Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Kinesis on May 20, 2013, 12:57:50 am
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Im sure anyone who has played gets annoyed how a 3 man engineer team with the 1 gunner skill needed to man the main guns can easily outgun and crazyily out-tank everyone. On top of that the gunner feels very trivial usually only needing one type of ammo to compensate for their main gun. My suggestion is to make the classes more unique.
For the captain, No engineer slot, or gunner slot, 5 captain slots.
For the Engineer, One Captain slot (for sightglass), 4 engineer slots, 0 gunner slots
For the Gunner, One Captain slot (again sightglass), 3 Gunner slots, and only a choice between a weak all around repair item (not the wrench its too good at rebuild), hammer, or fire extinguisher.
On top of that make the gunner abilities considerably better than the default ammo. Since only the gunner can use it, it makes a reason to not have all engineers.
As it stands right now firefights against teams who either drop guns and go full repairs on retreat or already have multiple engineers are considerably hard to take down if not impossible at times without the Pyramidian win combo. The problem stems from too many people working together to instant rebuild hull, making it so they constantly tank the next volley even if they loose the armor seconds later. Since with two people either pipe+pipe or pipe+wrench takes around 2-3 seconds to rebuild. The cooldown system works wonders but the rebuild system is making games infuriatingly long if after 6+ volleys of double rocket launcher barrages they still look like they havent take a hit of worth of hull damage it feels rather underpowered compared to the repair capabilities of multiple engineers/people with the tools.
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Hey! first off I don't think I've welcomed you to the forums yet, so welcome! Secondly, there are two things that I would like to say regarding this.
First, if you have all 3 crew tanking the hull, then you have absolutely no dps cranking out of your ship... this allows you to maneuver anywhere you want around the enemy (excluding tar of course) to get the most optimal killing power. Secondly, even with the hull down for 2 seconds, you can easily kill the enemy faster than what you think, but this takes coordination. If we're talking a metamidion (Gat/flak pyra for those unfamiliar with the term) you should always have whoever is on the flak wait until they see that the armor is down in the upper left hand corner. I typically like to put greased in there on those occasions as well, so I can get some more dps. if we're talking hwachafish or something similar, I would stick a gat on the sides, and bring phoenix claw gunner would always sit on the hwacha, and the engies would grab a gat when available to widdle down the armor... once the armor is down, phoenix claw fast to bring the front gun in range and wipe them out :) .... I hope that helps
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I agree with the sentiment but I'm not sure that's the right way to do it. I think part of the beauty of GOIO is that anyone can do anything in a pinch. By having engineers unable to shoot, you would be undermining the possibility of pulling off clutch victories by having certain classes do what they're not initially supposed to.
My way to look at the issue is the following: Both Pilots and Engineers have tools that are of extreme importance in different situations of the same match. It is guaranteed that all three engineer tools will be useful through a challenging match, and so are the pilot tools. However, whether or not the gunner ammo is useful depends on how well the ship dictates the engagement. A ship that plays optimally (staying in their best range) or one that is simply based on a specific, non-flexible strategy has little use for multiple types of ammo.
My proposal to fix this would be to diversify the sort of stuff a Gunner can do, besides different types of ammo, so that a 3 gunner tool set is more or less guaranteed to be useful through a match. For instance, I would give the Gunner a tool to boost reload times, or a superstition based "phoenix claw-like" booster that greatly increases damage when the ship is damaged.
Other way to go at it would be (and I might make a post about this later on to see what people think) to completely eliminate "standard ammo". If, in order to fire a gun, you needed to load a specific gunner ammo in it, I think it would be much better for the gunners, because engineers would be quite constrained in what they can do.
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We would never see the end of tar barrels that way! I think gunner just needs more perks as a class, I feel removing the cross class tool slots would hurt the game more than help
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Could we do something like the pilot tools? For example we could have a tool that increases the turn radius of the weapon or the angle it can be aimed?
