Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Hoja Lateralus on February 22, 2015, 12:36:13 pm
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Recently I've noticed a player who has 2 matches played and was lvl 1/2/3. Now with 1000 bonus exp for won match people lvl faster than ever, and I don't mind when that's a lvl30 going up, but this is a real problem when new players lvl up so fast that they remain novice for like a day or two. I've seen a guy with 9 matches played who had lvl7 in one class, which means that few more matches and he'll be out of novice, probably knowing nothing. I see lvl10-15 players not knowing that you can hit main engine in pyramidion from the bottom. There's a huge inflation of levels nowadays, which partially divided the community between pre-matchmakers and matchmakers. Personally I even accused (wrongly) one player of farming achievements because having played 1000 matches he had lvls 45/18/30-something. In comparison I, playing almost exclusively in old system, minding the achievements, having played 1500 matches didn't gain so high levels. I may sound like an arrogant douche but this shows that lvl45 and word "veteran" means much less nowadays. But other thing is much more important: new players lvl up fast, which means they get out of novice fast without much skill, and the newer players who just bought the game don't have anyone to play with, novice lobbies are abandoned. Do you know what happens then? Level2 gunner joining your crew. We all know the pain of that and we wish we never have had that kind of situation. This is bad for both new players as the veterans. That's why it is of greatest importance to fix that problem.
Firstly, as I mentioned in this* thread I plead for increasing novice lvl cap to at least lvl10 and preferably higher. This will increase the life of novice lobbies, and let me remind you that novice players can join advanced lobbies anyways. My point is explained in the given thread.
Secondly, reduce experience boost for won match from 1000 to 500. This will still be enough, but it will decrease the rapid lvl increase of new players.
Last but not least, probably the most radical solution, forbid players with match count below 50 (preferably higher) from joining advanced lobbies. This will let the community take some breath and not fear about the most unexperienced players joining our games.
I will be also sending this to devs in a minute. Lend me your thoughts on this.
*https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5114.msg84294.html#msg84294
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Last but not least, probably the most radical solution, forbid players with match count below 50 (preferably higher) from joining advanced lobbies. This will let the community take some breath and not fear about the most unexperienced players joining our games.
This is the only thing I disagree with. I mean - this is a problem, but having played 50 unorganised matches might be a turn off as well. Also, I would not have for example opportunity to train in real battle and show real fun to ryedstar for example.
Still I agree that new players are mostly a pain in the ass. Yet I don't think this is a reasonable solution. On the other hand - I don't have other proposition.
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Pretty much what I brought up recently here:
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,5601.0.html
Yes it is a problem, yes something needs to change...
I wonder.. What if "Novice" was tied to each class individually.
For example, you spend a day playing as engineer, reach level 10 and any further matches as an engineer would be non-novice, but gunner and pilot would be locked and you'd have to play as them in novice until you reached level X.
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I watched one of my crew members with 0 matches level up to lvl 4 after one match.
I'm not necessarily opposed to novices playing in regular matches, but lvl 7 is too early to kick them out of novice. And of course they want to play on regular matches instead of novice. Maybe by default put novices in novice matches, but if there aren't any available then push them into regular. Of course they can still join their friends in regular. I played novice until I wasn't allowed to anymore.
Also lets improve the default ship loadouts. Some of them just don't make sense. There are well established metas for every ship, why not put those in the default loadouts? Player made default loadouts.
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Still I agree that new players are mostly a pain in the ass. Yet I don't think this is a reasonable solution. On the other hand - I don't have other proposition.
Usually im willing to work with these new players and introduce them to the various aspect of the game as the match continues. Depending on my role i would adjust my play style to suit the needs of working with new players; and yes new players are a flip of the coin, i play plenty of pub matches and im fully aware of this. Sometimes its not easy to get through to them.
The devs designed this manner of development so that players can help each other out if they can help it, and truthfully its not always sunshine but more exposure over time tends to show it helps out a lot of new players too, irrespective of how many matches theyve played 5 or 500.
Ultimately its not about matches played or what level youre at, its about comprehending the game and that is very key to improving.
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It is way too easy to level up in the new system. I agree entirely. I didn't foresee this issue at all, in fact, I thought it would make the level system more meaningful, but some how it's now more arbitrary. This isn't anyone's fault, but something has to be done about it
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Still I agree that new players are mostly a pain in the ass. Yet I don't think this is a reasonable solution. On the other hand - I don't have other proposition.
Usually im willing to work with these new players and introduce them to the various aspect of the game as the match continues. Depending on my role i would adjust my play style to suit the needs of working with new players; and yes new players are a flip of the coin, i play plenty of pub matches and im fully aware of this. Sometimes its not easy to get through to them.
The devs designed this manner of development so that players can help each other out if they can help it, and truthfully its not always sunshine but more exposure over time tends to show it helps out a lot of new players too, irrespective of how many matches theyve played 5 or 500.
Don't get me wrong. I always try to teach. But many times they don't give a shit.
Lately I've found one player, which I'm regularly teaching how things in this game work.
About
Ultimately its not about matches played or what level youre at, its about comprehending the game and that is very key to improving.
I disagree.
The more you play, the more chances to notice, practice and improve you have.
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Uh... i agree to both statements above.
Some people find an interrest to the game because they started off wanting to teamwork when they started playing the game, or some other case.
While others dont know what they are stepping into and its just sheer luck that they will have a good time and thus continuing to play or better themselves.
The levels of this game has become so arbitrary that i cant even judge a player. Not directly but just for the expectation.
A level 10 or 25 may be utter crap while a level 2 can be a gift from god. It all boils down to the player, which it should but at the same time in a game where you pair up with random people (pubs) it is expected there should be some kind of showcase of skill level. Even a lvl 10 clan member can be fully trusted as a gunner on a sniping match. But a level 10 pub (pub where you get most of your games when you want it) is 50/50 even if hes 40.
Would be nice for anyone above 40 with any class get the ability to see matches played in the lobby of each player. But even that is a radical solution as it can also go to the same problem as ive stated.
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I wonder.. What if "Novice" was tied to each class individually.
For example, you spend a day playing as engineer, reach level 10 and any further matches as an engineer would be non-novice, but gunner and pilot would be locked and you'd have to play as them in novice until you reached level X.
This have been brought and the counter-argument is usually that higher level players can abuse their power, because they may know more about the game. I'll give you example 'ad absurdum' - imagine Geo going to a novice game as an engineer.
Don't get me wrong. I always try to teach. But many times they don't give a shit.
Lately I've found one player, which I'm regularly teaching how things in this game work.
Exactly, that's a problem. I don't mind if someone's willing to LISTEN. I had a gunner that was able to read and even respond on the chat and he went to the far-left gun on pyramidion (the one upstairs, the one no one uses 95% of the time, at least) despite me trying to show him the way to the front guns. After 5 minutes I stopped, reported him, blocked and just hoped I'll never have to play with him again. That will sound rude, but perhaps when devs will be flooded with such reports, they will at least 'notice' the problem.
The levels of this game has become so arbitrary that i cant even judge a player. Not directly but just for the expectation.
A level 10 or 25 may be utter crap while a level 2 can be a gift from god. It all boils down to the player, which it should but at the same time in a game where you pair up with random people (pubs) it is expected there should be some kind of showcase of skill level. Even a lvl 10 clan member can be fully trusted as a gunner on a sniping match. But a level 10 pub (pub where you get most of your games when you want it) is 50/50 even if hes 40.
That reminds me that when I was a new player the sheer sight of a lvl45 was frightening. Now when players <lvl10 see one they go "Oh, I guess they're pretty good". As I said, 1000 matches can easily get you a lvl45 in one class.
For me the match count is so far the best indicator. My friend conducted an experiment when he told everyone with match count below 100 to go off the ship. Everytime such person stayed - we were miserable.
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My example now. In 3-4 matches I gathered 20k of EXP. Yup - 20-fucking-thousand. I achieved something that in previous leveling system would take me at least 50 matches. Every match is another trial, another occasion to practice, and to notice why something is wrong.
To be exact. I'll repeat it once bloody more.
A day before patch 1.3.8 was introduced, I was 3-3-3, so, on the brink of leaving the novicehood. I had played more than 130 matches at that moment, so, it might be said that I already spent some fair amount of time in game. So, when 1.3.8 came, I suddenly became 7-10-9 player, without a match played since 1.3.7, and without any warning - wasn't considered novice anymore. Which is silly, as I still were.
Now, to get levels like 7-10-9, players need much less matches to play. And hence - have much less opportunities to learn.
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You guys do know that if you get achievements, you level up faster right? So it doesn't matter what you do, eventually noobs will reach a peak and be forced to grind matches. Heck I've seen this now and 1k or so XP is piddles compared to what you need to level up in the higher ranks. You want to do it fast? Grind achievements. If not, then you'll be grinding matches for awhile.
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Right, but the problem is when you have very small levels - the leveling is incredibly fast, making levels even more unreliable... that's the damn point...
Edit: How about some modifier of EXP gain for novices? Or generally depending on levels somehow?
