Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: N-Sunderland on July 03, 2013, 01:30:55 pm
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We don't need the Mobula and New Build threads to get clogged with general speculation about 1.3, so here we go. Speculate.
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With the heavy clip change and the fire extinguishing/chem spray nerf coming at the same time will gunners become the new meta or will three engineers become necessary?
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I tested greased on the gat yesterday and it seemed to be terrible. Too many missed shots. On the other hand, heatsink will once again be important for keeping flames at bay. It'll take some testing to figure out.
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Let's talk about achievements. First, I hope the bugs will be fixed. For me, I almost cannot level past 8 on pilot because many are capture 50 or 100, white whaler, etc which are bugged. Secondly, I hope they change either the wording on defend, or better yet change it to mean killing a ship while you are on a capture point. Let's face it, as it works now, it's almost impossible to complete 50 defends with a galleon.
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I don't care too much for the achieves myself.
I'm just having a whole lot of trouble figuring out the meta. Flamethrowers meta? Yes. Mine launchers? Yes. Mobula? Maybe.
But what will happen to gatflak? Heavy clip will still be necessary for longer ranges, but you'll be dropping so much DPS from that fire rate decrease. You'll need to get up in their face to actually have the gat do something (you need to get, so, so close up to make the gat hit a decent amount without heavy). For that reason, plus the flak losing effectiveness from the heavy nerf, maybe we'll see mortars being used more often? But then you're also putting yourself at risk against flamethrowers.
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I tested greased on the gat yesterday and it seemed to be terrible. Too many missed shots. On the other hand, heatsink will once again be important for keeping flames at bay. It'll take some testing to figure out.
Actually that's the true spread of the Gatling, you are just too spoiled by using Heavy clip all the time like, probably, all of us.
What I expect from 1.3:
1. Rage
2. Prettier UI
3. More indirect carronade nerfs (because you can never have enough of those)
4. The already effective snipers are now the new 100% solid metagame.
5. Gat/Flak's range got the middle finger.
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Erm... I know... I was just saying greased specifically because it's viewed as the best option outside of heavy.
And yes, the UI is getting much, much better.
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I did forget something if fire cooldowns are indeed changing, and that is Heatsink.
Though, that makes it more a requirement again.
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I was just kidding :P
Still, the firing rate nerf on Heavy clip pretty much screws over carronades, especialy the light ones, and they didn't need more nerfs, even if indirect. So now that the brawling builds got a massive hit, I'm curious to see if the game will devolve into LJ spam or I don't even know what.
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Heavy in a light carronade wasn't that great anyway. I always liked greased more.
It is rather funny how carronades always get indirectly nerfed though.
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From what I've heard, the carronade seems to be the most viable way to deal with mines.
And you know that there are going to be lots of those in the upcoming days.
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Heavy in a light carronade wasn't that great anyway. I always liked greased more.
It is rather funny how carronades always get indirectly nerfed though.
the Hellhound does get a pretty massive hit from the Heavy clip nerf and the Light ones can still use greased I guess, but still Heavy was a very viable alternative for more focused damage on a single component if you used it as a disable and not DPS
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Heavy in a light carronade wasn't that great anyway. I always liked greased more.
It is rather funny how carronades always get indirectly nerfed though.
the Hellhound does get a pretty massive hit from the Heavy clip nerf and the Light ones can still use greased I guess, but still Heavy was a very viable alternative for more focussed damage if you used it as a disable and not DPS
But how much of a nerf is reducing firing speed on such a low-ammo capacity/slowish-firing weapon anyway?
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If carronades really need it, they can always buff the base fire rate to compensate. Nice quick fix.
As for the change to the extinguishers, assuming it's not a bug, I'd much rather see the extinguish cooldown be on the tool instead of the component. I'd like to see the repair cooldown be separate from the extinguish cooldown. You can justify it as the chem spray/extinguisher needing to build up pressure again before use. It would be more generally intuitive.
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Heavy in a light carronade wasn't that great anyway. I always liked greased more.
It is rather funny how carronades always get indirectly nerfed though.
the Hellhound does get a pretty massive hit from the Heavy clip nerf and the Light ones can still use greased I guess, but still Heavy was a very viable alternative for more focussed damage if you used it as a disable and not DPS
But how much of a nerf is reducing firing speed on such a low-ammo capacity/slowish-firing weapon anyway?
Exactly my view. It won't change much for the heavy carronade, and the light carronade is perfectly good with greased.
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I predict..
- a hot fix within 12 hrs of 1.3 being released.. and another one after 36 hrs.
- that if too much is done to disturb the current meta (gat-flak) there will be toys thrown out of the pram.
- tears before bedtime.
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I just don't think it needed such a downside anyway with all the downsides it already has to its range is all. It won't destroy the weapon and surely won't keep me from running my Blenderfish, but it is an unessesary annoyance for sure.
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Thing is (obviously will need testing) it's not stopping that balloon from being popped in 2 shots of heavy if you hit.
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I haven't played the new version yet, but let us not remove heavy clip gat from the equation. It may be still the most effective armor stripper at medium range. I speculate that this change will mean gunners get put on the gat more often since it will require two types of ammo to work at optimal efficiency. Also all engineer ships will be at a disadvantage if they can't control the range. Having heavy clip on the gat will put the ship at a disadvantage against a gat shooting charged or greased at close range, and vice versa for medium range.
Of course this is all rendered moot if the mine launcher replaces the gat for close range armor stripping.
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What should we expect in the way of performance? That is a question I must ask.
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I haven't played the new version yet, but let us not remove heavy clip gat from the equation. It may be still the most effective armor stripper at medium range. I speculate that this change will mean gunners get put on the gat more often since it will require two types of ammo to work at optimal efficiency. Also all engineer ships will be at a disadvantage if they can't control the range. Having heavy clip on the gat will put the ship at a disadvantage against a gat shooting charged or greased at close range, and vice versa for medium range.
Agree with all of this.
Of course this is all rendered moot if the mine launcher replaces the gat for close range armor stripping.
Can't see this happening. The AoE is huge, you're not going to want to be using it in close range in any sort of brawling situation or you'll just be hurting yourself.
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@Hamster Charged on a gat? No, greased is the only really viable option close up (other than heatsink most likely, but that's a different story).
I fear that the Gatling will have trouble staying that viable. The Gatling currently does 106 armour DPS (not counting the subsequent reload) assuming no buffs and 100% hit rate. With heavy clip, it'll do a paltry 69 DPS. And without heavy? Good luck getting a lot of hits in. You need to be at pretty much point blank to get a good hit rate.
I don't see the mine launcher being used in the place of a gat. You might be able to pull it off with lesmok... Sort of...
(I still think that mines will be OP, though)
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I have a feeling that the merc was touched somehow with the latest balance changes... Whatever it is, I really, really hope it isn't this.
Upcoming is experimentation for Field Gun shots penetrating through objects. Again, this is just testing for now although I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on it anyway. For each NEW component the bullet hits, it will apply both primary and secondary damage. Again, only NEW components. A component cannot be hit twice with the same bullet.
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Charged and greased I have found to be pretty equivalent on the gat. Greased looks nicer with all the hit boxes, but for raw dps they are about the same.
69 DPS per gat isn't that bad when you have two of them in a trifecta. It will lengthen the engagement, but so long as my opponents aren't fielding a more effective combo it should be ok. I think it will be interesting playing the range game against ships setup with closer range equipment. Remember when we used to back peddle from flamethrowers?
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Charged, Greased and Incendiary are all options for the Gatling. Nerfing Heavy Clip may influence the use of the Gat, but I predict that after a while it will have a greater impact on the Flak aspect of the pairing. Gat will stay, but it will find new partners.
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Honestly I've never saw Heavy Clip as a must for the gatling. With the playstyle of most gat-flak users, greased or incendiary always seemed better to me, but then again I tend to experiment.
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I fear that the Gatling will have trouble staying that viable. The Gatling currently does 106 armour DPS (not counting the subsequent reload) assuming no buffs and 100% hit rate. With heavy clip, it'll do a paltry 69 DPS. And without heavy? Good luck getting a lot of hits in. You need to be at pretty much point blank to get a good hit rate.
That's bad. I'd very much prefer to have a less damaging base gatling than an inaccurate one. It is so boring and frustrating to fire the normal gatling, shots go everywhere and its not funny.
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Honestly I've never saw Heavy Clip as a must for the gatling. With the playstyle of most gat-flak users, greased or incendiary always seemed better to me, but then again I tend to experiment.
