Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Swallox on June 05, 2013, 06:49:59 am
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The Cogs is a ten week competitive event of tournaments and matchups to determine the best captains and crews in the GoIO community. While skill and co-ordination are vital for a team’s continued survival, the true test of a team’s skill is in their ability to thrive and flourish under pressure. Pushed to their absolute limits, a team needs far more than a couple of good engineers and a half decent pilot to survive against some of the most painful enemies in the brutal one-chance matchups that The Cogs is renowned for. Welcome to Season 2. Are you prepared?
Seeds
Based on the results of Season 1, positions #1 - #2c from the Finale are seeded automatically into slots #1, #2a, #2b and #2c. Teams that made it into the Finale quarter finals are seeded into Week 0’s first round robin event.
Week 0
Week 0 consists of two round robin events to seed the five slots (#3a - #3e) on the Upcomer’s Cog.
The first of these round robins will feature the teams from the Week 9 Quarter Finals placed against each other for slots #3a, #3c and #3b. In the event that one or more of the quarter-finalists are unwilling to participate, an additional team will be added to the Newcomer’s robin.
The second half will be first come first serve newcomer round robin for the remaining slots on the third cog. In the event of a full roster, there will be one more newcomer team than slots. For instance, if there are two slots available for newcomer teams, three newcomer teams will be permitted to participate in Week 0.
Week 1-7
These weeks feature standard Cog matches, as described in “The Cogs Standings” below. At the end of Week 7, the team in the Champion Cog are crowned the Weekly Champions of The Cogs.
Week 8
Week 8 is a open qualifier tournament, in which any team in any standing may compete for a position in the week 9 finale. The overall format of this tournament may change dramatically depending on the number of participating teams, though. More details on each season’s Week 8 is posted on the forums in advance. Either three or six teams will advance from Week 8.
Finale (Week 9)
Week 9 is the Finale, the final week of a season. Set up to include either seven or ten teams, depending on Week 8’s format, teams face off in a single-elimination grand tournament, including a match for third place.
Seeds #1 - #4 will be claimed by the teams in the Champion and Challenger Cogs
Seeds #5 - #7 (Or - #10) will be claimed by those that qualified for inclusion in the Finale during Week 8.
The victor of this tournament are granted the Tournament Champion title. In the event of a team claiming both the Weekly and Tournament Champion titles, they gain the Grand Champion title.
The Cogs Standings (Week #1 - #7)
Currently split into three distinct 'tiers', plus two newcomer spots that aren't officially part of The Cogs, the Standings look a little confusing on first glance... But let's break them down.
Tier One is the simplest. The Champion's Cog; This is spot #1. This tier does not rotate and the Champion team play every week to maintain their position and assert their dominance against everyone and everything the community can throw at them.
Tier Two contains the Challenger teams. These are the top tier teams that are contenders for the Champion's Cog. Positions #2a, #2b and #2c are present in this Cog and rotate on a weekly basis to determine which of the Challenger teams play to advance or defend their spot on a given week.
At the end of the week a team's Spot is rotated along. (#2a -> #2b, #2b -> #2c)
The team currently at #2c will be moved to #2a
Tier Three is the Upcomer's cog, and features five slots ranging from #3a-#3e. This is the lowest official spot in The Cogs, but is certainly not to be sniffed at. Once again, this Cog rotates weekly to determine which two teams play that week.
At the end of the week a team's Spot is rotated along. (#3a -> #3b, #3b -> #3c, #3c -> #3d, #3d -> #3e)
The team currently at #3e will be moved to #3a
The Newcomer's slot is split into two positions. #4a and #4b. Both of these teams should be capable of playing on the week, and the position is granted based on a first-come, first-serve signup list in The Cogs forum.
Advancement and Dropping
Each standard week, four matches will be played. They are as follows:
Match 1: Newcomer's Proving Ground
Spot #4a vs Spot #4b. Winner plays in “Breaking Point Ejection”
In the event that #4a can't play, #4b advances
In the event that #4b can't play, #4a advances
Match 2: Breaking Point Ejection: Spot #3e vs The victor of “Newcomer’s Proving Ground”. Winner advances. Loser is ejected from The Cogs
In the event that #3e can't play, the victor of “Newcomer’s Proving Ground” advances. In this instance, #3e is ejected from The Cogs
In the event that The victor of “Newcomer’s Proving Ground” can't play, The loser of “Newcomer’s Proving Ground” will play #3e instead. The victor of “Newcomer’s Proving Ground is ejected from The Cogs.
Match 3: Upcomer's Advancement: Spot #2c vs Spot #3a. Winner advances.
In the event that #2c can't play, #3a and #3b will play for spot #2c instead. In this instance, #2c will be moved to spot #3a
In the event that #3a can't play, #2c and #3b will play for spot #2c instead. In this instance, the loser will be placed in spot #3b
Match 4: Champion vs Challenger: Spot #1 vs Spot #2a. Winner advances.
In the event that #1 can't play, #2a and #2b will play for spot #1 instead. In this instance, #1 will be moved to spot #2b.
In the event that #2a can't play, #1 and #2b will play for spot #1 instead. In this instance, #2a will be moved to spot #2b
Greasing The Cogs
In the event that multiple matches are dropped or there are deemed to be too many fractured or impotent teams within The Cogs, the season will be cut short and the Week 9 finale will be brought forward. Teams will be seeded with the positions gained within The Cogs. The tournament results will kickstart a fresh season.
Maps
Maps are randomly selected from the current pool of 2v2 maps. In the event of additional 2v2 maps being added, they will be assessed and if no significant competitive issues are discovered, they'll be added to the map pool.
A map may not be randomly selected more than once per week except in special circumstances. This means that Match 1 could be on any of the five current maps. Match 2 could be on any of the remaining four maps, Match 3 could be on any of the three not yet selected and Match 4 could be either of the two remaining maps. The maps are selected using a RNG and revealed three days before they are due to be played.
Match Specifics
Currently we do not enforce any ship or weapon-related mandates. A team is permitted to switch their builds and roles right up until the last second of the lobby's countdown timer. DO THIS AT YOUR OWN PERIL. If a ship is incorrectly fitted due to last second switching, the match WILL NOT be restarted. You have been warned.