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Here. (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,410.0.html)
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As previously stated, getting all three crew on the hull is a pretty good way to make sure you're going to lose the fight. You'll get the hull up quickly, sure, but you'll never do any damage to the other ship. It's a terrible strategy. You only need one person on the hull, maybe two if you're in dire trouble. The DPS that the gunners/gungineers put out is far more useful than the repairs they can do.
Engineers having four repair tools would ruin the role completely. There'd only be two viable setups: mallet/spanner/extinguisher(or chem)/buff. You wouldn't even have to spend any time thinking about what tools to bring. Same goes for pilot. Three is a perfect amount in that it gives you a lot of options, but leaves you wanting a little bit more from time to time. It's important that you come a little short of getting everything you want, because then you actually have to make a choice.
And what's wrong with gunners having a wrench? They already repair pitifully compared to engineers, they don't need to be nerfed anymore. If anything, your suggestion sounds more like a great way to buff engineers and pilots while doing little to actually help the gunner. Sure, the gunner would be able to use specialized ammo while the engi can't, but the gunner wouldn't be able to maintain their gun properly. And the engi would get to buff, too.
While I agree that something has to be done to make the gunner more viable, I don't think this is the best way to do so.
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Pilot is fine where it is, the sole reason gunners are barely used anymore is becouse they nerfed flamers. That's it. In 1.1.3 meta was 1 pilot 2 engineers and 1 gunner. Engineers only packed heatsink ammo back then, becouse flamers instantly made weapons useless (1 stack of flame = was weapon dissabled). Gunners could actualy pack usefull ammo types in adittion to heatsink ammo (heatsink ammo still inreases weapon turning speed, but imunity to being set on fire is useless nowdays, got chemspray for that). All they have to do is to make flamers instantly dissable (not destroy just dissable) with 1st stack of fire and nerf chem spray to confer no more than 3sec protection against flames.
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Pilot is fine where it is, the sole reason gunners are barely used anymore is becouse they nerfed flamers. That's it. In 1.1.3 meta was 1 pilot 2 engineers and 1 gunner. Engineers only packed heatsink ammo back then, becouse flamers instantly made weapons useless (1 stack of flame = was weapon dissabled). Gunners could actualy pack usefull ammo types in adittion to heatsink ammo (heatsink ammo still inreases weapon turning speed, but imunity to being set on fire is useless nowdays, got chemspray for that). All they have to do is to make flamers instantly dissable (not destroy just dissable) with 1st stack of fire and nerf chem spray to confer no more than 3sec protection against flames.
I think this is a corollary to my previous post. Gunners are useful insofar their skill set can cover different scenarios of a single match. The issue right now is that you generally just need 1 type of ammo to make your build work through most of the match.
If gunners had ammo types (or other skills) geared towards utility in different situations other than straight offense they would be more appealing, I think.
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With exception of Lochnegar and Heatsink ammo, all the other types are usefull. Just need to make flamer back to where it was before it was remade into something most captains laugh off. Where old flamer used to make guns instantly unsusable and you needed heatsink ammo as engineer, meaning they were much less usefull at gunning, than they are now.
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I find loch very useful in a hellhound :)
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if your gunner is only using one type of ammo the whole time your gunner is not landing the most shots possible with the arcing weps or not boosting the damage when you need to to get the kill quicker. Gunning gameplay is different from engineering and piloting, in that it is more subtle. using one ammo type is good enough, you will get the kills. but a gunner that can identify when to do a damage boost, or when to boost the AOE, etc. (not to mention knowing where to hit each ship) will get the kills a few enemy hull cycles quicker. In a game where you are not taking too much damage it doesnt really matter. However, a gunner clinching a kill as quick as possible saves your ass just as much as an engineer repairing your ship.
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3 man tanking hull?
shoot their balloon, then 2 man is tanking the hull.
then proceed to make it hell for those 2 guys.
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Ok from what im seeing alot of people are missing how 3 man hull tanking works and its effectiveness.