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So leveling is "too slow"? With the current percantage of new players victory isn't something really hard (when you have a ship filled with trusted crew). The highest lvl requires 45 000 experience, which is 45 won matches. Let's assume that matchmaker works 'prefectly' and win ratio is 50%. That's 90 matches. Assuming you play deathmatches, giving around 30 minutes for match that's 45 hours of game (without achievements). Say you are playing one hour a day for whole week that's below 7 weeks. For the 'hardest' level, without achievements, achieved by winning matches. Compare it to some of the high level achievements, such as 2k spot, perfect wins, 4v4 map achievements, 3v3 CK achievements etc.
Right, but the problem is when you have very small levels - the leveling is incredibly fast, making levels even more unreliable... that's the damn point...
Edit: How about some modifier of EXP gain for novices? Or generally depending on levels somehow?
Exactly. When you get 1k for won match, a good winstreak can get you a level or two. Also tutorial achievement gives you 1k exp. If you mind the achievements you can literally go to lvl20 within weeks (sadly, often with skills of pre-matchmaking lvl3 or 4), and since novice lvl cap is 7 (sic!) this makes novice games non-existent and therefore novice players must join advanced lobbies and annoy everyone.
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I have tossed this around in my head for a little while, trying to think of some way to balance everything off, without making anyone overpowered.
My idea is that you could have a set of novice achievments. You cannot leave novice until you complete a certain number of these. Maybe have fifty of them, and completing 30 allows you to leave novice matches. These can be thing like, block 100 fires with chem spray or, break 20 ship armor using piercing weapons. Also the very important "kill 10 ships with mortars without hitting armor". The goal of these would be to teach novice players things that veterans take on instinct. Why wouldn't a noob realize that a ship covered in chem spray is way safer than a bunch of people spraying extinguishers? Just basic rules that we used to not even think we needed to tell people? Of course the number of achievments and the required percentage would be flexible.
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None of you have ever played an MMO have you? The initial levels in those go real fast. It is meant to be that way to keep attention of the players. Leveling up however, is usually accompanied by flashes or special effects + music. It strokes the psyche of the player to think they've accomplished something.
You don't want slow leveling early on or you'll have people feeling like the game is ultra grindy and quitting.
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We don't need slow leveling, just a way to ensure that novices actually know the basics. In MMO terms, how to swing a sword or cast a spell.
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None of you have ever played an MMO have you? The initial levels in those go real fast. It is meant to be that way to keep attention of the players. Leveling up however, is usually accompanied by flashes or special effects + music. It strokes the psyche of the player to think they've accomplished something.
You don't want slow leveling early on or you'll have people feeling like the game is ultra grindy and quitting.
Well, I've stated why this is, in my opinion, a huge problem for the game. If you want to stay in the "it's a MMO thing" zone then we need to drastically raise up novice lvl cap to around 15. Also, this is not an MMO and it shouldn't be treated as such. Adventure Mode should be something MMO-like, this is a ship-fighting co-op game with MMO elements. I believe that decreasing bonus XP by half will not slow down the game by this much to discourage people from the game. I would like to have another suggestion on how to solve this problem but I don't.
We don't need slow leveling, just a way to ensure that novices actually know the basics. In MMO terms, how to swing a sword or cast a spell.
Actually we need novice people to stay in novice matches for longer (and not join advanced matches). Whether we do it by decreasing lvling speed or raising novice lvl cap is a matter of debate. As I said - desolated "novice zone" is a problem that will backfire to us all
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We don't need slow leveling, just a way to ensure that novices actually know the basics. In MMO terms, how to swing a sword or cast a spell.
A new player can know perfectly when to use a spanner or mallet, even know the magic that is chem spray...
But if they don't understand the most commonly used roles (Engineer, Gunner, Gungineer) then the player will do things such as perfectly buff, and pre-buff the ship, but in mid-combat because they don't realise they're meant to be shooting, when asked to shoot, the most common.reply I've had is "Oh but I'm a mechanic I fix stuff I don't shoot stuff" even if I explained roles in the lobby before hand and they agreed...
Main Engineers who repair balloons, while the ship is under gatling fire, a problem for Pyramidions, Junkers, goldfish, the mobula hull side engineer...
Gunners who don't repair their gun gun and start shooting other guns because "I don't fix things, I shoot stuff brah"
All things I have seen in public matches and helped teach players to avoid..
The point though is, you can know how to swing a sword and cast a spell, but if you cast firebolt on your ally or swing your sword at the brick wall, you'll not be overly effective, this is the guns learning curve.
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Main Engineers who repair balloons, while the ship is under gatling fire, a problem for Pyramidions, Junkers, goldfish, the mobula hull side engineer...
Gunners who don't repair their gun gun and start shooting other guns because "I don't fix things, I shoot stuff brah"
All things I have seen in public matches and helped teach players to avoid..
(http://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/That+s+the+thousand+yard+stare.+You+lizard+s+seen+some+++_e8b6a33d7bedefc3c3eb136e73329a68.jpg)
Especially the gunners make my blood boil.
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Had an engineer tonight who would stare at parts on fire then call out..."Hey the engines are on fire."
Another time..."Hey the hull is going to die."
"Balloon's dead."
Seriously, right next to the part, just watching it and doing nothing...he had a mic...listened...I'd be polite and say..."put it out!" or "fix it!"...but no, he still kept staring at parts...was a kid but still...stared at parts....
(http://new2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/I+don+t+know+how+that+cat+is+repressing+it+s+urge+_65cf26150f4b6e2f5c28673e16843227.jpg)
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I have a feeling this just turned into a "cats reacting to bad players" thread.
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I have a feeling this just turned into a "cats reacting to bad players" thread.
Welcome to GoIo online community.
Just don't mention a munker when Gilder is around...
There's a scary wrestler whom I imagine Gilder looks like when helming a munker...
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Maybe a system that would give you only 50% XP in Advanced matches when you were novice, and the game would tell you this whenever you join an advanced match as Novice? Something to persuade the Novices to level up in their match types to actually get rewarded with full advanced match powers.
This would probably be handled a different way if it would be added, of course.
Or maybe a report system in advanced matches for Advanced players? :P
As in, people above level 25 in any class can report novices in normal matches. If the Novice gets reported 5 times, he's stuck to Novice matches for a week (Or when he levels to 8).
Basically just my idea how to give "those" people a hint.
AKA the people who In the nicest way possible, probably got hit in the head as a infant repeatably Ignore all orders over text and voice chat you give, do super absurd actions that make no sense, even to most people who probably even hadn't played the game, and the ones who get on Portside guns when you're on a Metamidion.
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I emailed Muse about the leveling up system, they're going to evaluate how fast new players are able to level up, make sure its not too daunting, it also makes teaching levels 1-12 in practice match because by the time someone realises they could learn from the vets offering help they're at level 15-20 making the practice with.newbies achieve very hard!
Oh and I added a note on novice ship loadouts being questionable, although good for keeping engagements longer, they're teaching bad habits, for.example gat flak pyra, this teaches two weapons which work best at opposite ranges, I bored poor Matt to tears with the numbers of ranges and how to get the most out of a gat flak build, which no novice would ever do...
Although I did not suggest meta I suggested other builds. 8)
But yeah level up speed is going to be looked at. :)
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None of you have ever played an MMO have you? The initial levels in those go real fast. It is meant to be that way to keep attention of the players. Leveling up however, is usually accompanied by flashes or special effects + music. It strokes the psyche of the player to think they've accomplished something.
You don't want slow leveling early on or you'll have people feeling like the game is ultra grindy and quitting.
good. impatient people are the reason meat grinder exists.
Also novice does NOTHING as novices don't go to novice matches. They fill up pub and screw me over whenever I want to lvl up my piloting.
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Novice matches should be renamed to Goldshire...
Maybe that'll keep it more popular....
#Goldshire, the worst place to go in WoW...
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I only got response that my suggestions will be forwarded to Eric.
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By the way, going a bit off topic here but
he still kept staring at parts...was a kid but still...stared at parts....
I hope that wasnt intentional.
heh.
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It seems that ultimately we need two things for novice.
1. It is required. This could be achieved by making so that you cannot leave novice mode, unless you are invited to a game by a friend.
2. Stay in novice longer. There are multiple ways to do this. Raise level cap, or take away the 1000xp for winning (at least in novice matches) seem to be the most popular suggestions.
Bonus. A way to ensure the novices actually learned what they were supposed to. That is highest on my list, because even a lvl 2 can be good if s/he knows what s/he is doing.
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By the way, going a bit off topic here but
he still kept staring at parts...was a kid but still...stared at parts....
I hope that wasnt intentional.
heh.
Can you feel the maturity?
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Eric said that they are not going to change XP reward for won matches or novice lvl cap but they will look at the achievement rewards and perhaps lower them.
He also said that there are going to be some new tutorials.
