Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Indreams on February 24, 2015, 09:44:50 am
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New Gun! Minotaur Heavy Cannon! Let's discuss!
From Patch Notes:
New support heavy weapon that knocks back enemy ships! Use to help your friendly airships keeps enemy airships out of gun arc or to prevent rams. Has arming time, Primary Damage is piercing, Secondary AoE is shatter. Fires like a Carronade where each ‘buckshot’ causes knockback. Knockback is equally distributed across both Primary and Secondary damages. The farther from a ship’s center of mass you shoot, the more ‘spin’ you will add to that ship.
What do you think?
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I see that it is a piercing heavy weapon, with crazy good arcs. The knock back isn't good for pushing the ship away from you, but rather for spinning the enemy ship. It's a pretty good support gun.
It does have some really wide arcs. I don't know how that works into the game yet.
Pretty good range. I think it's raycast, so really easy to hit with.
It does decent armor strip. I do believe it outstrips an enemy engineer's hull repair.
It works great on a Spire. Doesn't seem to work great on a goldfish.
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Works like a carro. Heavy and greased work well. New meta it's pretty OP.
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Works like a carro. Heavy and greased work well. New meta it's pretty OP.
Yup.
Yet still some say its UP because it is not a standalone weapon :/
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Bullfish new meta?
Minotaur 'till armor is down, keeping them out of arc by spinning them, claw turn fire side mortar, ded?
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Bullfish in paritan rumble, Bulleon on Labyrinth.
Dual at dawn, either or.
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How are the down arcs? Blenderfish/Bullfish double team?
Blender pops, Bull fires from above to artificially stomp?
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The piercing damage is pretty negligible. It's a decent support weapon, and that's about all
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You guys seem super excited about it being an OP weapon. Have you actually tried it with a spire or fish against an experienced crew? Would you really take it to a tournament other than for paritan?
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It's a good thing I fly casual then, isn't it?
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You guys seem super excited about it being an OP weapon. Have you actually tried it with a spire or fish against an experienced crew? Would you really take it to a tournament other than for paritan?
Depends, certainly not until after its been tested well against different ships, but I'd sooner take a Bullfish over Flakfish, possibly support on a galleons brawl side.
However a guns balance is not best checked by if its used in competitive or not, competitive is how you work out the best load outs and counters.
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You guys seem super excited about it being an OP weapon. Have you actually tried it with a spire or fish against an experienced crew? Would you really take it to a tournament other than for paritan?
I would take spire or galleon even on open maps.
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Heavy Clip Minotaur will wreck in long range, sp Spires and Galleons actually will get shot at less. Junkers and Mobulas will very likely have the most trouble in long range if they cannot destroy the gun quickly enough.
In close range it will very likely not be as effective in long range, but if ignored it will screw up the enemy.
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One Minotaur can lock down a ship preventing them from ever shooting. Importantly, it also makes it near impossible to aim precise weapons. I'll test it more later but from what I've seen it's highly effective in the hands of a good gunner. The downward arcs are excessive and I've watched it completely lock down ships on its own.
I don't think it will be used much in competitive because spires are too risky, not effective enough on fish, and it lacks dps for galleons. If it is used in competitive I suspect it will be seen on a Galleon in tandem with other weapons.
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Heavy Clip Minotaur will wreck in long range, sp Spires and Galleons actually will get shot at less. Junkers and Mobulas will very likely have the most trouble in long range if they cannot destroy the gun quickly enough.
In close range it will very likely not be as effective in long range, but if ignored it will screw up the enemy.
Exactly what I wanted to say... I think minotaur is more effective in long range than in short. You will have hard time play a snipe battle if enemy has minotaur on you. I agree, mobula will have hard time with this as well as other ships.
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I rather imagine this gun on galleon.
Step one:
Shoot Minotaur to the side of a pyramidion.
Step two:
Fuck up their engines
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I rather imagine this gun on galleon.
Step one:
Shoot Minotaur to the side of a pyramidion.
Step two:
Fuck up their engines
HWACHA/MINOTAUR NEW META
That actually sounds amazing.
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On crazy king, bullfish is very good. It's like a better version of flakfish. Good support for ally ships, and fast enough to get to capture points.