Yes, there is no damage output on a 3 man hull tank, but it is also nearly impossible to destroy without a well made anti-armor anti-hull combo. So many a times youll find them sitting on the sand just hull tanking for a solid 10 minutes and unable to be killed even with a Galleon on broad side hitting it with both guns non-stop. Ive heard more tales but ive seen it myself a good 10 times in my short carrier. So dont think the "shoot the engines/balloon" works because they can easily sit in the sand and tank till you get bored.
As for gunner I still find the versatility of the ammos to be moot at best. Most builds have the Chinese rocket launcher, a chaingun, or a flak involved. The rocket typically only needs the heavy ammo to be effective at actually hitting, sure its not "max damage" at point plank but every shot hitting is a good compensation. The chaingun is the same with heavy rounds being the most useful and charge rounds being usefull when you are close enough to make every shot hit. But still heavy rounds is the universal here. Flak is amost the same with explosive rounds being the more annoying round to use. But still heavy rounds will do you good to remove the spread. So any good engineer will carry heavy rounds and be nearly as good as a gunner.
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There is already a thread about the general utility of gunners or lack there of:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,410.0.html (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,410.0.html)
I can understand the frustration of facing a ship with an incredibly competent engineering crew. Especially when you hit level 3 and are no longer eligible for the newbie games. As others say it is possible to destroy a ship that has gone turtle mode, it just requires a bit of coordination. Try flying with high level captains and watch how they tackle these situations, or watch the COG's replays if none are online. It would be easier on everyone if you learn the existing meta instead of asking the developers to do such a drastic change to the game's mechanics.
Also if you can't crack a ship by your self. Cripple it as much as possible and move on to its team mate. There is a reason why there are no 1v1 maps (anymore). Captains who try and 1v1 ships instead of working with their teammate tend to loose the moment they face a coordinated team regardless of how good their piloting skill and crew are.
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No matter how many people are camping a hull, the armor will go down in the normal amount of time. Even with 3 people rebuilding the hull of a Pyra it will still stay down for almost 2 seconds. With many weapons, this narrow window is more than long enough to get the kill, but if for some reason the timing is off and you don't make the kill in the narrow window, the armor can be broken again with an additional 4 seconds of chaingun opening that window again.
Even if you have to break the armor 3 times, the enemy is still not shooting back at you and you are still able to make the kill within 30 seconds. This is actually why you will almost never see a Cogs team rebuilding the hull with more than 2 people and rarely with more than one. Camping the hull is not nearly as good of a defense as killing your opponent first.
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Please dont try to think you know how I have been playing or who I have been playing with by my rank, its misleading and also incorrect to do. Ive played with level 8-10 captains on standard pyramidans to crazy flamer goldfish designs. Ive seen more than enough normal time to know this issue because its not that prevalent in noob town (noob town is just ragequits and captians who dont fly their own ships). Anyway aside from "win builds" anything else has an extremely hard time dealing with turtling. To the point where your "high level captains" you claim I dont fly with just move on or get hit by their teammate. Only so that we can end up doing the same turtle maneuver a few feet away from the ship we just beached. Ironic huh? Its far too effective and drags out games longer than they should be. The unrepairable hull is there to prevent constant survival but the speed that the armor can be rebuilt is almost a shield of its own. As where the only real counter is a chaingun/flack combo which is already absurdly effective as is.
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Look, here's the thing.
As I said earlier, if you have three people camping the hull, you will invariably lose the engagement. You don't have anybody firing the guns, so you're not hurting the other ship at all. Three engineers can only keep the ship together for so long, and eventually you will die. How the hell is a strategy that makes sure that you won't land any kills overpowered? Simple answer: it's not. It's delaying your death, but it's damn well guaranteeing it.