Coming out of novice (with one class), when we count only rewards for matches, requires from 36 matches (100% win/lose ratio) to 72 matches (50% win/lose ratio). Add the tutorial (one level for free) and some achievements that you do by default (like "repair X stuff", "extinguish Y fires", "buff Z things") and rewards for doing things on your ship and you'll see that you can come out of novice in literally week, without much effort.
Also in the older system the novice cap was lvl4 with lvl12 max (33%). Now it's lvl8 with lvl45 max (17,8%).
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So...
There exists in the game. A lvl 41 pilot.
He flies a sniper ship and flies in close.
and he's surprised it doesn't work.
He's done it with a mobula and a spire.
In the old lvl system. I NEVER saw a level 10 that bad. You really worked for your levels.
Here's my suggestion for levels. Matches played (like every 10-50) gives chunks of exp ( a small bonus). But the bulk of exp comes from wins.
This is based off rank systems used by fighting games. But instead of fighting games, you don't rank down with enough losses or have those rank up chances. You merely lvl up by X wins and X matches played.
Because let's get real. We play to win. I personally just do it while grinding arbitrary achieves.
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But this is the system we have, perhaps with different proportions. Lost match gives you 100 exp I think, and won match gives you a 1000. Except you have enormous amount of exp from achievements (someone noted achievement worth 10 000 exp).
I see people with 1000 matches that have one of their clas maxed-out, lvl45 and other around 20-30. But although I don't like it, that's not the case. The important thing is to keep noobs in the noob lobbies so no one can leave novice zone with less than 75-100 matches.
Edit: Also, matchmaker uses win/lose ratio and I think it's quite unfair in GOIO. You may have 3 best players of the world and one idiot who will, for instance, take the helm immideately (being a gunner) and will ruin whole game. It's really hard to measure skill but it's quite easy to measure experience, which should be good enough to create balanced matches.
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I say achieves gives no exp.
But instead give some other award. (iunno in-game money for adventure mode for whatever swag you're meant to grind money for).
Oh I know! Achievements decide your Title as opposed to your level.
Your level is just a number (whereupon certain lvls award you items and costumes and crap)
Losses give 0 exp.
Wins give 500, 700 or 1200, based on how big the gap in score is.
e.g. 5-1=400.
well the values can be changed around but still use that kinda formula.
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(https://i.imgflip.com/jq6om.jpg)
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Levels aren't a good reflection of skills. Matches played is. I play like a 300ish matches played, Gilder or Zill or people who's been around for ages, play like 2000+ matches played.
If we want level to correlate with skill, it should correlate with matches played. So I like the idea of achieves not giving exp (but gives titles instead).
But than again, I don't want leveling system to change so soon.
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Call me cruel, but I seriously think the best way for a newbie to learn an online game is for him to get the crap beat out of him.
Smart newbies will start copying techniques that they found completely rekt them. In doing so, they will be summarily rekt by their counters. They will then begin to shed some of their newbishness and begin their transformations into valuable teammates.
N00bs will simply get rekt over and over. They will then ragequit, and no one will miss them.
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Problem is, that Muse will miss them, and what they'll do?
ANOTHER FUCKING SALE...
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Smell that, boys?
That's the smell of elitism
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I'm not an elitist, I like teaching... but only those who are willing to learn. And mostly I get assholes aboard my ship. And as said, I like it, but in that amount it becomes rather tiring...
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I'm not an elitist, I like teaching... but only those who are willing to learn. And mostly I get assholes aboard my ship. And as said, I like it, but in that amount it becomes rather tiring...
Testify brother! Testify!!
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*shrug... I'm elitist. 8)
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As elitist as Slytherin?
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If slytherin has no tolerance of noobs dragging its team down with incompetence then sure.
but then again slytherin has those twin morons so... mebbe more like voldemorts posse of evil wizards (also dat crazy witch bitch is hot).
did slytherin ever get cute girlies? I got the impression it was a sausage fest.
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Depends, were Narcissa and Bellatrix cute?
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Depends, were Narcissa and Bellatrix cute?
Eww, no.
But I loved the Snake.
You can slither into my pants anytime. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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Well, iunno. Ceresbane has his own standards.
Now, which snake do you mean? The murderous Basilisk?
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Well, iunno. Ceresbane has his own standards.
Now, which snake do you mean? The murderous Basilisk?
No, Voldermort's snake, Nagini. That's it's name, right?
It's been forever since I last read Harry Potter.
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Nagini? Yep, that's You-Know-Who's snake.
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Depends, were Narcissa and Bellatrix cute?
iunno.. not big pot head.
i just watched the movies as emma watson slowly turned fit.
Depends, were Narcissa and Bellatrix cute?
I think the waifu wars would be alone the lines of.
"No she's your waifu."
"No she's your waifu."
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Depends, were Narcissa and Bellatrix cute?
iunno.. not big pot head.
i just watched the movies as emma watson slowly turned fit.
Read the books instead. Nagini gets sexier and sexier
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Depends, were Narcissa and Bellatrix cute?
iunno.. not big pot head.
i just watched the movies as emma watson slowly turned fit.
Read the books instead. Nagini gets sexier and sexier
someone frequents the yiffing factory...
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Depends, were Narcissa and Bellatrix cute?
iunno.. not big pot head.
i just watched the movies as emma watson slowly turned fit.
Read the books instead. Nagini gets sexier and sexier
someone frequents the yiffing factory...
Dangit how did they know.
I was in stealth mode.
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OK SO THE NOOB PROBLEM IS DUE TO FAST LEVELING WITHOUT LEARNING
There was a LV11 engineer who rebuilt with Mallet and repaired with Spanner.
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OK SO THE NOOB PROBLEM IS DUE TO FAST LEVELING WITHOUT LEARNING
There was a LV11 engineer who rebuilt with Mallet and repaired with Spanner.
Stop derailing the threadjk senpai pls no ban
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OK SO THE NOOB PROBLEM IS DUE TO FAST LEVELING WITHOUT LEARNING
There was a LV11 engineer who rebuilt with Mallet and repaired with Spanner.
we kinda knew... that was the problem... its mainly the achieve exp.
also... that guy just might be a troll. sounds too intentional.
noobs just use mallet because too dumb to switch tools.
Nothing sadder than a gunner than doesn't use its 3 special ammos because retard. If he doesn't use his ammo wtf is his point of being a gunner?
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OK SO THE NOOB PROBLEM IS DUE TO FAST LEVELING WITHOUT LEARNING
There was a LV11 engineer who rebuilt with Mallet and repaired with Spanner.
Stop derailing the threadjk senpai pls no ban
You're one to talk.
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Call me cruel, but I seriously think the best way for a newbie to learn an online game is for him to get the crap beat out of him.
Smart newbies will start copying techniques that they found completely rekt them. In doing so, they will be summarily rekt by their counters. They will then begin to shed some of their newbishness and begin their transformations into valuable teammates.
N00bs will simply get rekt over and over. They will then ragequit, and no one will miss them.
honestly, this combined with meeting some good vets is how i learned, i started before matchmaker, and to be honest there were never many novice matches around. whenever i saw someone who was lvl 15 i shut up and listened to them
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All of you guys derailing my thread, the one I think is really important for the future of the community:
(http://img.pandawhale.com/101360-could-you-fucking-not-meme-chl-o9w2.png)
I mean, seriously, I know we all like to joke from time to time but this is too much. Go the fuck out babbling about this shit to the pit, thank you very much. And please, do not reproduce.
Koali, Ceresbane, David Dire:
(http://ibnjuferi.us/wp-content/uploads/fuck_you.jpg)
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@DJ Logicalia
For the sake of argument, could you explain how do you define elitism, where do you find it here and why is it bad? I'm serious, it's the first time I come across this word and I believe provided you explain what you meant we may form a fruitful discussion.
@Indreams
You're pretty much right. Since levels are now completely worthless (pre-1.3.8 they were more or less valid) I always check the match count. Some time ago I suggested that match count should be some kind of MMR multiplyer, because even if the same win/lose ratio a guy who have 100 matches played is usually much worse player than the one with 1000 matches.
@MidnightWonko
I disagree. No one will play a game that is no fun and seems to have too steep learning curve. Giving example 'ad absurdum' - suppose you learn to play football with the best team of your country. You get your ass handed one, two, or few more times and then you say "Fuck it, it's too hard for me" and never do it again. On the other hand if you learn with guys with similar skill you may actually have fun, and if you really dig it you may try to learn more on your own and become better at it.
Oh, and this is perhaps something that happens if after a sale there is a peak of 1500-2000 players and after a few month we're back to average of 200-300 players during peak.
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We so deserved that.
#Rekt
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I admit, I contributed, but did you have to swear at me? *Pouts.*
Again, I jest.
EDIT: Not only did I contribute, but I also started the whole Harry Potter thing. Sorry about that.
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(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/60968689.jpg)
True story
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@David Dire
Oh yes you did.
@Koali
Don't mind the swearing, mind the MEANING. I must admit, when I saw that derailed HP conversation... I regretted not having hollow-points. Seriously. From my point of view he is justified, because HE REALLY CARE about this game.
