Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: evodoc on June 02, 2013, 08:48:23 am
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Hello everyone!
My opinion is that the most annoying thing about the game is the human factor (yeah, welcome to multiplayer I guess...): the captains leaving it's crew. While these cases might be not always ragequits, but mostly it seems so given the timing of it. Nevertheless, this usually starts a chain reaction ending up with an empty, surrendered ship. This sucks, especially if you are serving on the same team's other ship with a fair crew and as an opponent it takes aways the sweet taste of victory, leaving a "bitter" feeling instead. I think something has to be done.
But the question is: what can be done about it?
I would divide this matter into two things:
What should happen to these captains?
I guess some punishments could be given to those captains after leaving their crew for X times. Penalties such as: deranking and/or temporarily locking out of the pilot/captain role. Deranking could be countered as getting thumbs up Y times in the same role, while the temporary lock out could be countered as getting Y thumbs up as serving as a crew member using other roles.
I already see the responses before I post this, that why should people be punished for quitting, maybe his/her crew sucked, maybe he/she had to do something IRL, it's just a game, his/her internet went down and such...
But what I think is:
1. He/She who takes the role of a captain knows (or should know) that this role is about responsibilty, and he/she also knows (or should know) in advance that his/her crew MIGHT suck, and he/she also knows (or should know) that he/she leaving the game means that the crew is doomed almost for sure. If you don't agree with these you should not be a captain.
2. About the argument that it's just a game: yes, it is a game, a teamplay oriented game which can be completely ruined with captains leaving.
3. The punishment is about notorious quitters, not occasional "justifiable" cases.
4. The punishments are not too harsh and neither final but symbolic and can be easily countered.
Now the other thing which might be more important:
What should happen to those who are left?
I think there should be a function that a member of the abandoned crew is able to completely take over the pilot AND captain roles. We know that other crew members can also fly the ship, but without the right gear and the role's functions, it's like Icarus' flying with his melting wings right before his death.
I know that my suggestions would be not complete solutions but might help somewhat, and it's also open for discussion for other opinions and suggestions.
So what do YOU think?
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I don't see Muse ever implementing any sort of punishing feature. It's not their style. They're very community spirited and side way toward positive reinforcement.
I'm not saying that captain quitters don't suck. They do, for both sides. I'm just saying there are nicer ways of doing this.
You'll eventually start to recognise and friend some trustworthy people. This is what the commendation system could be good for if you could see people you've already commended outside of the victory splash. (Honestly as it is the only purpose it has is for new achievements but it's being developed further if I remember correctly.)
Also, you can change your class mid game. You just have to abandon, switch, and manually join back into the lobby.
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Yes, it can be a problem. Generally higher-level captains are less likely to do it (they'd find it hard to get their levels if they didn't finish matches), but that isn't a guarantee. There are good low-level captains and bad high-level ones.
When I've played a couple of matches or so with a good captain, I add them as friend. Then I can see easily who I can trust to not ragequit, without having to remember a lot of names. It also means finding games is easier, as even if their crew is full, they are likely to be playing with other captains they know, who would also hopefully be less likely to quit.
Maybe instead of "punishments", it could simply show, in the player-info-popup, something like "Left matches x times during last two weeks", which would let the prospective crew member decide for themselves if they want to risk it. Leaving temporarily and then rejoining before the match ends shouldn't count for that. Perhaps if it goes above a certain level, they should be looked into by the devs/CAs...
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Also, you can change your class mid game. You just have to abandon, switch, and manually join back into the lobby.
Well I never thought about that. It's sounds too fiddly that's why I was suggesting an easier method. And also, I don't see this method being used. People leaving the match are leaving it for good.
You'll eventually start to recognise and friend some trustworthy people. This is what the commendation system could be good for if you could see people you've already commended outside of the victory splash. (Honestly as it is the only purpose it has is for new achievements but it's being developed further if I remember correctly.)
Yeah, this might be a good idea to change it this way. Right now everyone is just spamming the thumbs up at the end of the match.
Maybe instead of "punishments", it could simply show, in the player-info-popup, something like "Left matches x times during last two weeks", which would let the prospective crew member decide for themselves if they want to risk it. Leaving temporarily and then rejoining before the match ends shouldn't count for that. Perhaps if it goes above a certain level, they should be looked into by the devs/CAs...
Well, this might help somewhat too.
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It's actually easy to rejoin a match, there's a button shown on the title screen (not the match list) for a time after leaving a match in progress.
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It's actually easy to rejoin a match, there's a button shown on the title screen (not the match list) for a time after leaving a match in progress.
Yeah, but that does not allow changing roles as far as I know.
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Yeah changing roles is a pain in the butt and there's no way to know how to do it unless you're either told by someone who knows or you do it accidentally/by experimenting. It's pretty much just a workaround I threw out there if you ever wanted to grab that vacant pilot spot in the middle of a match.
