Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Devinstater on November 01, 2014, 11:16:35 pm
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Everytime I get match made the captain tries to force an engineer loadout onto me and then I deal with 5 minutes of theory crafting as to why gunner is useless.
The ship cannot function properly without a captain or an enigneer, is it too much to ask to do the same with the most fun role of GOIO, shooting?
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This is one of the main religious schisms of GOI, there are a few epic-sized threads about it. Most people agree you need a gunner on really difficult guns like lumberjack, and don't need one on really simple guns like gatling. It all depends on ship and gun loadout.
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This is one of the main religious schisms of GOI, there are a few epic-sized threads about it. Most people agree you need a gunner on really difficult guns like lumberjack, and don't need one on really simple guns like gatling. It all depends on ship and gun loadout.
Even to that you'll find people who argue that one single ammo type and a buff hammer is all you need for virtually every single gun in the game.
My opinion is, if it's not competitive you are free to do however you like. Cooperation is important though and the captain/pilot is the leader. Following orders is important. You could always go to a different ship if you do not wish to do as your captain tells you. Me personally, I will tell them my opinion and what I would do if I feel that what they're telling me to do is bad but I will follow orders nevertheless. The captain is the one who makes the final decisions on the ship.
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The ship cannot function properly without a captain or an enigneer
A ship can't function without at least TWO engineers.
is it too much to ask to do the same with the most fun role of GOIO, shooting?
...did you know that engineers can also shoot guns? And in fact, generally can shoot MORE, because they can keep their guns repaired effectively and not on fire without relying on an engineer to extinguish it for you?
A gunner doesn't necessarily shoot more. A gunner just is less flexible in terms of being able to repair. Extra ammo types aren't really that important. The vast majority of guns have one single ideal ammo type (or at least ideal for the build and circumstance).
I don't know who originally said it, but there's a quote: "Gunner is a binary class, 1 or 0," meaning that a ship works effectively with either 1 or 0 gunners. Having an engineer loadout doesn't change your role at all -- you're still there to shoot the dickens out of the enemies and out-damage them.
Some guns, like lumberjack, heavy flak, and mine launcher, really do benefit from having three ammo types to choose from. Hwacha and hades also to some extent, but it depends on the map, build, and pilot -- sometimes just one extra ammo as an engi will suffice.
Not being gunner CLASS doesn't mean you are on guns any less. It just means your loadout is more flexible and you're more independent and don't have to rely on an engi to keep your guns chem sprayed. It also potentially frees you up to have a buff hammer along with pipe wrench and extinguisher/chem so you can buff your own gun and deal additional damage.
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There are huge discussions over the usefulness of gunners, however I would like to address the hatred of gunners (as stated in the thread topic). New players default to gunner so when one joins your ship they will probably not know what to do or even how the weapons work. I have had the privilege of flying with some mighty fine gunners who pull off match making plays, but many times the gunners that are assigned to my crew are paste eating simpletons. I have to either spoon feed easy shots to them or watch in disgust as they dump entire magazines into empty sky. Sometimes they just run around getting in the engineer's way and I can't tell an engineer to take over a gun because we are taking too much fire.
So when your captain is giving you grief for being a gunner, keep in mind that it is very easy for a novice gunner to mess up an otherwise solid ship.
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Because Powder Monkeys...
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/b13302440a3af8a31b792ca0f48707eb/tumblr_nd7aeg3tWr1tkbbvfo2_r1_500.gif)
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All you have to do is change ship or leave the lobby - don't let them con you into running round in circles hitting the same components in the same patten with chem-spray over and over - its boring as shit! They tell you lies like "engineers shoot the guns also/the engineers shoot the guns even more/engineers are more useful." I'm friends with many veteran engineers and ultimately they all tell me - "Engineering is boring I want to shoot more" to which I reply - "I know, I'm sorry for you, but I knew this all along."