It's more important to hit with the gat than it is to do anything that the other types of ammo accomplish. Heavy isn't the ONLY ammo usable for the gat, but it is probably the most reliable.
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Obviously I haven't had the opportunity to test it myself yet, but it seems to me, if the only change to heavy clip in gatling is that the DPS is lower (even as significantly as 106 to 69) and all other aspects of performance (range, accuracy, etc) remain the same, this isn't so bad as some people are making it sound. In fact, I think it could really improve some things. I personally don't like ten second engagements, more time in the fray is more fun for me. And, I think something that shakes up the gat/flak meta is a good thing. Double gats are now needed? Bring on the fancier pilot maneuvers trying to get trifectas! Two ammo types are needed for optimum efficiency? The three class system is valid again! (Seriously, does no one else find it annoying to have only captain=pilot, crew=engi?)
All in all, I'm optimistic
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Thing is (obviously will need testing) it's not stopping that balloon from being popped in 2 shots of heavy if you hit.
Indeed you are right and I got informed that the Heavy clip isn't only receiving a nerf, but a slight buff on its spread reduction? Will it be 90% now? Sunderland can you confirm?
If that is true, it will greatly benefit the Hellhound's component disabling ability seeing how the weapon still has a pretty wide cone even with Heavy clip, so that makes me happy, hope it's true.
I personally don't like ten second engagements, more time in the fray is more fun for me. And, I think something that shakes up the gat/flak meta is a good thing. Double gats are now needed? Bring on the fancier pilot maneuvers trying to get trifectas! Two ammo types are needed for optimum efficiency? The three class system is valid again!
Completely agree, many valid points.
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You guys forget vanilla rounds too. You don't have to use special ammo to shoot a gun. Buff a gat with vanilla rounds. Better than greased?
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I predict Muse will have completely ignored the cries of pilots and still not fixed Hydro. Also all my cries about fixing the Squid will remain unheeded because all the effort will have been put on the flying pancake Manta.
The mine launcher will make me insanely happy but ultimately 1.3 will go down as yet another failure by Muse like 1.2. I will then continue to push for personal hosting so we can run older versions of the game which don't turn it into the horrid mess it is.
So, go in with low expectations and then hopefully be surprised. This from two major updates ago where I used to go in with great expectations. Congrads Muse, you are now a big box developer! :D
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(Seriously, does no one else find it annoying to have only captain=pilot, crew=engi?)
I don't know what you are talking about, I only like playing engie and pilot. My gunner ranks are the result of some youthful experimentation I would rather forget.
You guys forget vanilla rounds too. You don't have to use special ammo to shoot a gun. Buff a gat with vanilla rounds. Better than greased?
I was thinking heavy for medium range, switch to vanilla at close if we are still running gat gungineers.
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I predict Muse will have completely ignored the cries of pilots and still not fixed Hydro. Also all my cries about fixing the Squid will remain unheeded because all the effort will have been put on the flying pancake Manta.
The mine launcher will make me insanely happy but ultimately 1.3 will go down as yet another failure by Muse like 1.2. I will then continue to push for personal hosting so we can run older versions of the game which don't turn it into the horrid mess it is.
So, go in with low expectations and then hopefully be surprised. This from two major updates ago where I used to go in with great expectations. Congrads Muse, you are now a big box developer! :D
As condescending as this post is, I'll say that they are going to look into the squid.
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...all the effort will have been put on the flying pancake Manta.
i thought it looked more like an upside-down Belgian Waffle:D
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(Seriously, does no one else find it annoying to have only captain=pilot, crew=engi?)
I don't know what you are talking about, I only like playing engie and pilot. My gunner ranks are the result of some youthful experimentation I would rather forget.
I mean that I like how the game has three roles, each with the ability to do the others but with advantages in their own. I think it adds depth to the game that you really aren't getting if the only difference in roles is whoever's in the captain slot has three pilot items and whoever isn't has three repair items. It feels much more like I'm part of a crew if there are different defined roles than if I'm just filling up a crew slot. If all crew are engineers, it's more like I'm a little worker drone than a daring, swashbuckling skyship crewman, which, in the end, is what the game is all about. Haha I'm not phrasing that very well, I think, but the gist is I like more depth. I agree that gunning isn't very useful right now, which is why I hope 1.3 brings a little bit of validation back to the role.
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There's going to be stuff like this happening with the clan tags.
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff464/timmymonsta/2013-07-03_00001_zps4a107192.jpg)
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So, my opinions, in rapid-fire form-
Mines are silly OP.
Mobula is engineering hell.
The new UI elements in the lobby area are nice.
I really don't like the extinguisher changes.
Mines are silly OP.
Some of the chat changes are good, some are not good.
Mines are silly OP, especially with Lochnagar.
It's fine that extinguishers received a nerf, since they really trivialize putting out fires, but they way they were nerfed makes the chem spray a necessity, and makes heatsink ammo a little too mandatory. You simply can't afford a 5 second repair cooldown in the middle of a fight to put out a small stack of flames. It's much better to pre-spray important components with chem spray so you don't have to deal with fire as often. An experienced crew will know to bring chem spray and heatsink ammo, and generally know how to deal with fires, so this change punishes new players far more severely.
As I mentioned earlier, I'd much rather see the extinguisher and repair cooldowns be separated, and the extinguish cooldown be transferred to the player's tool rather than be on the component. In other words, a player should be able to spray whenever, but only be able to spray again (whether it be on the same component or another) after a set amount of time. Justification could be that the extinguishing tool needs to build up pressure again.
The chat system looks nice, but I don't really like how global and match chat are separated (EDIT: they're separate tabs, so you can't see global chat and match chat at the same time). I get that you're kind of running out of buttons to choose which chat to type in, but this makes me think it might be better to switch over to something like what WoW uses. In other words, press Enter, type /p or /crew or whatever to choose which chat you want to type in, and remember which chat you last typed in when you hit enter so you may not need to type /[channel] again.
Also, in such a team-oriented game, you should not be able to close the chat window.
Mines are a trickier issue to tackle. They're simply too deadly. They're too easy to stack and they probably do way too much damage. I'm not sure how to fix them.
As for the Mobula, I haven't played on it enough to really get a feel for the ship, but I will say that it would be really nice if there were stairs or ladders leading up from the side engines to the area under the center engine. Components are just ridiculously spread apart, so please throw us a bone and make it easier to get all the engines in one go.
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Mines are a trickier issue to tackle. They're simply too deadly. They're too easy to stack and they probably do way too much damage. I'm not sure how to fix them.
Probably bu changing how ammo types affect them.
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Mines are a trickier issue to tackle. They're simply too deadly. They're too easy to stack and they probably do way too much damage. I'm not sure how to fix them.
Probably by changing how ammo types affect them.
That wouldn't change what's fundamentally OP about them, though. Even ignoring special ammo, they're too good.
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I'm not a fan of the balance changes.
(http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/631911119438701865/0C1D095B0D88D0FAA0B1417346AE5246930B9579/)
(http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/631911119438703235/F89ED0306DC1B9833C1B182D3FFC96252224B5D2/)
(http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/631911119438704043/5F18EDB8AC89FF486F7B01B950AD6F931B2223B0/)
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I'm absolutely loving the balance changes. Mines change things a ton and mean you can't just rush a gat flak into the fray and win. Reduced gat spread and heavy clip nerfs are very nice. Fire now does things and keeps a ship disabled properly, giving an actual opportunity to attack.
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If gat/flak is such a mess now then I guess we'll see a resurgence of Flunkers and Pyromidions outside of sniper battling.
I really don't like the reports coming in. Sounds like we are getting some nightmarish balancing and other issues which will likely overshadow the new ship. Sure wish balancing would be brought more to the community. Every balancing that happens is like they turn a gun from slightly OP to so useless no one uses it ever again.
It will be a sad day when mines get nerfed. Till then, I think I will abuse them as much as I can. Yeah I know, I'd be feeding the machine that kills it but theres likely nothing that could be done about that anyways. Probably all mines need is an arming timer to rebalance them.
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Mines have an arming timer though lochnagar gets rid of it.
Heavy clip is no longer useful for long range chain gun since ray cast weapons now have range reduction corresponding to muzzle velocity reduction.
Think the jury is still out on mines and the manta.
Mercury seems too powerful currently, hoping it's dialed back to it's current strength.