There are currently no plans to include a time limit. This relies on the players and teams not exploiting this to ridiculous proportions. If it is deemed appropriate at a later stage, reasonable countermeasures to team-dickery will be put into place. Likewise, repeated use of areas, tricks or glitches deemed unfair by Muse consensus will have consequences. Play it straight.
Each match is played to five kills, standard deathmatch rules, on an American server. To prevent ghosting and ensure that at least one slot is free for team switching, the spectator slots are limited to unaffiliated Cogs casters and match referees only. This includes crew CAs and mods as well as non-refereeing Muse devs. You know who you are.
Crew and Substitutes
Failure to provide Swallow with a team roster a day before the match via Steam or Skype will lead to an automatic forfeit for that match.
The format is as follows:
Ship 1
Role - Nationality - Name
Role - Nationality - Name
Role - Nationality - Name
Role - Nationality - Name
Ship 2
Role - Nationality - Name
Role - Nationality - Name
Role - Nationality - Name
Role - Nationality - Name
Substitutes
A team must make its roster with a maximum of 4 substitutes a day before the match. A player is only allowed to play on one team per week. If the player is on the roster as a substitute, but does not play, then the player can be a possible substitute for another match. However, if the player does play in a match, then they cannot substitute in another regardless of whether they are on the substitute roster or not.
(Crew and Substitutes edited by -Muse- Cullen)
Note by Ataris: slightly edited by author's request
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Swallow,
sure you've noticed, the rules are a bit messy about the positions designation (2a/2b in the Week 0 and 2a-3a later). Just checking
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Blarg. And I can't edit them because I am not a mod...
Sunderland! Help!
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There, is that better?
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I have no idea, Ataris offered to fix some stuff and... Stuff got fixed? Maybe? Probably?
Aah, starting Season 2 off in style. Did I mention that we're also looking for a proof-reader? Apparently it's going to be an important role!
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I will volunteer if you would like :P
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Guys, the forum elves are back. Cobblin' those shoes.
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I'm quite interested in possibly joining in this ordeal, but I am slightly confused on how the 'cog' system works. Is there any type of diagram or image that better explains this?
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I'm quite interested in possibly joining in this ordeal, but I am slightly confused on how the 'cog' system works. Is there any type of diagram or image that better explains this?
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,788.0.html
There you go.
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I'm quite interested in possibly joining in this ordeal, but I am slightly confused on how the 'cog' system works. Is there any type of diagram or image that better explains this?
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,788.0.html
There you go.
You. You I need to speak to too.
Tipping will be official this time around.
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Looking forward to this! But not the 4am Sunday mornings.
Jesus
Christ
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You. You I need to speak to too.
Tipping will be official this time around.
You know where to find me.
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didnt i signed up for this yet?
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didnt i signed up for this yet?
I'll get a newcomer signups thread up on the 10th
I think I should change that name... Some of the teams signing up aren't exactly going to be new... Ah well, maybe later.
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just call it the proving grounds cog or something?
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Tipping will be official this time around.
don't tell me here comes the business o_O
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In other news betting on Guns of Icarus COGS matches has swept the nation.
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I think Muse should give a sick prize to the winner of the tipping competition; something better than the actual competition winners would receive. Definitely would make it more interesting.
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I think Muse should give a sick prize to the winner of the tipping competition; something better than the actual competition winners would receive. Definitely would make it more interesting.
physical prize could be interesting.
If it's only 1 guy who wins then it wouldnt be that much of a deal than if lets say muse would give physical prizes to 2v2 tournaments.
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Now that we have Paritian Rumble, I suppose that's being added to the player pool (please remove Labyrinth, I cannot begin to express my sheer distaste for that map and the terrible matches it gives)?
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Now that we have Paritian Rumble, I suppose that's being added to the player pool (please remove Labyrinth, I cannot begin to express my sheer distaste for that map and the terrible matches it gives)?
Most of the matches we've seen on Labyrinth have been pretty awesome from what I've seen. Teams struggling to hold onto the centre point against an onslaught. Since teams don't have to worry about individual deaths, they can get much more aggressive and that in turn leads to a lot more action. It changes the focus of the map and requires teams to bring something new to the table (Double Sniping isn't a possibility, and GatFlak/GatMortar are risky strats at best, especially if the other team has a fast ship), so it's staying in the rotation. Paritian Rumble is also being added as another map, meaning we have six to play with now.
Season 2's going to be fun.
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Just want to say well done to NAF as well as my teammates in Merry Men in that seeding match, it was my first competitive match and I had a lot of fun. Looking forward to seeing more of you all in the Cogs. ;)
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So I think it is absolute horseshit that the Falconeers who 5-0'd Polaris and beat PaFa two games in a row are cut out until week 3. We proved ourselves, we fought hard and if some IRL shit hadn't happened we would have won the SKY tournament. So why is it we are treated as scrubbie nubs under the COGS system and just pushed back into a que to fight teams we have already beaten?
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Because you didn't sign up earlier.
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Sorry my aunt was in the hospital, and my cousin broke her arm. Real life can kinda kick you in the nuts once in a while. I just really think this restrictive system is once again going to chase off new competitive teams. and reduce the total number to 8 like it did last time just to make one person feel better.
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I totally understand, Ofi. I know that you guys would deserve to be placed highly. However, Swallow can't just say "Ok, we're putting The Falconeers up here". You have to fight your way up. That's the point of the Cogs.
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I'm not even mad about it for myself i know i can win. My team worked god damned hard to place and they are treated like street urchins? come on that is unfair to them.
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The Icarus Sky Tournament is unaffiliated with The Cogs. While The Falconeers absolutely proved themselves, their placement can't be determined by a completely separate tournament. It's no different from any sport or eSport. And I wouldn't worry about it too much, if I were you. If you guys play like you did in Icarus Sky, you'll go from the Newcomer's slot to the Challenger's Cog in no time.
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Thats the real thing that pisses me off sundie. I wont even get a chance to place my team before im gone even though we slaughtered people. I mean real life junk punched me. My clan shouldn't be penalized because of it. Any tournament organizer who does that is full of crap.