@MightyKeb
I guess you misstook the thread. If not, explain please? ^^
PS: I've met 20-something level gunner telling me how Heavy Carronade sucks. Or engineer level 17 running around mallet-buff-ext BECAUSE OF ACHIEVEMENTS.
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Level 27 engineer... Cant chem spray, claims its too weak against fires....
Complains he cant keep up with repairs... While he shoots our allies with a flamer...
Troll? Nope..
Genuinely someone who had no chances to learn beyond just doing what they wanted on a ship and level upto 27 pretty fast...
Buff engineer refuses main loadout against heavy carro and lumberjack match.. Because acheives...
Rage quits match because he couldn't buff the balloon because it was always dead and his pipewrench was slow to rebuild.
There is level inflation and people who think they know better or just don't give a damn...
Match count will not separate them either....
Still not as bad as someone who presses a button on the floor during Payday overdrill...
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Still the number of matches if more reliable - cause it means somebody actually had an opportunity to learn some vital skills and tricks.
For example yesterday I saw a guy with the exact levels as I (30-30-29), and he had... 500 matches played.
And he sucked.
The only achievements I find good in terms of learning are ship achievements ("do this and that with junker 40 times"), cause they encourage me to learn new ships and new tactics.
Otherwise, achievements mostly encourage new bastards to be assholes and not cooperate, because their bloody levels and achievement count is much more important. Uh.
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For example yesterday I saw a guy with the exact levels as I (30-30-29), and he had... 500 matches played.
And he sucked.
Schwalbe, you just counted your own levels.
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For example yesterday I saw a guy with the exact levels as I (30-30-29), and he had... 500 matches played.
And he sucked.
Schwalbe, you just counted your own levels.
I saw a guy with the exact levels as I (30-30-29) , and he had... 500 matches played.
And he sucked.
The main difference is that I have 950. And MOSTLY I know what I'm doing, unless I'm a pilot, which sometimes makes me act retarded.
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I have +400 matches and almost 2 months of game experience, I don't do achievements and play 60% pub 40% clan
In 3 months since my profile creation, I will be 40ish as Engineer. If I went for achievements I would be already there. This is not normal.
I played novice games with players that are still in my friend list and they have surpassed me, netting more than 30 levels on all three classes in less that 400 games.
I played gunner three times, on a hwacha once and carronate twice and yet I am level 7. This is not normal.
Ask me to fly anything other than my beloved junker and I will be mediocre at best. Yet, level 22 something. Still have to use some tools for the first time. Most of my experience is indirect (youtube and streaming) and I rely mostly on the skills of the crew rather than timing and positioning. Yet in another month I could be easily 40ish as a Pilot too. This is not normal.
I don't want to win levels easily, I don't even want levels if it must be this travesty.
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I have +400 matches and almost 2 months of game experience, I don't do achievements and play 60% pub 40% clan
In 3 months since my profile creation, I will be 40ish as Engineer. If I went for achievements I would be already there. This is not normal.
I played novice games with players that are still in my friend list and they have surpassed me, netting more than 30 levels on all three classes in less that 400 games.
I played gunner three times, on a hwacha once and carronate twice and yet I am level 7. This is not normal.
Ask me to fly anything other than my beloved junker and I will be mediocre at best. Yet, level 22 something. Still have to use some tools for the first time. Most of my experience is indirect (youtube and streaming) and I rely mostly on the skills of the crew rather than timing and positioning. Yet in another month I could be easily 40ish as a Pilot too. This is not normal.
I don't want to win levels easily, I don't even want levels if it must be this travesty.
I have an idea.
Write it to Muse. Maybe they'll finally get sober about that and see the problem, when it won't be like "hurr durr new players level too fast hurr"...
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AI clan chieve whore. But I thoroughly train them to play at a given above average standard, so we win while grinding. With a competent crew/team winning is too easy. You need things like achievements to make it interesting.
And in the event of stacked matches? Achieves work to give some sort consolation prize.
That being said ACHIEVES SHOULD NOT GIVE EXP.
The old lvling system when you reached the higher tiers, achieves were freakin near impossible to just really specific/hard. Hence. You had to actually be good to get them.
Not gonna get 100% no death vs old lvl 7 unless you know what the hell you are doing. And by average lvls 7 were seldom retards (some were definitely dumb, but they were functional pilots). They knew how to work that pyra. Maybe some pilots are smarter than others, but they at least knew. Gat mortar pyra+point ship in direction of enemy ship=easy kills.
case in point achievements worked as a very useful learning tool. But not in the way it is executed sometimes.
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AI clan chieve whore. But I thoroughly train them to play at a given above average standard, so we win while grinding. With a competent crew/team winning is too easy. You need things like achievements to make it interesting.
KNTG do not grind achievements, but most of them were given basic training, and with them I'm able to fight most mid-tier ships. Usually.
The old lvling system when you reached the higher tiers, achieves were freakin near impossible to just really specific/hard. Hence. You had to actually be good to get them.
I was saying that since, like - november.
FFS.
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I'm really pushing for that achieves=title thing.
Achieve exp needs to be out of the lvling equation.
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achievements SHOULD give something, i personally dont intentionally go after achievements in a game unless theres a reward. if its xp it should be a small amount, the title thing is a good idea. It gives more credit as far as bragging goes
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achievements SHOULD give something, i personally dont intentionally go after achievements in a game unless theres a reward. if its xp it should be a small amount, the title thing is a good idea. It gives more credit as far as bragging goes
remember when xbox 360 first invented it?
people went for them just for the sake of getting them. Guns has spoiled people by giving them awards, as opposed to achieves themselves being the reward.
im max lvl everything but I still go for achieves. its fun.
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even if its just unlocking concept art, its a nice touch. i never played the 360. i dont deny that they can be fun to do, but there are some people who wont bother with them without incentive
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Maybe that's the good thing actually... people not being so tuned to making achievements at all, but playing the damn game instead.
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not a bad idea at all, i just think that if the game has achievements id want something out of it, Thing is, the old lvling system could be easily exploited, noob could just grab a couple friends, start a private match, and have a grindfest
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even if its just unlocking concept art, its a nice touch. i never played the 360. i dont deny that they can be fun to do, but there are some people who wont bother with them without incentive
then they wont do them.
they wouldnt be effecting the level economy so.... who cares? What I'm suggesting is that achieves effects your title. 100% all pilot achieves=you earn pilot elite title.
if you dont care what ur title is... then dont bother with it.
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thats something that i can respect, it makes sense as it does require skill to get those higher achievments
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As it did looong time ago as it seems now.
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Achievements giving 'only' titles is a pretty good idea actually. Also the badges reward could be moved from leveling to achievements. Sadly I think both of those will seem too much of a change for Muse.
If we're at it - badges for matches played, please? For 500, 1000 and perhaps 1500/2000 matches?
For example yesterday I saw a guy with the exact levels as I (30-30-29), and he had... 500 matches played.
And he sucked.
Schwalbe, you just counted your own levels.
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2wzmeWwhD1qza5nw.jpg)
I have +400 matches and almost 2 months of game experience, I don't do achievements and play 60% pub 40% clan
In 3 months since my profile creation, I will be 40ish as Engineer. If I went for achievements I would be already there. This is not normal.
I played novice games with players that are still in my friend list and they have surpassed me, netting more than 30 levels on all three classes in less that 400 games.
I played gunner three times, on a hwacha once and carronate twice and yet I am level 7. This is not normal.
Ask me to fly anything other than my beloved junker and I will be mediocre at best. Yet, level 22 something. Still have to use some tools for the first time. Most of my experience is indirect (youtube and streaming) and I rely mostly on the skills of the crew rather than timing and positioning. Yet in another month I could be easily 40ish as a Pilot too. This is not normal.
I don't want to win levels easily, I don't even want levels if it must be this travesty.
So much this!
[GLaDOS voice]: Burning people! He said what we're all thinking!
Another idea would be for achievements to unlock some cosmetics that aren't availible in any other way (that means also 'no shop'!) but GOIO lacks content even to reward people with something every level, not to speak about some other stuff. I mean, make like 9 extra costumes - 3 for every class for one 'step' of achievements (achievements of old lvl5, lvl10 and lvl15).
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For example yesterday I saw a guy with the exact levels as I (30-30-29), and he had... 500 matches played.
And he sucked.
Schwalbe, you just counted your own levels.
#REKT
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Achievements giving 'only' titles is a pretty good idea actually. Also the badges reward could be moved from leveling to achievements. Sadly I think both of those will seem too much of a change for Muse.
If we're at it - badges for matches played, please? For 500, 1000 and perhaps 1500/2000 matches?
For example yesterday I saw a guy with the exact levels as I (30-30-29), and he had... 500 matches played.
And he sucked.
Schwalbe, you just counted your own levels.
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m2wzmeWwhD1qza5nw.jpg)
I have +400 matches and almost 2 months of game experience, I don't do achievements and play 60% pub 40% clan
In 3 months since my profile creation, I will be 40ish as Engineer. If I went for achievements I would be already there. This is not normal.