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I absolutely hate opponents leaving. It is against the nature of this game. There is no way to improve without getting experience against captains and crews who are much better than you.
How about, instead of a contrived punishment, there was just a waiting period after quitting? I don't think it would be out of character for Muse to put a LARGE cooldown on joining any OTHER match after you quit a match in progress. If you had to wait a full five or so minutes after leaving an active game before you could find a new match, you would be slightly less likely to quit a match just because you "don't like it". Heck, if it's so bad a match that you feel like quitting, the game will probably be over in less than five minutes.
This, in theory, wouldn't punish players who actually had to leave or players who got booted due to connection issues, etc. while making it highly less attractive an option to immature players. In fact, this would even provide some feedback to new players that the behavior is heavily frowned upon.
I actually think there should be some slight incentive to stay in ONE room for multiple matches. Captains deciding they don't want to fly against you, after the match is over, is a slight problem when you get past level ~6. Killing lobbies becomes a serious problem if you happen to find a crew that works well with you. A 5-0 victory far more often results in a 3/4 empty lobby than an increase in effort and strategy from the enemy team. This would also make the game flow much quicker and organically. Maybe a new misc. achievement? Persistence? "play xx matches without switching lobby"?
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I love the persistence achievement idea. It has been so weird as I got plenty of 5-0s as a low level pilot and no one leaving, but now as a level 8 pilot, suddenly you win one game and suddenly everyone just leaves!
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I'm still only a level 4 captain, soon to be 5 and I got to say that I notice that even from now, many enemy pilots will leave mid game if they are doing bad without even trying to turn the game around and then the lobby will empty almost completely.
There should realy be something to prevent this from happening as it is realy frustrating for both the winning team and even more so for the lonely captain left behind by their teammate (or more depending on how many ships are in the game). Pilots, please be mindful of your teammate as well which you are leaving behind.
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Not that I'm defending this behavior, but I had posted here a thread about matchmaking. Wouldn't having more evenly balanced matches to begin with reduce the number of match dropping? Especially if win/losses were taken into account, and the results of a match a player dropped from still affected their stats? Some people will ragequit because... well... they just suck soo hard. But at least if the match was more fun and balanced to begin with, to where people tend to feel they have a chance, it should reduce it.
Oh, and +1 to getting replacement captains/pilots. Maybe a vote system? Especially in a legitimate disconnect, a team should still have a captain/pilot.
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I think if your captain leaves there should be a big sign at the middle of the screen "YOUR SHIP HAS NO CAPTAIN! PRESS I TO TAKE CONTROL!" Pressing I would open a crew slot, stick you in captain slot as pilot.
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One of the big problems is new captains taking an experimental build out, discovering it sucks and abandoning it (with their crew) to work on the next iteration of their personal meta game. Even if one of their crew mans up or another pilot joins the game, they are on a ship with a lousy setup. I have said many unkind words about people who abandon me on a harpoon junker.
A possible solution for this is to allow mid game ship and class changes. This will make is less likely for people trying out ship loadouts to abandon a match if their loadout is crap. Also any joining captain or upgraded crew can be flying a proper ship after their next death. I would also like this feature for games where I take a support build out only to discover my ally can't be supported.
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Hamster,
I've mused about some of those ideas before, changing class and ship loadout in game; but that sort of drastic change, while doing really well to solve some of the problems discussed just couldn't easily be balanced. That and I think it would also detract a lot from the experience to have to fight a different Junker every time you killed it.
It would be interesting if the captain left you could take over his spot and skill sets and if he came back you reverted.
That being said people just need to grow up and stop ragequitting if they're losing. 2v2's only go up to 5 and are over quickly if you're getting stomped. If you really can't tolerate the match any longer due to how bad you're getting beat down, confer with your teammate and surrender to your superior enemy.
Poor sportsmenship is bad enough, but ruining the experience of 15 other people because your ego can't handle the sensation of being defeated for another 4 minutes is absurd.
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I don' think it would detract from the experience at all if an enemy has the option to respawn as a different ship every time it dies. In fact it would lead to less one sided matches since the loosing team would not be forced to stick with the same ship configuration for the duration of the map.
Many of the decisions that win or loose GOI games are made in the lobby. For experienced players this is not a problem since we know what the most of right decisions are. New players on the other hand don't have the space to experiment and learn since their poor lobby decisions carry for the rest of the match.
I can see how it would be easier to learn the meta by trying out a ship, learning it sucks in the first engagement, quitting, and trying a new ship in a new lobby. It is an A-hole thing to do to your crew and the server. However game mechanic wise it is the fastest way to test many builds under live fire conditions. Providing an alternate mechanic for testing multiple builds in a single game hopefully would make learning easier.