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Ok I went in with low expectations and I was surprised. See, it pays to expect the worst in patches!!
1. Gat is far too weak now. I can see the new meta turning into Merc/Flak or Merc/Mortar
2. Chute/Hydro actually work, somewhat. Not 1.1 work but they behave like a buffed balloon cept for a few sec instead of till you hit something. This will take adjustment but it is a step in the right direction.
3. Mobula...name stinks. Ship is going to be interesting and I can see potential for competitive play but the name stinks. Sounds like someone mated Morbie and Scott Bakula.
4. Mob...Manta would have been neater with 2 forward medium guns and a single small gun. There is a lot of seemingly wasted space on the flattop. Yeah, engineers hell.
5. Mines...heh hehe heheh hehehehehehehehehehehehehehe...don't ever change them...heeheh hehe heh heheh eh heeheheheheheheh...HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH EHEH HEHE HEHEHEHEHEHEHE!!!!
6. Squid...still needs a turn rate fix. Still underpowered compared to 1.1. Same for speed and acceleration.
7. Kerosene appears to have been fixed. No more using it to turn faster like the claw.
8. Mines...hehehehehe hehehe hehehehe hehehehehehehehehehhehehehehe
9. Heavy clip should be a slower fire rate but distance shouldn't be cut.
10. Moving the Flayed map achievement...YOU SADISTIC @#$^@#&#@!&#@!!#%@!!!&#*#%*#$*@!!!!!! Please tell me I don't have to do that nightmare again!!!
Guys, when this hits...I am so hosting a Mine Wars event. Junker, Manta, Pyra, Squid...nothing but mine launchers on 3v3...MUHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!! Oh I can't wait.
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new build sucks game play wise new meta mob with 5 mercs why the hell would u buff the merc muse u dropped the ball on this one
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I will probably write something more detailed later for feeedback, but currently i am VERY VERY WORRIED the new meta will switch to sniper camping protected by a wall of mines.
This will be INCREDIBLY BORING.
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Mercs !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
mercs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
upgrade whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
WHyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy MUSE WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY MINE LANCHER IS FUN THO BUT MERCS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ON A MOBULA WHEN U CAN HAVE 4 MERCS FIRING WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Here are some more.
Lochnagar mines everywhere.
Tears and frustration of all brawling players.
Lumberjacks destroying balloons instanly in carronade range.
Mercuries are now even more stupid than before.
Spire is now a true glass cannon with the damage to back it up.
Gat/Flak got thrown out of the window.
Heavy clip range reduction on raycast weapons screws up both Gat and Carronades.
Flames would be viable if sniping was so stupidly powerful.
Weeeeeee! We can now fly up and down faster! To space it is!
Ofiach ragequits the game.
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It... Confounds me that they buffed the merc and the lumberjack. I certainly didn't think those guns were OP, but a buff? For what?
Of course, this is all subject to change. If it becomes clear that some things are a problem, I'm sure Muse will fix them.
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who ever does the balancing doesn't play enough Icarus
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and fire ext cant spray on cool down now that's just dumb if these patch goes uncheck I might just have to sit this one out
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So this is the dev build. Hopefully, they're just testing things out to see what effects they have, just random experiment sorta things, since this is the dev build. Hopefully, Muse don't actually go through with a lot of these changes. Hopefully, Muse is listening. Hopefullyhopefullyhopefully...
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Negative Nancy time.
HIGHLY disappointed with the clan tag system. As a member of a VERY small clan (~90% of which are on extended hiatus due to the lack of competition outside of/inability to attend COGs-prime-time :( ), I was really hoping for some type of actual clan tools - Recruiting , a clan roster, admittance, kicking, reserved tag, etc. All we get is the ability to add four characters before our names. For quite a while I have purposely not been recruit spamming chat, voice, and forums in anticipation of this patch, hoping I'd be able to finally get some pull against the big clans, but I guess not. As it stands, the only ways to be an attractive clan to new players are: 1) Be Ducks/Gents 2) Do well in COGs. Completely ignoring my personal dilemma with COGs time, the problem with 2 being that it's hard to put together a team for COGs if you can't recruit. That leaves you the option to get 3-7 players that you know outside of the game, and form a team or half-team and fill the rest of the slots with random players. Other than that you can SPAM and blindly recruit and accept everyone, which doesn't seem cohesive in a game where actual coordination and teamwork is paramount, but I guess I'll have to give that a try. Cohort is recruiting: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,825.0.html
I love that fire is no longer a total joke, but I don't like it being due to changes with fire-control. Lets say you're about to get hit by flamethrower(s). Your best bet is to constantly run back and forth between components and guns "pre" spraying, which means you're not shooting. Miss one component, and it's gonna have a LOT more than 3 stacks of fire on it before you can say "Mobula" - Taking the time to remove multiple stacks of fire with chem spray is not a good idea, so that component is now effectively dead. Or... you could bring extinguisher, and constantly run around putting out fires, except you won't be able to ALSO be repairing things. So as soon as the fire is out, you're gonna get another one during cooldown. Components are slowly chipped away, and your ship is effectively locked worse than during "Artemis Buff Week". Any other strategy that I can think of involves using multiple engineers, usually 3 (one repairing, one spraying, one extinguishing) but maybe you could sneak by with two (chem/extinguish). If you've got nothing but repairs going on, yeah you could keep up with the fire, but again you're effectively "locked", as you won't be putting out any damage. Parking on top of an enemy with an all flame squid is stupid effective. I understand that this makes fire more powerful (MUCH NEEDED), but it makes it that way by making the repairs less fun for engineers, not by increasing the strength of flames.
I understand WHY it's there, but I'm very scared about mines having team damage, not to mention the only weapon with the possibility of a team kill. I've never rage-quit a match before, but I can't guarantee that once this patch goes live. Between trolly players, new players, and strategy-impaired players, I'm assuming there will be a lot of friendly mines floating around. Without any way to spot them or have them on the map, and considering that you CANNOT see behind and above you on the pyramidion (probably other ships too but who cares), backing up in a brawl just became a nightmare. Some type of automatic spot on friendly mines would totally fix everything about this complaint.
Now some quickies:
The new heavy clip: Could someone explain to me WHEN it is supposed to be useful? It's totally completely and utterly useless now.
Mercs: Why did they get a buff? Seriously. Just WHY?
Mobula: Seems easier to kill than spire, especially with ~50% of the ship being a blind-spot. Best bet flying it is 3 AI crew, all mercs. Park in a corner, F2. Scary effective.
Lets end with Good Things: UI looks way cleaner. New ship/gun models are very nice. Forming a party has good potential, but between 'form party' and 'form crew', also the potential to be confusing as hell. Enjoying the new room-chat, and party-chat.
PS. Cohort is recruiting: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,825.0.html
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3. Mobula...name stinks. Ship is going to be interesting and I can see potential for competitive play but the name stinks. Sounds like someone mated Morbie and Scott Bakula.
Yeah, or Mob (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mob_%28video_gaming%29) (or MOBA, bleh!) mixed with Dracula... Ugh.
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Heavy clip is still great for light flak, hwacha and carronades.
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Here's the new brawling build for a Goldfish
Heavy Flak loaded with Lochanagar, double Gatlings. Make a pass with the gatlings till their armor is down, turn around, blow them up instantly with the Loch shot from the Heavy Flak from point blank range.
Also remove carronades from the game while you are at it, the LJ can do the same thing they were build for in their range now and is much more accurate :P
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@Smollett On the light carronade? I don't think so. That reduced fire rate and range end up giving greased the edge.
@Echo What I expect to see is the double loch merc Pyra paired with loch flak Goldfish on close-range maps. Get up close, destroy their arnour with the mercs (if they shoot simultaneously, it's an instant destroy on the armour of every single ship), and finish them with the flak.
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Heavy clip on light carronades is quite good for component destruction.
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@Smollett On the light carronade? I don't think so. That reduced fire rate and range end up giving greased the edge.
@Echo What I expect to see is the double loch merc Pyra paired with loch flak Goldfish on close-range maps. Get up close, destroy their arnour with the mercs (if they shoot simultaneously, it's an instant destroy on the armour of every single ship), and finish them with the flak.
Well what are the possible meta builds?
Double Merc Pyra + FlakFish
Double Merc Pyra + Lumberfish
Sniper Galleon + 2Merc/Brawl Junker
2Merc/Brawl Junker + Merc/Mortar Pyra
Flame/Mine Squid + Merc/Mortar Pyra
And of couse the best of all, Kamikazidion, with double Mine launchers front loaded with Loch rounds.