And it's really really easy to shot.
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Ok, after I played against Spud Nick and his BullSpire I changed my mind about Minotaur.
My opinion now is:
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! $@#%^&%*&%^%$@! !!!! - and then he swore hideously
This should be called TrollHammer, not minotaur. Although I see a reference to the power of bullfart.
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I rather imagine this gun on galleon.
Step one:
Shoot Minotaur to the side of a pyramidion.
Step two:
Fuck up their engines
HWACHA/MINOTAUR NEW META
That actually sounds amazing.
I have even better idea.
Hwacha + minotaur + artemis on the side of galleon.
Artemis for correcting the engines or guns, OR FOR KILLING.
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Hmm... Minotaur is really annoying to pilot against.
But... it doesn't do much against a charging ship b/c
1.) a charging ship is facing you. Unless the charging ship is a mobula, it'll be quite difficult to hit in a way to turn the enemy ship.
2.) a charging ship is probably using Kerosene or Moonshine. They will not turn.
It's hell to fly a sniper ship against a spire. It's not that hard to fly a close range ship towards the enemy. I'd say, against a charging ship, a good mine launcher is better.
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I find It's best when used with spanner mallet buff heavy on a long range ship. It prevents you from being shot and can 1 shot disable any component.
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I find It's best when used with spanner mallet buff heavy on a long range ship. It prevents you from being shot and can 1 shot disable any component.
Yea, heavy minotaur is ridiculously accurate, and fast. It's a easier counter to sniper ships than a lumberjack.
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What happens if you shoot down or up at a ship? Will it push that ship lower/higher? Or is it only horizontal push?
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What happens if you shoot down or up at a ship? Will it push that ship lower/higher? Or is it only horizontal push?
That's a good and important question. But also..
Does anybody think that Minotaur isn't quite complete yet?
It looks and sounds much like the lumberjack. The projectile is invisible. Guns doesn't seem to have any arcs. And the hover-over description goes out of the description box.
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From my tests from either being captain of a ship with the Minotaur or actively watching the shots. It seems like a instant shot.
Heavy Clip is great for getting a solid consistent hit. Burst is great for breaking everything. Lesmok seems to have a better time with 'spinning' the ships. Greased, higher fire rate and consistent hits. Have not tested Charged or Incendiary. All in all its a pretty effective support weapon. The description says it good with deflecting rams i would say so but only if your trying to deflect a ram on an allies ship.
Range wise with the .1875s arming time its for long range especially, the moment a ship is seen by an ally and you got a clear shot i did not find the max range for the Minotaur. But again its is truly only effective when your supporting your team mates.
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This is the part where I ask, again, for tracers on all guns that do not have them, mino and carronade that is.
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This is the part where I ask, again, for tracers on all guns that do not have them, mino and carronade that is.
I do agree.
On the note of the up and down factor for the mino, it does indeed knock about the airship in many directions. Including going up and down considering that it basically has a 60-75 degree arc up and down.
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So if you were to hit say a goldfish on the front end, on top, on the left side, would the goldfish go down, back, and spin to the right? That sounds like a lot of stuff for a gunner and pilot to cope with, as far as trying to keep arc.
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From my tests from either being captain of a ship with the Minotaur or actively watching the shots. It seems like a instant shot.
Heavy Clip is great for getting a solid consistent hit. Burst is great for breaking everything. Lesmok seems to have a better time with 'spinning' the ships. Greased, higher fire rate and consistent hits. Have not tested Charged or Incendiary. All in all its a pretty effective support weapon. The description says it good with deflecting rams i would say so but only if your trying to deflect a ram on an allies ship.
Range wise with the .1875s arming time its for long range especially, the moment a ship is seen by an ally and you got a clear shot i did not find the max range for the Minotaur. But again its is truly only effective when your supporting your team mates.
It has a speed of 800 meters/second with max range of 1800.
Like a carronade, it has no burst effect so the only effect burst has is increasing clip size and decreasing ROF. Like a carronade, lesmok isn't particularly useful due to the spread. I agree with greased for close range. Charged isn't very useful because the amount of damage doesn't change amount of push, and incendiary has a chance to start only about one fire (20% X 5 particles). Unless you plan on consistently using it close range, heavy clip is the only necessary ammo.