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Please read all of it before posting, as I said just earlier your not going to get kills, your going to be a time sink until the other person comes along and attacks your attacker. The game is not entirely 1v1s most games involve atleast 2v2 so you may not get a kill in this instance but you wont give a kill neither, and the other team will just sit there vulnerable attempting to kill you until your teammate finally comes along and returns the favor. Im far from the only one who thinks that the game ends too often in stalemate ragequits do to this issue. And id really appreciate it if I got less "Im an old player your just a noob I know whats best" mentality in terms of feedback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3N20k0zlgw
*because its funny yet sadly true in some ways*
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Please read all of it before posting
I did.
your not going to get kills, your going to be a time sink until the other person comes along and attacks your attacker
What's preventing the teammate of the attacker from getting there at the same time? If there's a ship that's sitting there without attacking at all, both ships are going to see it as an easy target and attack it. No amount of rebuilding will keep it alive against double ship focus. It won't take very much time at all to kill.
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What's preventing the teammate of the attacker from getting there at the same time? If there's a ship that's sitting there without attacking at all, both ships are going to see it as an easy target and attack it. No amount of rebuilding will keep it alive against double ship focus. It won't take very much time at all to kill.
I have yet to see that in normal games, maybe in the pro end of the game sure, I bet its no problem with built teams and parties, but pros and pubs are too different birds please try to relate. only a small percentage of the game is pros the rest is pubs, and this is an issue with the pubs is typically ships will set off on 1v1, get locked in turtle mode, then the enemies teammate will see you sitting there pounding them and set course for you with your ally in toe. After he pounds you, his ally repairs and leaves, and the vicious cycle continues. Usually ending in whole teams ragequitting after 1 hour of gameplay.
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What's preventing the teammate of the attacker from getting there at the same time? If there's a ship that's sitting there without attacking at all, both ships are going to see it as an easy target and attack it. No amount of rebuilding will keep it alive against double ship focus. It won't take very much time at all to kill.
I have yet to see that in normal games, maybe in the pro end of the game sure, I bet its no problem with built teams and parties, but pros and pubs are too different birds please try to relate. only a small percentage of the game is pros the rest is pubs, and this is an issue with the pubs is typically ships will set off on 1v1, get locked in turtle mode, then the enemies teammate will see you sitting there pounding them and set course for you with your ally in toe. After he pounds you, his ally repairs and leaves, and the vicious cycle continues. Usually ending in whole teams ragequitting after 1 hour of gameplay.
So this is only a problem when the enemy comes and your ally doesn't?
It seems to me that hull camping isn't the problem, in that case. Getting 2v1ed messes you up regardless of whether anybody's tanking or not.
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Please read all of it before posting, as I said just earlier your not going to get kills, your going to be a time sink until the other person comes along and attacks your attacker. The game is not entirely 1v1s most games involve atleast 2v2 so you may not get a kill in this instance but you wont give a kill neither, and the other team will just sit there vulnerable attempting to kill you until your teammate finally comes along and returns the favor. Im far from the only one who thinks that the game ends too often in stalemate ragequits do to this issue. And id really appreciate it if I got less "Im an old player your just a noob I know whats best" mentality in terms of feedback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3N20k0zlgw
*because its funny yet sadly true in some ways*
its not that people are saying they know whats best. they are saying that it is impossible to keep a hull up indefinitely if the armor keeps going down. earlier you said people will just sit on the sand and keep the hull up, while it is possible to keep it up for a while, the math does not work for indefinite hull repairing.
When the armor goes down, it takes X amount of time to get it back up no matter how many you have repairing it, that window of perma hull health damage may be small but it is there. if someone is sitting on the sand as you said earlier they are taking constant damage. that means during that small opening some perma hull damage is being done. if that cycle continues eventually the ship will just run out of health even without any outside input of damage.
that is the reason people suggested you shoot their baloon ( so they cant get up and eventually die) or have your teammate attack the same target as you (so more damage can be done during the perma hull windows or so the perma hull windows can come around more often.)
I dont think people are trying to be rude, I'm just not sure people are understanding what you mean because the math doesn't add up.
