up for that again. Myself I share same concerns Brick has so, I'll leave it at that.
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Well the thing is, this is similar to the original Cesports which the majority of the teams voted down, cept for the Ducks. Ducks were the only ones really heavily pushing this. Rest had some very big concerns.
We were no different from anybody else with regards to the CeSports system. We had a bunch of concerns that we discussed in the thread, just like every single other clan involved. Some of our members were fully behind the idea, but to say that we heavily backed it is a sweeping generalization.
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Yeah, I don't remember being in love with CE sports, however the new system alleviates a ton of the concerns I had with the old system.
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Yeah I don't recall this Duck propaganda.
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I'm half tempted to photoshop up an Unofficial Official Seal Of Approval From Sammy B T.
Oh yeah, and I'm excited for the thing and gl;hf.
Any Unofficial Official Seal Of Approval From Sammy B. T. will recieve an Official Seal of Approval From Sammy B. T. This in turn would make it an Official Unofficial Official Seal Of Approval From Sammy B. T. with an Official Seal of Approval From Sammy B. T.
Concerning the Duckian position regarding Cesports. I recall the ducks being initially split on the issue. I remember Fluitaire and I had an hour long "discussion" about it one night, loads of fun. I am not sure how one can really say the Ducks were pushing heavily for it. Sure, we worked at figuring out how to best engage in the system that was supposed to be the future of GoI competitive gaming. But that aint heavy pushing in my book.
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Can we not muck up this thread with clan politics? This isn't my CA badge talking either. I'd much rather see criticism on the new system. You can point fingers in pm's.
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so the dutchmen has 1 point since we defeated the gents?
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Well, it hadn't started yet but you'll get a point if you beat BFS tomorrow.
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so the dutchmen has 1 point since we defeated the gents?
It it was an agreed skirmish, or a tournament, then yes; send in a screenshot of the win.
I have also just added in the points from the spire tournament, which yes, was a part of this. We've been live since the original blog post.
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if the spire tournament was part of the new competitive system, would the mini-rumble that was held the same day also count? (If so, that would be 4 points for MM, 2 points for FALCO for our respective wins. Was BO3 format)
Just to clarify, though, i thought the post about the new competitive scene went up after the spire tournament?
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The Spire tournament was Aug 3rd. The competitive scene post was the 5th.
And if you are implying that the front page post started it, there is no wording in there to suggest that. The closest is this :
We’ll be hosting a kickoff event over the livestream of Qwerty2Jam next Friday, 8/9, at 3pm Eastern to chat with everyone and celebrate. The full rules have been posted here.
A kickoff event would mean it starts on or after this date.
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It Starts now!
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The System is live as of this moment so if I get a screenshot of two clans fighting 5 minutes from now it counts if they want it to.
Remember to send in the screenshots to competitive@musegames.com ~Morbie
But I too remember this going up after the Spire tournement
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Sounds like a bit of miscommunication between keyvias and morbie?
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Honestly, I wasn't even aware of this post until during the stream today. I voiced my concerns about it. Honestly, I feel things might work out a little better if the points were reset and we kicked off this new system with a new major event. Squash had some really nice ideas during the stream.
Seeing as how the ducks are currently in first place, and will be hosting a this major event. How do the ducks feel about a point reset for this system and start it off fresh with your event?
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If it only started today and the ducks have 8 points?
Edit- nvm only saw this today after i saw there was a stream.
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It didn't start today.
It Starts now!
The Ducks have played and won three scrimmages since then.
But what I find strange is that the results from last week's Spire tournament are being included...
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I thought competitive GOI was headed in the right direction with the individual events themselves being the focus, but it seems that has changed.
I addressed my concerns with the old CESports "points-for-participation" system very extensively in discussion threads and skype conversations. If you want to see my thoughts more extensively anyone can go back and check them. I am exasperated and saddened at the thought of having to have the same arguments about an idea that I thought was safely dead and buried. To summarize: it burns out and/or alienates smaller clans, gives the advantage to clans that can play more, and is as such not legitimate as any sort of competition, let alone the focus of GOI competitive play.
On top of this, I can see no end of problems with clans bickering over what constitutes a scrimmage and a victory under this system. I also feel sorry for whatever two clans are going to have to ask for votes to compete in the tournament because they're latecomers or can't get together enough to grind points by constant scrimmaging.
It's very sad that this seems to be already underway when it really wouldn't be that hard to make a league where teams play an equal number of games, so numbers on the scoreboard would actually be meaningful and it would also make it fair on the smaller clans. Sure, it might not fill that desperate and inexplicable need to amalgamate all competitive play in GOI, but would that really be such a bad thing?
I'm probably not going to argue about this too much, because I already feel like I'm repeating myself, but I have to at least get my feelings about this out of my system, especially since I've spoken to many others who share my concerns.
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Yeah I don't see any reason to keep it in there, we didn't think the Spire tournament would be part of the system, so we're fine with redacting its points.
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Due to the extreme amount of confusing surrounding the spire tournament, we've taken the points out of the totals.
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So, who did the Ducks beat for the 3rd point?
Also, as a note, they're still listed at 8 points in the clans/team sheet :)
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Yes they are. I'm about to edit the entire thing back down.
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Wait, why are all of the points gone now? We should still have three.
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Corvus have signed up.
I want to make it clear that we aren't interested in playing only point scrimmages. If you want a regular training match, we'd be willing to do that too.
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So.
Cogs.
One point to MM, BFS, Ducks, yes?
