Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Seamus S on June 24, 2013, 01:03:27 pm
-
Two new medium weapons: If I were a GOI captain living in that world, I would find a way to bolt two Gatling guns together and set them on my medium mount. Likewise, twin flamers (with a bit more range and ammo capacity) would make a terrifying medium weapon.
Since we need more medium weapons (and we desperately need a medium piercing weapon) I would put these two concepts up for consideration. They have the advantage of using existing mechanics. They wouldn't even change the meta all that much (aside from giving more choices) since you can already run dual flamers or dual gats if you want. It would give galleons and goldfish some interesting new options. I'm all for more choices, so let's hear it for fire breathing goldfish!
-
(and we desperately need a medium piercing weapon)
Actually, we really don't need a medium piercing gun. That is unless you want a more powerful gat/flak equivalent on a galleon, killing ships in mere seconds. Not to come off too blunt, but we really don't need that.
A heavy flamethrower though, I could go for all day.
-
This game could use a medium piercing weapon but I would prefer it to be difficult to use. The medium weapons seem to be a high risk/reward alternatives to light weapons. More damage per shot, longer reloads, slower projectiles. Having a rapid fire large capacity medium weapon (Hwacha doesn't count) would disrupt the game balance.
If there were to be a piercing based medium weapon I would like it to be a Balista, or rail gun. Some thing single shot with a long reload timer and impressive range.
I do like the name "Hellmounth" for a flame thrower.
-
Instead of a fully dedicated piercing weapon, how about a weapon with very small, secondary piercing damage
-
I'm all for a medium-flamer! Imagine...
Turning the ship around for one last full throttle ram in a pyramidion and suddenly... A belch of flames erupts from the crippled spire that engulfs your screen in a cleansing fire. The pilot's eyes melt and drip out of their skulls, the engineer's tools pool at their feet, and the gunners ignite immediately with all of the gunpowder on their bandolier. The engineers do their best to repair the hull by whacking their teeth against the hull pipes, but its no use- its all over.
-Not for the faint of heart-
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5ozx7iP3x1qcwic6.gif)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypZNiSHBb_s
-
Rear-mounted heavy flamer, suddenly you have an extra rocket engine...
Side-mounted heavy flamer, suddenly your boat can strafe...
-
Rear-mounted heavy flamer, suddenly you have an extra rocket engine...
Side-mounted heavy flamer, suddenly your boat can strafe...
Actually... that would be pretty damn cool. A really powerful flamer that not only incenderates everything in it's path, but also pushes you in the opposite direction of your aim.
-
This game could use a medium piercing weapon but I would prefer it to be difficult to use. The medium weapons seem to be a high risk/reward alternatives to light weapons. More damage per shot, longer reloads, slower projectiles. Having a rapid fire large capacity medium weapon (Hwacha doesn't count) would disrupt the game balance.
If there were to be a piercing based medium weapon I would like it to be a Balista, or rail gun. Some thing single shot with a long reload timer and impressive range.
I do like the name "Hellmounth" for a flame thrower.
The Gat/FLak would be tougher to pull off on a Galleon. The Medium Version of the flack cannon has range minimums to deal with. You'd have to be at exactly the right range for the gat and the flak (not too close, not too far)
More than that though, I hate seeing game balancing issues taking the place of common sense issues. This game world insists that a weapon like the gatling gun exists and that it performs how it performs. Given those assumptions why would anyone NOT want two of them on the side of a Galleon if they could put them there. What would prevent them from putting them there? The enemy pirates are gonna complain that you're OP? Seriously? It's related to the same problem I have with artificially restricted firing arcs and gun placement in general. It doesn't feel authentic (I don't really care about realistic, but I like things to be internally consistent to the world i'm playing in.) If something is easy to do and logical within the game world and you can't do it because of balance issues, then it's poor game design at a higher stage. It's something that needs to be addressed further up the chain.
*Edit, This was more of a reply to Zil, but I quoted the wrong post. Still applies.