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I don't quite understand, in what way were you penalized? Swallow made it clear how the system works: you sign up, you get put on the waiting list. What happened in your case is highly unfortunate (and as I said previously, I feel bad for you), but Swallow can't make any exceptions. He can't go ahead and tell the teams that've already signed up "Ok, we're moving you down because these guys didn't have the opportunity to sign up." Regardless of what you're going through, that simply wouldn't be fair to those teams.
Just sign up as soon as you can, and it won't be that long a wait. Hell, my team signed up immediately, but the seeds are so messed up that we'll have to wait for like a month after week 0. Teams that sign up now could potentially get a shot at the challenger's Cog before us.
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HAHA COGS seeding, ain't that a joke? I'm sorry dude but we worked our asses off to get ready. Only to be told to fuck off. I really have no respect for this system. I mean 6 teams duke it out thats great.... and then the next week its 5 of the same teams with one new guy..... and then week 3 its 5 of the same teams against another new guy..... it was a unique idea when the population of the game was under 200 people. Not no more. It needs to graduate.
before you ask. Yeah Imadbro. We should be fighting today.
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HAHA COGS seeding, ain't that a joke? I'm sorry dude but we worked our asses off to get ready. Only to be told to fuck off. I really have no respect for this system. I mean 6 teams duke it out thats great.... and then the next week its 5 of the same teams with one new guy..... and then week 3 its 5 of the same teams against another new guy..... it was a unique idea when the population of the game was under 200 people. Not no more. It needs to graduate.
before you ask. Yeah Imadbro. We should be fighting today.
Five of the same teams with two new guys every week. Season 2 changed that bit.
I can understand that you're irritated... But... Well, to put it bluntly: It's not my fault you broke your arm.
There are other events if your team can't participate on a regular basis. The Cogs is a test of tenacity and adaptability under extreme circumstances... If your team can't play, it can't play. Likewise, if you signed up late, you have to accept that you're going to have to play after the teams that signed up before you. That's how a first-come, first-serve system works.
Now you haven't actually signed up yet... But the next spot available is actually during Week 1. I've got no idea where you got Week 3 from, unless that's when you actually planned to sign up... In which case, well... There's nothing I can do about that either.
I appreciate that your team performed well during Sky... But The Cogs doesn't seem from the Sky, just like Sky doesn't seem from Cogs. They're completely separate.
If you have any further comments or complaints, feel free to add me on steam or skype... But posting things ike "Only to be told to fuck off" when I don't think I've ever spoken to you before really just comes off as an effort to start a flamewar. I don't appreciate that sort of behaviour in the Cogs forums, we keep things civil here.
You can find the signup thread here:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1435.0.html
Feel free to sign up when your team is ready to play. Like I said: Season 2's newcomer matches have changed to support the influx of newer teams, all looking to prove themselves. Now the two newcomer teams face off against each other before going up against the Upcomer team in the ejection match. Still, I've got no doubt that Falconeers can take both matches effortlessly if push comes to shove, right?
A team can make it from the bottom of the cogs, right to the top in only three weeks. As a team, you only have to win four matches to dethrone Paddling. It's really that simple. With a little teamwork, analysis and talent, any team could do it.
Good luck.
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All right. Now, something that I asked on another thread but may have been overshadowed by the other comments:
Why does the #1 qualifier for newcomers get 3b? 3c gets to play sooner, so presumably you'd want give that spot to the top-placed team in the round robin. Otherwise it's advantageous to place second in week 0.
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Yeah Swallow answer the real issues here and stop using your baseless AUTHORITAH to pick on poor Ofiach!!!
XD
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All right. Now, something that I asked on another thread but may have been overshadowed by the other comments:
Why does the #1 qualifier for newcomers get 3b? 3c gets to play sooner, so presumably you'd want give that spot to the top-placed team in the round robin. Otherwise it's advantageous to place second in week 0.
Ah, right. Well, during Week 1, #3a will play to advance to challenger, whereas #3b will fight to avoid descending. #3c will wait until next week. So #3b actually plays before #3c... Except...
God damn it. I fucked up. Reverse the order from #3b-#3e. It's a little late to fix the spot numbers this week, but I'll get it done soon.
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Everyone was told week zero would be a round robin for new teams. Instead its 3 teams only. maybe this is baseless but I feel like i was lied to.
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Everyone was told week zero would be a round robin for new teams. Instead its 3 teams only. maybe this is baseless but I feel like i was lied to.
...It's been that way from the start
Sunderland, can you fix this bit from the main post?
"The first of these round robins will feature the teams from the Week 9 Quarter Finals placed against each other for slots #3a, #3e and #3d. In the event that one or more of the quarter-finalists are unwilling to participate, an additional team will be added to the Newcomer’s robin."
It should be
The first of these round robins will feature the teams from the Week 9 Quarter Finals placed against each other for slots #3a, #3c and #3b. In the event that one or more of the quarter-finalists are unwilling to participate, an additional team will be added to the Newcomer’s robin.
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All right, main post is fixed.
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Ofiach, if you already stated you have no respect for this system, why are you whining in this thread? There are plenty of other tournaments out there for you.
Awesome, the Falconeers finished strongly in the Sky Tournament. Remind me what that has to do with Cogs again?
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Because we were told this was an open round robin format to decide teams for the COGS challenger bracket. It obviously is not that.
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Not sure where you got that, but the Cogs system has remained the same for a while now.
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I'm sorry Ofi, but the rules clearly state:
The second half will be first come first serve newcomer round robin for the remaining slots on the third cog. In the event of a full roster, there will be one more newcomer team than slots. For instance, if there are two slots available for newcomer teams, three newcomer teams will be permitted to participate in Week 0.
That section hasn't been updated since the thread was posted.
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Well i was obviously fed alot of lines of bull in steam and skype discussions.
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From the rules thread
"Week 0
Week 0 consists of two round robin events to seed the five slots (#3a - #3e) on the Upcomer’s Cog.
The first of these round robins will feature the teams from the Week 9 Quarter Finals placed against each other for slots #3a, #3c and #3b. In the event that one or more of the quarter-finalists are unwilling to participate, an additional team will be added to the Newcomer’s robin.