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Yeah I don't see any reason to keep it in there, we didn't think the Spire tournament would be part of the system, so we're fine with redacting its points.
I think there was a miscommunication following this post. Squash only meant the Spire tourney points, not, you know, the scrimmage points that we worked for.
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Right, all the points are in from the week so far. Ducks have managed to cap out at 5! Merry Men have 1 point, and BFS are also on 1 point
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Alright,
Truly, I hate to be a stickler for some things, but I would really like to see some sort of competitive system succeed, and as it stands right now, I'm scared. There is no record of any skirmishes (with the exception of Ducks v. Cake) to tell me if these points are justified or not. I understand that the points for MM, BFS, and 1 of the Ducks (which I need to address later) are from Cogs, but I have no record of any of the previous Duck skirmishes nor our own, to reference back later. Now, in regards to the Paddling's victory over the Brood, I was under the assumption, that the team that they signed up with was the "Ducks", and none further. Shouldn't this point be excluded due to the fact that there was only one "team" playing? I want to stress that I really, really, really want some form of competitive system in place, so that we can see the type of high level play that you cannot see in regular matches. That being said, I would like to offer any assistance I can possibly give to help the cause. I also apologize for any feelings that may have been hurt with this post, as that is not it's intent. I am merely trying to make sure that all rules are understood and followed.
Thanks,
Shinkurex
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Yeah, why weren't the other Duck scrimmages recorded in there? That's something that should get fixed.
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I was going to reply last night and then I saw the other scrims aren't in there so I figured I would wait for a more alpha duck
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Hey there guys, just wanted to address why the points are in there and there is a general lack of anything in the record sheet. Whenever we get an email from one of these skirmishes with a screenshot, we go in, and add the point to the total. The only reason we haven't recorded all the skirmishes is that over half of them have been done on the spot with no planning. Thus we don't have the info. We do, however, have screenshot proof of this, and we're using these to tally that. As this seems to be an issue, I have added in the teams involved in the other games that the ducks have played.
Regarding multiple duck teams in the cogs (or other tournaments), we have taken this into account, and who are we to stop people from wanting to play the game as a team? The system in place to stop farming is that if one clan has multiple teams, but only want one point total (like the ducks) then they will only get points from the team that scores the most points.
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A heads up to everyone involved that it is now 00:15 Monday EST. That means week 2 has started. No confusion about this, you have from now until 12:00 Sunday night EST to accumulate those points for week 2.
Happy flying everyone
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I've had a few questions regarding the point cap and underdog points. I've added the sub-clause into the rule set, but to clarify I will repeat it here.
"The exception to the point cap is through underdog points. Through these a team can theoretically gain 10 points in one week, and thus take the lead in points."
So with the ducks currently in the lead, there are some serious points up for grabs right now.
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would it be possible to make the screenshots public?
I would like to have some more information about the individual games.
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would it be possible to make the screenshots public?
I would like to have some more information about the individual games.
That we can! I'm just trying to find the best way to do this at this current time. Hopefully we can integrate it into the upcoming addition to the website in the long run.
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Right, you can view all the match wins here http://imgur.com/a/NoJdA
Note that this is an album for week 2 wins, and will be updated as we go.
We'll continue to use imgur albums for now, and each game in the skirmish record will have a direct link, or links to the images.
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So to account for Cogs today...
+2 to Ducks
+1 to Gentleguard
+1 to PaFa (then again, they aren't listed)
And then Ducks also won a scrim against OVW and one against Cake, I think. Have pictures been sent in for those?
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I think we only get one for Cogs but we should have maxed out on points anyways since we won a scrim against gents, pafa and musausaurs as well this week.
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Yeah we only get one point from Cogs, but we did hit our 5 point total.
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Alrighty guys, I've added the results from day 1 of the Flotsam Dynasty Campaign to the leaderboard.
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We really need to get the clans/teams with points to sign up on there. Apart from it just looking sketchy, we lack contact data in case we want to try getting scrims.
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Ok, I've signed up The Bully Boys (I think). Fundamentally, we acknowledge that we can't play as many games as a larger clan, and are at an inherent disadvantage as far as the scoreboard is concerned. Still, we would like to play scrimmages against good teams, and at least get points for the games we can play.
When we are competing with BFS captains and mostly BFS crew, our team name will be Black Flight Squadron. When we are competing with Haven captains and mostly Haven crew, we are flying as Haven. When it's half and half, we compete as "The Bully Boys". This is just so TOs know how to neatly label us in tournaments and events.
I do this with a sense of resignation, but also with a sense of happiness that we'll get more opportunity to test out some of our newer captains and crew against good competition. This system is, I'll admit, in many ways more well thought out and simple than the old cesports system idea was. Though it would be nice if the system was 100% fair, I suppose we'll have to work with what we've got.
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and are at an inherent disadvantage as far as the scoreboard is concerned.
Underdog bonus can get you 10 points a week ^^
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and are at an inherent disadvantage as far as the scoreboard is concerned.
Underdog bonus can get you 10 points a week ^^
Yes... if you play at least 5 scrims. However, if you're playing 5+ scrims a week then you're not a team that can't play often XD
If anything, it means that a clan that plays more often can get back into pole position even faster in the unlikely event it slips down the leaderboards.
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So that's a point to Ducks and a point to Sky-Invading Rhinos from Cogs, I suppose.
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I changed what I could from corvus to Glowwater Thralls.
can someone with editing power fix the other tabs?