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Umm are you forgetting the tri merc single Artemis Mobula. It's pretty nasty.
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Umm are you forgetting the tri merc single Artemis Mobula. It's pretty nasty.
Oh god, indeed, forgot about the new ship due to all these crappy changes to guns that didn't need them :P
Also 2Merc/Flak Spire. Evil.
Anyway, may Jesus have merc on us.
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Don't forget the dual flamer + mine launcher Squid.
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Don't forget the dual flamer + mine launcher Squid.
I didn't:
Flame/Mine Squid + Merc/Mortar Pyra
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Don't forget the dual flamer + mine launcher Squid.
I didn't:
Flame/Mine Squid + Merc/Mortar Pyra
Missed that, sorry.
Five mine Junker.
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Five mine Junker.
The 'Minehive'
or the 'Hive mine'
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I expect the snipe Galleon build to be merc/flak/lumber left, flak/lumber right, mine launcher rear.
I expect the brawl Galleon build to be merc/flak/lumber left, flak/lumber right, mine launcher rear.
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I expect the snipe Galleon build to be merc/flak/lumber left, flak/lumber right, mine launcher rear.
I expect the brawl Galleon build to be merc/flak/lumber left, flak/lumber right, mine launcher rear.
lol'd more than I should have
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That's only the start! Wait 'till I tell you the difference between the sniper Pyramidion and the ramming Pyramidion:
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Actually, to be fair, the brawl Galleon will probably have a left side mine launcher. Lochnagar party!
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And suddenly all those crying about tarcide now have a new much more potent enemy. Minecide!!!
lol...you know its coming. Specially bad for sniping. Take too much merc damage..."Hey Jimbo, lob a mine at me!" "Well alright!" *BOOM!* "Wee, that fun! Thanks man, new ship ftw!"
That and Loch suicide rammers. Pyra with double mine front. "FROGBLAST THE VENTCORE!!!"
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The suicide should be fixed now, the last source of enemy damage will receive credit regardless. At least that's what my kamikaze-midion rides have taught me consistently.
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So... The merc also got a piercing damage buff... From 75 to 85...
...
I've got to say, I'm speechless.
(I'll write a whole essay or something about mercs in my e-mail to Muse)
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I already wrote my essay. I worked harder on that then most of my college essays...
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I'll write mine tomorrow.
To add insult to injury, the gat also had its recoil increased and its reload lengthened. Looks like the intention isn't only to knock the gat off its throne; it's to finish it, bury it, and forget it.
So yeah... I'll be sending that e-mail in tomorrow (hopefully).
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Well I hope they read those essays and forget about buffing the merc cause if they do this game will turn from shooter to horror.
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Do you guys mind posting those mail here also?
I would like to write one too, but if i am to say the same things that you do, i might as well not to it.
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Go ahead and send one too. The more people giving feedback, the higher the likelihood of something being done.
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Do you guys mind posting those mail here also?
I would like to write one too, but if i am to say the same things that you do, i might as well not to it.
Which is exactly why email is a bad method for doing such things (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1565.msg27689.html#msg27689) when you already have a good forum.
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Did a preview of Minewars in 2v2 earlier...IT WAS FANTASTIC!!!
4 Mobulas, all mine guns, loads of hilarity!!!
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Did a preview of Minewars in 2v2 earlier...IT WAS FANTASTIC!!!
4 Mobulas, all mine guns, loads of hilarity!!!
Haha those runs were amazing. Learned a few tricks in them too. Like forcing explosions for a chain detonation... oh the carnage :O
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So from the sounds of it the merc buff (apart from penetration) was a mistake. It should be getting fixed, apparently.
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Oh good. Now I don't have to go find stamps for this letter.
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That's really great news. My faith has been restored!!!
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Is the game clock running at a different speed (faster) in the Dev App? - everything appears to turn faster and it seems to take less time to cross the map.
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Mercury changes: we upped the reload time to 7.5 seconds on the dev app, let us know how it feels.
(Yes this is longer than it was in 1.2, to compensate for the implicit buff of piercing projectiles)
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No, that's exactly what you shouldn't be doing. Set all values back to 1.2.1, but decrease the piercing to make up for penetration.
Looks like I will have to discuss mercs extensively in my e-mail after all.
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Actually I think that is a perfect change. All values should return and reload should be upped to 7.5. It makes sense now that Lochnagar is back.
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My e-mail will be delayed until tomorrow while I think about the merc and stuff. It's a bit of a weird situation.
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So we tested the mayhem a mercury can cause to a Galleon. 2 Shots completely cripple all your heavy guns and one more will destroy your engines, you don't even have to aim well for them anymore, just shoot through the ship and you got the Heavy already.
Say bye bye to Galleons if penetration gets implemented.
I make a plea to think of the people that play on the enemy ships as well and not just the guy that shoots the gun. Think of how awful that would be for a spire, a loch shot will take its main gun and hull armor down in just one shot. This is just sad. It's even sadder to think that this penetration feature was 'intended'
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That's why there should be some sort of damage degeneration as the projectile passes through the ship. And a minor nerf to the piercing damage.
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I do not like any sort of penetration unless the shot loses at least 80% of its power after penetrating one component. This penetration renders ships with heavy guns far more vulnerable to mercury fire than they already were and makes disabling engines a piece of cake even if they enemy ship is facing you.
In short, don't keep buffing the damned snipers, they don't need it. Especially after the massive nerf to brawling builds. Sniping is already meta, doesn't need more buffs.
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Yeah, don't make heavy guns easier to take out, or people who are actually good at it will be less valuable.
*shameless self-plug*
:P
But seriously, sniping should take some skill. It shouldn't be "Lol so i point dis gun at dat ship and liek a gun two engines and stuff die lol"
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Added poll to accompany merc discussion.
The first person to make a joke about the word "penetration" will... Erm... [inner monologue]Think of some kind of threat... Or a challenge? Fight to the death? Chess boxing? This is harder than I expected.[/inner monologue]
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(and of course, just a reminder that the patch changes are a work in progress and subject to change)
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News just in by the way, Lochnagar shot now will instantly break Light guns again. Just tested it in the Dev App
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Booooooooooo
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You're saying that you liked loch mines and Pyras with double loch mercs?
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You're saying that you liked loch mines and Pyras with double loch mercs?
The mine damage is also decreased. It's not as absolutely devastating now.
and yes I agree, Loch Spamming with Mercuries was horrible. Smollett, don't let the evil sniping gods mess with your head. You know it's evil.
We were just testing earlier along with Watchmaker, hopefully we made him realise how awful both the buffs and the penetration of the mercury is.
On the other side, the Heavy clip nerf isn't as horrible as everyone makes it out to be now we tested it properly and the Gatling is even more of a raygun with the new spread reduction. Though the initial nerfs to the gatling were uncalled for and should be reverted.
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Ya, I don't think mercs or LJ's should be nerfed, but I think gat's and flaks should stay as strong as they have been. That way all ranges have viable builds that are dangerous. Sure some people will say "well if medium and long are range are strong I'll go long, it's safer". Okay sure, but this will make ship choices more determinate; you may need to think about a squid now for your gat/flak to close quicker, junker may now not cut it. Maybe now you take a junker for your mine launcher boat.
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Field Gun has been further nerfed. Decreased projectile speed but with decreased drop as well. Leading your shot is crucial. Field Gun is not a viable armor breaker anymore.
No changes have been made to LJ, if there are any then it's unintentional.
Lochnagar dmg has been nerfed in favor of arming time buff.
Gatling spread not as big anymore.
That's all the detail I'll go into for now. Some of these changes were here this morning. Some are new.
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So gatling is the only armor breaker, followed by what, carronades?
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Yeah, so it sounds like gatlings are absolutely a requirement now, if they weren't enough already.
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You guys are forgetting about the third piercing weapon:
The Harpoon!
All jokes aside, we need more vairity in our armor strippers, not less.
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How does changing the projectile speed make it less of an armour stripper? Is there something that isn't being mentioned here?
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This is what's happening:
I made the Field Gun a little better at armor breaking along with increasing gatling spread and people say that the field gun is too powerful and fulfills too many roles and the gatling is useless. This was all an attempt to offer another piercer other than gatling. I take the field gun's piercing out and now people tell me that now gatling is required (it is currently about half its original piercing).