As for my poor sportsman ship and ego, well you got me there. If I can't be winning with the best crew and ship there isn't really much point in playing. I wouldn't be caught dead jumping to the loosing team to flying with level 1's and 2's because I like teaching.
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A time-based penalty for abandoning matches would work out just fine. You abandon a match, you don't play another for several minutes.
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A problem is crappy matches that last way too long.
In which case a 5 min cooldown could be peanuts to the actual time cost of the game.
I've had some really rough capture points. Mostly because some folks don't understand Capture Point means "Capture the Point", and felt they should ignore my polite (and then not so polite) instruction via captains chat.
I am resistant to the idea of 'hot swapping' either with classes or ships. I like consistency, tactics, and planning. It takes away from learning new strategies if you can just decide "Oh, that Squid is annoying my galleon and we can't hit it! I'mma respawn as a Squid! LULZ."
I like the system as it is now. If this is still a big problem once players figure out how the game works I think a rejoin cool-down or going the Call of Duty (GASP!) route of having achievements/kills/whathaveyou not stick until the match is complete might be okay.
Maybe.(/noncommitment)
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I think if your captain leaves there should be a big sign at the middle of the screen "YOUR SHIP HAS NO CAPTAIN! PRESS I TO TAKE CONTROL!" Pressing I would open a crew slot, stick you in captain slot as pilot.
I like this idea. After pressing I, the player would enter the captain's slot. The next time that the ship is destroyed, it will respawn as the captain's ship, and the player will become a pilot.
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Obviously the 5 min cool down I suggested wouldn't outright SOLVE these problems, it would just be a slight deterrent and a good source of feedback to brand-new players. It would only have significant impact on two specific play "styles": players who ROUTINELY start a match and quit if they don't get the first kill, and players who legitimately "give up" but quit in lieu of surrendering in order to find a new match immediately.
I am quite fond of the idea to not having achievements complete until the match is over. The type of people that ragequit are quite often the same type of people who care WAY TOO MUCH about achievements. Since the first several levels are fairly easy to net, I could see this having some effect on new players. By the time they are on achievements that take much longer, I would hope they have matured past ragequitting. I, honestly, wasn't aware that this was a core COD system.
I think that hot swapping would be a bad idea, it would definitely throw the balance of the game off. If there is not an opportunity for a crew/opponent to check out the loadout of a ship before it is launched, a large element of the current strategy is outright removed. If a captain could repeatedly change his ship or loadout, it would basically turn into a guessing game of rock, paper, scissors with both the enemy team and captain's own crew. I think the little "workaround" for switching classes, as well as the fact that it is widely unknown, is about as far into changing anything other than equipment mid game as we should get.
And I would imagine the opposite on 'crappy' CP games. If I have to call the enemy to the CPs using regional, if it's gonna be that kind of game, I usually find it to be over in one swift uninterrupted cap. Perhaps a little over 5 minutes, but the only 1+ hour CP game I played was very well balanced, with one single point separating the teams when the dust finally settled. If the enemy is providing significant combat that prevents me from capping all points quickly, even if they aren't exactly getting any CPs themselves, I still consider that to be a good match.
Finally, I do agree that the "replacement" captain should be on a volunteer basis, not necessarily just whoever is 'highest' on the crew list. This would at least let the co-captains talk to whoever is TRYING to fly the ship, rather than the usual random gunner. I always feel bad for that gunner...
On a tangent, if a pilot captain leaves a human crew of two engineers and one gunner, which role does the AI take; 2nd gunner or 3rd engineer?
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Just wanted to apologize to Hamster for my incredibly poor paragraph structuring.
My opinion regarding hot swapping ships was in response to your suggestion.
My opinion regarding rage quitters was aimed at said rage quitters (which as far as I know is not you)
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It is ok, it was late (in my time zone) and I was grouchier than normal.
I still hold that the length of time newbies have to live with their bad decisions is contributing to this problem. I don't think I would use hot swapping mid game, because I am pretty happy with my current ship builds. However I would have loved to have it back when I was learning the ropes of this game.
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I like the 5 minute lock-out idea. Yes, it may not last as long as a normal match, but it doesn't need too, it still brings up the question of "Would I still want to play in this match if it was the only match I could play right now?" It wouldn't be all that much of an inconvenience to the average player (I agree harsh punishments would be out of muse's character), but it does add a considerable amount of time to the testing phases of those who are just joining and leaving to mess around with different builds or the like. As far as this deterrent goes, if it were implemented, I would like to see it affect any member of the crew. Yes, the captain does have the most responsibility, but that's not to say the rest of the crew has none.
