Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: roder on May 22, 2013, 02:50:42 pm
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I keep on encountering these type of people, the ones that not only suggest, but demand your change your loadout
-2 gunners not allowed, must be 2 engy 1 gunner, 3 engy even better!
-No weapons allowed other than flak/gunner, must switch weapon if these arent on your ship
-No goldfish or squid allowed, ships recommended to change to are: Pyra or Galleon
-No chemical spray allowed, pls switch your loadout to: Wrench, Spanner/Buffer, Extinguisher
And the funny part is, theyre not even on your team! Often times theyre on the other team or even enemy team telling you how to run your ship or how to play the game how they want you to play it. Please, don't try to play the game for others or if you're a captain, run your own ship and not others. The worst part is I have a sneaking suspicion that these people make up the majority of the game population ,at least all of the higher levels I've encountered are like this
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This has been a public service announcement.
If you'd like to argue why people should be listening to you instead of playing their own loadouts or own ship, go ahead. But you're better of playing with your own team and own pre-made partnered team, because there are actually people in this game that want to have fun and play the game how they want to.
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I want to say I remember you from last night, but I'm terribad with names. There is a point where a captain knows what he wants his ship to do, and asks people to kit accordingly. Of course, you saying "I want this please" will get a better response over "Well I'm taking this instead cause you're stupid."
As a captain by trade, I expect orders followed, but not because I hate you.
Now offering suggestions to other boats in a lobby is one thing. Ordering them around is silly... To address your concerns:
-2 gunners is widely accepted as a bad way to go, just because one engineer can't keep an entire boat up effectively. 3 engies, to me, is overkill. That's highly debatable to many people though.
-Suggesting guns is fine. Demanding is...curious and won't get any response from me besides leaving that lobby or telling them to find a new boat.
-All boats are useful, and anyone telling you differently is just wrong.
-Chem and extinguish have their place, and really is up to the engineer as to what they want to use. One of each is very useful when running 2 engies.
You aren't encountering the majority of the community, at least from my long experience here.
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This might not be considered gentlemanly, but I promptly tell those folks to bugger off unless I feel like playing ramming pyramidion.
Play how you like. Screw the randos on the Internet.
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I find that once I get a crew that stays with me, they are more open to trying out whatever. Before you set up the squid with the moonshine and bumpers, win a match with your crew first, then they'll be more receptive to trying something crazy, I find.
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- The only ship I would want two gunners on, maybe, is a Galleon. I'm with Zill on having at least one gunner though.
- I can understand suggesting different loadouts/guns, but there are better setups then Gat/Flak. Demanding is just being rude. I find explaining my load out generally helps people grasp why I am not using meta.
- No Goldfish or Squids? If they want to fly two of the slowest turning ships in the game go ahead. I will be in my Squid and get plenty of kills off of them plus tar barrel them for insult to injury. Goldfish's are brutal in proper hands (/me Looks at Zill). As said earlier. Every ship can be good.
- I always take chem spray when I'm a engineer. The extra fire protection can be useful in a pinch, but that's my personal preference.
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Heh thanks for the replies, I guess I have just encountered the wrong people. I am all for friendly suggestions, but there are people that won't ready up until you've switch your ship, your class/loadout to their liking, THEN we can start the game. That just really irks me, a full lobby of players waiting and 1 allied captain and both enemy captains just shitting on some other guy's ship Lol yeah real fun.
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I highly suggest looking into joining a clan (Look down in The Docks forum). It will allow you group up and play with some very good pilots and crew who generally won't be yelling/demanding you to do X.
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-Enter shameless group plug here-
I also have a group of guys who play regularly, who just play together and generally enjoy each other's company. I don't just recruit people, but invite those who I feel won't butt heads with everyone and so far has survived. You're welcome in my matches for a few rounds and if you enjoy yourself, there yea go.
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More experienced players advise you to take certain load outs so you and your crew don't end up regretting the decisions you made in the lobby. Most of us are tired of new players rage quitting when their nonstandard builds turn out to be completely ineffective.
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Perhaps this gentlemen ran into me...
See I tend to run my ship with crew having very specific roles in a predefined strategy.
Often a player will leave my well organised crew and it's much easier to ask the new player joining to step into the role of the player that left than taking the 5 minutes to shuffle an entire crew so that the joining player can play how they like to.
Of course if they ask, accommodations can be made but every member of the ships load out depends on what the rest of the crew are taking to ensure that all areas of the ship are accounted for and to give the team the best chance at victory. This is why I'll often plead with someone to take a certain build, to save time from having to change everything.
