Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: BlackenedPies on April 06, 2015, 05:58:17 pm
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Heavy clip is good on the heavy carronade because it turns the shotgun effect into high velocity straight shots.
Heavy clip reduces clip size by 25% but does not affect guns with 2 shots like the heavy carronade. The ability to shoot two perfectly accurate shots with no downside is not balanced.
To compensate for the clip reduction the ROF should be reduced by 25% when using heavy clip on the heavy carronade, and possibly the other guns with 2 shots per clip.
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That's actually a good point. Every 2-shot-clip weapon has this problem, which is H. Carronade, H. Flak and Merc.
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Aside from BlackenedPies posting multiple threads to discuss nerfing the Heavy Carronade, there's something I find funnier; it's just gonna get stronger with Stamina. :D
And no, I still don't think it needs a nerf. Several ways to deal with it: Drogue Chute, out-range and disable it, out-maneuver with Squid, brawl head-on with Pyra, and/or have your ally double team it.
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Aside from BlackenedPies posting multiple threads to discuss nerfing the Heavy Carronade, there's something I find funnier; it's just gonna get stronger with Stamina. :D
And no, I still don't think it needs a nerf. Several ways to deal with it: Drogue Chute, out-range and disable it, out-maneuver with Squid, brawl head-on with Pyra, and/or have your ally double team it.
The point is that with heavy you get a very generous range to work with- almost enough to pop a munker from a harmless distance actually - for a weapon that is supposed to be limited by range and primarily used against balloons, yet disables components faster and sometimes more efficiently than a hwacha; Which requires a knowledgable gunner to begin with.
It carries the same downsides but just becomes even better at what it's good at than originally intended. Even light is balanced in the simple fact that you cant oneclip balloons with it.
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@ZanC
This is my second post regarding the heavy carro and is specifically addressing the use of heavy clip.
The carro's weakness at range is due to the shotgun effect. The ability to only need one ammo type for all ranges makes gunners an utterly useless liability. The ability to use the only necessary ammo without penalty is not balanced.
By reducing the ROF while using heavy clip, gunners would actually have a benefit rather than being a major liability. Gungineers would switch to regular ammo at close range to eliminate dps penalty, like they normally do.
Fish excel at 1v1 disable. It can be said that hwatcha with burst is similarly effective but that requires much higher skill, closer range, and a complement weapon to be effective.
The heavy carro only needs heavy clip. Heavy clip eliminates the fundamental weakness of the carro. The dps penalty does not apply which makes gunners useless. That is not balanced.
The heavy carronade is universally recognized as unbalanced in pub matches. Heavy clip is incredibly powerful on the heavy carro and does not reduce dps like it's supposed to. I'm suggesting a simple solution to reduce dps and help balance. Another more controversial option would be reducing damage per clip by 25%.
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I would raher change the guns fire rate than have heavy clip have a rate of fire reduction. It is already hard to hit these little guns and engines with heavy clip Hwacha from a decent distance, a reduced fire rate might not do it well.
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I would raher change the guns fire rate than have heavy clip have a rate of fire reduction. It is already hard to hit these little guns and engines with heavy clip Hwacha from a decent distance, a reduced fire rate might not do it well.
The suggestion is only for a rof reduction with heavy clip on the heavy carronade and possibly the other 2 shot guns. The purpose is to simulate the dps reduction which should be inherently present when using heavy clip. Affecting rof is not the only possible solution but it seems simple and balanced.
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My suggestion is still to give heavy a 95% spread reduction instead of 100%.
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My suggestion is still to give heavy a 95% spread reduction instead of 100%.
^This. Although, I'd test it a bit first to see how big of a difference that makes. We might still see all H.Carronade Buckshots hitting the balloon at max range, which would still be a bit unbalanced.
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Watch the last dev fireside. Eric thinks its fine, condescendingly shrugged at the statement of it being OP. Good luck changing his mind, not that he cares or reads this stuff.
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Usually I try to keep an open mind, but I really don't see the Heavy Carronade changing any time soon.
I am just a beginner pilot but I hardly have any trouble with Heavy Carronades or Blenderfishes in pubs. Even against experienced lv45s piloting Blenders I can hold my ground and win; I just take note of its weaknesses and prepare to abuse them.
My suggestion is still to give heavy a 95% spread reduction instead of 100%.
Slightly reducing the spread reduction of Heavy Clip is the most viable suggestion so far. I like this idea because it will still be strong against ships with a large Balloon, but will make it harder to pop smaller Balloons. This also partly addresses the argument of the Hvy Carro being too easy to use.
The biggest problem with this change is that it will weaken the Hwacha's mid range sniping ability too much, which is one of its core features and gameplay.
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That's a valid point about. I really want the 95% tested to see its impact.
I think, even with a 95%, firing Hwacha in burst (instead of barrage) will be accurate enough.
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Why not just make Heavy clip reduce the shot spread by 100% by every other weapon but H Carro?