The second half will be first come first serve newcomer round robin for the remaining slots on the third cog. In the event of a full roster, there will be one more newcomer team than slots. For instance, if there are two slots available for newcomer teams, three newcomer teams will be permitted to participate in Week 0."
From the brackets thread
"Week 0 features two distinct phases to populate the third Cog on the board, the Upcomer's Cog. Six teams, three Season 1 veterans and three newcomer teams, face off within their respective groups for control over one of the five spots on the Upcomer's Cog. So who's playing? Let's take a look."
There is no mention of the Newcomer arrangements in the Announcement thread.
Again: I don't know where you're getting your information, but the rules thread (The first season 2 thread to go up) clearly states that at most, six newcomer teams would get to participate in Week 0... And even then, only if all three Season 1 seeded teams decided to drop.
I understand your frustration, but the newcomer's side of week 0 has been clear from the start.
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I wouldn't have said this before, but it's getting ridiculous.
Something needs to be done about sniping matches. I have no problem with sniping itself, but I have a huge problem with matches being 3-2 after an hour. Every other team waiting to play has to sit through that, and it's the middle of the night for some of those people. It's not good to watch, it's not good for the teams waiting, and even the teams playing get bored (but still continue doing it for some inexplicable reason).
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Simple may be the way to go. After a set time limit, winner is whoever has scored better. If scores are even, winner is whoever has most combined hull health total. If that is also even, who knows... maybe just coin flip to determine winner.
Should mean more incentive to actually attack in order to avoid a less than satisfactory end...
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Or you know snipe better.
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I'll give it to BFS for having the endurance to better the Gents in the last long-winded match. It's their choice to go when they wish and it payed off.
Now about the streamers losing focus and talking about anime during firefights............
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On the one hand, that does drive me crazy. However, how much can we really expect when three matches take what? 2 and half hours of ineffective sniping and hiding? Of course meta discussion is always appreciated, however, even if it was good meta discussion, how long can that really last?
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After about 20 minutes of sniping, Qwerty and Swallow aren't even talking about meta anymore. After 30 minutes of sniping, they're not even talking about GoIO. After 50+ minutes of sniping... Well, I'm not sure, because I've already muted the stream.
That's the thing here. It isn't in anybody's interest to have matches this long. It makes the viewers bored, it makes the players waiting have to wait longer, it makes the stream lose viewers, and it doesn't really benefit the players either. There needs to be a time limit.
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After about 20 minutes of sniping, Qwerty and Swallow aren't even talking about meta anymore. After 30 minutes of sniping, they're not even talking about GoIO. After 50+ minutes of sniping... Well, I'm not sure, because I've already muted the stream.
That's the thing here. It isn't in anybody's interest to have matches this long. It makes the viewers bored, it makes the players waiting have to wait longer, it makes the stream lose viewers, and it doesn't really benefit the players either. There needs to be a time limit.
The problem then is finding a balance between the game deteriorating in to a long-ass snipe fest or an out and out 5 minute brawl. Hey, don't get me wrong, brawl matches are awesome fun to play in and I'm sure are probably the most entertaining for stream viewers too but if you impose too short a time limit then brawling is going to fast become the go-to play style which pretty much eliminates variation.
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Exactly, and that's why you need to keep the time limit high enough that the teams play normally, but low enough that playing the sniping game means risking running out of time.
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And what happens when time runs out? Team with most kills wins? Wouldn't that potentially ruin any chance of comebacks?
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It's not like the teams don't know the score. If they want to comeback, then they have to do it in the allotted time. You know, like in Football or Basketball.
And some may say, "well, sniping teams won't do as well because it's harder for them to come back and the other team can just hide."
My answer: if you can't handle that, don't snipe.
Hour long matches are unwatchable. Half hour for a 2 team DM is more than enough time. Otherwise it becomes a game of who has the least amount of patience, and the answer is "the audience."
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Hour long matches are unwatchable. Half hour for a 2 team DM is more than enough time. Otherwise it becomes a game of who has the least amount of patience, and the answer is "the audience."
Very well said. Salute.
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I am a bit worried about teams with an advantage deciding to run and hide.
If a team of double Pyras were up against say a Junker Galleon on a map like Paritian Rumble, they could go up by one kill and easily run away for the rest of the match which would be way more boring than a sniping match.
Also one of the first really long matches in the Cogs, the gents paddling match, was actually one of the most fun to play in as it transitioned from a really hard fought sniping fight into a really hard fought brawl. That match took around 35 minutes.
That being said an hour seems like a bit too long for a match when you have people waiting to play. Even if a time limit isn't put on, I think the casters should just leave the match after 30 minutes while the ref remains and then start the next match. This way competitive teams could shoot at each other for no effect as long as they want and no one would have to watch them do it allowing everyone to win.
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Actually, that's a pretty good idea, Smollett. That'd leave everybody happy without having a chance of screwing it up for the sniping teams. I'd only feel bad for the ref.
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Gents match didn't have to go that long. I kept moving along the scrap looking for openings to exploit. Problem was the Gents were not giving any. Vid doesn't show it but a couple times I had gotten alongside the ship and was looking to see about slipping under it but Gent positioning changed. Its the risk of running against a galleon + pyra and the Gents are just too dangerous to take risks with.
Having the option of the casters going on to other matches works for me. Golf does this. It doesn't follow the same person the entire game, it would be too boring. It cuts in back and forth for highlight shots.
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I think Smollett's nailed it actually, good suggestion bud.
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Even if a time limit isn't put on, I think the casters should just leave the match after 30 minutes while the ref remains and then start the next match. This way competitive teams could shoot at each other for no effect as long as they want and no one would have to watch them do it allowing everyone to win.
This. This fixes all things.
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I'll have a chat with Swallow about this, the idea to leave the game after 30 minutes is a good one and I think we should implement it.
In other news, I found the day 9 daily video I spoke of. The first 35 seconds are my view on sniping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E6KygstDIo
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I wonder if there would be a way to implement a running scoreboard in the background. So say something that runs along the top of the stream that the ref updates with point totals. So people watching the stream won't completely miss out on the other match.
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Well sure if the ref kept me updated on the score I could simply prep a small overlay
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I wonder if there would be a way to implement a running scoreboard in the background. So say something that runs along the top of the stream that the ref updates with point totals. So people watching the stream won't completely miss out on the other match.