I guess what I'm saying is, that everyone is here to have fun, but I have fun by winning, and my suggestions are almost always to direct a team towards that goal.
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Perhaps this gentlemen ran into me...
I guess what I'm saying is, that everyone is here to have fun, but I have fun by winning, and my suggestions are almost always to direct a team towards that goal.
This gentleman definitely ran into me. Smollett, I entirely agree.
I always try to explain WHY i suggest taking certain ships/weapons/loadouts. I want to teach the new players the way to win. I've often an into players who insist on taking two junkers with all flak cannons, or all flame pyras, and telling me I'm a piece of crap for trying to advise them towards a better balance. More often though, I've had new players ask questions at length about what guns I'm bringing, how I'm using them, and general strategy.
With all the new players getting their first days/weeks experience solely with new players in the beginner rooms, there is often a hard transition into rooms where captains have a better grasp on items/ships/weapons/optimal loadouts.
This leads us to a problem. When I'm facing a level 1 captain with a carronade on a spire, there are three things that can happen:
1) I bring my A-game, and wipe the floor with them. Every game. Until everyone on the other team quits without a clue as to why they had no kills. Not very fun for anyone
2) I intentionally play like CRAP, the new player may win. First of all, I'm not gonna play like crap, end of story. Also if the roles were reversed I doubt I'd have fun knowing I got a pity win.
3) I teach the new players everything I know about weapon interactions, optimal loadouts, ship crewing strategies, and teamwork techniques. They get better, get a few hard-fought kills, and end the day being quite a bit better against other low-level players.
I'm going with number three, and I will not change my mind on that. Sorry. I want to do everything in my power to help new players get up to the highest level of play as quickly as possible. If I see an enemy with an all flame pyramidion, I'm going to make SURE I don't start the match until they understand why it's not a good idea. If they still want to go with it, then it's their choice, and most likely they will quit before the end of the match anyway.
Think of this game like a game of chess. Each piece has it's own strategy, one that is best followed strictly. Sure you can sacrifice your queen to save a pawn, quite easily might I add. It's a completely valid move, and telling anyone they "CAN'T" do that is wrong, because they totally can. But it's not the way the game is actually meant to be played. It's when a player has a full understand of what each of his pieces can and should do, likewise what his opponent is planning, that the game begins to enter a strategic level. The same can be said of every piece of equipment, weaponry, and ship in this game. While every combination is technically acceptable, there are just things that are wrong and will never work out well for you. Likewise, there are several general strategies involving crew, ships, and guns that tend to work out very well most of the time. It's how you utilize the combination that is the true game.
I try my best to be polite, offer advice instead of orders, and suggestions instead of demands. If this isn't the way it comes off always, then I apologize. You have to understand, as frustrating as it is for you to have someone barking orders at you, imagine trying to play for over an hour, and not being able to find an enemy team that will finish a match without rage quitting. It's very aggravating, and sometimes the sixth gunner on my ship who refuses to change class does end up getting the pent up stress of the last five.
Sorry if my clan or I stressed you out, brother. Hope to see you in the skies soon.
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As soon as I read this I thought of you guys. The "other team" gave it away.
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Some folks you've met, Roderve. I've never had that problem, although I never play pilot. :D
Once I met a captain who asked whether I preferred sniper or gatling, which was very nice.
I would be last to sneak-peek other people's loadouts and comment on them, that is just plain rude IMO. Only when we have a group that has been pre-negotiated would I see the checking of loadouts as an acceptable procedure. Being rude helps no one. It is captain who decides the ship, tells us how he is going to run it and what is the strategy overall.
You DO NOT slap your trout around thinking you know better than the other guy, sheesh.
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Perhaps this gentlemen ran into me...
I guess what I'm saying is, that everyone is here to have fun, but I have fun by winning, and my suggestions are almost always to direct a team towards that goal.
Think of this game like a game of chess. Each piece has it's own strategy, one that is best followed strictly. Sure you can sacrifice your queen to save a pawn, quite easily might I add. It's a completely valid move, and telling anyone they "CAN'T" do that is wrong, because they totally can. But it's not the way the game is actually meant to be played. It's when a player has a full understand of what each of his pieces can and should do, likewise what his opponent is planning, that the game begins to enter a strategic level. The same can be said of every piece of equipment, weaponry, and ship in this game. While every combination is technically acceptable, there are just things that are wrong and will never work out well for you. Likewise, there are several general strategies involving crew, ships, and guns that tend to work out very well most of the time. It's how you utilize the combination that is the true game.