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We are a small community Pros and Pubs are essentially the same thing. I have accidentally run into most of the people who fly in the COGs at some point or other. You do address a valid issue with pub games breaking into a series of 1v1 engagements, but that is due to poor leadership and coordination from the captain's side. 2v1 encounters usually end in under a minute via death or disengagement. If both teams bring sub optimal builds things can last longer, but that is what the Surrender button is for.
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Please read all of it before posting, as I said just earlier your not going to get kills, your going to be a time sink until the other person comes along and attacks your attacker. The game is not entirely 1v1s most games involve atleast 2v2 so you may not get a kill in this instance but you wont give a kill neither, and the other team will just sit there vulnerable attempting to kill you until your teammate finally comes along and returns the favor. Im far from the only one who thinks that the game ends too often in stalemate ragequits do to this issue. And id really appreciate it if I got less "Im an old player your just a noob I know whats best" mentality in terms of feedback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3N20k0zlgw
*because its funny yet sadly true in some ways*
its not that people are saying they know whats best. they are saying that it is impossible to keep a hull up indefinitely if the armor keeps going down. earlier you said people will just sit on the sand and keep the hull up, while it is possible to keep it up for a while, the math does not work for indefinite hull repairing.
When the armor goes down, it takes X amount of time to get it back up no matter how many you have repairing it, that window of perma hull health damage may be small but it is there. if someone is sitting on the sand as you said earlier they are taking constant damage. that means during that small opening some perma hull damage is being done. if that cycle continues eventually the ship will just run out of health even without any outside input of damage.
that is the reason people suggested you shoot their baloon ( so they cant get up and eventually die) or have your teammate attack the same target as you (so more damage can be done during the perma hull windows or so the perma hull windows can come around more often.)
I dont think people are trying to be rude, I'm just not sure people are understanding what you mean because the math doesn't add up.
Well the math from what ive seen is 3 players, pipe wrenches have 4 rebuild (only 1 shy of the wrench). Which on average from experience ive seen the hull back up in 1.5 seconds. Most guns take longer than 1.5 seconds to reload. Especially the manticore and most all low deck guns you can put on the Galleon. So unless you are running the win combo (chain+flack) there is very little room for error in terms of hitting the actual hull for damage. The ship may take constant damage on the sand but its barely noticeable given how quickly the armor comes back on line. So "eventually" yes they will die if left unhelped but that eventually I have seen first hand go on for 10 minutes. 10 minutes is a lot of time for their ally to see you standing in place and come attack you.
Alot of the games in pubs end in rage-quit stalemates or 1 sided victories, that much I hope is understood by the community. If not then we have a long bridge to gap. If they do understand that much then why? Maybe half of it is incompetent players sure, but whats the other half? Surely this is a prevalent issue and all is not well and dandy as some here want us to believe. This is what I frequently experience and why I have seen teams I have played with leave.
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Ok so Kinesis, essentially what I am seeing, is that this is way more about coordination, rather than tanking. If you are running a hwacha build on your galleon, then you need to tell your gunners to wait until they see the "hull destroyed" message in the upper left hand corner... with just a little bit of accuracy, you can kill any ship with one volley and no amount of tanking will save you. This is something I see all the time (even among lvl 8+ gunners)... Same goes for if the enemy's ally starts barreling in on you. If your ally just is not there, or close enough to help, then there is generally a lack of communication (which leads to uncoordinated gameplay)
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Don't take this the wrong way, we (or at least most of us) are takling from experience, and wish to help you and others that have same issues.
So caled "Pros" aka. COGs players modstly play in random matches. And we play literaly hundets and thousands of games. If we ever ever get up against such enemy and don't have such gat/flat or gat/mortar combo becouse we have a ship that is not good at that (like Goldfish) or are packing some wiert experimentary build and seed enemy is no shoting back or dying, we either try to get ally to help us or faling that we go and focus on the enemy that is actualy a threat and kill that one (sooner or later we'll either get 5 kills on the other enemy, the turtle will stop turtling and we'll kill it or we'll manage to gang up on it. If you get killed by the ally of the turtle while you are trying to kill the turtle that is your capatain's error (not to mention the error of the ally that allowed that to happen in the first place - unless ally was actualy asking for help and your captain ignored him).