Get yourself on a good ship with a good pilot who knows how to use a gunner, The only 2 ships where you're not welcome are the metamidion and metajunker "hades art art, gat mortar/carro banshee\flamer" (the two most god-damn boring in the game, its not like you're missing much) every other ship with any combination of guns will perform better with your presence over that of a third engineer. If they try to tell you otherwise, remember the pilot doesn't know what they're doing and you should probably leave (don't listen to their lies).
As a bonus while you practice gunning you'll learn something these engineers are oblivious to and many will never learn - they're too busy looking at the hull/engines/balloon, while you can see what's actually happening throughout the game concentrating on the guns and looking at the enemies - you'll learn the maps so well that you can orient yourself instantly and you can see the mistakes and successes of the pilots better than they can themselves. In-turn, you'll become not only a gunner but also a pilot of quality.
Edit: Don't forget, they only hate because they're jealous of you having fun shooting the guns.
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Beautiful Geo. Beautiful.
Take my salutes.
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I generally don't like being a gunner because I don't like the feeling of the ship falling apart behind me and all I can really do is shoot.
Then you get the cases of the pmonkeys who try to tell me what I should be fixing when. "You are engineer. You fix things. I am a gunner. I don't fix things. Stop shooting and repair the balloon (3/4 full)."
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As a long time member of the all engineer master race cult I will say generally I try and make sure players who wanted to be gunners that I have play as engineer get to be the roles that predominantly shoot. Bottom deck junker, top right pyra. I definitely try to avoid having someone who wants to gun be solely a hull engineer.
The often quoted made up statistic is that at the end of the day Engineers can do 90% of what a gunner can do, while a gunner can do 50% of what an engineer can do. There a times where that limitation really shines in favor of the gunner but those are generally more advanced ships and roles. However that only comes into play with really specific builds and really skilled gunners. If I don't know you, have no read on your skill, I am not going to specialize my ship around you.
Ever flown a lumberfish with a bad gunner who can't shoot the lumberjack? Its truly unfun.
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As a long time member of the all engineer master race cult I will say generally I try and make sure players who wanted to be gunners that I have play as engineer get to be the roles that predominantly shoot. Bottom deck junker, top right pyra. I definitely try to avoid having someone who wants to gun be solely a hull engineer.
The often quoted made up statistic is that at the end of the day Engineers can do 90% of what a gunner can do, while a gunner can do 50% of what an engineer can do. There a times where that limitation really shines in favor of the gunner but those are generally more advanced ships and roles. However that only comes into play with really specific builds and really skilled gunners. If I don't know you, have no read on your skill, I am not going to specialize my ship around you.
Ever flown a lumberfish with a bad gunner who can't shoot the lumberjack? Its truly unfun.
Meticulous engineering is truly unfun too.
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In regards to your question Devinstater I think it depends on the strategy of the captain.
For instance if I was using a metamidian I would tend to lean towards 3 engineers since one additional ammo type (from the standard ones on every gun) is necessary to make striking attacks with an aggressive ship build like that - having the additional engineer to buff the gattling gun is also a nice plus. However if I go with builds that include mine launchers, lumberjacks, even Hwachas then for those instances I would tend to bring along a gunner so that the player can better utilize the variety of ammo types available for various situations (Hwacha with heavy clip is great for longer distance precision shots while using up).
So all in all its really based on the tactics and necessity for a crew member to utilize the extra ammo slots for their role in shooting.
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Yep, chem spraying is boring. Nobody should do it and we should all be gunners so we have an excuse to not fix or extinguish anything.
TBH, I feel like having an excuse to not fix anything is the reason a lot of newer players want to be gunners, rather than having a good reason for the ammo types they are carrying. Yep, it's nice and fun to have shooting as your only responsibility. It's my favorite role. But if the build my captain has chosen doesn't require a gunner, I'm not going to argue it because I want a bullet symbol next to my name instead of a wrench.
If you have a gun that is your responsibility to shoot, your role does not change if your class does, merely what you are carrying. If you're a gungineer, you're not running around chem cycling. You're shooting. Being an engineer doesn't mean you are the main engineer.