I love the "press I to Captain" idea too. As the captain slot only has a 1/3 chance of landing on the person who is going to take the helm, and neither of the people can effectively bring out the ships full potential anyway, it would just make the whole transition process a lot smoother. As far as changing load-out mid match goes, it would make the transitional period a lot longer, and leave your teammate out to fight 1v2 for more than they probably feel comfortable with. Maybe have it so that the ship stays the same, but the guns automatically change to the new captain's build? As little downtime as possible is best, as that transitional period between when the captain leaves and when one of the other crew decides to take the helm is one of the most vulnerable times in the game. Pausing the game would pretty much equate to sending everyone back to the lobby to ready up a second time, which is to say, not an valid option in my book.
Final notes: Taking over the ship after the captain leaves is some of the most fun I've had piloting, as it's purely about working with what you've got. I still sucks, but it can be fun.
Also, to answer it dragonmere, it gives you a second gunner, which means you're at the accepted 2 engineers and 1 gunner if your gunner takes the helm, but unfortunately left with 1 engineer and 2 gunners if an engineer takes the helm.
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A second AI gunner. Thats what I was afraid of. I understand that the AI tries to balance the crew positions, but in this case I think it would be best if an abandoning pilot/captain could always be replaced with a third engineer, or the first gunner. I don't think the game itself, under any circumstances, should throw a second gunner onto a ship, when a second gunner is pretty much universally accepted as a 'bad idea'. Having another AI engineer would allow any member of the crew to take the helm without forcing the current gunner to the job in order to avoid a severe disadvantage. Combined with the suggestion of volunteering for the captain spot, this would leave an abandoned ship much better off. However, this is skirting the true issue, which is simply, CAPTAINS SHOULDN'T LEAVE.
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I won't go too much in depth here, but here is my take on this:
As a captain who doesn't leave matches mid-game, I'd much rather see incentives for players to stay for a match vs punishments for those who don't. As suggested, you don't get achievement points till after the match, or something to that effect. Even if that doesn't deter one guy, it will deter a whole boat from simply giving up.
The ability to make someone the new captain (thus taking the captain slot) is also appealing. I don't see it having role change though, nor will I ever support the changing of ships or loadouts of ships mid-match.
And I say players, not just captains, because you can't single out one class like that, regardless of its importance.
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I left a match today because I was having a lot of lag, and because I'm still too new to be jumping into online matches yet. I'll get more practice in and return when I have a better handle of things.
I would completely understand if I was penalized, or if players who did what I did didn't get experience because I left. I think that's fair enough.
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On the lag issue, try turning your lighting settings down (Options -> Video -> Lighting), it helps whenever flame effects are in play.
I have a pretty good PC, but the lighting effects absolutely ruin my frame rate. Not sure if that's an idiosyncrasy of Unity or what.
I turned that to the lowest setting and haven't had frame rate lag since. Lag spikes still happen occasionally, and you might want to try and play on a server near your location (America, Europe, Asia, Oceana) to minimize that.
I know Muse is working hard to fix those issues. Just some friendly suggestions!
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Thanks! It did help for the most part, but there's still a little shakiness-- mostly just moving around and the camera. I don't know if it's something I need to tweak, or just being new and not used to the controls.
I do have a 5+ year-old MacBook, so lag is something I'm used to by now, though.
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Not saying we should have ship loadouts switch mid-match because of a yellow-bellied Captain, but here's a little something that came over the Captain's Chat mid-game one day.
"Jesus Christ! Somebody REALLY likes flaks."
Poor guy dropped in on a Goldfish with a Heavy Flak up front and two light ones on either side.
Thankfully, I had a Whirlwind, so were were able to coordinate a few kills outta our predicament.
Fellow Captain, I don't remember who you were, but I salute you for sticking with me 'till the bitter end of that match.
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How about adding a server browser to the game's main screen that would list the live games with missing pilots/captains?
Something like that:
(http://i.imgur.com/DFkEAPn.jpg)
Bad pilots are still way better than nothing, because they have a chance becoming better. :)
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Whenever I'm trying to find a match, I always look through the running matches and make sure they all have 4/4 or 6/6.
If they don't, I drop in and take over.
I normally say "oh, Captain abandoned you guys, huh?" Then I thank the engineer on the helm, and grab it myself.
Normally, I just got a loyal crew in exchange for half a bad game on an awful ship.
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So I'm not sure when it started really becoming an issue, but ragequitting captains has become an epidemic in GOI. Every time a captain ragequits; he ruins the experience for everyone on his crew left without a captain, his teammate who's left without his partner and the enemy who has lost a worthy opponent.
Here is my proposed solution. Track the amount of matches that a pilot leaves from without reconnecting and make the number public. Crew joining a ship will be able to check how many matches the captain has dc'd from and the number of matches they've played, If the number is a significant % of matches played, crew will know the cap is likely to dc and they won't crew with them. This sort of public shaming will provide a strong disincentive to abandon crews.
