Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: MightyKeb on February 19, 2015, 11:04:48 am
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Now first of all, this conversation is assuming that these combinations are being picked for a brawler port side of a galleon. What would you prefer and why? Because I've personally been having difficulties deciding which is more viable and when. When simply gazing at it I've determined a few pros and cons of both:
HwachaCarro: (Assuming it's paired with gatling)
Pros:
- You get to have armor piercing, engine/gun disable, Balloon disable AND hull disable packed into one broadside! Making you a versatile close range foe.
- If Hwacha's doing a good job then you're better off with this loadout than double hwachas
- You have a 10 degree advantage with the carronade and it is possible to ward off other carronade ships attempting to pop your balloon so long as you rise the carro in arc before it's too late.
Cons:
- You need all 3 crewmembers to commit to this to make it work, making other components more vulnerable as your engis cant give them a whack in time and limiting your mobility options as helm tools will reduce your firepower.
- You only have a single ranged option (Hwacha w/ Heavy Clip) and are prone to being sniped
- By using carronade you force yourself to lose your height advantage in order to keep your damage output on the said ship, which leaves you prone to getting balloon popped yourself as it shaves off time you take to hit the ground in that case and allows you to be attacked from many more angles (ie, gat mortar pyra sitting above you)
Double Hwachas: (With gat)
- Your gunner can alternate between the two hwachas, negating the reload times and doing a consistent stream of damage
- No balloon pops ensure you keep the high ground, making this build very effective for area control
- You have two long ranged options now and another engineer can man the hwacha in the event someone is making an attempt to outsnipe you
- The gunner is able to reserve the other hwacha for an armor break, giving them an on-demand hull health damage. He can also wait until the armor break with both guns, alternating between them to deal devastating permahull damage.
Cons:
- The 10 degree difference in arcs makes you a bit more vulnerable to carronades as a squid/goldfish can easily rush a (gentle) ram down your balloon and pop you to the ground before you manage to get arcs
- Your slow speed of the rockets and a lack of balloon popping abillity will ensure that good mobula pilots will have a rather easy time dealing with you and junkers have more chance to dodge/balloon block you at mid-long ranges
- If your first hwacha gets good hits on the enemy then your second hwacha will be redundant until your enemy's armor breaks. Speaking of which...
What do you guys think about Hwacha+Heavy Flak + Gat galleon? I see a lot of new galleon pilots employing this loadout and I thought it was trash until I saw it in a high level match. Lochnagar and Incendiary seem to compliment the rest of the weapons fairly well. I'm eager to hear the community's say on this specific loadout aswell.
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Hwatcha flak can be very effective against Pyramidions due to their susceptibility to piercing + explosive. A pyra pilot can however hydro up and stay above arcs while at close range (a problem against most ships with any Galleon loadout but pyras are fast and can ram balloon). A flak pairs well with a carro on the opposite side due to ammo similarities. An advantage of hwatcha flak is range potential, lesmok gat can even have a use.
Hwatcha carronade is significantly more effective than just double hwatcha but is limited by the reasons you described. I wouldn't be too worried about them falling too fast after being popped. As long as you keep a spot you can keep up the pressure and advantage. Because you're describing a brawl Galleon I wouldn't worry about needing extra range with double hwatcha. The carro and gat have a very similar range.
Unless you're facing heavy disables I'd recommend a buff engi or two downstairs. Gun buffs now last a significant time and buffed engines are always good. One brawl loadout I have enjoyed is artemis double carro. A bit silly but effective.
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I don't do competitive. Keep that in mind as you read.
When I run a brawler Galleon, I almost always run hwacha hwacha. Here are some reasonings:
Your average gunner cannot efficiently utilize Hwacha/H.Carronade. Hwacha/hwacha, any decent gunner can get out a good efficiency out.
Galleon is a big ship with large components. Galleon is also a slow ship. You always want the maximum mobility. You want your two engineers repairing. With Hwacha/H.Carronade, which an average gunner cannot efficiently utilize, an engineer will be tempted (not wrongly) to aid the inefficient gunner. That temptation is extremely dangerous, especially in a brawl. With hwacha/hwacha, your engineer will never end up on a gun; it'll always be reloading.