I have used it a lot today and buff heavy seems the way to go. It's a very effective long range support weapon that acts as a defense against getting shot. So much so that it renders counters countered. No longer should a mobula scare your galleon or spire, just bring a Minotaur.
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This is the part where I ask, again, for tracers on all guns that do not have them, mino and carronade that is.
The Minotaur should have tracers. Because it's a long range weapon it would be nice to know where they are shooting you from.
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So i was not wrong on the basically instant. ~2.2 seconds to hit max range. Thats not enough time for anyone to dodge.
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Everyone is talking about the the gun, and I'm sitting here pleased as punch that my name caught on ^^
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ShadedExalt, nice naming. ;)
What are some of your builds now that you've had about a day to test the gun?
These are the ones I've seen or tried.
Bullfish
or should it be called minofish?
Basically a flakfish with the minotaur instead. Works just like a flakfish. Practically useless in 2v2 DM or King of the Hill, but amazing on Crazy King (have yet to see it on 3v3/4v4 DM). The Push is really useful for team fights. You can always engage with side flame or carronade (which ever one you prefer) if you have to.
MinoSpire
It needs a better name.
Amazing support ship. Gives Spire a different role than the glass cannon. Stand behind the ally and move the enemy ship any way you want it. Use a mine if you are confident; if they get close, mine behind them -> push them into it. Amazing on Paritan. Spire maneuvers around the skyscrapers pretty well. Push enemy ships into obstructions. Completely mess up enemy piloting.
Duo Mino Galleon
It needs not a better name, but a real name.
Have your ally fly a long range spire/mobula. Put mercury on the top deck. Keep the enemy ships completely away from your fleet. Do some crazy armor breaks. Great on the dunes and other open maps. Although... you'll wish you brought a hwacha instead when you get ambushed.
I think these were the most common today. I flied the Bullfish and MinoSpire myself. On one of the later matches, I flew a Close Range Spire (Hwacha Mortar Gat Gat) with great support from a MinoSpire. we won 5-null against two Galleons. Never have I killed so many Galleons with a Spire.
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Thanks!
Definitely Bullfish, the Spire can be Spinotaur, (Actually I'm naming mine The Longhorn), and Mino Gally is the Bulleon. (Or Gold Bullion, as I am naming mine.)
I haven't had a chance to use the Mino yet, but I plan to have a LOT of fun.
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Minotaur + hades and x2 light flaks demolish any other ship that tries to outfight you middle range.
But this makes me think
In the way of nerfing the minotaur, i think its arcs have to be tampered with.
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The Minotaur should have tracers. Because it's a long range weapon it would be nice to know where they are shooting you from.
This was one of the first things I asked for. Course I didn't know it was a big carronade at that time so I wanted some way to figuring out the arcs and range.
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Having flown with and against it for most of the day, I figured I'd put in my two cents as a pilot as far as which ships it seems to work well against.
Works well: Anything with both low mass and large surface areas. The longer or wider the ship, the easier it is to apply torque with the gun by hitting further out from the center. Mobula, Junker, Goldfish
Situational: If you get the jump with a good angle, you'll shut em down. If you don't, then the minotaur won't save you. Pyramidion, Galleon
Doesn't work well: Squid and Spire
I say it's situational against the pyra because if you hit it from the side out along its snout, you'll put it into a spin that it won't have recovered from with its rubbish angular acceleration by the time you've reloaded. If it's already charging straight in at you, though, you're not slowing it down and it's harder to shake it off course. If it crosses the arm time barrier, that's the end for the minotaur. The galleon is so heavy that you need a really good hit right out where the balloon meets the bowsprit to really give it pause. It's hard to shake a galleon up enough that it can't reorient arcs on you during your reload cycle.
As far as it being poor against the squid and spire, here's why I think that: Both ships are pretty tightly hunkered up around their centers of mass. The spire is especially hard to knock off facing because it doesn't really have anywhere to shoot that isn't right along its center of mass. The squid, while lighter, isn't terribly long and even a broadside shot is easily compensated for by the pilot, especially with buffed turning engines. If you catch the squid at low throttle, you'll rattle its cage. If you catch a squid at low throttle, though, that squid is either distracted killing something or is doing it wrong.