Is there any middle ground? You know, this makes my work very difficult. But yes, I knew exactly what I was getting into when I made the field gun piercing nerf. In fact, this reaction is purposefully elicited.
I hope this sheds light on the predicament here and on what's at stake. For 1.3, no new guns can be added. I am not changing damage types on guns. The only guns that deal piercing are as follows:
- Field Gun
- Harpoon
- Gatling
- Mines
I don't want to touch harpoon until I can get more features out of it. Mines do not significantly fulfill the role of a dynamic and offensive armor breaker. All we have is the field gun and gatling.
I await your suggestions.
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2 other damage types are also fairly effective as armor killing (when compared to everything else)
- Fire
- Impact
The weapons that deal fire damage are:
- Flamethrower
- Banshee (by way of ignition chance)
- Any explosive weapon that has large single hit dmg like flak (ignite chance is built into explosive dmg numbers, higher the more % ignition chance)
- Flare gun
- Mines (by way of ignition chance)
The weapons that deal impact:
- Mines
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Point is that they didn't need to be changed in the first place. A merc buff leads back to 1.0 matches, which we all can agree no one would like. You already nerf the gat by nerfing heavy ammo, so roll with gatling unchanged and try that.
This is my opinion, but mercs and gats are fairly balanced right now. People want more options but that requires more guns which as you say, isnt going to happen now, so thats how that works.
The issue with nerfing heavy clip is then you indirectly nerf any gun that can successfully use it. Sure you get gat in there, but you also grab carronades and hwacha, which don't need nerfing (opinion). So you look at the gat itself. Maybe a small clip size nerf? Then greased will look nicer for its increased clip size, or you go for more precise fire at the cost of lower dps.
Mercs also don't need penetration. It's cool and all, but I just had to face against 5 of them pointed at me last tournament, and god forbid if they were knocking out multiple components with one shot. You would have to nerf it so hard, that it would lose its purpose to begin with, so I'm not for that.
We all appreciate the work you and Muse do for us.
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Leave the Mercury's damage as it is in 1.2, give it the reload nerf, forget about any other buffs to it unless you still wish to give it the wider gun arc so a Spire can get 2 of these on one target with some effort.
Revert any nerfs to the gatling, it never needed them.
I would say that you need to reconsider the thought of Muzzle speed affecting raycast weapon range. It currenlty makes using both the gatling and the carronades way harder than it needs to be and carronades don't need even more indirect nerfs.
If not that, at least consider removing the muzzle speed penatly from Heavy clip, the Firing rate penatly is already more than enough of a DPS decrease for any weapon that makes use of it.
Nerf the arming time bonus on Lochnagar, please don't nerf the damage bonus to anything lower than 200% as it will break its already great synergy with the Heavy Carronade and just turn it to a HF/LJ round.
Basically.. I agree with Zill and thank you for responding here, it is much appreciated.
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Agreed with everything Zill said.
I don't think mercs needed to be changed at all. I get changing heavy clip in an attempt to make gatlings with heavy clip less ubiquitous, but as Zill said, then you're also indirectly nerfing things like carronades which are a little underused as it is after their last nerf.
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I've been focusing on the weekend tournaments and am not exactly certain on the current state of the 1.3 build but I am of the opinion that some sort of gat nerf was necessary, whether through heavy clip nerf, direct nerf or both.
Nerfing the gat in and of itself becomes a buff to the mercury; since relative to the only other piercing weapon, it becomes significantly better, and as it already is quite a good gun it seems that a slight nerf (not as large as the gattlings nerf) to it as well makes things balanced.
awkm, you have no idea the tremendous respect we have for you. The delicate balance of the game and dealing with everyone's opinion about it is no easy job, but we really do all have faith that you'll get it right and are incredibly grateful you take the time to listen to our opinions.
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Penetration can be tuned so it doesn't go through a ship completely. With production values, is the Field Gun even used to disable components? In my opinion it's not happening enough due in part because of occluding hitboxes, some piece of the hull might just block your engines. I will tweak this, but I think the feature needs to stay in order to get around clunky hit boxes (I can't change some). It's not gong to be absolute penetration but partial. It's as if penetration wasn't a feature, but you could actually hit something that you could see.
Field Gun and Loch returned to a state similar to their previous.
Heavy Clip removes all spread at cost of -30% ammo.
Gatling will maintain a +0.5 degree spread from production values and increased reload time.
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Also, the other thing that *might* make it to penetration is decreased dmg after every consecutive penetration. Therefore, I can maintain shooting through stuff but not necessarily kill a bunch of stuff at once.
It's a code change so I don't know if that will go in.
For now, maybe reduction to field gun shatter might be in order. This will also eliminate luck shots, you need to hit twice to disable components.
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With production values, is the Field Gun even used to disable components?
You mean currently? Yes by all means. It's got the dual purpose of disable and armor destructs.
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With production values, is the Field Gun even used to disable components?
You mean currently? Yes by all means. It's got the dual purpose of disable and armor destructs.
Agreed 100%. The merc is already an amazing disabler.
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How about this for Field Gun:
- Penetration stays, penetrates the entire ship. Tweaking penetration amount is opaque, it's hard to judge where you can hit something from. Penetrating through a ship and hitting an engine feels awesome.
- Decreased shatter so that it takes 2 shots to kill engines and big guns. 1 shot for small guns.
- Increase reload time... let's say something like 10s.
- Increased rate of fire (double tap possible)
- Still only 2 ammo in clip
- Small AoE (currently 0.85m radius, or even lower)
- Decreased Projectile Speed but decreased drop too (leading required)
This eliminates the luck shot of penetrating through everything and destroying a crap ton of components. You need to hit something TWICE. I can make it so the rate of fire still requires aim readjustment between shots. Maybe 0.25s time between shots.
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The fire buffs are certain to make it a more interesting battle structure. Flare guns might be a viable armor stripping option.
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As a regular user of the mercury field gun, here are my thoughts regarding your proposed changes:
I am not sure I am such a fan of penetration. It is indeed impressive be able to take out a row of guns on a galleon, but I think it is unnecessarily powerful. Considering the length of rebuild time on large guns, I think that the current dynamic is quite fine - simply let the gun one-hit kill the single component that it touches.
10s reload time is way too long; current reload time seems quite reasonable, given the difficulty of hitting components at range vs. the time it takes to repair them.
Increased rate of fire to double tap doesn't seem very realistic for the style of weapon that the merc is (a slow-loading long-range cannon).
Decreasing the projectile speed again seems unnecessary; plenty of leading is currently required to hit moving targets (or to hit while moving) with non-Lesmok ammos.
I regularly play with one of the best Mercury gunners in the game (Sunderland) and then current dynamic of 6s reload time, one-hit non-penetrating component kills seems like a good balance of risk vs. reward. I feel that your proposed changes would too seriously nerf the gun.
I do see the value in decreasing the piercing damage. It doesn't seem right that grouped merc fire should be able to singlehandedly drop targets from extreme distance.
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Problem is that many components are occluded by invisble hit boxes that I cannot solve.
I think Penetration needs to stay to mitigate this. It might be time to bite the bullet and accept changes to the gun.
If you're a tester, please try it.
I am looking forward to tester feedback on this.
Although, the Field Gun is just a big goddamn slippery slope. Every time I touch it, I'm asking for it. So yeah, I know this. FML.
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God, I love the care that goes into this game.
But to backtrack for just a second, it was my understanding that the Heavy Clip nerf was to shake up the meta (as it is a similarity between the Gat and the Flak).
Nerfing Heavy, in my opinion, is either going to cause more coordination between Combat Engineers in pub matches (everyone bringing Heavy won't cut it for close quarters engagements) or cause us to see a few more gunners.
Like I mentioned, all of this is for pub matches, seeing as that's where I spend most (all) my time in-game.
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Nerfing Heavy, in my opinion, is either going to cause more coordination between Combat Engineers in pub matches (everyone bringing Heavy won't cut it for close quarters engagements) or cause us to see a few more gunners.
Heavy is now no recoil but -30% ammo in clip.
All balance changes have a heavy focus on pub matches. While yes, field gun could always kill stuff with one hit... it's very hard to position to kill those things. Penetration makes it easier for pubs. However, it makes things WAY TOO EASY for pros. Now there's dbl tap kill. 2 shots to kill all engines and medium guns.
I hope it works.
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Which components in particular are you referring to with regards to the invisible hit boxes? I've only ever found the guns on the Pyramidion annoying, apart from the occasional dead hit on a heavy gun with absolutely no effect.