I try my best to be polite, offer advice instead of orders, and suggestions instead of demands. If this isn't the way it comes off always, then I apologize. You have to understand, as frustrating as it is for you to have someone barking orders at you, imagine trying to play for over an hour, and not being able to find an enemy team that will finish a match without rage quitting. It's very aggravating, and sometimes the sixth gunner on my ship who refuses to change class does end up getting the pent up stress of the last five.
It's one thing when someone makes suggestions, and another thing when someone rages about it. I've been in a few games when someone on a team goes totally bananas about some of the stuff that's been discussed so far in this thread, and leaves because someone isn't playing "the right way". Thankfully that's been relatively few and far between, but it does happen.
Keep in mind that suggestion that someone makes can also come off as pretty condescending from some folks, but really the point is experimentation with different stuff in the game also shouldn't be discouraged.
Personally, when I pilot, I don't really care who comes along as long as they try, and I find that folks will naturally adjust the way they play to the stuff you do in game. Oh, I will point out though that sometimes folks come with a weird set of tools because of the achievement system. Yeah, sorry, I'd love to bring a mallet and spanner and extinguisher, but I've gotta buff like a trillion guns to meet my next feasible goal >.>
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Perhaps this gentlemen ran into me...
I did run into you, I thought you were a very good pilot/captain that directed well.
The problem is other captains that shove their orders down your throat haha To respond to the other guy that said they give advice to newbies so they don't ragequit when they find their build is ineffective, I don't think they expect to do entirely well when they are first starting out. But going on about how they are not playing right or playing bad might also have a hand in them ragequtting hah
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As said, the vast majority of new players greatly appreciate the advice. People like you are in a severe minority. I'm sorry I offended you by offering my help, but I fully intend to continue.
I don't actually recall belittling anyone at any point in time just for being new or not understanding mechanics, but I'll be very mindful of that in the future. Thank you for the constructive criticism. Have a nice day. :)
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I absolutely cannot stand it when other pilots quit because they want all engineers, or they don't want two gunners. If you want to try to run the perfect loadout with the perfect crew, join a tournament. For what amounts to a pick-up game at the public ball courts, get over yourself and just play the damn game.
If you're not willing to flex your ship for the crew and expect the crew to do all of the changing for a public game, you're a captain in slot selection only.
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I want to be very clear here, that I am only admitting to offering unwanted advice to rodereve. I only vaguely remember asking if he wanted a critique on his loadout in one single game, he said "no" and left the room.
I am not the type to make these flat demands, and quit the game or freak out if they aren't followed. I always offer advice, and may possibly be guilty of using definite terms like "must" or "best" when describing optimal load outs, and I will work on that. And yes, I have and will always request that my crew goes (mostly) engineers, with a specific loadout. But I do this to give our ship and team an advantage, and I reserve it as my right of a captain.
The only time I lose my cool is when dealing with a player who refuses to do anything I ask him on my ship, such as preferring to spend most of the round jumping in front of the captain instead of gunning OR repairing. Even then it takes towards the end of the round or a few complete rounds before I actually get vocally upset. I am not sure how else to deal with players who clearly have no interest in playing a team-based game.
I have seen, since the TGS influx, a very small number players who are very violently averse to ANY suggestions or tips. I really appreciate this thread, as now I have a bit of insight, and know what to work on with my teaching approach in order to make everyone happy.
rodereve, check your PMs, I sent you an item code for an engineer outfit, in a misguided effort to make up for any inconvenience I may or may not have caused you.
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To just tell someone what to do. especialy another captain is kinda rude. Commands durring battle are one thing but a persons set up is another...
But what i dont understand is why people dont take it upon them selves to either ask questoins about what works or simply look it up. I looked at the wiki and learned alot about what works and what doesnt. Doesnt mean i wont try some "oddball" set ups but background info is very important.. and if you couldnt give a straight argument why you are doing the things you are then in some cases it may be better to take the advise givin to you...
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I absolutely cannot stand it when other pilots quit because they want all engineers, or they don't want two gunners. If you want to try to run the perfect loadout with the perfect crew, join a tournament. For what amounts to a pick-up game at the public ball courts, get over yourself and just play the damn game.
If you're not willing to flex your ship for the crew and expect the crew to do all of the changing for a public game, you're a captain in slot selection only.
Depends on the ship and the players. If you've got a bunch of ADD kids on your ship running around spraying ammo at clouds instead of the enemy then a pilot has every right to leave them to die. You also have the violent players. I've seen them and had them on my ship before. They are not something that should be put up with by anyone.