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In the way of nerfing the minotaur, i think its arcs have to be tampered with.
I like the horizontal arcs but in the current state the vertical is too much.
I would prefer to make it harder to shoot though. Right now it's very easy to snipe from extreme ranges. Add drop or reduce speed. Drop could make it very difficult so I'd prefer a speed reduction. 800 m/s is pretty fast (1790 mph). Some type of tracers would be nice but it would look kinda silly on a super fast straight particle. Laser gun?
Or remove the use of heavy clip. Heavy is what makes it so good. I like it and I'd prefer to keep it with heavy clip it's just too easy. The other long range heavy weapons require much more skill.
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Last night Captain Claus caused my squid and hardy crew a moment of "Game does not know how to react just yet... SPIN B****ES!"
We held the point on Anglean raiders, stationary when Patched Wizard calls out the fish is at our rear, so I Claw and turn to face fish, then we take a hit and the game freezes for 2 seconds, thinking its me lagging for some weird reason I hold on steering, then the game unfreezes, and we've not only span 360 in those 2 seconds but are still being span around (much to the lols of everyone in the match!)
Neusea kicks in as me and Claus have fun with it and our allies fight for the next point.
Total round time: 12 minutes (Anglean Raiders)
But omg it was funny, I want to see just how fast a squid can be spun by galleon double minotaur and two gunners timing the shots!
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Preface: Like a derp, I posted this in the feedback section.
Zill and I ran a few matches with the gun on his galleon. Had the gun on the 1 slot in the ship loadout.
I had a blast with the gun. The damage might seem low, but upping the damage would defeat the point of bringing it which is of course to throw off an enemy charge or barrage. While I did find the reload and fire rate slow and long, making it any bit faster would make this gun too good for it's main purpose.
However, I do see some concerns, the range can probably be nerfed a bit because it's insane to think it can hit at 1800m reliably with heavy clip. Note the range is a little over a 100m more than either lumberjack or heavy flak. Those guns have decent shell travel times and shell arcs. The minotaur is raycast and all you have to do are load heavy and figure out proper leads. I'd say give the gun range something short of hwachas.
Another concern is the potency of the gun's effect. My last match of the evening, I was able to save us from a charging gat/flak pyra by turning it 180 degrees allowing the engi to keep a fragment of hull armor and a strand of our remaining health. It took two shots to accomplish. Even one shot during my other matches could cause enough trouble.
My final concern is the gun's arc. I believe the arc needs to be nerfed too. They're 45 degrees in all directions. While I can assume those arcs were given because it gives the gunner greater freedom to aim the shots more precise to allow for maximum effect, I found it far too easy to throw off ships.
TL;DR = Love gun, but needs some nerfs.
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I think that gun offers newbies a low-barrier-to entry sniping gun that can help counter enemy sniping. I'd keep the speed of the projectile and range because newbies need an easy tactic to stand a chance at the long range game. It's a great balancing for skill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w)and gives teh newbs a chance against that lumberjack barrage.
I didn't have much problems going against it in a long-range galleon/spire with judicious use of moonshine, and the long reload time gave my guns a chance to retaliate in-between barrages. It can be countered (the push, at least) at range with some corrdination and good timing of pilot tools.
The best use of it that I found, however, was on a galleon paired with a lesmok artimis and a lumberjack. It offers a complete long-range disable unmatched--I think the disable galleon (dalleon?) is gonna be meta soon.
Speaking of meta, the spire is totally viable with this gun. This gun can keep the blenderfish off of you and throw off the opponent's aim.
That said I think the gun is way too manueverable with it's arcs. There needs to be SOME way to approach this gun, but the arcs are too wide and the turning speed too fast--I found there was simply no way to approach a spire without my goldfish being spun 'round.
The push may need a nerf, but I'd rather wait and see if tweaking the arcs can give that gun a small "blind spot" from which ships can close the distance--much like the carronade or artemis. I do think the disable power is waay to much. A buffed heavy can disable components in one shot. The wide arcs and pinpoint ranged accuracy make it all to easy to snipe out components.