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i agree with the idea, but not the implementation. the main problem is, an engineer and even a pilot can be an effective gunner (e.g gungineer), but a gunner cant be a pilot or an engineer. that speaks to the flexibility and utility (or lack of) in some classes.
imo these are the best options
1- make some items class-exclusive, ie. only pilots can choose claw, only eng can choose mallet
2- give gunner more options (being able to use spyglass while sitting on a weapon, a new tool that feeds a new clip onto a weapon someone is using so the subsequent reload is quicker, not only bullets but more gun attachments like 2x scope, variable zoom, a more defined crosshair sights, infared sights through cloud etc.) taking some ideas from cod unfortunately, but they've ironed out all attachment ideas thruout the years
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Only the guy on helm can use pilot tools with the exception of spyglass as it is. And if you have someone that is not a pilot on the helm then there is something very wrong. Pilot's tools are life savers, and the 1 pilot tools other 2 classes have just doesen't cut it.
As for other ideas I like them with the exception of infrared sights, couse clouds are essential to hiding from long range and completely make flare-guns completely useless.
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So this is only a problem when the enemy comes and your ally doesn't?
It seems to me that hull camping isn't the problem, in that case. Getting 2v1ed messes you up regardless of whether anybody's tanking or not.
I agree with you that hull tanking is plain stupid from the way he pointed it out. The big issue here IMO ain't about that, but about the fact that multiple ammo types aren't needed often enough to be more useful than engineer tools. This bring the gunner class to a state where it becomes an almost useless class in a ship where you could use 3 engineers instead of 2 + 1 gunner (I said ALMOST, so please don't bring out specific situations, because both sides have these). If you read earlier posts on page 1 by "Arthem White", "Bauldr" and "Mattilald Anguisad", you can see different approaches towards the issue that make a lot of sense. I like gunners and IMO some guns have a big use in multiple ammo types, yet I must agree that a lot of times those extra ammo types have nothing on the engineer tools.
TL:DR
Stop focusing on the hull tanking thing, it's not the problem, the problem is that having multiple ammo types is just not useful enough.
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The reason why we are focusing on the hull tanking is due to the fact that there is already a discussion on the effectiveness of a gunner (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,410.0.html)... don't get me wrong, I'm all for a buff to the gunner if that's decided, but I don't particularly see the need to. I have a loadout of ammo for every gun I fire, and I use every one of them in a match (with the exception of harpoon and flare)... I even use loch... That's all I'm going to say on this matter :)
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Could we do something like the pilot tools? For example we could have a tool that increases the turn radius of the weapon or the angle it can be aimed?
Very good idea.
That way others class will have to chose between special ammo or tools while gunner will chose ammo+tools
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I'm pretty sure the reason why gunners don't have tools that change gun stats outside of ammo is for balance. It's so easy to break the balance of guns by even giving them bigger arcs.
If you read the other post regarding gunners, you will see that I am of the minority who think that gunners are perfectly fine and need no buff to make them useful. I say it in the nicest way possible, but there is a huge difference in a good gunner vs an average gunner. And the ammo he takes is a direct extension of what gun is his.
I believe I put a list up in that thread as well showing that all guns can benefit from multiple ammo types besides just the one an engie can bring. The key to remember is that regardless of the role of your gunner, you want him to always be shooting. The gunner role will serve you much better than an engineer in that position.
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TL:DR
Stop focusing on the hull tanking thing, it's not the problem, the problem is that having multiple ammo types is just not useful enough.
I know, I was explaining to Kinesis why it isn't an issue at all. Had I had a choice, that discussion wouldn't have occurred om the first place.
We have many, many other threads to discuss the problems with gunners anyways.