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Why not just make Heavy clip reduce the shot spread by 100% by every other weapon but H Carro?
Or carros in general.
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After I ran some calculations it doesn't seem like any change to the way heavy clip jitter reduction works will do the trick. I mean, it might do the trick but it will ruin other weapons that use it.
95% reduced jitter will mean a maximum jitter angle of 0.2 degrees on the heavy carronade when applied heavy - giving you a maximum spread of 1.5m at maximum range. due to the way that aoe secondary damage type works, and decreases linearly after the point of half the radius, at maximum range, with extreme end cases, you will be doing 86.7% of the damage on average at the center point of impact - which is still able to one shot destroy a heavy gun.
In addition to the still quite devastating damage, the carronade's heavy gun kill radius will be be increased from 2m to about 2.6m on average(so it actually makes it better).
(I am intentionally not talking about balloon killing and only the component destroying - more commonly heavy weapon destroying because only the aoe damage of the carronade, the shatter damage will get affected. Due to a spread at maximum range of 1.5m, any balloon will still be fully vulnerable to it, with slight exceptions with the pyramidion's balloon in various angles, that might cause some armor hits.)
Now for this change to be actually effective in the sense of taking away the carronade's extreme ability to snipe guns and or balloons with heavy clip, one will be forced to decrease jitter by 70-80%.
Right now with the proposed 95%, not only that it doesn't do the trick, it is already starting to ruin the hwacha with heavyclip - you will have 6.25m of spread at maximum range, and with only 7m of aoe radius and the way aoe damage behaves, you are starting to lose quite a bit of damage. Decreasing the spread even more is simply not an option because it will ruin everything that uses heavyclip. Concentrate on the carronade, it is the problem, not the ammo type.
Also, heavyclip exceptions for carronade are quite a dumb solution in my opinion. If you have to make exception for certain weapons you already know something is stupid in the weapon itself, and you're just trying to find a way around it. If you do it, might as well do it right and change the weapon itself.
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I still like reducing balloon health and the flechette modifiers on balloons by the same amount. That way, the balloon is easier to rebuild and takes the same amount of time to destroy
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I still like reducing balloon health and the flechette modifiers on balloons by the same amount. That way, the balloon is easier to rebuild and takes the same amount of time to destroy
That has always been my favorite option but I'm skeptical that any major changes will happen.
Also, heavyclip exceptions for carronade are quite a dumb solution in my opinion. If you have to make exception for certain weapons you already know something is stupid in the weapon itself, and you're just trying to find a way around it. If you do it, might as well do it right and change the weapon itself.
Thanks for the excellent calculations as always, I figured it wouldn't make much difference on the carro and more so on other guns.
Heavy clip heavy carronade is broken but there isn't enough impetus for change. I think that the gun itself needs a fix but I figured adding the missing penalty to the only necessary ammo would be more likely to be adopted.
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I should have mentioned removing some or all of the shot reduction as well as the 95%. That would give back to Hwatcha and make it more viable on other guns, with no added benefit to heavy carro.
I also have supported reduced balloon health (as well as ship specific HP like armor and hull) and reducing all modifiers to match. Currently, damage vs balloon is:
Balloon health: 1200
| Damage type | Modifier towards Balloon |
| Flechette | 1.8 |
| Impact | 1.8 |
| Fire | 1.5 |
| Explosive | 0.25 |
| Shatter | 0.2 |
| Piercing | 0.2 |
If the balloon had 75% current heath, the modifiers could be as follows.
Balloon Health: 900
| Damage type | Modifier towards Balloon |
| Flechette | 1.35 |
| Impact | 1.35 |
| Fire | 1.125 |
| Explosive | 0.19* |
| Shatter | 0.15 |
| Piercing | 0.15 |
*rounded up from .1875
*edit* OR, since the repair calculations are different for each part type, reduce the Part Type Multipliers for the tools.
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What if Heavy Clip, instead of reducing clip size, reduced range by a flat amount? This would make it a greater drawback on short-range weapons like the carronades and not as great on the hwacha. -100 would be a decrease of less than 10% on a hwacha, but would reduce the Hellhound's range by nearly 25% (just as an example).
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What if Heavy Clip, instead of reducing clip size, reduced range by a flat amount? This would make it a greater drawback on short-range weapons like the carronades and not as great on the hwacha. -100 would be a decrease of less than 10% on a hwacha, but would reduce the Hellhound's range by nearly 25% (just as an example).
Reducing range would have the biggest effect on the gat. Heavy clip gat is used for increasing effectiveness at long range.
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Heavy and Lesmok are the two long range ammo types, just from different ends. Lesmok literally increases range while heavy increases accuracy which indirectly increases effective range.
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- Carronade arcs reduced slightly
- Heavy Carronade range reduced slightly
- Heavy Clip now reduces recoil by 95% (was 100%)
After I ran some calculations it doesn't seem like any change to the way heavy clip jitter reduction works will do the trick. I mean, it might do the trick but it will ruin other weapons that use it.