Im sure the streamer could have an overlay with the other match in a corner or something, and the ref in the other game can provide info (plus record it and upload the video later or something)
edit: damn ninjed by Qwerty
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You could also switch long games to the CeSports stream with other casters, like you did for Icarus Sky. That way people still wanting to see the match would have the option to.
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Transitions like that are not easy to do at all. It would result in maybe 30 seconds of lost footage/time and is inconvenient for the viewers.
Veyka: MWMWMWMAHAHAHahahahahahahahaahahahh!!!!!
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So maybe you'd give a warning in advance that the stream is getting switched, and you could perform it smoothly without losing any footage.
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30 seconds lost over the entire back end of a match someone wants to watch surely isn't the end of the world. Not saying I personally would want to see it, but someone will say something about I'm sure.
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Even if a time limit isn't put on, I think the casters should just leave the match after 30 minutes while the ref remains and then start the next match. This way competitive teams could shoot at each other for no effect as long as they want and no one would have to watch them do it allowing everyone to win.
This. This fixes all things.
...Why didn't I think of this?
We'll do this.
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Swallow, can we get a clarification of the seeding from the Cogs. There were some changes as the lowest seed was in reality the second best seed as it gets to play and advance faster. (example being that 3 a is best in terms of ability to advance, 3 b was worst and 3 e was second best). If we are going with that concept, shouldn't Polaris and PaFa switch their 2 c and 2 b since PaFa scored better than Polaris in season 1 finale but in the current set up they are in the worse position to advance.
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Better yet, I think that positions 2-4 from the finale should get to pick their seed in the challenger's Cog, with the second-placed team getting first dibs and so on. That team may or may not actually want to play the champions in week 1.
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Swallow, can we get a clarification of the seeding from the Cogs. There were some changes as the lowest seed was in reality the second best seed as it gets to play and advance faster. (example being that 3 a is best in terms of ability to advance, 3 b was worst and 3 e was second best). If we are going with that concept, shouldn't Polaris and PaFa switch their 2 c and 2 b since PaFa scored better than Polaris in season 1 finale but in the current set up they are in the worse position to advance.
Yeah, going to quote myself from the week 0 thread:
Yeah, imo everything would be much less confusing if 3e was actually 3b, etc. 3b should correspond to the second highest seed, but it's actually the lowest. Everything would continue functioning as it already is, just reverse the lettering. My two cents.
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Swallow, can we get a clarification of the seeding from the Cogs. There were some changes as the lowest seed was in reality the second best seed as it gets to play and advance faster. (example being that 3 a is best in terms of ability to advance, 3 b was worst and 3 e was second best). If we are going with that concept, shouldn't Polaris and PaFa switch their 2 c and 2 b since PaFa scored better than Polaris in season 1 finale but in the current set up they are in the worse position to advance.
Actually, you got that one wrong. PaFa was supposed to choose between 2b and 2c due to their seed, but I haven't been able to catch them online so they can make the choice. Seems easier just to give PaFa 2c.
And I realise that it's a tricky concept to wrap your head around (Trust me, took me a while to figure out too), but once I get the preview for Week 1 up, things should be back to normal.
As a sidenote: The slots were originally numbered 1-10... I was asked to change them to their current format, so I did. If anyone has a better idea for a way to represent the cogs without uploading a jpg, be sure to let me know.
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Why is it that pafa gets to choose their seed but Brood doesn't?
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Yeah, how does that make sense? As I said, it'd only be fair to give the second-placed teams first choice of seed, followed by the third-placed team, and then the fourth-placed one would get the remaining spot.
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I would like to echo the question of why PaFa got to choose their seed. We had the whole battle for the 3st so it seems like their seeding is clearly locked higher than Polaris.
Swallow, I understand the core concept of cogs and of course once we get into the actual weeks everything will be much simpler. the issue is that the seeding order from the two round robins changed a few times between what was posted in the op, didn't match some messages, requests for revisions, and comments made in the stream. what has been posted in the forums doesn't make everything overly clear but by going back on your later messages the order I am assuming is this for the 3 slot
3a BFS
3b ZMM
3c Gent
3d RM
3e Raft
Is this correct?
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Why is it that pafa gets to choose their seed but Brood doesn't?
I'm not quite sure... At this point it's gotten a little confused either way.
I would like to echo the question of why PaFa got to choose their seed. We had the whole battle for the 3st so it seems like their seeding is clearly locked higher than Polaris.
Swallow, I understand the core concept of cogs and of course once we get into the actual weeks everything will be much simpler. the issue is that the seeding order from the two round robins changed a few times between what was posted in the op, didn't match some messages, requests for revisions, and comments made in the stream. what has been posted in the forums doesn't make everything overly clear but by going back on your later messages the order I am assuming is this for the 3 slot
3a BFS
3b ZMM
3c Gent
3d RM
3e Raft
Is this correct?
Yes.
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Just realized that with the MM's "seed" in the cogs, it actually would have been more advantageous for us to be one of the Newcomers. Kinda weird.
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Just realized that with the MM's "seed" in the cogs, it actually would have been more advantageous for us to be one of the Newcomers. Kinda weird.
Yeah, doesn't make any sense to me. I understand having the worst seed out of the other quarterfinalists from season 1, but surely we should still be ahead of the newcomers? Meh, what's done is done.
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But think of the prestige of your current spot!
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Just realized that with the MM's "seed" in the cogs, it actually would have been more advantageous for us to be one of the Newcomers. Kinda weird.
Yeah, doesn't make any sense to me. I understand having the worst seed out of the other quarterfinalists from season 1, but surely we should still be ahead of the newcomers? Meh, what's done is done.
I think the idea was that in our group of three, we were all guaranteed a spot in the Cogs, win or lose. If ZFG had turned up, one of the newcomers would've been ejected. So I guess it's a trade of position for safety?
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Probably worth mentioning that tarcide will be gone in 1.3 (along with potential minecide), and kills we be credited to the other team in the event of such suicide happening (but only if the other team previously dealt damage). No more reason to worry about that now.