If some powder monkey quick joiners hop in and start to ruin a crew by not listening or doing the above then let the pilot quit. He shouldn't have to put up with that. Heck I now outright ask the players leave game. If they don't I give them reason to leave by exiting battle and/or taring the guns so they don't have a way to amuse themselves.
Pub matches and tourney matches are each their own things but Pub matches shouldn't be an excuse to play daycare.
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I'm talking about in the lobby, just loadouts alone. What you're talking about is different.
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I absolutely cannot stand it when other pilots quit because they want all engineers, or they don't want two gunners. If you want to try to run the perfect loadout with the perfect crew, join a tournament. For what amounts to a pick-up game at the public ball courts, get over yourself and just play the damn game.
If you're not willing to flex your ship for the crew and expect the crew to do all of the changing for a public game, you're a captain in slot selection only.
This is rather melodramatic. Like most of the veteran captains here, I am delighted to play with newer players who are eager to listen and learn. Players who ignore me or shout obscenities at me when I politely request that there are at least two engineers on the ship I don't really enjoy playing with. If a new player says "Can I play with this class/ship/loadout because I want to practice it and/or get the achievements?" I would be only too happy to oblige. It's the players who are obtuse and don't even attempt to constructively communicate why they're doing what they're doing I eventually give up on for a better crew.
Likewise, I once had a level one co-pilot who flew a squid, picked all mercuries and parked directly in front of a galleon's left broadside. This was a little frustrating and didn't work out too well. Still, he listened to me carefully when I explained to him a better strategy and loadout to try with the squid, and how to use it effectively with an ally, and we were winning matches in no time (by the way, this wasn't Gilder, as funny as that would be XD). I was really happy about this. If a co-pilot wants to ignore me or insult me when I'm trying to work with him and give him advice, however, I see little point in playing with them other than out of a perverse curiosity to see how badly they do.
If I'm engineering and a captain asks me to go with a certain loadout, then I'll respect it, even if I disagree, because it's his/her ship and they know how they want it to function. It's no fun for the captain if I just ignore him and go pilot/gunner when he wants me to buff and repair his engines and hull.
Just to summarize; communication is the key. It's fine if you want to play a second/third gunner, or an unconventional ship and loadout, but at least talk to the rest of your team about it first. If they're not ok with it, that's a shame, but there are plenty of other matches you can join.
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So I'm melodramatic, but you agree with me?
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The phrasing was melodramatic. It placed too much emphasis on the captain just "sucking it up" and dealing with whatever hand he was dealt or otherwise not being worthy of being called a true captain. I was trying to reiterate as others have here, that it cuts both ways. If you actually agree with what I'm saying then fair enough, but if so I think that point could've been made in a more moderate tone.
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I don't do moderate on forums. It's my only excuse to be an asshole and have no repercussions.
I do think tolerance is an important part of a captain's qualities. The responsibilities for training crew members and ensuring that a good atmosphere is the captain's. In that vein, the captains govern the mood of the community, in a way. I won't insult your intelligence to enumerate, but the intensity of some people in dictating crew composition is overdone. I also end up playing during the Russian surge. I dislike profiling, but it can be a demographic-related problem.
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I'm not the most experienced captain ever, but I can manage to fly I guess and I realy appreciate it when people listen to what I have to say, which in the rare occassion that I even need to point it out, is usually about people going double gunner on my ship.
I know people like to use the guns a lot, especially the newer players, but the ship simply doesn't have enough maintainance like that, especially when I'm on a Spire or Junker (or any ship realy), I simply need more people to repair things.
I also know that ships like the Pyra and Junker don't realy need any gunners on board, but I don't realy mind having one since it brings some variety and some nice ammo.
Still, I like it when my crew actually accomadates to the needs of the ship, stubborn people simply won't have me as a captain cause they simply refuse to co-operate with me, which is not the point of this game.
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Unfortunately you will find people who will want you to change your entire ship if the set-up doesn't make much sense to them. The good and the bad part of this is that it's largely driven by player rank, as that's the first impression that is made. If people see that the pilot in question is rank 1-3, they often assume they don't know the most accepted builds and will try to sway them in that direction, one way or another, if the captain is rank 5+, then they can run some pretty ridiculous things and no one will call them out on is, because it is assumed they know what they are doing. Note, this is all thrown out the window after the first match, as then everyone sees what your real skill level is, be it better or worse than what the players in the lobby assumed.