People who disconnect due to internet problems will reconnect before the match ends and won't be unduly punished and offenders will likely stop as well knowing that their actions have consequences that will follow them through the game.
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Yeah, I made a very similar topic a few weeks ago where there've been discussed a few ideas:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1316.0.html
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I was in the match where we were talking about it.
I know it's bad when a captain leaves a match while ingame.
But people play to have fun, and it's no fun when you get stomped again and again by a team you KNOW you cannot beat and you KNOW you can't get anything or learn anything by staying there.
In that match there was a full DUCK ship with a level 12 captain and a level 8 captain with level 4-5 crew.
On the other side there were a level 1-3 captains with AI and some low level crew.
One of the captains, while in the match, just wandered around aimlessy without having an idea what to do. He died four times to double gatflak coordinated fire.
Our captain then decided to leave. What could have he done? Stay and get killed? For what? I suspect he wasnt having any fun, and so he left.
Having a captain leave a match while in game is annoying. But it is more rude to start a match with full stacked teams vs new players, and i think the responsibility here would be more on the veterans to even things out.
As veterans, and especially as coordinated teams, it should be OUR responsibility to even the teams and allow for everyone to have a good experience.
You can prevent people leaving by having fair games, rather than having another counter on captains names.
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I was in the match where we were talking about it.
I know it's bad when a captain leaves a match while ingame.
But people play to have fun, and it's no fun when you get stomped again and again by a team you KNOW you cannot beat and you KNOW you can't get anything or learn anything by staying there.
In that match there was a full DUCK ship with a level 12 captain and a level 8 captain with level 4-5 crew.
On the other side there were a level 1-3 captains with AI and some low level crew.
One of the captains, while in the match, just wandered around aimlessy without having an idea what to do. He died four times to double gatflak coordinated fire.
Our captain then decided to leave. What could have he done? Stay and get killed? For what? I suspect he wasnt having any fun, and so he left.
Having a captain leave a match while in game is annoying. But it is more rude to start a match with full stacked teams vs new players, and i think the responsibility here would be more on the veterans to even things out.
As veterans, and especially as coordinated teams, it should be OUR responsibility to even the teams and allow for everyone to have a good experience.
You can prevent people leaving by having fair games, rather than having another counter on captains names.
Preach!
but also a D/C% wouldnt really solve the problem would it? people who leave the game mid match, enough to warrant such a system, are often not sticking with the game anyway. I rarely ever run into those people again after they leave a game.
Edit: also this is somthing we could actually measure. if one were to add people who d/c'd mid game and never rejoined to their friends list and tracked their days since last login.
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I left one cause it was a 3v3 crazy king battle and the crews on my allies junkers couldn't hit anything. We had a huge tactical advantage with their two junkers, but they kept dying over and over and I just got tired of it. My crew was too. The junker captains were talking to me that they couldn't get their crews to fire properly. Guessing all new players. Finally just had it and left.
Underperforming crews I would say are one of the biggest reasons folks quit, at least for experienced players. For new players, I'd say its being thrashed and stomped. Course when you got them taking spires or taking builds that will never work, they just have to learn.
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Yeah, I proposed basically the same solution in the other thread (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1316.msg21943.html#msg21943). I think that would identify repeat offenders easily enough, without actually affecting their ability to play.
But yes. What the high-level captains can do to lessen the chance of the other team ragequitting is by avoiding stacking. When one captain on one team is higher level than all the captains on the other team added together, it's not likely to be a very enjoyable match for either side. Rather than having both high-levels on one team, why not just have one on each team. That way you both get a challenge, both lower-level captains might learn a thing or two, and much less chance of people ragequitting.
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But people play to have fun, and it's no fun when you get stomped again and again by a team you KNOW you cannot beat and you KNOW you can't get anything or learn anything by staying there.
In that match there was a full DUCK ship with a level 12 captain and a level 8 captain with level 4-5 crew.
On the other side there were a level 1-3 captains with AI and some low level crew.
One of the captains, while in the match, just wandered around aimlessy without having an idea what to do. He died four times to double gatflak coordinated fire.
Our captain then decided to leave. What could have he done? Stay and get killed? For what? I suspect he wasnt having any fun, and so he left.
Having a captain leave a match while in game is annoying. But it is more rude to start a match with full stacked teams vs new players, and i think the responsibility here would be more on the veterans to even things out.
As veterans, and especially as coordinated teams, it should be OUR responsibility to even the teams and allow for everyone to have a good experience.
You can prevent people leaving by having fair games, rather than having another counter on captains names.
Well first of all; if they felt they were mismatched, they could have chosen not to play the game and joined a different match or requested a balancing of the teams rather than completely abandoning their crews and teammate and leaving them in a worse situation than they were to start with. This however completely misses the point of this post because people aren't just ragequitting because of "stacked teams" (whatever that means). Captains will often leave as soon as they die and it seems they might not win, rather than trying to fight back and save victory from the jaws of defeat.