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Yeah, all the babies cried and they caved like I thought would happen. Yet after it was used once, no one ever used it so in the end...it was funny to watch everyone panic over something so insignificant. Lot of ruffled feathers over nothin.
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Oh you hush.
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Don't be so sure about lack of consequences, Gilder, as far as COG's matches are the top matches of the game they are very an exemplar to follow. That hull hp uplift wasn't so significant for the squid but it could make real difference on a stronger ship.
However, i'm glad that you brought this to a question even in the middle of a stream because you have shown the issue officially and that was also intriguing for the viewers.
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Yeah, all the babies cried and they caved like I thought would happen. Yet after it was used once, no one ever used it so in the end...it was funny to watch everyone panic over something so insignificant. Lot of ruffled feathers over nothin.
...I wouldn't have put it quite like this, but I agree with the latter portion of Gilder's post... It really was a panic over nothing in hindsight.
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At the end of the day I think the change has a bit more to do with mines than taracide; as self inflicted mine deaths are quite a common occurrence in the beta test right now.
Otherwise you could just run up and lochnagar facemine suicide everyone non stop til you won the match.
Entertaining I'm sure, but probably not balanced.
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The Brood was running short on players today and was going to use some of the Raft crew, until they were informed that any player playing on team x cannot play on team y the following week. May you point out where this rule is stated, since I certainly don't see it anywhere?
Substitutes and Backups are permitted, but they are not permitted to play for more than one team a week.
This is to prevent floating players that switch teams and play every week, although it's not perfect. Players caught skirting this and playing for multiple other teams during their team's off-weeks to boost their positions will be dealt with. Let teams rise and fall on their own merits, not on the merits of their substitutes.
All it says is that people can only play on one team per week.
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The Brood was running short on players today and was going to use some of the Raft crew, until they were informed that any player playing on team x cannot play on team y the following week. May you point out where this rule is stated, since I certainly don't see it anywhere?
Substitutes and Backups are permitted, but they are not permitted to play for more than one team a week.
This is to prevent floating players that switch teams and play every week, although it's not perfect. Players caught skirting this and playing for multiple other teams during their team's off-weeks to boost their positions will be dealt with. Let teams rise and fall on their own merits, not on the merits of their substitutes.
All it says is that people can only play on one team per week.
Anybody? Maybe? This really killed the Brood's match yesterday.
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I've already talked about this with both Jace and Squash... Bouncing members between teams to maximise a team's chances is unacceptable either way, but I admit that I have also screwed up. The quoted rule is last season's setup... Which relied a lot on players not abusing the trust given to them. For this season, a new rule was planned and written up, but I failed to put it in this rules thread... Like everything else I do on this forum, I missed the details.
I'll update it later this week... But as a sidenote: The Ducks were scheduled to play three matches with three teams yesterday... Which means that you should have been prepared to field three teams. So I'm afraid I have to call bullshit on Brood's lack of members, as I only told Squash and Smollett of the changes a couple of hours before the matches.
If the Ducks are unable to field three unique crews, they should not have three unique teams. It's really that simple.
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The problem is the amount of warning we had. We were ready, but only found out half an hour before the match that you had invented a new rule. Gathering reserves is one thing, but gathering them in less than 30 minutes is completely different.
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The problem is the amount of warning we had. We were ready, but only found out half an hour before the match that you had invented a new rule. Gathering reserves is one thing, but gathering them in less than 30 minutes is completely different.
Just out of curiosity, did you ask if you could use a Raft member, or did you just assume you could?
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"Bouncing members between teams to maximise a team's chances is unacceptable either way..."
Your implicit accusation makes no sense within the context of this particular match because it was two Duck teams facing each other. Despite the fact that the Brood and Paddling were fighting each other, they were both still Duck teams and therefore both interested were making sure the fight was as fair as possible. Squash was working just as hard to Jace to find suitable replacements for the Brood after a large number of no-shows and technical issues. So I suppose yes, in a sense we were trying to maximize the Brood's chances of not having a completely unbalanced game, as the Brood-Paddling match regrettably turned out to be.
"...you should have been prepared to field three teams..."
The Ducks were prepared to field three teams, but as stated above a mix of no-shows and technical difficulties made it difficult to sub in experienced players who were familiar with the playstyles of the Brood captains. I suppose that the Brood simply could have forfeited, but that wouldn't have been very fun, would it? I for one would err on the side of giving substitutes a little more freedom - the Season 1 rule seems pefectly fine to me (one match per player per week). The easier it is to sub in players, the less likely the chances of forfeited or unbalanced games.
From my own point of view as a captain in the Raft, I do not view substitutions as a positive thing, nor do I think that by subbing in "better" players my chances for victory are increased - quite the opposite, in fact. I have a particular way of running my ship, and my regular crew (with whom I train regularly) gives me the best chance of executing my particular strategies. Maybe under certain circumstances certain other players are better than my regular crew members in certain tasks, but I would view any substitution on my ship as generally undesirable, even if I were to sub in an "elite" player from another team. I don't think substitutions should be viewed so negatively - rather, they can help ensure even, interesting games, when regular players have to quite understandably miss Cogs matches for real life commitments.
I would like to hear from some other members of the community their opinions on the Season 1 (one match per player per week) vs. the Season 2 (sub players from other teams must wait for the team for which they subbed to play without them for one week before they can rejoin their regular team) substitution rules.
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Just out of curiosity, did you ask if you could use a Raft member, or did you just assume you could?
Great question. Here are the general order of events. The only context you need is all three Duck teams were scheduled to play, Haven vs. Raft and Brood vs Paddling. All three teams have preparing for this week for months, very exciting.
1 Hour to play time: Find out Haven drops out, Raft can't play. Also find out Brood needs three reserves.
59 minutes to play time: The decision to use Raft as reserves is made, that way at least 3 Raft members can play instead of their Saturday being wasted. But is it legal?
58 minutes to play time: I check the forums and find the Cogs rules thread, look up the substitution rules. Here is the rule:
Substitutes and Backups are permitted, but they are not permitted to play for more than one team a week.
30 minutes to play time: Tell Swallow what we're going to do, I posed it as a question but I was really just doing it as a courtesy. Swallow says no. Below is the conversation:
Saturday, July 06, 2013
Squash: are we able to use a raft captain to fill in for a brood captain?