-
This has come up before.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,572.0.html
-
Kind of making my point for me.. this isn't ~Authentic~ It DOES NOT make sense given what we are being asked to assume about the world. Ask me to believe in huge, flying, steampunk airships? Fine. Ask me to accept that they use gasbags dozens of times too small for their mass? Fine. Gats exist in the world. Their properties are well known and used by IG people every day. Ask me to believe that a person who uses these Gatlings every day would NOT try to stick two of them onto one of his larger gun mounts? Not Fine. Further, ask me to believe that he wouldn't take one of those useless light weapons on a different ship and shift it's firing arc to something that actually makes sense? Not fine. Ask me to believe that any sane engineer on a squid wouldn't rip up those stupid left and right engine catwalks and turn them so they are attached up near the rear gun port for ease of engine access? Not fine.
If the best argument against doing something simple and logical is "Because, um...balance" Then there are larger problems in play.
-
Balancing engineering routes and gun arcs is completely fine. I don't see your problem here, you want all of the guns to turn 360 degrees around, do 400 damage a bullet and be able to repair everything by pressing a single button? I'm exaggerating yes, but seriously that doesn't sound like much fun to me, why not have a gun with full explosive and piercing damage? That would be completely broken.
-
Well, weapon arcs make sense because of reloading equipment, ammo storage, gun weight, recoil dampeners, heat sinks (not to be confused with the ammo type), fuel lines/powerlines. And the big one: Cost. A gat will be cheap man, a heavy flak? Not so much.
Outside of game balance, the flak would be VASTLY more damaging than a simple gatling gun.
But yeah, I have no idea why the weapon placement on a spire is what it is. (The Galleon makes sense because, you know, port side. Docking equipment and etc.).
I don't understand the problem you have with the Squid engines. The current setup is probably done to minimize drag and so forth.
I think everything is pretty consistent, real engineers don't always make the best decisions. You ultimately do have to bow to balance, but you can come up with an in-world reason for everything that makes perfect sense if you look deep enough, just give Muse more time to flush out the background.
-
The end goal is to have fun. It is harder to have fun with a game system that is out of balance than one that doesn't meet up with your expectations of what is realistic or not.
Realistically there should be nothing that would stop goldfish manufacturers from canting the side guns 45 degrees forward. The Goldfish would be a much more effective ship if it could get two side Gatling guns and the main gun on a single target at the same time. Realistically any shipwright or captain with a penchant for ship alteration would do this. But balance wise this would give the goldfish an unfair advantage, and the game would be filled with Metafish.
Realistically there is enough room on the galleon for 6 people, and probably an extra light gun or two. That thing is huge. It can afford dead weight like carpeting, wooden safety rails, and a crows nest (nobody uses). There is even space for it some extra guns, that whole forward facing gap on the gun deck would be perfect for another light gun. Heck, put two down there and make it as much a threat as pyramidion.
-
Again, kinda making my point about the game having larger issues. I mean, why wouldn't you shift the arc of those goldfish side mounts? If a ship builder wants to sacrifice side and rear coverage for a stronger forward punch, let them. You can get a medium and two light guns to bear on a spire. You can get two mediums and a light on a galleon. How come the goldfish gets the short end?
I guess if I can't answer the question "why would a person who was in this world be or not be able to do something." then it makes it difficult for me to believe in the world. These sorts of believability issues will become more and more important as Muse moves towards adventure mode.
Oh, also, a dual gat would very likely have a longer reload time. It would take twice as long to reload, as you're basically reloading two weapons. This is an example of something that would aid balance while still being totally plausable within the game universe.
-
If the best argument against doing something simple and logical is "Because, um...balance" Then there are larger problems in play.
Sorry, but if you're unable to accept game balance as something that needs to happen in said games because it's not how you would do thing in real life, then you should probably re-examine your point of view on games in general.
-
Every game has its flaws and gaps in logic.
Why don't the Seals in CoD just bring in a tank from the beginning and wipe the floor with the other team?
Why does the Australium elevator in TF2 move so slowly?
Why doesn't Conner die from falling from so high in Assassin's Creed, even if he does land in a bail of hay?
There are a million and a half "If video games were real" videos on YouTube, and they are fairly entertaining. The overlying joke is, if video games followed the rules in real life, they would be stupid and no fun.
When it comes down to it, it's a game.
And a game that's no fun has no point in being played.
HOWEVER, that doesn't mean your ideas are broken.
It just needs a little (here comes that word) balancing.
Anyone remember Star Wars: Battlefront 2?
Really? Just me?
Okay.
Well, there was a class in that game called the "Clone Commander." He had a heavy gatling gun that could rip through the enemy droids like nobody's business.