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Problem is that many components are occluded by invisble hit boxes that I cannot solve.
I think Penetration needs to stay to mitigate this. It might be time to bite the bullet and accept changes to the gun.
If you're a tester, please try it.
I am looking forward to tester feedback on this.
Although, the Field Gun is just a big goddamn slippery slope. Every time I touch it, I'm asking for it. So yeah, I know this. FML.
Penetration could stay, but penetration through the whole ship is unessesary.
I think the one shot kill of components needs to remain for the Mercury, making it harder to hit with by slowing down the projectile is fine, but not absolutely nessesary. But here is where the penetration becomes a bit too powerful, but if you can reduce the damage it does after it hits one component, I think it will be fine. You can still hit engines and weapons a bit more easily, but it can't destroy a row of components easily and can not be used to both destroy a component and damage the hull as well for a full shot's damage.
I also think that if penetration is to stay, the piercing damage the mercury deals should be lowered, then it can keep its original 1.2 reload and shatter damage.
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I still think that if Explosive damage type was a bit better at getting armor broken down and a bit worse at getting killshots at an exposed hull, it would be a step in the right direction. The damage types have been drifting further apart into extreme specialization, and I think it's compounding the issue with paired weapons, especially THAT set of paired weapons. And right now, because of this, a ship with armor stripped either takes almost instant death or almost no damage at all, and gatling/flak hasn't so much become the preferred strategy as it's become practically the ONLY close-range strategy. This game is so unique and interesting in part because kills aren't GOING to be lightning-fast like in so many FPS games nowadays and instead calling for a lot of interaction between everyone involved... but lately, the kills have been getting faster and faster.
Assuming that explosive rounds become a more generalized damage type, ships that are unable to use paired weapons now have a better chance at being able to get kills or finish a ship on their own power, piercing weapons stop being a strict requirement and accelerate the process instead of being a requirement, and the flak finisher is still able to deal big chunks of permanent hull damage at once without bringing engagements to an all-too-rapid close.
And that last point I think is perhaps most important of all. The fact that we have a hullbreaker type and an armor piercing type means that a ship becomes vulnerable very quickly and vulnerability is a death sentence for many ships; to be honest, I don't think that a single armor break (assuming a fast and dedicated response) should be enough to conclude a battle.
Or if that's too far gone to consider at this point, give the gatling a much longer reload time, give the flak a slower firing rate and a slightly faster reload time. Make it so people will want to actually fire off a few flak shells instead of holding their shot for the inevitable (and very reliable) armor break, and so the flak cannon can't dump all its damage in the span of a second or two.
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All balance changes have a heavy focus on pub matches. While yes, field gun could always kill stuff with one hit... it's very hard to position to kill those things. Penetration makes it easier for pubs. However, it makes things WAY TOO EASY for pros. Now there's dbl tap kill. 2 shots to kill all engines and medium guns.
My concern with this is, if a pub can't position correctly and make the shot, the penetration isn't gonna benefit him at all anyway, while it does break the gun in the hands of a decent player, for better or for worse. The double tap currently is a bad thing in my eyes, while the penetration along with the one shotting components is definately a nightmare come true.
I stand by my suggestion to make the shot penetrate a bit but deal 70% less damage to each consecutive component it strikes. So first hit is 100%, second hit is 30% and then third is even less.
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Is it possible to make the Field Gun shells penetrate only hull/armor/balloon, but stop once they hit a component? That would mitigate excessive component destruction, and reduce the need for potentially gun-ruining nerfs like 10s reload time and 2 shot medium weapon kills.
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For the record, as a frequent user of this gun, the only time I have difficulty disabling components is certain light weapon mounts on certain ships (but even these can be hit from certain angles). I would be much more frustrated by the increase in reload time or multiple hits necessary to disable single components. It works very well as-is as a component disabler.
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I also like Echo's suggestion of lessened damaged for subsequent penetration component hits. But I think the gun needs to be able to one-shot any component it touches initially, given its currently difficulty of use and reload time. Few people in the game are really able to use it effectively as a component buster, even with its relatively lower reload time and higher shell speed - it takes coordination from the captain to provide a steady shot, as well as a lot of skill on the part of the gunner.
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Is it possible to make the Field Gun shells penetrate only hull/armor/balloon, but stop once they hit a component? That would mitigate excessive component destruction, and reduce the need for potentially gun-ruining nerfs like 10s reload time and 2 shot medium weapon kills.
This is an idea I really like. It prevents people from disabling Galleons in two clips (I tested it today, and it's kind of sad...) while also giving players in pub matches a boost in terms of ease of disabling, and letting everybody get around the aforementioned invisible hitboxes. If this was implemented, you could keep the 1-shot component kills, old reload time, old projectile speed, etc. The only thing I'd recommend would be to lower the piercing a bit (not much) since getting components disabled and taking major hull armour damage is a bit much.
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Is it possible to make the Field Gun shells penetrate only hull/armor/balloon, but stop once they hit a component? That would mitigate excessive component destruction, and reduce the need for potentially gun-ruining nerfs like 10s reload time and 2 shot medium weapon kills.
Interesting. This may be our solution here. Although damage reduction could be enough as well. Depends which is easier to implement at this point.
This does fix the problem of "luck shots" where just a seemingly randomly placed shot on a ship breaks a bunch of stuff. This is why I'm leaning towards lowering shatter and requiring 2 shots to kill major components. It also does not need a code change. It already works right now.
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I agree with Sunderland. Make the gun penetrate armor/balloon/hull but stop at components, drop piercing damage to prevent massed mercings at range, keep current shatter damage (that seems to be the primary purpose of the gun now, as opposed to pure armor/ship destruction), keep current reload time and ballistics.
Again, having to two-shot main engines & medium guns seems an unnecessary overnerf due to the skilled involved to hit such components at range. Keep in mind that the gun has to be fired at medium to far range due to its small rotation. Depending on how much the shatter damage is reduced, it could take three or more hits to disable medium guns if the gunners are on the ball repairing their guns with mallets, or possibly even wrenches. This seriously complicates one of the main uses of the weapon, as a viable counter to ranged medium weapons that allows brawl teams, with some skill and luck, to suppress enemy sniping fire and move in for a close-range kill.
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@Frogger: Are you a tester? If you are, then I urge you to try the dbl tap. The rate of fire now is very fast. It will still require slight adjustment between shots or a the proper lead up to it, but I think it's very nice.
If you are not a tester... then I can't really respond a whole to speculation. Your feedback is of course appreciated though.
Right now, of all the recommendations: dbl shot is the only thing that's in the build. Everything else requires code changes and I don't know if we have time for that.
The team is deciding on this matter soon. In the meantime, try dbl tap.
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I am a tester, and I just logged on to give it a shot.
Admittedly, I only tried it Sandbox vs. the floating dummies, so I can't give you a thoroughly battle-tested opinion.
First, I personally do not like the feel. It suffers badly from the ever-present ghost shot bug. Though I make two or three clicks in rapid succession, I get BOOMBOOMBOOMBOOMBOOMBOOM, whereas I would expect only BOOMBOOM. This has been an issue for a while with a number of other guns (merc, med flak, light flak), and it'd be nice to have it fixed, though knowing nothing about code I cannot say what would be involved.
Second, it seems like the shots are fired so quickly that they might as well go off at the same time. Why bother with double tapping?
Third, it doesn't seem appropriate for the weapon. It's a long range cannon, not a machine gun.
Those are my preliminary thoughts. I will try to log on tomorrow with a few of my clan members to give it a shakedown in battle.
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Also, the visual jitter effect from firing the weapon makes the follow up shot much more difficult (though perhaps that's intended, can't say it's necessarily a negative)
Finally, I don't always reliably see two shells exiting the weapon upon dbl-tap firing. This makes judging the effectiveness of your shots and recalibrating your aim much more difficult, and just doesn't feel right.
PS thanks for all your hard work. Goes without saying that I love this game :)
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I have to say... Shouldn't the release of the new version be when it's ready, rather than in whatever state it's in at a pre-determined time?
I'm sure most players would understand a delay if it meant a better version eventually releases, and also less needing to adapt several times to things being changed again.
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I'd much rather that penetration is delayed until the next patch if that means that something like Frogger's suggestion can be implemented.
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Penetration will be delayed. Field Gun will remain the same as 1.2 until penetration goes in. Everything else will go in.