The most common build in your average match is the metamidion. Galleon is inherently disadvantaged against a metamidion; it's a slow, large target. The best counter against a metamidion is the Hwacha. However, enemy engineers can revue the pyramidion faster than the hwacha can reload. Hence, you want the second hwacha to out disable the enemy engineer's repair.
Hwacha/H.Carro, Hwacha/H.Flak, etc. etc. Are very effective Galleon builds, but on a average Match Made game, Hwacha Hwacha is the easiest, most effective, and most efficient build.
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Many ship combos i see have a brawl side of only a carronade and a hwatcha. No light gun.
Leaving the left side for longer range guns- as long range hull strip exists only as a light gun.
This works because one hwatcha burst shot disables a ship. Heavy carronade pops the balloon. But fun fact- heavy carronade has the fastest hull strip in the game. So in those 2 guns you have every damage type you would ever need.
However if a hades or a mercury is too long range- then lesmok gatling is a good choice in light gun.
But as for brawl guns on the light gun side:
Ightrill's galleon has all carronades even a light one- that is horrific to fight against.
Melon McCrabernathy (god rest his soul) had hwatcha/carro/flamer the thought behind it being no balloon no components and fire on rebuild. For AMAZING disable power.
Harpoon/Double Hwatcha is fun pull em close and BOOOOOOM.
I've also seen builds with an explosive light gun and 2 carronades. But never flown with this before.
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Ightrills all carronade galleon.
Just carronades. Nothing else.
Very effective.
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Ightrills all carronade galleon.
Just carronades. Nothing else.
Very effective.
Learn to hades/fly below
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I really want to try all carronades now.
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I can see it being devestating. Havent seen one myself though. Or tried it.
I would imagine a good buff condition to the side engines with pheonix claw as close range brawling requiers quicker movement.
The heavy flak in no doubt is for the kill. And probably is a fast kill with a greased gattling with a hwacha firing at the enemy ship.
Here is a galleon build i propose looking at, i dont think it is as viable but it is more of a mid range playuh.
Side hades and dual heavy flaks.
One does steady firing with the hades while another main engineer multitasks 2 heavy flaks.
This build does not requier timing at all. The main engineer simply hops back and forth between the 2 heavy flaks shooting 2 shots every time. It is like 1 heavy flak without a reload. Every heavy flak shot does aprox 100 armor damage or so, so constant firing will eventualy lead to a kill especialy if the hades fire is true. Pair that main engineer with lochnagar for super close range situations. But you have no idea how fun it is to be the pperson to fire those two heavy flaks. It seriously is one heavy flak with no reload.
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I think I'll try that All carronade build. I guess I'll need vent chutes to match the enemy drop.
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Unless the enemy is a blender fish, then you'll find yourselves on a similar drop path :)
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I think he brings chute vent, yes.
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I stick to Carronade, Manticore both sides with a Gatling gun side mine launcher rear for my brawling Galleon. The Ideal engagement goes: 1st volly manticore knocks out the guns, Gat + Carronade strips armor in the time it takes the manticore to reload, 2nd volly manticore kills them.
If I get into a 2v1 I tell the carronade to pop one of the target's balloons while I try to rise out. The Gat & Manticore keeps focus on the other ship who hopefully insists on pressing the attack even though their ally can't help them.
Fighting 2x mantcore galleons is done by putting both bottom deck crew on repairing the cannonade, and flying like a very low maneuverability blender fish.
Fighting Blederfish and Flame squids is done by ordering the entire crew up to the top deck to tank the hull and balloon. Gunner shoots the mine launchers which I try to get in arc by flying forward with what ever engines I have left. It is far from ideal but if you are going to put your hopes into a light gun saving your ship it had better be a mine launcher.
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I have a Galleon with Heavy Flak, Hwacha and Lesmok Gatling one side and on the other two Heavy Carronades. Btw, The only back gun viable for Galleons is a harpoon or some loch mines or whatever people use in these things on Galleons.
I always wanted to make a Heavy Carronade/Heavy Flak one work, but I never really bothered to put effort into it.