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I played 2 games last night, one where I was using the Minotaur on a gold fish and one where a minotaur was hitting my Junker. I think the gun takes two ships out of the fight; the ship shooting it and the ship getting shot by it. For such a long range gun the vertical arcs on it are a huge.
I tried flying under a Bullfish and got pressed into the ground. The standard counter to long range harassment is to play the altitude game until you get inside arming range or outside gun arcs. This does not work very well against the Minotaur.
The gun feels like an attempt to give one team a way to disrupt snipers while brawling ships charge, but to sacrifice a medium gun mount for such a niche roll seems a bit excessive.
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It's like what the old merc sounded like. RIP mobula and every other spire gun
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The old merc was slightly worse in damage and no expanding hitbox with better arcs. How is that the same? Also, mercs still exist, and out range the mino. An easy hard counter.
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How to approach Minotaur? I suppose go right at it. When it shoots the front of your ship, you don't turn too much, with the exception of Mobula and Spire a little bit. Also, when charging, one usually has Kerosene or Moonshine activated and that helps beating the Minotaur. While charging at Minotaur one has to shoot back the Spires and Galleons too or else they will get destroyed before they get there.
Regardless, I emailed Muse about how I believe fire rate and/or reload speed should be slowed down a bit, to give teams some recovery time as getting away from the Minotaur by moving in these open areas is not easily done.
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I was talking about the arcs/range and anecdotes about how double merc was so powerful players had to agree not to use it.
I think the range difference with a merc is only about 400 meters. Staying at extreme ranges isn't always an option.
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Unless you're facing a bullfish, you will be gacing a slow ship with big targets. If you're savvy and either used terrain to get the first shot or moonshine to negate most of the minotaur effect, you'll be able to shoot the gun down and charge in to your hearts content. Personally, I prefer a lumberjack/minotaur merc galleon for long range "f**k you".
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With the wide turning arcs on the Minotaur I was thinking Galleon Quodfecta could be possible.
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With the wide turning arcs on the Minotaur I was thinking Galleon Quodfecta could be possible.
Galleon quadfecta is already possible without minotaurs
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Flare guns don't count.
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Flare guns don't count.
Artemis on the back.
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Does rear Artemis overlap with a side mounted manticore or carronade enough that a pilot could leave the helm long enough to shoot it secure in the knowledge that the main guns won't drift out of arc while he is away?
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The minotaur is an interesting gun. I don't use it that often, but I feel it's pretty good where it's at. I keep seeing mino-fish for some reason, and those are generally pointless. I've also gone against a full clan team using two galleons with one double minotaur and the other with one minotaur and a lumberjack. On paritan. While it was pretty frustrating having to deal with that many minotaurs, it wasn't a hopeless situation and ended up being a pretty close game (despite having a pub crew and an ally who never seemed to be in combat until it was time for him to be destroyed). With a competent crew and ally, it probably would have been a one sided match.
I think the minotaur is really nice for the galleon, allowing it to push ships back when they try to pin it down by popping the balloon over and over and staying out of the other gun arcs. I've also had some really fun and surprisingly effectively use of it on a spire.
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Does rear Artemis overlap with a side mounted manticore or carronade enough that a pilot could leave the helm long enough to shoot it secure in the knowledge that the main guns won't drift out of arc while he is away?
From my math, no, not really. The enemy ship will have to be quite far away from the Galleon to let all the arcs perfectly overlap...
You can still quadfecta with flare.
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moonshine
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Yes, you can get Hwacha/Flak in arc with an Artemis on the back. In first person, keep the target covered by the pipe on the balloon point.
Also, my sentiment is the same as before. Remove shatter. Make impact primary and piercing secondary. Adjust damage numbers to make it a halfway decent primary gun on a Goldfish at mid range. Piecing would be removed inside arming time, and make the numbers low enough that it would need some help killing the hull.
Maybe nerf heavy clip to 95% recoil reduction instead of 100%.
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That sounds like it might be a decent fighting gun, with the piercing damage. However, Muse already said that they wanted a support only weapon, so I doubt you will get the piercing damage.