I played novice games with players that are still in my friend list and they have surpassed me, netting more than 30 levels on all three classes in less that 400 games.
I played gunner three times, on a hwacha once and carronate twice and yet I am level 7. This is not normal.
Ask me to fly anything other than my beloved junker and I will be mediocre at best. Yet, level 22 something. Still have to use some tools for the first time. Most of my experience is indirect (youtube and streaming) and I rely mostly on the skills of the crew rather than timing and positioning. Yet in another month I could be easily 40ish as a Pilot too. This is not normal.
I don't want to win levels easily, I don't even want levels if it must be this travesty.
So much this!
[GLaDOS voice]: Burning people! He said what we're all thinking!
Another idea would be for achievements to unlock some cosmetics that aren't availible in any other way (that means also 'no shop'!) but GOIO lacks content even to reward people with something every level, not to speak about some other stuff. I mean, make like 9 extra costumes - 3 for every class for one 'step' of achievements (achievements of old lvl5, lvl10 and lvl15).
well get to work workshop slave.
as for the title thing...
well they're willing to do some stupid drastic change like stamina (as well as the lvling system overhaul in the first place). they can afford to do this lvling system tweak.
if enough people are spamming them with the suggestion. they have to listen surely.
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During my observation of clan members, allies and public lobbies. Can honestly say "Achievements can & do make people selfish."
Achievements we were told do not help you level up faster...... This was mentioned in a Dev chat. Well they said that they do not help you level up that they gave a small Xp bouns. However when you get 10k per chieve V 1k per win what do you expect players to do. Achieves are still the Bonus DLC that most players want to XP up Can understand a player going after the Top Tier 1 Achieves when you have only those things to do.
"Achievements should be removed altogether when it comes to XP."
Better rewards can be had. These ideas have been mentioned above. Anything bar XP would be a good move for Achievements progression. Achievements are part of the journey a Reward in themselves Would you give 2 bonuses in a real time business? No it would cost too much in lost revenue. So why Gorge them on XP too? The Achievements are what keep many people playing in most games.
If that business model does not work in Guns then remove it.
Typed that damn word achievement out far too many time for my taste.
Just my thoughts
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What if achievements were hidden. But the names hint torwards how to get it? Or would that encourage exploring achievements more so than ever...
mhh...
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What if achievements were hidden. But the names hint torwards how to get it? Or would that encourage exploring achievements more so than ever...
mhh...
Imagine making a white-whaler. Nope. It's very difficult to make it normally, now hide it... And not everyone must get the Moby-Dick reference. I for example have never read that book, nor had to.
I'd say - making an achievement gives you 500 EXP. Or less. So winning is more or less more desireable. On the other hand - it may increase the number of ragequitters... Not sure. But still, guess it's better than hiding achieves.
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What if achievements were hidden. But the names hint torwards how to get it? Or would that encourage exploring achievements more so than ever...
mhh...
besides the point as it doesnt solve the problem at hand.
achieves give too much exp. that needs to be top priority in getting rid of.
Achieve hunters will achieve hunt. others wont.
But if you make it central to the lvling system? EVERYONE WILL.
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got a reply from keyvias today.
There are some title changes in the works, they'll probably be in the game pretty soon!
Just that short reply. I don't think he quite understand how awesome an idea this is. Because he missed the entire point of the idea.
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But what if he does not want to spoil any surprises? Also, they are bound to get a ton of feedback emails everyday, so he may not have had time for too long of a reply.
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got a reply from keyvias today.
There are some title changes in the works, they'll probably be in the game pretty soon!
Just that short reply. I don't think he quite understand how awesome an idea this is. Because he missed the entire point of the idea.
Soooo...
(http://i.imgur.com/LvFpsdT.jpg)
Except with "him" instead of "you?"
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But what if he does not want to spoil any surprises? Also, they are bound to get a ton of feedback emails everyday, so he may not have had time for too long of a reply.
the wording though...
its not even considering the viability of the idea.
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But what if he does not want to spoil any surprises? Also, they are bound to get a ton of feedback emails everyday, so he may not have had time for too long of a reply.
This rather means he don't want to trigger another unrest among the community too soon, revealing another hellspawned idea of Satan himself helping out Muse...
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I'm pretty much with this thread although the only downside I can see is the massive hit to fun newbies like me will get. I enjoy hoping into advanced games (for me it's just another match =D)
But some of the opinions in this thread are a bit concerning. Matches played does show dedication but if you're a dedicated troll or hell bent on playing your way you could easily play 1000+ games blissfully ignorant of the meta or learn any nice hints and tips. Also look at it later, all the vets now who have say 2000+ or so would be an even higher number while the novices would finally get to 1000 games so we would essentially be in the same spot since they would lack the experience. That bar would just keep rising? No?
Wins are pretty much irrelevant as long as you're having fun and if that means playing matches regardless of opponents K/D ratios and what not then that's got to be a good thing, means more play time which is what you guys want right?
I do have a suggestion that could apply to the novice bracket in particular,
I was thinking something with the commendation system because right now it's just a virtual stroke, it literally means nothing. It could be reworked with three different options to choose from which represent a different opinion on the player being commended. Obviously these would be from higher level players playing with novices who've decided to join advanced games. Let the players weed out the weak so to speak, if you're tired of Muse's methods.
Have the current thumbs up commendation which basically tells the player they've done a good job. Doesn't provide any positives apart from being a nice pat on the back and letting the novice player know they did good in the advanced match and maybe they could play another one.
The second commendation is the thumbs down commendation and that would basically ensure the player is stuck in novice matches for some time (1hr or so)
Players that ignore commending a novice would have no say but they would narrow the votes cast down. I guess that is the third option
The commendation result could be the majority commendations voted.
On the levels issue I'd say an overall reduction to exp rewarded for wins and matches played for everyone. Definitely tone down the achievement exp.
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I'm pretty much with this thread although the only downside I can see is the massive hit to fun newbies like me will get. I enjoy hoping into advanced games (for me it's just another match =D)
But some of the opinions in this thread are a bit concerning. Matches played does show dedication but if you're a dedicated troll or hell bent on playing your way you could easily play 1000+ games blissfully ignorant of the meta or learn any nice hints and tips. Also look at it later, all the vets now who have say 2000+ or so would be an even higher number while the novices would finally get to 1000 games so we would essentially be in the same spot since they would lack the experience. That bar would just keep rising? No?
Wins are pretty much irrelevant as long as you're having fun and if that means playing matches regardless of opponents K/D ratios and what not then that's got to be a good thing, means more play time which is what you guys want right?
I do have a suggestion that could apply to the novice bracket in particular,
I was thinking something with the commendation system because right now it's just a virtual stroke, it literally means nothing. It could be reworked with three different options to choose from which represent a different opinion on the player being commended. Obviously these would be from higher level players playing with novices who've decided to join advanced games. Let the players weed out the weak so to speak, if you're tired of Muse's methods.
Have the current thumbs up commendation which basically tells the player they've done a good job. Doesn't provide any positives apart from being a nice pat on the back and letting the novice player know they did good in the advanced match and maybe they could play another one.
The second commendation is the thumbs down commendation and that would basically ensure the player is stuck in novice matches for some time (1hr or so)
Players that ignore commending a novice would have no say but they would narrow the votes cast down. I guess that is the third option
The commendation result could be the majority commendations voted.
On the levels issue I'd say an overall reduction to exp rewarded for wins and matches played for everyone. Definitely tone down the achievement exp.
trolls don't last long in the community.
by the 100th match every regular knows them and by then they'd be reported and likely banned or leave at their own accord as they continually get blocked by players.
Blocked players cannot join the crew of the person that blocked them (well theres a work around but you know..)
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Blocked players cannot join the crew of the person that blocked them (well theres a work around but you know..)
Really? Hmmm. I did not now about that.
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Blocked players cannot join the crew of the person that blocked them (well theres a work around but you know..)
Really? Hmmm. I did not now about that.
I think that you are told in the chat box that the player blocked you
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Blocked players cannot join the crew of the person that blocked them (well theres a work around but you know..)
Really? Hmmm. I did not now about that.
I think that you are told in the chat box that the player blocked you
Now this I will not believe, for there's no way nobody to have never blocked me.
Excluding that one bastard who came to my crew and for the one and only time made me stop an entire fucking ship, because he ruined my time entirely. Thank God the bastard left.
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Blocked players cannot join the crew of the person that blocked them (well theres a work around but you know..)
Really? Hmmm. I did not now about that.
I think that you are told in the chat box that the player blocked you
Now this I will not believe, for there's no way nobody to have never blocked me.
Excluding that one bastard who came to my crew and for the one and only time made me stop an entire fucking ship, because he ruined my time entirely. Thank God the bastard left.
You can't join off of someone who has you blocked (and vice versa), but you can crew for/with them if you find your way into their lobby
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like I said.
work around.
but thats besides the point. Most of these problems would be solved if they simply strengthened the segregation (not an absolute one just a much stronger one) between novices and vets.