However, this gun had downsides.
One, it was HUGELY inaccurate, only able to kill things from the sheer output of bullets.
Two, it took a while to spin up. Not Heavy's gun from TF2 spin up, where you can push a button to get it ready.
This gun's firing button and spin-up button were one in the same, causing you to waste ammo and give away your position if you tried to spin it up early.
If we were to implement a Heavy Gatling Gun here, it would have to be inaccurate (so it couldn't be a sniper with the Heavy Flak) and take about 5 seconds or so to spin up (so surprise attacks would be viable to take them down).
That's just my take on things.
-
I think the best you could put as a heavier version of the gatling is something akin to the WWII Anti-Air guns, so not realy a gatling and it would need a long reload time, it would start firing slowly and then pick up the pace and it would have to be balanced around heavy clip as well cause we all know everyone brings that and how the Gatling became a raygun with bullets. It could also use the same shells the Mercury does with an arming time, so if you are too close the 'explosive' rounds don't go off so you lose a crap top of damage. And since it would be raycast, lesmok, heatsink and the like wouldn't work on it, so no arming range changes.
-
Gatling guns are so effective as is- adding a medium Gatling wouldn't be fun... I believe that no one would ever have armor in a match that contains one. If it was made extremely inaccurate or had spin up time... then there'd just be ramming Goldfish that go point blank to blast them down. I think the topic shouldn't be about another Gatling... but instead, about another, unique piercing weapon that doesn't replicate another gun's shooting style.
-
I heard someone say ballista earlier.
A sort of medium gun harpoon without a rope. Kinda hard to aim, one shot before reload, maybe even have some mass to it so the giant bolt gives a little push.
-
Gatling guns are so effective as is- adding a medium Gatling wouldn't be fun... I believe that no one would ever have armor in a match that contains one. If it was made extremely inaccurate or had spin up time... then there'd just be ramming Goldfish that go point blank to blast them down. I think the topic shouldn't be about another Gatling... but instead, about another, unique piercing weapon that doesn't replicate another gun's shooting style.
I was just putting an idea out there, I don't realy want an other raygun armor stripper tbh, I just like theorycrafting x3
On that note, you have already established that Piercing = Bullets with the Mercury and the Gatling and if not that, then a Harpoon, but the Harpoon is not made to actually deal out punishment.
Having a single shot Heavy Mercury, despite looking and being awesome, would probably be as bad as a heavy Gatling and if you don't have that, then what? A Ballista? Same thing as the giant Mercury tbh, you just launch a giant arrow instead of a shell. Never mind the sillyness that Lochnagar would be on such a gun. It would need to be incredibly difficult to shoot and heavily penalized for close range engagement, to a point of, why even include it?
-
How about a rail gun that projects a shot instantaneously but has a 2 second delay between pulling the trigger and shooting. To make the gun harder to use the gun could be locked (as in Locknigar locked) during those two seconds.
-
A mercury with Loch is already a one shot armor destroyer, such a ballista with Loch would do no more damage than the field gun.
-
A long time ago I proposed a heavy harpoon gun which uses the harpoon rope to guide a cart full of bombs from one ship to the other. As a counter the engineers could break off the harpoon before the bomb cart arrived. The devs told me that they had considered harpoon removal as an extra engineering task but felt it would complicate the game too much.
-
How about a rail gun that projects a shot instantaneously but has a 2 second delay between pulling the trigger and shooting. To make the gun harder to use the gun could be locked (as in Locknigar locked) during those two seconds.
That sounds interesting, I like it, but then comes the next question, how much damage does it do?
-
Basically need a Pyramidion gun. Fire mini Pyras at ships that ram into them and knock them off course.
Twin Gat would work but it would have to be a static mount gun. Think water world where that guy is in the middle and is just shooting one direction and eventually gets pulled into allies. The ship moves and thats how the gats move.
Another option since Medium Flak is useless and doesn't seem to ever be returned to it's former glory, introduce quad barrel light flak. Double reload time, but double ammo. Thing would be a ship killer combined with even a small gat. Maybe slow down fire rate to compensate.
Or, combine the quad light flak idea into a revolver barrel cannon. Has a revolver drum clip but one long barrel. Makes the flak shells go further but they still do light flak dmg. So you don't have guys crying about it being like the merc.
-
That sounds interesting, I like it, but then comes the next question, how much damage does it do?