The truth of the matter is that as captain you take on a certain responsibility to your team and abandoning that because you're not having fun ruins the experience of everyone else and is about as mature as a child who takes his ball home at the playground since he's not winning.
but also a D/C% wouldnt really solve the problem would it? people who leave the game mid match, enough to warrant such a system, are often not sticking with the game anyway. I rarely ever run into those people again after they leave a game.
Edit: also this is somthing we could actually measure. if one were to add people who d/c'd mid game and never rejoined to their friends list and tracked their days since last login.
It's happening so much now that it's not only players doing it who don't ever play again. I see it a ton from level 4+ captains. Knowing that you might not get quality crew because of your propensity to abandon them at the first sign of trouble leads to a good incentive to stick in the fight. If things really don't seem at all winable you're always left the option to leave with dignity by surrendering with your teammate and going back to the lobby.
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Most rage quits could be dealt with by ensuring there are level 1-3 games running as simple as that, ensuring you don't get crews and or captains who are still learning the basics mixing it up with crews and or captains who have some idea of what they're doing. Or a high level shark in a pool of level 1 minnows.
I know I'm not alone in doing this, I mostly captain but I will roles if I think there will be balance issues when I join a match.
That said I personally feel the tutorials have made things slightly worse as new players seem more reticent take advice than they were prior to., though it may be just coincidence and the kind of player we're getting now is the product of hand holding games where they'd win no matter how badly they played.
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In that match there was a level 12 captain and a level 8 captain with level 4-5 crew.
On the other side there were a level 1-3 captains with AI and some low level crew.
I remember joining a 2v2 match a whiled back with 2 full crews of the same clan withs one captain a CA. I joined to help out the weaker side which unsurprisingly lost, but after the match one of the CA starting giving advice about what the other team should be doing to get better. I have to say I got slightly irked - and pointed out that the CA perhaps should be crewing with the weaker side and advising them during the game if they really wanted to help.
There then ensued a series if cat calls from the rest of the crew members to the effect I should have known better than to join low level crews and was a sore loser - which irked me more because losing wasn't the reason I was strongly stating my opinion.
The CA then changed sides but asked me if I objected to him playing with his friends or that his friends wanted to play together. I understand what he was asking and I've been in that situation myself, but sometimes you just have to do stuff to make sure the game is fun for everyone.
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Not that I disagree with your sentiment but that's really off topic.
People don't rage quit because of stacked teams that they chose to play against and then quit in the middle of.
People are rage quitting all over the place, against higher ranked teams, lower ranked teams, same ranked teams. It's becoming really common, and when one person gets left over and over by their captains and teammates they stop caring about doing it to other people. It's getting to the point where there is a rage quit in a huge % of my matches and it's been getting more common every day.
It's eroding our community and no amount of finger pointing is going to fix the problem. You can blame global warming if you want but we really need to put a system in place to discourage this.
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@Captain Smollett
With the greatest of respect:
First we clearly have some common ground in the fact we care about the community, but with the greatest respect I'm not finger pointing nor am I clan bashing - I edited the quote in question for a specific reason, because it's not a just a clan issue, just as I didn't name names in the anecdote, neither players nor clan involved.
The anecdote, however, is relevant as it underlines certain kind of problem where a successful side will continue to be so when clearly it isn't doing anything but stat padding, it also underlines the fact that tunnel vision can affect players and I include myself in that list.
The phrase "choose to join" is use quite often as a justification for situations like the one I described, but unless there is a choice of matches it doesn't really hold up, sometimes shuffling sides is the thing you should be doing. And sometimes making sure there are low level matches running is another.
I don't rage quit even if I have a run of bad matches, yet I crew with a lot of people and a lot of new players are among that number consequently I have often found myself on a rudderless ship or suddenly with AI I didn't start out with.
I try to organise training when I'm online ( and did prior to there being any achievements connected to it for the cynics out there), or crew with low level players in matches, not because I enjoy doing it but because I believe well trained players will make the game more fun and challenging in the long run. I'm not claiming sainthood either I'm sure there are players who don' t remember crewing with me fondly, but what I am saying is perhaps you don't see the game the way I do because we don't play in the same games, but that doesn't make what I have to say invalid or off topic.
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I didn't mean to invalidate what you said.
I agree that there is currently a lot of incentive for teams to continue playing with the people they're achieving great teamwork with and consequently smashing their opponents over and over again. Teamstacking is an issue, and I think Muse should implement a way to assist teams in swapping ships to balance out matches.