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I stick to Carronade, Manticore both sides with a Gatling gun side mine launcher rear for my brawling Galleon. The Ideal engagement goes: 1st volly manticore knocks out the guns, Gat + Carronade strips armor in the time it takes the manticore to reload, 2nd volly manticore kills them.
If I get into a 2v1 I tell the carronade to pop one of the target's balloons while I try to rise out. The Gat & Manticore keeps focus on the other ship who hopefully insists on pressing the attack even though their ally can't help them.
Fighting 2x mantcore galleons is done by putting both bottom deck crew on repairing the cannonade, and flying like a very low maneuverability blender fish.
Fighting Blederfish and Flame squids is done by ordering the entire crew up to the top deck to tank the hull and balloon. Gunner shoots the mine launchers which I try to get in arc by flying forward with what ever engines I have left. It is far from ideal but if you are going to put your hopes into a light gun saving your ship it had better be a mine launcher.
Not really, with a light carronade on the back as long as the enemy doesnt get a fairly high position above your balloon, you can essentially "counter-pop" them. Flamer spreads panic across the squid with it's spread out systems without chemspray (obv.) and harpoons lets you ram kill spires and mobulas
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I don't fly with a light carronade, I was referring to the bottom deck heavy carronade. All your guns are going to break if a galleon gets 2 Hwachas on you, but 2 crewmembers can rebuild 1 gun and use it faster than the hwachas can reload. My point was that Carro Hwacha can't out DPS 2 Hwachas, but taking out the enemy's balloon will allow you to fight on your own terms.
My rear gun is a mine launcher. If you can hit with it, the mine launcher does a better job of getting blender fish and squid off your ship than flame, carronade, or harpoon.
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For those who want to see an all carro galleon goto this link and skip to about 1 hour 40.
http://youtu.be/Q23abRizvag
(I kept leaving the galleon and being too aggressive but you get to see an all carro galleon!)
8)
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For those who want to see an all carro galleon goto this link and skip to about 1 hour 40.
http://youtu.be/Q23abRizvag
(I kept leaving the galleon and being too aggressive but you get to see an all carro galleon!)
8)
All I can tell you is
UCHIKUDAKE!!!
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The whole event is fun to watch, the streamers had loads of fun, a great event at such short notice too!
A shame we never got around to the public matches, but hopefully Brick and his jolly crew can arrange another event some time!
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Managed to play a brawler Galleon with dual H.Carronade on the port(light gun) side.
I was lagging horrbily (thanks to a mobula who went all flare), but we managed to do amazing things. For example, we pulled off a 2v4 (although the fourth ship was all flare mobula), downed two, and escaped without a scratch.
Nice build, since the enemy can never rise up. This is like two blenderfishes. Way better than hwacha hwacha.
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Ightrills all carronade galleon.
Just carronades. Nothing else.
Very effective.
You forgot the rear LochnaMine Launcher to get rid of pesky blenderships sitting behind the balloon...
Moonshine + Chute Vent (+ engine buffs) for the most enjoyment of course.
Have also had success with Hwacha/Hwacha/Gat and Hwacha/Flak/Gat (Heavy Clip gat and Loch flak when I've used it, just my preference).
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Ightrills all carronade galleon.
Just carronades. Nothing else.
Very effective.
You forgot the rear LochnaMine Launcher to get rid of pesky blenderships sitting behind the balloon...
Moonshine + Chute Vent (+ engine buffs) for the most enjoyment of course.
Have also had success with Hwacha/Hwacha/Gat and Hwacha/Flak/Gat (Heavy Clip gat and Loch flak when I've used it, just my preference).
The streamer expected you to have a mine on the rear and to his surprise. "Oh! It is another carronade!"
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Ightrills all carronade galleon.
Just carronades. Nothing else.
Very effective.
You forgot the rear LochnaMine Launcher to get rid of pesky blenderships sitting behind the balloon...
Because All Carronades would just be silly. :P ;D
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Ightrills all carronade galleon.
Just carronades. Nothing else.
Very effective.
You forgot the rear LochnaMine Launcher to get rid of pesky blenderships sitting behind the balloon...
Because All Carronades would just be silly. :P ;D
Exactly, where's the use in it?
Ightrills all carronade galleon.
Just carronades. Nothing else.
Very effective.