Swallow: Yes, but they won't be able to play as Raft next week, so I'd advise against it.
Squash: but isn't there a rule that anyone can sub as long as they only play ONE match a week?
Swallow: That's not the rule.
Swallow: The rule is that anyone can sub for a team... but they won't be able to play for another team until they team they subbed for has played at least one match without them.
Squash: Substitutes and Backups are permitted, but they are not permitted to play for more than one team a week. This is to prevent floating players that switch teams and play every week, although it's not perfect. Players caught skirting this and playing for multiple other teams during their team's off-weeks to boost their positions will be dealt with. Let teams rise and fall on their own merits, not on the merits of their substitutes.
Swallow: Huh... Could have sworn the new ruleset included that...
Swallow: Ah well, The new rules are still in effect.
Squash: what does that mean?
Swallow: That means that the sub rules were changed for season 2...
Squash: sorry i don't know which rule is old and which is new
Squash: when you say new rules
Squash: i don't know which those are
Squash: i'm not trying to be difficult
Squash: just please say definitively one way or the other
Swallow: I already have. If a raft player plays this week, they'll have to wait until Brood plays another match without them before they can play again.
And that's pretty much it. I think the Brood did amazingly given the time they had to react to the new rule. I'm extremely grateful to the three reserves who played with less than half an hour's warning, and I'm deeply apologetic to all the Raft members who thought they'd be playing this week but couldn't.
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The Crews and Substitutes section of the rules have been edited. Please note them for the future.
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Clans that have multiple teams will be required to have their players and substitutes locked onto a team for the season once they play for that team.
You have to be joking.
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That's ridiculous.
This is a rule that only effects us and is crazy.
What exactly is the problem with subs playing for different teams. No one wants to use a sub ever, it always puts you at a disadvantage. How could a substitute help anyone other than allowing them to actually be able to play a week where one of their members can't make it.
Why do you guys want to make it harder to get a team together than it already is? Let us just play the games, who cares who's playing on each team. Why does it matter?
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What's going to happen to all the rugged men subbing for BFS. Can they not play in this week's match now? Will they be forced to join BFS forever? What if people want to switch clans?
What is stopping players from changing their names or playing under different accounts?
We frequently had ducks playing for smaller teams in the Cogs when they were just starting out so that they were able make their matches. There were also a pool of unaffiliated players who could fill rosters for different teams every week. These were the things that made the Cogs possible, that gave competitive and interesting matches every week, and helped keep the community close knit.
These new rules are Draconian, unwarranted and unenforceable. They serve no ascertainable purpose and I for one would like them to be reverted.
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I am just going to go ahead and assume that season now means something much shorter. Locking anything for two months seems ridiculous.
If this had been implement last season I would probably no longer be playing this game. Early on when I first started playing I was used a last second replacement for the Paddling. Then I had a chance to play for the early Brood, before my quick foray into my own team the Dover before I went back to the Brood full time. I've gotten to help out PaFa in there as well. Some of the best online gaming in my life, wouldn't have happened because suddenly I would be tied to the Paddling.
Now look, if a team is intentionally floating members around to beat the system, I can understand actions being taken. However, subbing is 94% detrimental. If I had to sub Sunderland onto my ship, someone who I consider to be the best engineer in the game, I would still consider myself less than optimal because he is not my crew, he would be my sub.
I can understand the day before roster, however a season long lock is incredibly stiffing to people trying to join the system.
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Apologies- I forgot to include this important piece of information in the previous post about the notice. The changes to the rules will not be effective for 7 days- this is to avoid making such an abrupt change. Tomorrow's match 7/19/2013 will not have the new rules.
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Remember how the Brood v Paddling Cogs Week 1 match went? We'll get more of that if such heavy restrictions are put on our substitutes. It's great to have as many substitutes as possible available, but it's detrimental when you actually have to use them, since it means that you're missing a regular crew member. It's as if the ATP put restrictions on how many bandages players could use during the year with the excuse that bandages can be used for performance-enhancing purposes, and that the players are winning on the merits of their bandages, not their skill. After all, what's the purpose of having individual players if they all use the same type of bandage?
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No team can make 100% attendance every game. Perhaps it would be better to say that the maximum substitutions per week is 2 or something like that? Right now this rule feels arbitrary and really hurts the competitive scene. If I have to sub for a week, I can't play ever again? Say Paddling has a vacancy one week. The next week, they don't. Oh well. I don't play... right? But then raft needs a player or they will need to forfit, and at the same time I could be helping them, they are screwed, and I don't get to play.
That's just wrong. A better proposal: Max 2 substitutions per week.
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Why not just put some restrictions on people on posted teams. Currently the sub system means that each of the duck teams has to have a handful of their own substitutes. Why not just let us share these substitutes, with possible restrictions on how quickly they can bounce? That way we can let newer ducks get a taste for competitive play but not prevent them from opportunities.
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So no discussion on the changes?
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Everyone on the team must belong to the clan(s) that the team is hailing from.
I didn't even notice this bit. Apart from the fact that you'll have a pretty hard time enforcing this, it's a silly rule. Some clans only have nine people in them, and will have 2 or 3 absences on occasion. So what happens in that case? Do you want them to pack up and leave?
These substitute rules will not help anybody. They'll only hurt clans both large and small, they'll result in cancelled matches, teams dropping out because of one single weekend where a couple of people couldn't make it, and they'll prevent people coming into the Cogs as subs for the first time from later getting onto teams until the following season (Like Sammy B.T. Imagine last season without the Quackbar). I've watched every single streamed Cogs match up to this point, and I have not seen a single example of teams using substitutes to maximize their chances of victory. Substitutes are damage limitation. If this was a two-day tournament, the rules would be perfectly justified. But you cannot treat the Cogs like a two-day tournament. A lot can happen in two months.
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The problem is that the Icarus competitive community is (yet again) being treated like it is an extraordinarily large one. It is not. A community the size of dota or league of legends would be able to sustain this substitute rule. Icarus can not.