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Penetration will be delayed. Field Gun will remain the same as 1.2 until penetration goes in. Everything else will go in.
You're the best, Eric!
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Penetration will be delayed. Field Gun will remain the same as 1.2 until penetration goes in. Everything else will go in.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/212/719/93956%20-%20animated%20party_cannon%20party_time%20pinkie_pie.gif)
Sorry, had to.
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Thanks, Eric. I think the dynamic of the gun is really quite fine as it is, with the exception of 1) the difficulty of hitting certain light weapon mounts and 2) the un-funness of being mass merc'ed at range (though #2 is certainly up for debate). Paradoxically I think two-shot component kills would make it even harder for pubs to use the gun as a disabler, so I think this is the best course of action until you can iron out the code wrinkles for penetration.
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Given that we have only 2 piercing guns, we need to make them balance.
I think what we want is this:
Let's start by lowering piercing multiplier to armor by around 30%. Increase it by 15% on hull health instead. Hull goes down way too fast currently. Ships behave like fighters, not warships.
Mercury:
long range, able to destroy armor easily. At medium ranges, able to destroy components easily.
Short range should be useless
Gatling:
Should be able to be much stronger than mercury if you can get in its range. Already can't hit at long range.
For this i propose:
Gatling maybe should get increased rate of fire the more you keep firing, but but as rate of fire increases, gun turn radius should decrease. (and jitter should increase, but you said you can't do that right now)
Fire speed should be around 50% of what it is now for the first shots, up to 200% fire rate (and -60% turn rate) after a few seconds of fire if possible.
I think gatling should be really accurate for the first 10 shots or so, but you said you can't do that right now, so you have jitter. Still, it has TOO MUCH jitter in 1.3
Mercury, i would add a potent screen shake to zoomed view whenever you are hit with high-damaging projectiles (other mercuries, lumberjacks), and medium shake when the ship is going faster than speed 1.
Mercury damage is fine as it is.
Additionally, projectile should accelerate at longer distance, having 70% damage at short range and up to 120% at longer ranges, or 150% for extremely far shots.
Mercury should keep the 10 or even 15 more degrees turn angle, since it nerfed in other respect when close range.
What we get:
Snipers wars are funnier with screen shakes, gunners must time shots to win.
At long range, due to medium screen shake on ship movement, you can't really hit components unless you are really good or completely stationary. At shorter ranges, it is easier to do so.
If you CAN get close, you have a big advantage with gatlings. If you can't, you are in trouble, but one ship CANNOT keep firing indefinately at long distance without support, because the close range ship will eventually get close.
At short distance, mercuries are not completely useless. You get no screenshake if unzoomed, and the turn angle of the weapon allows for return fire.
Possibly not in this patch, but i think ammunition must change too.
I'd go for heavy (or something else) greatly decreasing jitter, decreasing rate of fire, slightly increasing damage.
One ammunition type should be for mercuries. I'm thinking penetration bullets
A new type of ammunition: it should create a small (harmless) white cloud where the projectile lands, impairing vision to other snipers if aimed correctly, but also leave a very visible smoke trails to bullets. Produce modifiers so that it mostly only feasible for mercuries.
I dont think it can be much more balanced than this.
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I sent a pretty idea as an e-mail regarding the Mercury and what could possible be done, hoping to see a responce from muse soon c:
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If you CAN get close, you have a big advantage with gatlings. If you can't, you are in trouble, but one ship CANNOT keep firing indefinately at long distance without support, because the close range ship will eventually get close.
See, that's just the problem with the merc. It's actually very difficult to close distance against one. At far distances, you can't outrun a ship sitting there turning to face you. If you move in to tank those shots at medium range, suddenly more shots are hitting meaning you can't tank them and a lot more of your components start going down.
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Well, one merc isn't scary. Five was....
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If you CAN get close, you have a big advantage with gatlings. If you can't, you are in trouble, but one ship CANNOT keep firing indefinately at long distance without support, because the close range ship will eventually get close.
See, that's just the problem with the merc. It's actually very difficult to close distance against one. At far distances, you can't outrun a ship sitting there turning to face you. If you move in to tank those shots at medium range, suddenly more shots are hitting meaning you can't tank them and a lot more of your components start going down.
I know.
That's why i proposed that modification.
At long range, you will take some permahull damage, but screenshake will prevent most gunners from oneshotting your components.
At medium range, the mercury will do less hull damage (ideally you would be able to tank 80% of the damage of 2 mercuries), but screenshake will not be enough to prevent them for destroying your components, so you have to take care of that.
When you get to short range, as brawler you have superior firepower (but probably lost some permahull and maybe some components) so both ships can still fight, advantage to the brawler of course.
Of course, a sniper's strategy should be to let a teammate distract the enemy, so that it can continue to fire at long range.
With heavy screen shake on ship movement, the long range ship can't really keep distance up if it wants to hit anything.
The sniper's role should be to
a) do hull damage at long distance to support other friendlies
b) snipe components to defend against incoming ships at medium range
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Component disables at long range aren't the problem with sniping. Hell, that's how I prepare for rushes against long-range Galleons. The problem is the huge amount of armour damage they do from long range, which builds up to a lot of hull damage too.
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No changes are going to be made for the Field Gun. They will remain at 1.2 balance. It's already at a place where any changes cause everyone to flail.
Penetration and more piercing weapons will be delayed for another update in the future.
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Next patch... buffed harpoon!!!!!
Honestly, long range combat - advantage mercury
Middle range combat - advantage gattling
Short range combat - advantage harpoon!
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The harpoon used to be good... The Lucky Duck slinging ships in the Paddling-MNS match on Duel was simply majestic.
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Yeah, harpoon used to be epic on the Galleon.
A lot of folks have been asking for the ability to let the gunner control the harpoon's reel. Obviously this would take coding but this mechanic combined with a much stronger pull than currently in game combined with a higher pierce damage would make this gun incredible.
I'm thinking at least 1.5 times the pierce of the mercury with a overall dps greater than the gattling if you harpoon spam. Close range armor destruction to a ship that can't control it's own gun arcs would be awesome. Would be a sweet advantage for brawling teams that closed.
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A lot of folks have been asking for the ability to let the gunner control the harpoon's reel.
Yes, I've brought this to the table. We want to do it, but this begs us to ask if other weapons also have secondary fire mechanics.
It could become complicated.
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The right mouse click is already called AltFire or something similar in the options, rather than zoom, which is what it currently does for all guns it does anything for at all, so why not have an alt fire capability? I think being able to control the harpoon reel rather than zooming would be welcomed.
Also does set a precedent where other guns could have secondary fire mechanics rather than zoom. Perhaps flares, one for normal "detonate" and one for long-range (giving it an arming time, basically), for those times you want to use the flare but are in a cloud...
Another option would be to keep the zoom as it is, and add another key for secondary fire. This would mean guns could have new mechanics without having to lose the zoom.
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but if i can't zoom with flares, how am i supposed to snipe things at their max range? =(
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With a mercury? :P
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But then he wouldn't be nauflarego.
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With a mercury? :P
Mercs don't have a 90° fire arc or set everything on fire =p
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With a mercury? :P
Mercs don't have a 90° fire arc or set everything on fire =p
Muse plz fix.
(NONONONO!)
Anyways, you still have lesmok flare.
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Btw you should check the new dev app, a lot of things have changed.
I don't know about gatling balance, but everything seems better now.
Especially heavy ammo (no recoil, -25% clip size).
I just would want to see lowered armor damage now, especially at range
(exhchange clip size nerf for heavy for rate of fire?)
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Nerfing heavy is a delicate thing because other guns that need all the help they can get use it well.
The gat (as far as I know) received a reload nerf in the app. That coupled with lower ammo should ease the pain.
I like where the app went with the changes so far in terms of balance.
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I like how it was changed to -25% ammo for heavy instead of -30%. That would have been a disaster for the light carronade (even though four shots isn't optimal, it's waaay better than three).
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I'm fairly certain it was because -30% took heavy carronade down to one shot. Not ideal at all.
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Oh right, I didn't even consider that.
I'm not a big fan of how the gat's base spread was increased. Any ammo type other than heavy already has a terrible hit rate.
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Maybe, but it draws you closer, and I kind of compare it to a hwacha lacking heavy clip. You have to get close, you still miss a few shots, but you get most in there and keep pressure on. They probably want to raise the skip cap of a gat, as we can't deny 1.2 heavy clip with gat is, well pretty simple.