You forgot the rear LochnaMine Launcher to get rid of pesky blenderships sitting behind the balloon...
Moonshine + Chute Vent (+ engine buffs) for the most enjoyment of course.
Have also had success with Hwacha/Hwacha/Gat and Hwacha/Flak/Gat (Heavy Clip gat and Loch flak when I've used it, just my preference).
The streamer expected you to have a mine on the rear and to his surprise. "Oh! It is another carronade!"
Definitely had a rear mine in that match, fairly sure I've never gone 100% carronade with a Galleon.
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For me its gotta be;
Port side: Hades, Double flak. The reason i have double flak is because i want to imagine its a boat firing cannons one at a time and when the last round has been fired the first cannon i ready again xD
Starboard side: Double hwacha. or Hwacha and Carronade
Aft side: Mine launcher, Stick that with tar is a sneaky surprise ;)
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Left side double buffed loch carronades and greased in the mortar. Pilot needs shine. You ram the enemy down the left hand side and unload the buffed loch carros into the hull as they bounce past. Engineer repairs the initial impact damage and hops on the mortar shooting during the hull break (ram plus double buffed loch carronades usually does this).
I'm not saying it 'works', but it is a fun nerf build you can get kills with and it is good for practising galleon rams.
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I have a new brawler build. 8)
Left side double minotaur with Hades/Banshee/Artemis/Mine.
Right side double H-Carro.
8)
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I have a new brawler build. 8)
Left side double minotaur with Hades/Banshee/Artemis/Mine.
Right side double H-Carro.
8)
I'm pretty sure they all have arming time. Maybe not the best "brawler" build.
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I have a new brawler build. 8)
Left side double minotaur with Hades/Banshee/Artemis/Mine.
Right side double H-Carro.
8)
I'm pretty sure they all have arming time. Maybe not the best "brawler" build.
Only the Hades has arming time, and with greased the arming time is relatively short, and given the height of the Hades placement, it keeps in good arming time, also with the Minotaurs pushing the enemy away, more arming time..
Mines have arming time, but given Loch, its a very short arming time.
And contrary to popular belief, Artemis and banshee do not suffer from arming times, they are very effective weapons are long-mid-short range.
Also Minotaur shoots like a carronade, so no issues there...
Right hand heavy carros... I see no problems there...
So it works as brawler.
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I have a new brawler build. 8)
Left side double minotaur with Hades/Banshee/Artemis/Mine.
Right side double H-Carro.
8)
I'm pretty sure they all have arming time. Maybe not the best "brawler" build.
Only the Hades has arming time, and with greased the arming time is relatively short, and given the height of the Hades placement, it keeps in good arming time, also with the Minotaurs pushing the enemy away, more arming time..
Mines have arming time, but given Loch, its a very short arming time.
And contrary to popular belief, Artemis and banshee do not suffer from arming times, they are very effective weapons are long-mid-short range.
Also Minotaur shoots like a carronade, so no issues there...
Right hand heavy carros... I see no problems there...
So it works as brawler.
That is not a brawler build Kamoba, that is a borderline annoying build made specifically to counter blenderfishes you evil helm-steerer :'(
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I have a Galleon with Heavy Flak, Hwacha and Lesmok Gatling one side and on the other two Heavy Carronades. Btw, The only back gun viable for Galleons is a harpoon or some loch mines or whatever people use in these things on Galleons.
I always wanted to make a Heavy Carronade/Heavy Flak one work, but I never really bothered to put effort into it.
The Flack, Hwatcha, and lesmock gat is what I consider to be the current meta when it comes to brawling galleons. very op if you have good gunners.
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I have a new brawler build. 8)
Left side double minotaur with Hades/Banshee/Artemis/Mine.
Right side double H-Carro.
8)
I'm pretty sure they all have arming time. Maybe not the best "brawler" build.
Only the Hades has arming time, and with greased the arming time is relatively short, and given the height of the Hades placement, it keeps in good arming time, also with the Minotaurs pushing the enemy away, more arming time..
Mines have arming time, but given Loch, its a very short arming time.
And contrary to popular belief, Artemis and banshee do not suffer from arming times, they are very effective weapons are long-mid-short range.