There are clans that can barely break into the teens in terms of member size, and sometimes other clans may loan members who don't have matches that week out to other new clans that are trying to break into the cogs in order to give them a fair chance at getting going. Subbing isn't an automatic win situation. It introduces a new player into a new crew that they usually haven't spent much time with gelling together as a team. It's a last ditch situation for teams that have to resort to subs. It really isn't the benefit that the rules seem to imply that it is.
There was much precedent of this in the first season, and without that happening, some clans may have ended up as some non-starters because they might not have been able to even play. That would have hurt the cogs as less teams would play, and rules like this will hurt the cogs in the future. Smaller clans are going to have a lot of trouble with this.
Can we stop treating this community like it has the capacity or even need to follow such prohibitive rules?
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The more complex ya make it, the less people want to play it. Honestly I'd rather have another Sky Tournament, cept minus the loadout locking. That was actually fun. Like flying best of 3 series vs best of 1. I'm sure others share that feeling as well. Putting everything riding on 1 match and then shit hits the fan just really craps on morale.
Yeah the community is not large enough or really healthy enough yet to go overboard. The Spire tourney is a great example right now of something going overboard. We do have folks flying in it but I don't have any desire to, plus the time is bad for me.
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I dont see why such substitute rules needs to be applied unto an event that focuses on scrimmages without end prizes.
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Just another reason why this overly complicated, prohibitive system called the Cogs needs to be scrapped in favor of something more understandable to the player and anyone who wants to follow the competitive scene. Again, another rule that is far more detrimental to newer teams.
I, personally, was looking forward to getting into the Cogs. We played one capture point match, and now have to wait for another shot. Yes, we should have practiced more. Yes, we could have been better prepared. Now there is this sub locking thing. It's all very discouraging for me, and I'm sure, other newer players in less established Clans.
As it stands, there is no avenue for consistent competitive play. No way to even try to get better at competitive play (practice is good and all, but nothing can accurately simulate "game time" conditions).
I hate to be the person who complains and does little to actually help, but I don't believe I have the standing, experience, or knowledge to come up with or even try and run a different or better system.
At this point, I really don't even care about prizes, or championships, or rankings, or any of that. What I would like to see is just some competitive matches that I can play in. I don't even care if they are broadcasted or not.
Hell, maybe I will come up with something. Something simple. Something enjoyable. Something everyone can participate in without all these needless restrictions.
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Theoretically there is still an open spot to sign up for this Saturday, I don't know if there is a cutoff.
Basically the sub thing hurts very small clans, that barely have 8 as they now functionally need 11 or 12 or it hurts the big ones like the Ducks who now instead of using about 28 people (24 in 3 teams and a pool of 4 subs) to now needing 36 so that each team has subs.
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Honestly, Sammy, the Falconeers need to get their shtuff together to be a bit more competitive, but I fear some of the recent experiences (not all of it being the Cogs fault) have lessened our enthusiasm. I will see about our interest, availability, and whether we can still get in.
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Failure to provide Swallow with a team roster a day before the match via Steam or Skype will lead to an automatic forfeit for that match. This rule is still in place. Do not forget it.
The substitution rule is being looked in to at the moment and may be modified- the goal of changing the rule is to lower its abuse that we've seen in the past; its not simply trying to be there to be annoying . For the sake of this next coming match, substitutes will not be locked onto a team while we figure out a reworded solution that mitigates your worries. Its difficult to figure out a way to decrease sub abuse and increase the availability for substitutions, so have patience.
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substitutes will not be locked onto a team while we figure out a reworded solution that mitigates your worries
Thank you very much. But I'm a little bugged by this...
changing the rule is to lower its abuse that we've seen in the past
I have not seen anything that could possibly qualify as "abuse" of substitute rules at any point in the Cogs.
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I did not mean to infer that the rules were being made with the intent of being annoying or prohibitive. I am sure it is just an unforeseen byproduct of trying to solve another problem. However, the result is practically the same.
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<snip>
The substitution rule is being looked in to at the moment and may be modified- the goal of changing the rule is to lower its abuse that we've seen in the past;<snip>
What abuse? I have not been around as long as some, but I have been playing in the cogs since week 1 or 2 or the first season, and I can't think of one single time anyone used a sub for any reason other than not having someone else.
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The substitution rule has been changed. I'll be keeping track of what goes on, so hopefully this'll work out well.
A team must make its roster with a maximum of 4 substitutes a day before the match. A player is only allowed to play on one team per week. If the player is on the roster as a substitute, but does not play, then the player can be a possible substitute for another match. However, if the player does play in a match, then they cannot substitute in another regardless of whether they are on the substitute roster or not.
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Thank you so, so much for the new rule, Cullen!
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Will the Cog's matches count for points in the new competitive system by default? Don't think it's been specified yet.
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However, if the player does play in a match, then they cannot substitute in another regardless of whether they are on the substitute roster or not.
Wait do you mean that if the player subs for a match they can't play for another team all weak but can still play matches with the team they subbed for or that if they sub in a match that's the only match they can play all week. The sentence structure is ambiguous.
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It's just saying that in any given week, if a player plays on team x, then they can't sub on to team y regardless of whether they're on team y's sub roster or not.
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Will the Cog's matches count for points in the new competitive system by default? Don't think it's been specified yet.
Yes. Any organized play can count for points.
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Will the Cog's matches count for points in the new competitive system by default? Don't think it's been specified yet.
Yes. Any organized play can count for points.
In the case of cogs, is this automatic or must both teams agree for it to count for points?
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it probably counts as a tournament thing rather than a scrim. The overall structure contains more than 2 teams, after all.
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I'd really recommend taking a look at the Flotsam Dynasty Campaign to make things run smoother. A system similar to the Duck Buddies could be incorporated to make sure both teams are in the match lobby once the game before theirs starts. It does wonders for the transitions, and I think we can all agree that transitions between matches contribute to Cogs dragging out.
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Can we get some guidelines in place for late starts? Not to be nasty about it. We've seen it before where time zones get messed up and teams don't show. But when you've got over 30 ppl waiting for over 30 mins and then move on only to change minds and have them wait longer to go back and do a match that was already canceled. I'm fine if they get moved to the next week for another shot but it isn't fair to the teams who are ready and waiting. Plus I'm sure some players have other things to do or get done when the event ends.
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Agreed with Gilder. What happened on Saturday was really, really silly and pointless.