I've seen enough of their forcefully palming off to us this teacher/student hand holding. It just doesn't work. Those who want to learn from vets graduate from novice.
And then you consistently get legit, passionate players. As opposed to generic jobbers that just serve to derp around your ship with the whole ship picking up their slack. I'm really getting sick of it.
Its why I only pilot with AI crew these days.
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You mean, crew of your clan or actual AI?
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You mean, crew of your clan or actual AI?
Both.
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You mean, crew of your clan or actual AI?
His use of AI has confused me my entire time on the forums. Never sure which he means.
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You mean, crew of your clan or actual AI?
Both.
Best to assume this in every case.
Unless I specify baby AIs
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You mean, crew of your clan or actual AI?
Both.
Best to assume this in every case.
Unless I specify baby AIs
Such as Wizard.
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Best to assume this in every case.
Unless I specify baby AIs
Such as Wizard.
I like flying with [AI]s, they are like pre-teen Olympic Chinese gymnasts.
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I like flying with [AI]s, they are like pre-teen Olympic Chinese gymnasts.
LOLICON!!!! :P
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I'm pretty much with this thread although the only downside I can see is the massive hit to fun newbies like me will get. I enjoy hoping into advanced games (for me it's just another match =D)
But some of the opinions in this thread are a bit concerning. Matches played does show dedication but if you're a dedicated troll or hell bent on playing your way you could easily play 1000+ games blissfully ignorant of the meta or learn any nice hints and tips. Also look at it later, all the vets now who have say 2000+ or so would be an even higher number while the novices would finally get to 1000 games so we would essentially be in the same spot since they would lack the experience. That bar would just keep rising? No?
Wins are pretty much irrelevant as long as you're having fun and if that means playing matches regardless of opponents K/D ratios and what not then that's got to be a good thing, means more play time which is what you guys want right?
I do have a suggestion that could apply to the novice bracket in particular,
I was thinking something with the commendation system because right now it's just a virtual stroke, it literally means nothing. It could be reworked with three different options to choose from which represent a different opinion on the player being commended. Obviously these would be from higher level players playing with novices who've decided to join advanced games. Let the players weed out the weak so to speak, if you're tired of Muse's methods.
Have the current thumbs up commendation which basically tells the player they've done a good job. Doesn't provide any positives apart from being a nice pat on the back and letting the novice player know they did good in the advanced match and maybe they could play another one.
The second commendation is the thumbs down commendation and that would basically ensure the player is stuck in novice matches for some time (1hr or so)
Players that ignore commending a novice would have no say but they would narrow the votes cast down. I guess that is the third option
The commendation result could be the majority commendations voted.
On the levels issue I'd say an overall reduction to exp rewarded for wins and matches played for everyone. Definitely tone down the achievement exp.
If you have 1000 matches and you play only to troll, which takes at least 500 hours...
(http://i.imgur.com/6exP8cn.jpg)
It 'may' be less fun for greenhorns (although I don't think it will), but it 'will' be far less frustraiting for everyone else, especially dedicated high-lvl players.
To have fun you have to play with an enemy of similar level. K/D ratio is the stupidest way to determine it (in GOIO), but it is 'some' way.
About current recommendation system being pointless - true. Discussed. Devs don't care / they don't see it as priority.
I don't think another recommendation mechanic is necessary, especially when greenhorns can go into the advanced games anyway and this new system is supposed to allow us to remove them and put them into novice matches for an hour. If you want to do that - just add votekick and we'll be happy.
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I'm pretty much with this thread although the only downside I can see is the massive hit to fun newbies like me will get. I enjoy hoping into advanced games (for me it's just another match =D)
But some of the opinions in this thread are a bit concerning. Matches played does show dedication but if you're a dedicated troll or hell bent on playing your way you could easily play 1000+ games blissfully ignorant of the meta or learn any nice hints and tips. Also look at it later, all the vets now who have say 2000+ or so would be an even higher number while the novices would finally get to 1000 games so we would essentially be in the same spot since they would lack the experience. That bar would just keep rising? No?
Wins are pretty much irrelevant as long as you're having fun and if that means playing matches regardless of opponents K/D ratios and what not then that's got to be a good thing, means more play time which is what you guys want right?
I do have a suggestion that could apply to the novice bracket in particular,
I was thinking something with the commendation system because right now it's just a virtual stroke, it literally means nothing. It could be reworked with three different options to choose from which represent a different opinion on the player being commended. Obviously these would be from higher level players playing with novices who've decided to join advanced games. Let the players weed out the weak so to speak, if you're tired of Muse's methods.
Have the current thumbs up commendation which basically tells the player they've done a good job. Doesn't provide any positives apart from being a nice pat on the back and letting the novice player know they did good in the advanced match and maybe they could play another one.
The second commendation is the thumbs down commendation and that would basically ensure the player is stuck in novice matches for some time (1hr or so)
Players that ignore commending a novice would have no say but they would narrow the votes cast down. I guess that is the third option
The commendation result could be the majority commendations voted.
On the levels issue I'd say an overall reduction to exp rewarded for wins and matches played for everyone. Definitely tone down the achievement exp.
If you have 1000 matches and you play only to troll, which takes at least 500 hours...
(http://i.imgur.com/6exP8cn.jpg)
It 'may' be less fun for greenhorns (although I don't think it will), but it 'will' be far less frustraiting for everyone else, especially dedicated high-lvl players.
To have fun you have to play with an enemy of similar level. K/D ratio is the stupidest way to determine it (in GOIO), but it is 'some' way.
About current recommendation system being pointless - true. Discussed. Devs don't care / they don't see it as priority.
I don't think another recommendation mechanic is necessary, especially when greenhorns can go into the advanced games anyway and this new system is supposed to allow us to remove them and put them into novice matches for an hour. If you want to do that - just add votekick and we'll be happy.
No it generally isn't as fun as learning and playing. I mean the it's bad not knowing the mechanics of the game and not enjoying it but then it's much worse having people who know the mechanics and not bother showing people how to play.
On the troll example. I also said bad players that just want to play their way. Kinda like trolls. It wouldn't surprise me if we had that happen, you've got people who like to play game because they're entertaining, while some people may not be good they play because they enjoy it.
If you're worried about the dedicated high level players why not teach more newer and inexperienced players who are dedicated to grow that part of the community? If anything set up a separate lobby for the higher tier players that novices or mid ranks can't access unless invited. I myself want to get to that level of gaming in GoI but every time I'm in lobby higher level players refuse to play with me on the same ship simply because I have a low match count or level.
How do newbies get higher match count and level if we're playing Lobbies of Icarus all day? (I live in Australia and the community here is almost non existent. especially since the sudden drop in Japanese/SEA players, so staying up in ungodly hours on my spare time waiting to play only to be refused time and time again is quite irritating)
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this ignorant implication that the whole majority of the vet haven't at some stage tried to teach every noob they encountered... only to be met with retards who don't know simple commands like forward, stay and BIG RED THING MEANS MOVE YOUR ASS AND REACT!
How about, newer players learn like every other newb in every other competitive community. They git gud and learn by themselves out of sight of vets.
And when they demonstrate an average level of competence, vets bother actually teaching them without having their patience and time wasted.
because frankly? Teaching those I deem worth my time and under my wing and under my clan tag? Much less stressful than some random yob who I would actually punch, if I ever encounter them in a IRL team-based activity. Especially if money (and the quantity of) is involved in the quality of the general result.
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Yesterday I witnessed how one noob (offensive sound of this one intended) explaining to the other noob how to deactivate searching for novice matches in matchmaker. This is terrifying.
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this ignorant implication that the whole majority of the vet haven't at some stage tried to teach every noob they encountered... only to be met with retards who don't know simple commands like forward, stay and BIG RED THING MEANS MOVE YOUR ASS AND REACT!
How about, newer players learn like every other newb in every other competitive community. They git gud and learn by themselves out of sight of vets.
And when they demonstrate an average level of competence, vets bother actually teaching them without having their patience and time wasted.
because frankly? Teaching those I deem worth my time and under my wing and under my clan tag? Much less stressful than some random yob who I would actually punch, if I ever encounter them in a IRL team-based activity. Especially if money (and the quantity of) is involved in the quality of the general result.
Right, and you 'got gud' I assume? Your high and mighty opinion shouldn't weigh on people who are just starting out. I'm pretty sure CA's should have a heavier opinion in the matter with how the newer player system works. I'm with you guys on the trolls though that doesn't mean I support an entire noobicide because of a few bad apples.
I'm on my way to 'gitting gud' it's just difficult to get a good match especially in the novice pool and I'm not ignorant to the way vets treat newer players. I get that treatment BEFORE the match even starts because I'm 'too low level' or 'not enough matches, not worth my time, got back to novice scrub *insta blocked*' That attitude needs to crawl in a hole and die. I can seriously count on my hand how many level 35+ players I've played against. 2 of which are in this thread.
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I understand being instablocked is bad, and it is.