Also Minotaur shoots like a carronade, so no issues there...
Right hand heavy carros... I see no problems there...
So it works as brawler.
That is not a brawler build Kamoba, that is a borderline annoying build made specifically to counter blenderfishes you evil helm-steerer :'(
Although I've just discovered I was wrong about the arming times on the minotaur's!
150 meters (Thanks Zan for the numbers)
Apologies to indreams.
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Apology is unnecessary.
Arming range of 150m is pretty much nothing. Brawler Galleon usually fights at a range greater than 150m because a galleon engages sideways.
So minotaur qualifies as a brawler gun, but I think it's really meant to be a long-range gun.
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Without the visible projectile it'll be hard for players to judge the shots to be truly long range and will find its home brawling, though it does work at range! (Just not easy to see where to aim if you miss.)
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Without the visible projectile it'll be hard for players to judge the shots to be truly long range and will find its home brawling, though it does work at range! (Just not easy to see where to aim if you miss.)
From playing and watching today I find it truly shines at long range control. With some more practice you'll find it's a very easy gun to use. Buff heavy is meta.
I love using it and I even find it entertaining to be shot by, but it needs some balance in its current state. It's a powerful counter to established hardcounters. Spires and galleons now counter mobulas. This is fine but it seems a bit too powerful.
I've been liking hades flak mino. Lumber mino flak/art is fun. But double mino flak/art is great against other long range galleons. One shot of buff heavy breaks any component and it prevents you from ever being shot for more than a few seconds. Because there are no tracers you can be a stealth galleon. It's a slow kill but very effective. The arcs and shot speed let you move while shooting.
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You can run a really good support ship with mino mino galleon. I imagine it will shine as the defense ship when the oil-rig mode is implemented.
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If you fit a heavy carronade and a heavy flak on the same side of your Galleon you can kill most ships in 3 shots. Buff the carroande and use charged ammo to brake the hull and than use a buffed loch shot form the flak to kill it.
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If you fit a heavy carronade and a heavy flak on the same side of your Galleon you can kill most ships in 3 shots. Buff the carroande and use charged ammo to brake the hull and than use a buffed loch shot form the flak to kill it.
Imho a good nerf to h carro would be a mild damage reductipn below 30%,which would change the blenderfish meta for good. You either load heavy and snipe out components or you switch to charged and actually 2shot balloons from a more reasonable range than heavy. Carro was never intended to strip armor from what I can see.
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Don't speak of nerfing H-carro!
We've been hurt enough by nerfs recently.
(Though it is awesome to see how few pyramidions fill the skies now, its a big shame to see the ship now redundant..
Blackened Pies: Yes I had Daniel on minotaur galleon yesterday, the evil cackles over the mic spoke for themselves.. :)
Though admittedly I was piloting terribly last night..
I miss Sky Slicer already... *cries*
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A "nerf" to carronades against armor would have been changing the shatter modifier on the armor, for it is because of the carronade's shatter damage it is able to damage armor and hull as well as it does.
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and that would nerf the gattling and artemis and etc :P
I think Minotaur long range is NOT good. Once pilots get the idea that Moonshine renders a minotaurs push effect useless, youl want to be more unpredictable with the shots.
The easiest way and most effecient way of being unpredictable is up close where all the shots come in one and use greased or other ammo types.
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and that would nerf the gattling and artemis and etc :P
Then up the Gatling's amount of piercing damage? Even though that piercing damge alone should be enough to get rid of most armors without the help of it's secondary shatter damage. And the Artemis is not supposed to destroy armor anyway, so I can't see that one as a nerf.
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Shatter is damage versus components. Ofcourse artemis isnt for the armor, its for the components and hull.
Decrese shatter damage, nerfs all weapons with shatter the ability to destroy components.
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A "nerf" to carronades against armor would have been changing the shatter modifier on the armor,...
This is not talking about shatter damage against components, silly.
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Oh Crap! I forget!
Modifiers are more specific XD
Shatter allready does 0.2 on armor. changing it down to 0.1 would halven its armor braking capabilities.
Well gotta admit, i dont know how much that would actualy change. But the abundance of shatter damage on carronade or minotaur/mercury will be split in half.