I just don't think teamstacking completely explains the issue with ragequitting I've been observing lately. There is always going to be a team that's winning and with the game mechanics of GOI frequently a team can start to run away with it. However I just don't think that the possibility of losing a match because your opponent seems superior is ever acceptable. GOI is a game where you can always make a comeback. You can repair your armor and components, rally with your teammate and attempt to work your way towards victory. Attempting to do anything else cheats your teammates and opponents from the experience they are all trying to have and the frustration and capitulation of one person ruining the experience of 15 other people just doesn't seem to be justified.
I'm just advocating a system that discourages this by highlighting frequent offenders. Fixing this and teamstacking are in no way mutually exclusive.
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I just don't think teamstacking completely explains the issue with ragequitting I've been observing lately.
However I just don't think that the possibility of losing a match because your opponent seems superior is ever acceptable. GOI is a game where you can always make a comeback.
I agree 100% with the second point and take on board your first.
Muse, I believe, has had a long hard look at other multiplayer games and at how in-game rewards affect player behaviour, and implemented its conclusions very successfully. So I think though rather than a punitive solution, the answer could be to reward players who don't quit matches.
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Ragequitting pilots are a problem. But many new players think they can take it on with high-level players, maybe because they don't know how to join beginner games. They don't know what to do or how to do it or just lack the experience/experienced crew.
So the real problem isn't people disappearing, it's the problem behind. That new/unexperienced players don't know about beginner matches or just think they're unnecessary/those new/unexperienced players are better than that or that they don't know how to join a match properly using Quick Join instead. (Impatience is a really big problem because they don't know how important it is to wait for your crew to listen to the captain.)
Get rid of those problems and you solve the problem about most of those people quitting.
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Players should be able to leave in the middle of a match if they are not having fun. I don't think that shaming them for doing so is a good idea.
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or that they don't know how to join a match properly using Quick Join instead.
ah yes I would remove the Quick join button if I could, how many crews from hell are formed that way I shudder to think :D
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Quick join has been fixed where if there is no available beginners match for a low lvl player, it will make on instead.... So those lvl1 pilots who join your ship did so through the match selection screen
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Players should be able to leave in the middle of a match if they are not having fun. I don't think that shaming them for doing so is a good idea.
I would agree with this if it wasn't for the fact that a rage quitting captain makes everyone else not have fun with them. It's just really selfish to ruin everyone else's match with you. There's a reason Muse put in the surrender feature.
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What does the surrender feature do, btw?
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What does the surrender feature do, btw?
Pretty much puts the ship of the surrendered pilot in the 'surrender' state, if he leaves, it will automatically pilot itself to the edge of the map, in order to end a game all pilots need to surrender, so basically if only one guy surrenders his team needs to concede as well, else it's the same thing wether he rage quits or not. He just leaves.
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https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1316.0.html
It appears that we have a duplicate discussion going here. I spent a good minute last thread articulating my thoughts, and I posted it already. I'm not sure if I should copy and paste to this dupe thread or not, so I'll err on the side of polite caution and skip it.
Same as Moo and others said, a damn near identical thread to this one was thrown up several weeks ago, and quite a few people have already left their opinions there. If you are interested in this subject matter, will you please read it? I still think my suggestion, covered in the first thread, is a good idea. Many people seemed to agree. What do you think?
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1316.0.html
Additionally, Smollett, you had already posted in the older thread a month ago. Why, exactly, did you feel the need to start a new post, knowing full well that the other existed? Why not just try reposting to the old one if you think this subject suddenly became relevant again? That would have pushed the older post back to the top of the board, and facilitated continued discussion rather than just rehashing the same ideas. I think a new post for the same subject adds a layer of confusion and makes the discussion process a little harder... I wouldn't even be bringing this up if you were new to the community, but c'mon man-you're Smollett. I have high expectations :P
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To be honest, I'm old and senile and completely forgot about the other post. The thread was sort of reactionary after playing two days full of rage quitting captains.
If possible I'd like to request a moderator merge the threads.
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The topics have been merged.
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Quick join has been fixed where if there is no available beginners match for a low lvl player, it will make on instead.... So those lvl1 pilots who join your ship did so through the match selection screen
Good to know - I'll start nudging new players in that direction.
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Guys, stop...
You are now going to fix a symptom of a problem rather than a problem itself. Lets first start with as to why the general captain ragequit in the first place. I have quit as the captain of a ship several times. Is it because I'm losing? No. Anyone that has played with me knows I don't mind losing, losing means that I can and should learn. Losing is just part of the gaming process. What pisses me off to no end as a captain is people not following orders. There are quite a number of who have the hearing and comprehensive ability that is even below the abilities of insects found throughout the planet. Some people are repairing broken equipment with the mallet or damage equipment with a spanner, even if you tell them they shouldn't do that. And sometimes you get crew members that correct these bad engineers for you, but most of the times you are dropping out of the sky faster than you are used to. When my attention however is drawn to my crew rather than the ships around me, that is pretty much strike 1. If I start shouting and my crew still doesn't listen, that is strike 2. If my ship dies several times because of this, that is strike 3 and I'm gone.