But you have to understand that the attitude comes from an enourmous ammounts of bad apples, theres only few good apples.
The attitude is sick and disgusting, but so is people who say they where at the hull when as a pilot i can clearly see he was repairing a gun and only took a step for the hull when it was too late.
I yell out commands to be clear, for maybe they cannot hear me clearly only to notice they cannot hear me at all, because their voice is set to OFF.
I give them a recommended loadout, only for them to change it anyway.
Gunner yells to turn the ship, which i cant because i need him to run for the engines, and he complains.
Seeing an engineer whack at a component where the cooldown is still on.
Seeing engineers on their guns when i called for repair.
Afk, or players so bad i wish i had an AI instead.
Even after noticing them of it, they still do the same mistake the next match...
Alot of players who actually do listen and do as i said in pub games end up succesfull + I end up being called a good or polite captain and/or being added.
But they dont know the sheer ammount of stress i put up with having to describe roles, and trying to get replies from each crew to get a good reading on who is doing what in my ship and at what standard every match. I rage really hard often just seeing my ship not do what is intended. And im not even setting a high standard or a difficult task.
I bring the easiest build, and easiest description in making my crew work togheter the best as possible. But then it all boils down to those individual crew members who cannot fullfill a simple task which does bring the whole ship down into mindlessly improvisation. Which is no fun for any veterans because they clearly see the mistake, and clearly see how it could have gone well. And they cannot do anything about it and rely on chance that they will get good crew.
I am sorry that veteran standards are too high, which it is actually not. Even though we clearly given up on the hope for newbies. But dealing with bad players is actualy not worth the match, which there is an abundance of. Which is why were so mistrusting of newplayers. Not to mention, playing as engineer or gunner on a noob ship is actually worse due to how you cannot make the ship perform better with vital decision making.
I would love to teach newplayers, but they dont want to learn. Which ends me in being frustrated and give up on it.
"GO!"
"Ready up" -when were still voting for a new map
"Why not ready?" -If only he would read the chat
"Why choose this ship?" -Asks this, but has never been on it
I dont hate noobs because i know good ones exist. But there is more bad ones and i cannot figure out why none of these people have pressed the tutorial button.
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I'm affraid I have to agree with almost all Crafekfersty said in a previous post. The difference is I rarely rage aloud. On the other hand it happens more often, when it comes to having a dumb ally.
Thank God Munkers exist. They are the best cure for bastards yelling 'READY UP', not reacting, or ramming you without any particular reason.
But dumb bastards aboard the ship... God, no. And what's worse, there will be more of them, when PS4 version will be released.
Those who know me know, I'm no elitist. I can forgive many mistakes if I see a player willing to help and learn, and it's always cheering to hear things like "Oh, I didn't know that! Thanks!", because even though I have almost 1k matches played, I don't know everything, I still learn (btw. Fuck gaylleons, who designed this shit ;___;) I always seek having rather a good time, than victory. But FFS, new players sometimes act so retarded they make me more pissed than entertained...
Edit:
"Why choose this ship?" -Asks this, but has never been on it
Well, this must be justified as that they MIGHT want to learn about it's purpose.
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Oh yeh, you can look at it that way. Il make it sound more pessemistic.
"Urgh why choose this ship when you can choose a pyra... jeeze".
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Oh, it appears I haven't put enough emphasise on one, certain word. Let me correct that mistake:
Well, this must be justified as that they MIGHT want to learn about it's purpose.
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Oh, it appears I haven't put enough emphasise on one, certain word. Let me correct that mistake:
Well, this must be justified as that they MIGHTYKEB want to learn about it's purpose.
"You called?"
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Oh, it appears I haven't put enough emphasise on one, certain word. Let me correct that mistake:
Well, this must be justified as that they MIGHTYKEB want to learn about it's purpose.
"You called?"
Fetch me some new players, so I can feast upon them!"
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Newb player, reporting for dooty sir! o7
On a serious note I can see how some people get easily frustrated and I do agree with you Crafeksterty. On that I can't provide any new suggestions apart from a separate league for higher level/vet players. Or a lobby similar to how novices have their specific bracket lobby.
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That is where the problem is difficult to fix. :(
If muse would create a league for veteran players, you would divide the ammount of players playing, searching in matchmaking, etc. When there allready is an unhealthy number of players for the game. Tbh the community has actually divided into a vet mostly group and that is the competetive scene. Most long term players engage there. Doesnt mean all long term players though. There are many veterans engaging non competetively, but if you want to see the clearest line where there is a seperation, the competetive scene is to mention.
I geniuenly do not think any hard game fixes will solve this problem. It is a heavily team-based game where one must rely on the other. And that fundemental needs development. As much as the tutorial covers things, i dont think even if the tutorial was played gives space for those players to learn the game as much as it is needed. I keep saying that Co-op when it comes out will help any player who buys that in a bundle with this to better play in skirmish.
That is because in that game, there probably is more space for them to learn, win and fail. While currently we have novice which doesnt fullfill that learning curve of succeeding and failing.
Thats what i think atleast.
If i have to mention though, the impact of what one person does, does not seem obvious. If i remember hard, when i first played engineer, i tought i was just doing toilet scrubbing janitor job. I only realised how that janitor is flipping important when i was a pilot. Thats not a janitor, its a crew member!
I feel like in order to fix this 'dynamic'. A clearer impact in teamwork needbe shown. I really dont know how, but in order to make my engineers REALLY want to fix the side engines, i have to tell them "I cannot keep my ship steady if the turning engines are damaged"
"I cant go up, because the baloon is damaged". It is just not obvious and needs to be adressed for people to want to take them seriously.
When buffing a baloon, could be nice to see how much it strengthened it for to give a sense of impact. Damage numbers for gunners? I had this idea before where you could replace your pilot tool with a book that shows you damage numbers or a book with Component effeciency. Then again, highly uncertain if this will help much.
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this ignorant implication that the whole majority of the vet haven't at some stage tried to teach every noob they encountered... only to be met with retards who don't know simple commands like forward, stay and BIG RED THING MEANS MOVE YOUR ASS AND REACT!
How about, newer players learn like every other newb in every other competitive community. They git gud and learn by themselves out of sight of vets.
And when they demonstrate an average level of competence, vets bother actually teaching them without having their patience and time wasted.
because frankly? Teaching those I deem worth my time and under my wing and under my clan tag? Much less stressful than some random yob who I would actually punch, if I ever encounter them in a IRL team-based activity. Especially if money (and the quantity of) is involved in the quality of the general result.
Right, and you 'got gud' I assume? Your high and mighty opinion shouldn't weigh on people who are just starting out.
You assume correctly. Information is abundant for any new player. I looked up this info and played armed with that knowledge. I didn't need to be told or taught.
I actively asked and learned and demonstrated and practised.
Just like any game I try. The community isn't some baby sitting service. Its people that want to play and be challenged. I'm not in the game to make you feel like a special little flower, I'm there to play the game without ideally without the feeling of being encumbered just because some noob couldnt put in the time to learn all the info that is easily available to him.
And don't you even dare imply that it isn't the case. Most cases of noobness can be fixed by doing 2 basic things, Do the tutorial and read the manual. But the problem is, very few actually do.
They play the game before they've even learned how to play. No one wants that on their ship.
Newb player, reporting for dooty sir! o7
On a serious note I can see how some people get easily frustrated and I do agree with you Crafeksterty. On that I can't provide any new suggestions apart from a separate league for higher level/vet players. Or a lobby similar to how novices have their specific bracket lobby.
you get butthurt when I mention it. And then stave it off as if you had just thought of it...
As for crank...
I have a very simple solution.
you know those prompts that appear mid game (the ones you turn off once diapers have been removed).
script it better so it directly reflects what is needed. Engines are destroyed, have the prompt say "rebuild the engines or the ship cannot move"
"rebuild the hull or the ship will not last"
"Captain is using claw/kero/moonshine maintain the engines while the tool is active"
throw out the tool use prompts. just thoroughly cover that in the tutorial. But in the game, come in with the assumption that you have the knowledge of the tools.
Because it is clearly the upper novice stuff thats getting ppl so confused (despite what a bit of fking reading will do to fix that)
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Don't listen to Maxy, Xylo. No one else does
It's great that you want to learn from the vets. You should keep trying to do that.
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Don't listen to Maxy, Xylo. No one else does
It's great that you want to learn from the vets. You should keep trying to do that.
despite my points being parroted.
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@ Crank,
Yeah I can see your point, I guess it's more a social problem than a mechanic or gameplay problem. Apart from a sorting system like a vet/competitive lobby or a social system like kicks/block parties I'm not sure what else to suggest.
@ Maxy,
Totally missed the point there. Not angry about being called a newbie (I accept it since my playtime and experience is limited compared to everyone in this thread) I'm just sick of the 'broadstroke' paintbrush approach to newbies, I can see why it happens. Granted I'm not at the level of some of the players in this thread so I can't see all of the problems, and Crank is decent enough to point out the things I missed in regards to bad apples.