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So after playing with it and against it, the thing is way overpowered with a good gungineer.
Right now, this gun does too many jobs well AND has the range. It disrupts movement and can wreck components, and has o.k. armor strip. I think muse needs to choose one role to focus on for this gun, and I think the accuracy or the delay or heavy clip has to be looked at to diminish this guns effectiveness at range, while still making it a useful tool to have.
My recommendations are to
A) Reduce the shatter damage (make it 2 shots buffed+heavy to disable a component)
B) Nerf Heavy Clip to decrease effectiveness at range.
C) Reduce Projectile speed (slightly)
D) Perhaps increase the "push" slightly to compensate for the reduced shatter.
By not touching the range of the weapon, this weapon's niche is still safe, and it still maintains it's effectiveness by throwing off an enemy's path as they close. The gun gets better as they get close, but still is useful to harass at range--a good utility weapon that's useful in most all situations.
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Too many heavy guns do shatter. Another is not needed. Get rid of shatter. Also, remove buff tool's buff to guns' DPS. Lots of problems solved at once.
These are the changes I would make.
Heavy clip does 95% reduction. That is a lot of spread left at long range. Increase clip size back close to standard -or- slightly increase the damage.
Tighten the default spread on the Hwacha a bit to compensate for the loss of laser missiles. This will make other rounds more a little more useful.
Reduce force a little on the Minotaur. As much fun as it is, juggling Galleons is wrong.
Add tracers.
Remove Shatter damage completely and find a good mix of impact and piercing. No need to knock guns out of arc AND destroy them with the same weapon. Even mines don't do that.
Again, REMOVE the buff effect for guns. It has been breaking the game since it was introduced.
edit: Actually, buff could add back the 5% recoil reduction, so heavy + buff could bring the recoil back to 0%. That is a good use of the buff hammer, and it would help out other ammo types as well.
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As the person who started this thread, I should gives you guys a heads up. This thread is in the gameplay section. Suggestions you guys are making are wonderful, and they will have a higher chance of getting read by Muse in the feedback section. :P
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Hell, even without the balance issues, I dislike the buffkit because fine tuning a gun would NOT affect damage. Affecting damage would mean you somehow buffed the ammo. Buffkit should improve the gun itself: Reload, recoil, accuracy, turn speed, fire rate, etc.
MUH IMMERSION
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They will have zero chance of getting read in feedback, actually. I am not here to talk to the devs. I do that through email. Just bouncing ideas off the community. Once you have your talks and get your minds set after talking it over with others, the best course is to send a well written, non-aggressive email with thoughtful suggestions.
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What happens when I hit a armed mine with the Minotaur? Does it move the mine?
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What happens when I hit a armed mine with the Minotaur? Does it move the mine?
Nothing happens unfortunately.
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What happens when I hit a armed mine with the Minotaur? Does it move the mine?
Nothing happens unfortunately.
Darn, that would have been fun.
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If it has to be nerfed, just nerf the firing speed. Don't touch anything else. This was the concept with the Sky Torpedo, which I know they took ideas from. It wasn't this fast firing gun, it was slow. Give the Mino a hell of a lot of kick then make it's firing rate slower. At the same time, it might need a bump up in another area but just make it slower.
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Just reporting what happened on a 3v3 match just now (won't express opinions, just saying the facts):
I was the gunner on a mino sniping spire with an average-to-good captain. We were against 3 close range ships (goldfish, junker, pyramidion) all with average leveled captains (~lv.20). On our side one captain didn't play at all (running in circles, drunk people you know).
With only greased loaded I missed (hit nothing) just 4 shots (I'm a bad gunner, just saying).
I could manage to put on idle (at quite far range, with greased ammo) 2-3 ships just hitting them once and skipping to the next one. rinse and repeat, while my crewmates were sniping them down.
A sniping spire could completely disable and snipe to death at least 2v1 without getting hit once, with a bad gunner such I am.
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On a 4v4 my gun were disabled twice and that stopped abruptly the perma-control thing. Just because minotaur cannot turn spires, gallions on the other end were are complete joke xD.