I can very well understand that captains who are flying a ship full with people that essentially don't take orders leave the game. I have done this on several occasions and I have informed my fellow captain when this happened(I think). There's simply a limit to player's patience and that is perfectly normal. So having any form of punishment system is essentially just adding to the frustration of these players. I'd much rather have people focusing on the reasons why these captains quit and fixing those rather than fighting this symptom. And then we can have mods deal with the captains that quit to troll.
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Whenever I've got no friends available to play with, I always check the running matches list in search of 3/4 captains.
9/10 times, the crew listens to me, the ally listens to me, and everything (socially) is what I expect from a random game.
The only reason I can see that a Captain left is that the score is 3-0 or the ship is absolute crap. (Harpoon/Flare Pyri, anyone?)
While you may have your own justified reasons for leaving, most other people don't.
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I agree with you James T, most people are fairly agreeable and actually want to win.
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Whenever I've got no friends available to play with, I always check the running matches list in search of 3/4 captains.
9/10 times, the crew listens to me, the ally listens to me, and everything (socially) is what I expect from a random game.
The only reason I can see that a Captain left is that the score is 3-0 or the ship is absolute crap. (Harpoon/Flare Pyri, anyone?)
While you may have your own justified reasons for leaving, most other people don't.
Whenever I hear communication between players of any team where either captain is about to quit, it is usually what I described, the players do not listen. Having a ragequit punishment will only add to the agony of players that don't deserve it.
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In the circumstances you describe, with a dysfunctional crew, you could agree with the other captain(s) on your team to surrender, ending the match quickly. That way you don't have to quit, the game doesn't have to continue with basically a whole ship missing, and you won't have any problem with any quit-tracking measures.
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And again, it doesn't solve the issue of players not listening. Those players will simply stay in the game even if you tell them to leave. When you start another round, those players are likely to still be there. There is no difference for said captain to just quit or to surrender and quit, except that the latter requires more actions and approval of the other captain(s).
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How's this for an idea - level 1 players are level locked into playing with level 1-3 players unless invited to a match with higher levels, and vice versa for more experienced players, ie they can't crew in a level locked match unless they get invite/s from players in the match lobby.
Note I baulk at the idea of completely level locking the game.
That gets around a lot of issues while leaving relative freedom of play, also allowing higher level players to mentor new players in matches consisting of only new players if they (the experienced players) wish. In the sessions I've been running the response from older players has been fantastic, we've had completely experienced crews focused on training one role, yet organising involves a lot of waiting about, because while I have access as a trainer, I can't just set up a level 1-3 match then call in the experienced dudes.
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QKO is level 3, so level restrictions wouldn't help there. Also by preventing the low level players joining "normal" games, they'd take longer to discover "how it all works", unless they are lucky enough to get more structured training like you suggest. That'd include stuff like how it's a team game, and how ignoring everyone and just doing your own stuff isn't going to get you anywhere...
And for QKO... Yes, surrendering is less easy, but ragequitting is lame, so...
Quite likely the troublesome players will quit after the match, especially if you tell them why you surrendered. You can report them if they are persist in being nuisances. You can also create a new lobby, or just jump to another existing one. Presumably this is what you'd do if you had just quit, so surrendering doesn't really make a difference here...
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Also by preventing the low level players joining "normal" games, they'd take longer to discover "how it all works", unless they are lucky enough to get more structured training like you suggest. That'd include stuff like how it's a team game, and how ignoring everyone and just doing your own stuff isn't going to get you anywhere...
that's exactly what I'm suggesting it to be used for - I'm seeing regular players getting involved in structured training sessions already ostensibly showing new players how to play a role, yet at the same time demonstrating what a "healthy" crew and team looks and feels like. There are however organisational issues which means spontaneity gets killed a little ie making sure everyone is on the same page as to what exactly it is we're doing takes time, a lot more than just clicking on Match and Ready, while this however is a handy filter for removing the "GO! GO! GO!" kind of player, it does mean people volunteering their game time need a lot of patience.
Also the kind of players that want to learn proabably won't have any trouble getting invites to non level locked games
surrendering is less easy, but ragequitting is lame, so...
especially if you tell them why you surrendered.
I had a game like that today - started out with an all AI squid then found myself with 2 level 1 gunners and a level 1 captain. Oh and the captain wasn't responding to voice chat or text chat, that with a level 2 team mate who was comming but had a crew consisting of a non-comm level 1 plus AI. I was in no condition to help him as a team mate nor was he me. I abandoned the match and told my team mate how to do the same in team chat.
After I went into global chat and explained why.