As far as not listening to your own captain in the lobby... please do. Their ship is designed to work a certain way and everyone does have a distinct role, both of which is determined by the captain. Who fills that role is a different story, and you can request to swap positions, but it is there regardless. There is also a mathematical limit to how much one engineer can do, no matter how skilled, and by forging your own path and not listening to your captain, all you are doing is causing more stress for everyone else in the ship.
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As a 5+ leveled captain people still call me out on some of my experimental builds. I try to warn my crew that I am running an experiment, and even explain the bizarre logic behind the build over lobby chat so that the other team knows what I am trying to do.
Usually saying "trust me" is enough to silence my critics pre game, and "ok ok I will go back to a normal build" or "see I am not as dumb as I look" (depending on if it worked or not) is enough to silence them post game.
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Unless something blatantly doesn't make sense (dual flaks on front of a Pyra) I try not to be too demanding about changing set ups. Instead, if the person is a talker, I ask them to explain their ship to me. If they explain their ship in a way that at least contains some confulted logic, I will generally say "Huh, interesting." Then I will play the next round, get stomped, and then give some suggestions next round (unless of course it worked out well...it doesnt though).
I do a similar thing to people who insist on being a gunner. I ask them which gun on my ship benefits greatly from having three ammo types and only one repair tool.
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I like this topic, I mean I like it a lot.
I didn't want to post initially because I didn't know where the conversation was going. But strategic norm, this I am not.
I love flaky, weird, nonsense builds, even ones that don't work. I mean, that's pretty much how flare snuck its way into the meta right? Being creative is incredibly important, a creative and aware crew can do some odd and amazing things with the apparently worse combinations.
And when an entire team can come together to execute some strange new idea? It's glorious, just simply glorious. Glorious like a pyramidion with a side harpoon nailing a goldfish in the tail, keeping it steady for my spire to blow it to hell with a hellhound/chaingun mix. Retarded setup, spectacular kill.
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Flare is more or less in cause carronades take too long and flamers are blech since the nerf a few patches ago. I changed a lot of my carronade mounts to flare. Lot easier to flare a balloon and then keep dpsing than to sit there chewing on the balloon while another enemy gets a firing angle. Only problem is noobs don't understand it and waste flares till you tell them. Watch muse next nerfs flares.
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I blame the Artemis buff/nerf for the prevalence of flares. For a brief time we had an effective gun with a very wide maximum turn. People were getting trifecta's left and right and the main engie was able to get in on the glory. Then the turning rate stole its thunder but not the desire for the main engie to contribute some pain. So we give him a flare gun to play with. The Main engie gets to make hit boxes, and doesn't feel obligated to stick to the gun because specialty ammo is unnecessary on the flare.
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I ran into this today.
Context:
When i achievement hunt i do it in low pop games, because less face it if you haven't got more than 2 people you haven't really got a tactic worth talking about, so there's nothing to ruin.
Anyway pretty simple cheevo just kill ships as a gunner, So i drop into a low pop game take the flak of a gat/flak pyra. Now i knew there was already a gunner on board, but we all know you cant trust the AI to fire the gat so logically the gunner was on that, so no real issue, you'd have to be slightly anal to take offense to someone who's going to help time the flak shots even if they are a second gunner.
This guy Rokt (or something) *EXPLODED* and proceeded to tell me from his moral high ground how rude i had been by being a second gunner and question why i would do such a thing.
Partly to fuel his outrage i was honest and told him i was hunting achievements, but i offhandedly threw in he should be grateful that he now had timing. Despite running the build he didn't seem to understand the concept and railed on a bit more, and on lobby (which was a very short time later) he left.
I think its this sort of thing that the OP was getting at, When the reactions are divorced from reality - I mean i've never even been to COD how can i go back :P
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This guy Rokt (or something) *EXPLODED* and proceeded to tell me from his moral high ground how rude i had been by being a second gunner and question why i would do such a thing.
Partly to fuel his outrage i was honest and told him i was hunting achievements, but i offhandedly threw in he should be grateful that he now had timing. Despite running the build he didn't seem to understand the concept and railed on a bit more, and on lobby (which was a very short time later) he left.
Had a few--mostly new--players get so angry that I timed my flak. "Aim for the weapons or something!" they always shouted...and I kept explaining that "It's quicker to destroy their everything with timing than random shooting."
Ever since the 1-stack fire doesn't disable weapons...flak isn't real good for that, and yeah you can destroy a gun after a while if nobody pays attention to it...