It opens up a lot of ammo's now like greased, incendiary, ect. More spray and pray.
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I'm not a big fan of how the gat's base spread was increased. Any ammo type other than heavy already has a terrible hit rate.
Something tells me that has to do with Heavy now being suboptimal at closer ranges, meaning a gunner can switch ammo type to something with more dps (besides normal) and outshine his engineer counterpart... wishful thinking :P
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Right, and that's definitely a good thing, but even when you're really close up a lot of shots still miss, unless you're shooting a Galleon at point blank. I know that other people have tested it out, and in 1.2 they were finding that heavy clip gat did more DPS than greased even when close up due to all the misses.
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Well, we can check the math for viability.. Heavy now loads 45 shots into the Gatling compared to 60 normal(for reference) and 72 greased.
So we can agree, gatling base fires 60 rounds @ 6.25/s leading to 9.6s of fire time while Heavy fires the 45 rounds @ 6.25/s leading to only 7.2s of fire time.
For simplicity's sake, 1 base gatling round = 1 damage. Thus we will apply the 20% modifier from greased as 0.8 damage.
Let's get the total damage based off normal for greased: 72*0.8=57.6
Multiply up the fire rate (+60%): 6.25*1.6=10/s
Apply the new fire rate to the new clip size(72): 72/10=7.2s of fire time
So to compare: Heavy deals 45 damage in the same time Greased deals 57.6 damage. That's a 12.6 (let's just say 12) damage difference per clip.
So ideally, as long as you can expect to land at least 61 of those 72 shots, Greased will outperform a full unload of heavy. Allowing an 85% accuracy rate to outperform the 100% accuracy rate of heavy. Obviously this is dependent upon gunner skill, but this is certainly something to take into account as perfect accuracy is a double-edged sword. Being a lasergun means any miss will lead to multiple misses as you reacquire target - sometimes a spread is a good thing.
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Yup, and there's the problem. Greased doesn't have an 85% hit rate. Ships like the Junker have such a small hull profile and such a high density of components that it's literally impossible to land enough hits. Try it out. You're not going to be getting 85% in unless the enemy ship is sitting a few metres away from your gun.
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So ideally, as long as you can expect to land at least 61 of those 72 shots, Greased will outperform a full unload of heavy. Allowing an 85% accuracy rate to outperform the 100% accuracy rate of heavy. Obviously this is dependent upon gunner skill,
Greased doesn't have an 85% hit rate. Ships like the Junker have such a small hull profile and such a high density of components that it's literally impossible to land enough hits.
But what about hitting a Galleon, or any other ship with a larger profile? The exception seems to be the sleek design of the Junker, but not the rest. And, like Chrinus' conclusion- it depends on Gunner skill, and if he can use it, Greased will outperform a full unload of heavy.
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Yup, and there's the problem. Greased doesn't have an 85% hit rate. Ships like the Junker have such a small hull profile and such a high density of components that it's literally impossible to land enough hits. Try it out. You're not going to be getting 85% in unless the enemy ship is sitting a few metres away from your gun.
Optimaly, you want to use Greased against ships that have a larger profile than the Junker outside of point blank range, but that is something you just have to do, doesn't change the maths, the ship is just so damn small, still, the increased DPS is reason enough to close distance now instead of just standing there in mid range, cause now the Gatling will require an 98% hit rate to actually strip armour even on light ships and you wouldn't strip a Junker's armour in one go of Heavy clip anyway, the Junker has 700 armour, the Gatling with 45 bullets, assuming perfect accuracy, will deal 765 armour damage, even if their engineers are total nutjobs, they will get a Mallet stroke in there upping the total damage you have to deal to 950. So you won't be taking out their armor anyway with Heavy.
Which means 3 things:
Using the ship with the lowest profile of them all isn't realy valid.
Using a ship whose armour you can't even drop in one go with Heavy clip isn't realy valid either.
Junker indirectly buffed. lol.
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I think that's just the nature of a Junker though. If you manage to get it's hull armor down, and don't kill it, you failed somewhere. It's kinda funny when people insist of focusing on the junker's hardest point to hit.
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From what I've seen, the decrease in clip size for Heavy Clip is not too bad. It doesn't nerf the Gatling to the point of making it weak, it's still the ultimate armor striper. For other weapons, like the Caronade having 4 shots rather than 5,it's also not TOO bad of a change. Those four shots can still annihilate a balloon. Haven't checked the Hwacha, but it can't be too bad.
This'll at least make it viable to use other ammo types more.
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I think that's just the nature of a Junker though. If you manage to get it's hull armor down, and don't kill it, you failed somewhere. It's kinda funny when people insist of focusing on the junker's hardest point to hit.
Bring a heavy carronade and watch junkers lose armor with record speed! Last night Echo and I wrecked a junker so quick our ally only really had to throw explosive at it (we had a blenderfish).. dead before they even knew what happened.
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I think that's just the nature of a Junker though. If you manage to get it's hull armor down, and don't kill it, you failed somewhere. It's kinda funny when people insist of focusing on the junker's hardest point to hit.
Bring a heavy carronade and watch junkers lose armor with record speed! Last night Echo and I wrecked a junker so quick our ally only really had to throw explosive at it (we had a blenderfish).. dead before they even knew what happened.
Shh.. don't spread the secret sorceries I use.
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On the subject of the gat...
Let's compare greased rounds to the new heavy.
Greased: 10 rounds per second, 13.6 damage per round
DPS: 136
Per clip: 979.2
Heavy: 6.25 rounds per second, 17 damage per round
DPS: 106.25
Per clip: 765
Ok, so that's a pretty big difference.
Now, buff hammer to the rescue.
Buffed heavy: 6.25 rounds per second, 20.4 damage per round
DPS: 127.5
Per clip: 918
Is the little bit of extra damage from greased worth it, considering that you can get a vastly more accurate buffed heavy?
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Sunderland loves his buff hammer. You could also buff with Greased ammo to do some serious damage, though you really wouldn't have to. I agree that a buffed Heavy Clip would be better than just Greased, but ships won't always have a buff hammer.
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Now show us buffed greased.
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It all depents, buff will last for a single clip, unless you clear up the engagement, you won't have enough time to both shoot and buff the gatling again, which will leave you with crippled damage unless everything goes according to plan.
At least that's how I see it. Remember pin point accuracy isn't always a good thing, the slightest turn will be throwing even the best gunner's aim off and with the lower clip capacity, every shot you miss counts a lot more than before.
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Buffed greased would suffer from the same issues as normal greased, and it'd be awkward to pull off. You'd need an engineer to buff the gat, then run over to their own gun. It might work on anti-Galleon Pyra builds, but that's about it.
And Echo, your argument would be perfectly valid if it wasn't wrong :P The gun buff lasts 20 seconds. 7.2 second clip, plus a five-second reload. The buff lasts two clips. In addition, the two reloads from those clips add up to 10 seconds. It takes 6 seconds to buff a gun.
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Are you still assuming a 3 engineer build? If so, this is all going to get stupidly confusing again.
You silly people.
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I'm assuming a three-engineer build if you choose a buff hammer over greased.
I'm assuming a two engi, one gunner build if greased is being used.
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Buffed greased would suffer from the same issues as normal greased, and it'd be awkward to pull off. You'd need an engineer to buff the gat, then run over to their own gun. It might work on anti-Galleon Pyra builds, but that's about it.
And Echo, your argument would be perfectly valid if it wasn't wrong :P The gun buff lasts 20 seconds. 7.2 second clip, plus a five-second reload. The buff lasts two clips. In addition, the two reloads from those clips add up to 10 seconds. It takes 6 seconds to buff a gun.
Forgot the Gat doesn't have 60 bullets anymore with Heavy, silly me.
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To only worry about the gat though is a little short-sighted though. Light flak loaded with heavy is only 3 shots now. Not an instant kill for many boats.
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To only worry about the gat though is a little short-sighted though. Light flak loaded with heavy is only 3 shots now. Not an instant kill for many boats.
Yeah, this will definitely have me playing around with other ammo on the flak. Probably burst, but we'll have to see how things work out. This also makes another argument for more mortar use. (Now I just need to get better at hitting with it)
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It's an instant kill against a Junker... And that's all. With a buff you can also get the Spire and Mobula in one clip, I think.
Honestly, I think that greased is a better choice than burst for the flak.
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Since we are no longer speculating: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1605.0.html
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Locking thread. Please use the thread linked by Zill for further discussion.