95% reduced jitter will mean a maximum jitter angle of 0.2 degrees on the heavy carronade when applied heavy - giving you a maximum spread of 1.5m at maximum range. due to the way that aoe secondary damage type works, and decreases linearly after the point of half the radius, at maximum range, with extreme end cases, you will be doing 86.7% of the damage on average at the center point of impact - which is still able to one shot destroy a heavy gun.
In addition to the still quite devastating damage, the carronade's heavy gun kill radius will be be increased from 2m to about 2.6m on average(so it actually makes it better).
(I am intentionally not talking about balloon killing and only the component destroying - more commonly heavy weapon destroying because only the aoe damage of the carronade, the shatter damage will get affected. Due to a spread at maximum range of 1.5m, any balloon will still be fully vulnerable to it, with slight exceptions with the pyramidion's balloon in various angles, that might cause some armor hits.)
Now for this change to be actually effective in the sense of taking away the carronade's extreme ability to snipe guns and or balloons with heavy clip, one will be forced to decrease jitter by 70-80%.
Right now with the proposed 95%, not only that it doesn't do the trick, it is already starting to ruin the hwacha with heavyclip - you will have 6.25m of spread at maximum range, and with only 7m of aoe radius and the way aoe damage behaves, you are starting to lose quite a bit of damage. Decreasing the spread even more is simply not an option because it will ruin everything that uses heavyclip. Concentrate on the carronade, it is the problem, not the ammo type.
Also, heavyclip exceptions for carronade are quite a dumb solution in my opinion. If you have to make exception for certain weapons you already know something is stupid in the weapon itself, and you're just trying to find a way around it. If you do it, might as well do it right and change the weapon itself.
lol at 95%.
Slighty reduced arcs mean 20 up and 10 down from 30 up and 15 down.
Range from 425 to 375.
What happend to the whole balloon damage modifiers solution?
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What happend to the whole balloon damage modifiers solution?
It was probably too much of a reasonable solution.
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What happend to the whole balloon damage modifiers solution?
It was probably too much of a reasonable solution.
Better nerf Dementio for doubting our too powerful nerfing techniques.
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stuff
more stuff
random stuff
What happens in devapp, stays in devapp. Wrong forum and thread.
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stuff
more stuff
random stuff
What happens in devapp, stays in devapp. Wrong forum and thread.
Sorry I thought it was kinda fitting to put in muse's solution to whatever has been discussed in this thread for 2 pages now.
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Sorry I thought it was kinda fitting to put in muse's solution to whatever has been discussed in this thread for 2 pages now.
Agreed.
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(Stat changes may be tweaked slightly more today, but this is what's up at the moment of this writing.)
No, it is not fitting. It is a bit of a tantrum and lashing out, not productive feedback. [exaggeration] "OMG this is what Muse is doing NOW in devapp! *rage*"[/exaggeration] is not appropriate or helpful in or out of the proper forum, but especially out.
Also, these changes likely came from emails sent to them, not this thread. I know the test changes I suggested in emails are being tested now.
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I still like reducing balloon health and the flechette modifiers on balloons by the same amount. That way, the balloon is easier to rebuild and takes the same amount of time to destroy
doing this will result in heavyclip light carronade being OP too. Then you'd have to nerf that as well.
Then lumberjack is sure to follow.
If you said all 3 in the first place I would have taken this idea much more seriously, as it showed you actually gave proper thought about it.
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Since the next patch is not terribly close, most of what in dev ap is stuff being tested, not necessarily eminent changes. Therefore a healthy degree of seperation between actual testers and people theory crafting is healthy.
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I still like reducing balloon health and the flechette modifiers on balloons by the same amount. That way, the balloon is easier to rebuild and takes the same amount of time to destroy
doing this will result in heavyclip light carronade being OP too. Then you'd have to nerf that as well.
Then lumberjack is sure to follow.
If you said all 3 in the first place I would have taken this idea much more seriously, as it showed you actually gave proper thought about it.
I... Do you know how damage modifiers work?
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I guess he does not. Here are the charts again.
I also have supported reduced balloon health (as well as ship specific HP like armor and hull) and reducing all modifiers to match. Currently, damage vs balloon is:
Balloon health: 1200
| Damage type | Modifier towards Balloon |
| Flechette | 1.8 |
| Impact | 1.8 |
| Fire | 1.5 |
| Explosive | 0.25 |
| Shatter | 0.2 |
| Piercing | 0.2 |
If the balloon had 75% current heath, the modifiers could be as follows.
Balloon Health: 900
| Damage type | Modifier towards Balloon |
| Flechette | 1.35 |
| Impact | 1.35 |
| Fire | 1.125 |
| Explosive | 0.19* |
| Shatter | 0.15 |
| Piercing | 0.15 |
*rounded up from .1875
The ONLY thing that would change at all gameplaywise would be that the balloon could be repaired in 25% less time. That is the opposite of 'OP'.