Also I don't really see your points being parroted. I'm pretty sure you're just complaining about the problem and blaming it on newer players. We should really be working together to try and suggest something to alleviate the issue somewhat.
@ DJ,
All good, takes more than a bittervet to throw me off. I do play EVE after all, tolerance to them is pretty high. xD The only difficulty encountered is the insta block which kinda cripples exposure to the better players. That's the gold right there, vets.
Back on topic though, the point made on tying novice to each class would help substantially and raising the limit from 8 to 12 or higher so players remain in novice with the restrictions enforced for longer periods. You could also have a forced tutorial with minimum tasks completed to proceed so it makes sure everyone goes through it.
On the interface and mechanics;
To help explain how ships work to newer captains and crews add a description of what its basic role in the team is. Basic strategies, crew stations and setups, etc. in the ship window when we click on names. Also a description and basic loadouts for each class would help, with light meta injected. The text pop ups mid match kind of help but plenty of newbies don't read them, expanding them probably won't help unless you make the damage icons obscenely noticeable so it forces players to solve the issues at hand. There should be a flight course for newer captains to try out so they can get a feel for ship movements/capabilities, try that out with each ship and maybe tailor it to each ship.
Right now if I play gunner I just look at the guns on ship and choose ammo accordingly most newbie captains aren't sure what works. As an engineer? Spanner/Mallet and Chemspray so I can practice chem cycles. I'm not so sure on the novice captaining as a good idea (this is where patient and experienced vets come in handy) but I guess it helps sort the gems from the filth.
On the social side;
Don't anyone say 'Oh we got YouTube for that'. No, no we don't, watching a game being played by someone else and actually playing it yourself are two different things. Sure you can learn all the tips and read about it on the old forums and the new, but if you can't use it effectively because of small details you missed or meta, it won't mean a thing unless you can pull it off effectively.
I've watched the videos both the basic overviews and the competitive matches but playing the game is something else, You can't pause mid match to look up most effective ammos for each gun, sure you'll remember some of the basic novice locked guns and the ammos which work well for them, like everything it comes with time and dedication.
Really the only other changes would be how lobbies work, vet lobbies and vets hosting 'Block parties' so all the bads can be blocked into oblivion. Forcing tutorials on newer players (I didn't try but I wonder if you can invite a crew and try out the different things on the ship as each class)
Final note to all, I'd be stoked to play with you guys, if you'll have me of course, and I promise I won't hijack boats or jump around uselessly (most of the time) =D Lobbies of Icarus can be fun but I paid to play this game not sit in matchmaking talking to random people on the internet.
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Sorry for the wall of text.
On the tutorial it could be reworked into stages with text and voice since some people seemingly refuse to read;
Have the basic gunning stage which we all know, Explain different ammo gun combos and how the guns should be used and of course encourage players to try them so they can see what is and isn't effective. Explain main role and any back ups that the meta uses.
Second stage would be the engineer, explain tools and what each is used for. Explain basic repair urgency orders, the difference between chem sprays and extinguishers, mallets and spanners, etc. Give them an idea of how battle stations work (Main engi, Gungineer)
Third stage give them the captains overview, let the player decide what ship to bring and what its loadout will be. Explain the crew forms/lobby capabilities (Ship names, recommending crew loatouts, etc. You could then give them the basic flight tutorial and explain pilot tools.
Then you can move onto the basic meta of how a ship should run, maybe the metamidion since it's really simple. What the loadout is and its intended role, what the engineers do, where the gunner should be, how to fly it and what basic tools and ammos to bring for that ship. Give them a spin on combat maneuvers and then let them be thrown into the game. You could throw some reading materials at them too, recommended forums posts, official dev guides, etc.
Award achievements but no experience so players remain first level. Give them some virtual swag like the cap and hairstyles or whatever, probably dyes to colour code them better and attach them to each of the achievements or tasks so newbies are encouraged to finish the tutorial, give them some form of motivation.
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I vote for a special hat that is stuck to you and won't come off until you complete the tutorials :P
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Hi Xylo,
You like walls of text! I like walls of text too! My experiences here may be of interest to you. I've put some effort in trying to deal with our novices issues in the community. For a while I ran a novice clan specifically intended to provide novices with ways to avoid these problems. It was miserable and sucked a big chunk of the fun out of the game for me.
So I created the clan and built a bunch of rules for it, but recruitment was never really the objective. The aim was to find the gems in the rough who were wallowing in matchmaker. What I would do is join the matchmaker queue on my own, and if one of my more experienced friends wanted to join me I'd send them away and aim to play with the novices (experienced pilots typically have a bunch of folks looking to fly with them). To say this was a colourful experience is an understatement.
If I were pilotting I would politely suggest load-outs to players only to be met with a tirade of expletives, if I was lucky I'd get called a tryhard for having the audacity to want a ship that had a crew with vaguely useful equipment. If I were unlucky I'd be met with abuse questioning my sexual orientation and parents sexual habits. If I weren't piloting and dared to point out to that double flak pyras really are not a good idea, well, lets just say that didn't end well.
And I'm lucky, I'm a dude. Folks might be an ass to me but the things I heard if someone spoke while being female were just ugly. My block list got a healthy boost during this exercise.
So, I learned a few lessons doing this. Some of them aren't really relevant here (I could have pulled in more of the established clans on the exercise for instance, but my personal organizational failings don't really matter for the purpose of this thread). Others are. I'll share those below.
The first thing I will say is if you join the queue as an experienced player and are looking for personable folks consider immediately swapping teams when you are dropped in a lobby. I got no hard data on this, just that awful unreliable subjective experience thing. At high levels of play there really isn't much correlation between skill and friendliness. Ceres here is an excellent players, but he will also be the first to tell you he can be a bit of an ass at times (probably with a certain amount of pride in the fact). Logic just wants the world to be at peace bless him, but he is also a very good player. The same is not true at the lower levels of play. If you are really good and an ass people will still want to fly with you. If you are just an ass then no one wants to fly with you, and you will lose, lots. So what happens when a player with a high MMR joins the limited queue? The matchmaker balances the match by putting every bad novice it can find, and at low levels of play 'bad at the game' and 'a bit of a jerk' seem to correlate. That one jerk whose personal problems translate into problems communicating basic things like where they want people on their ship? Guess who your captain is.
Vets experiences of novices are coloured by this. I don't agree that it is a few bad apples as Xylo suggests, but I also don't think it is a forest of bad apples with that one golden granny smith hiding somewhere in a chest in that dungeon full of zombies next to that elusive vein of diamonds as some vets have implied. There are lots of great novices out there, but if you are experienced you might not meet them because matchmaker has decided the best way to balance you is dump you in a lobby with the guy who insults anyone who dares to question his all flak junker.
Not sure tutorials are the problem. If you can read there is a tutorial available for almost every ship you can think of. Heck, I've written and continue to write a bunch of novice tutorials. When you are playing multiplayer games it is just common courtesy to get an understanding of the basics before playing with others. Many players don't have this attitude. Now Kamoba has a theory that the game is horribly marketed, which I'm inclined to agree with. I only found out about GoI from Extra Creditz, and the only adverts I see for it are in the same places I see things like CoD (Call of Duty) ads. I do not want the kind of people who respond to the later responding to the former.
A very serious problem is novice pilots. Novice pilots basically shouldn't. This is a bit hypocritical of me, as I ended up piloting a lot in my early days, but that was more a result of lack of other alternatives. The core problem is that while crews always win matches (Kamoba often says 'nothing without my crew' after matches, and any experienced pilot can tell you that applies to all of us), pilots are best placed to lose matches. What I mean by this is a bad pilot makes it impossible for a good crew to compensate because pilots pick bad loadouts and are the determining factor in if suitable guns are pointing at the enemy. Nothing in the game makes this clear though. Something as simple as a message which came up the first time you went to pilot warning you what you are getting yourself in for would help, but no such message exists. This addresses one of your concerns. I was never in a position where I didn't know what I wanted my crew to do. I might have lots of options for them (I'm happy to run triple engi builds, builds with gunners, buff engi builds, really totally insane builds), but if you don't know what to do I have always made sure to explain at least an outline of my plan and what we are doing, especially to new players. Lots of novice pilots don't do this, and it does suck.
I like your positive reinforcement idea Xylo. I'd still give levels for tutorial achievements, I'd just raise the novice cap. I just don't think any of this will be enough. Honestly I don't know what would be. All I can do is continue the way I always have, which is when a decent sounding person posts of the forums remind them that they are welcome on my ship any time. An offer that now includes you Xylo.
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I vote for a special hat that is stuck to you and won't come off until you complete the tutorials :P
I instead propose a cherry icon next to your name/class icon. And your class title will not change from cherry "class" until you have done the tutorials (as in all of them).
but more importantly FIX THIS DAMN LVL INFLATION. Bad enough novices dont go in novice. But they lvl so goddamn fast they literally just play less than double digit matches and they graduate.
especially engie... those noob matches last FOREVER. You can grind achieves on those things for the full 40 mins-1 and half hour death match.