That should be determined after rigorous play testing, not just made up by some guy on the forum. I am thinking 2x merc per shot. With a reload slightly longer than a merc, maybe remove the shatter. Also the length of the delay between triggering and shooting is subject to change.
Actually what if the weapon were to charge. The longer the gunner held down the trigger the more damage the gun would do until it overcharges and forces a reload without discharge. It would defiantly make the gunner game interesting.
-
That sounds interesting, I like it, but then comes the next question, how much damage does it do?
That should be determined after rigorous play testing, not just made up by some guy on the forum. I am thinking 2x merc per shot. With a reload slightly longer than a merc, maybe remove the shatter. Also the length of the delay between triggering and shooting is subject to change.
Actually what if the weapon were to charge. The longer the gunner held down the trigger the more damage the gun would do until it overcharges and forces a reload without discharge. It would defiantly make the gunner game interesting.
But with no indication of a charge level, just the shuddering and pulsing of the weapon becoming more and more violent until either the shot is released or the weapon initiates emergency cooldown (longer than reload. Used as a deterrent to fully-charging every shot).
-
Basically need a Pyramidion gun. Fire mini Pyras at ships that ram into them and knock them off course.
Salutations for almost knocking me off my chair, this is hilarious.
-
If the best argument against doing something simple and logical is "Because, um...balance" Then there are larger problems in play.
Sorry, but if you're unable to accept game balance as something that needs to happen in said games because it's not how you would do thing in real life, then you should probably re-examine your point of view on games in general.
Please go back and read my post cause you missed the point. The point isn't what would I do in real life. It's what would I do in the guns of Icarus world, operating under the constraints of that world's accepted behaviors. For all the discussion I've seen here, I haven't seen a single reason given why an even marginally clever crew wouldn't try to make something like a double gat happen IN THIS GAME WORLD.
Aside from that, I think the arguments that it would be OP are overstated. Sure, it would be dangerous, but would a double gat on the front of a goldfish be any more dangerous than two front gats on a pyramidon? Which is worse on a spire, a gat, heavy flak combo, or a double gat, light flak combo? Personally, I'd still have to give it to a well timed gat heavy flak combo. More time to destroy the armor, but less chance of fixing it before the armor comes back up. Yes, a double gat and heavy flak combo on a galleon would be terrifying, but anyone who stands at medium to close range on a galleon's broadside has a death wish already. Of course, the only way to know would be to try he guns and see how they work in the game. Personally, I'd love he chance to play wit hem and see.
-
Of course, the only way to know would be to try he guns and see how they work in the game. Personally, I'd love he chance to play wit hem and see.
That is awkm's (Eric's) job. Well that and listening to us complain to him about how he didn't do it right. I am sure the devs have tried many of the permutations you have discussed. If they haven't, they probably will do so after they read your post. Just don't expect them to release a new build to the public if the ideas don't match their vision for the game.
-
well to go back to why not the gold fish with the forward guns (its a labored point but i think its important to the overall direction of weapon and ship design) , well because the ones used in skirmish mode are the common ships, in universe that is probably the first goldfish design, and they are probably old ships that have been traded, sold, or captured through the years. Updated and improved designs are are very expensive and the groups wealthy enough to have them would keep them close and only allow their very best crews to use them because to lose one would be devastating. Why doesnt every country in the world (irl) use the best weapons systems? cost. it all comes down to cost and politics. if you are going to argue for in universe logic, do not be naive.
In skirmish mode you are not the best of the best, despite what it may seem like, you are the average. if we were portraying the best of the best we would have the most advanced designs to work with.
the same principle holds true for weapon design, a new large piercing weapon would not be the hot new gun, it would have been the hot new design 10 years ago. these are the guns that have diffused throughout the world, they get the job done, they work, but they are not the best.
-
It's not that it's not a cool idea, it's just that the way piercing weapons currently work would force the weapon to not have piercing rounds for balancing reasons. An automatic heavy weapon's a cool idea, though.
-
Rear-mounted heavy flamer, suddenly you have an extra rocket engine...
Side-mounted heavy flamer, suddenly your boat can strafe...
Actually... that would be pretty damn cool. A really powerful flamer that not only incenderates everything in it's path, but also pushes you in the opposite direction of your aim.
Make a ship with built in turbo engines?