If you're dead-set on gunning, find a ship that needs a gunner. Or ask your captain! "Can I have a mine launcher?" or "Can I have a heavy flak?" are questions I ask a lot of captains I know.
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On the contrary to the Gunner is bad theme, I like to have a gunner on the ship.
I've had too many games with three engineers and no one shooting.
I've yelled these few too many times: SHOT SOMETHING! STOP BUFFING THE BALLOON! THAT SQUID IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF OUR HWACHA!
So, in a pub match, I want a gunner because the gunner is shooting something most of the time. Of course, a coordinated group of three engineers are probably the best crew set. Heck, I've seen four-engineer crew do well.
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This is why I don't let people under level, say, 20, have a buffkit on my ships. They get obsessed with their buffing 'chieves and you end up with nobody shooting.
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This is why I don't let people under level, say, 20, have a buffkit on my ships. They get obsessed with their buffing 'chieves and you end up with nobody shooting.
I'm honestly surprised that some people care achieves enough to refuse to listen to their captain and bring that one wrong ammo, no fire control, or even repair tools sometimes. You can level up normally now dammit!
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What's more, winning matches is like 20x more efficient than grinding achievements if you want to level up asap
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I read a few of the comments here, but I will post my own reply to the original post.
People who "hate" gunners do so because they have absolutely no frakking idea how to use them.
A good gunner, with the right rounds goes a very long way, on pretty much ANY ship, with ANY loadout.
Read Geo's post on page 1 for a really good description.
To reiterate,
Only the boring ships require 3 engineers (with the exception of the Mobula, but even that is up for debate...)
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I find the mobula is the only ship I run where I want 3 engineers to overcome how hard it is to repair, all other ships I want a gunner because they add versatility provided they take the right rounds.
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because
- Start out as an Engineer:
Learn what the ship can sustain
Learn to identify incoming damage types by sound
Notice what kind and how much damage which pilot tool does
Learn how to quickly and efficiently shoot while still being on constant repair rounds
- Become a Gunner:
Learn the different guns and what damage they do, where to aim at them, and how to time them right
Learn the different gun arcs!
Learn ammo types: range, damage, clip size and finally, what gun they do what on!
Use and utilize your engineering skills to NOTICE WHEN YOUR GUN IS DAMAGED AND REPAIR IT YOURSELF
- Become a Pilot
Learn what pilot tools do and how they feel, what difference they make
Learn what pilot tool is the one that helps you the most on each ship
Try interesting load outs with your knowledge as a gunner and test your ability to pull them off
Learn the maps and figure out different strategies with different ships, and different ally ships
Learn to communicate with your co-pilot, and learn to adapt to their possibly poor choices
Learn how to be a captain: explain and share your knowledge with newer players and tell your crew what you plan to do or achieve in this match!
- NOW GO BACK ALL THESE STEPS AND DO ALL THESE JOBS AS AN ENGINEER WITH SIMPLY ONE TOOL TO MAKE YOUR JOB EASIER AND BUFF AND TANK LIKE A BOSS
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I would add to 2 with:
Learn when to stop shooting and start fixing. If your hull and balloon are down, and engines are broken, your pilot will never get you the shot.
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I was just thinking that one of the main reasons people are often wary about taking a gunner is fire. A gunner cannot take fire suppression because it would leave them unable to repair/repair their own gun, which is a higher priority because it's easier for an engineer to run by and throw a chem or extinguish on than rebuild/repair every time the gun is damaged or goes down.
I've argued quite a bit for nerfing fire, and I think doing so would help make gunners more viable. Not having to worry so much about fire or perfectly chem cycling would make it easier to rely on just one engineering tool. It would make ships with less experienced engineers that aren't as dutiful at chem spraying able to deal with a ship that has a gunner -- how many times have you played in a pub match with randoms and had, say, your bottom deck junker guns sprayed? Whenever that (rarely and miraculously) happens to me it's like seeing a unicorn.
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They had fire nerfed, it didn't help gunners at all. No one wanted them.
A buff to heatsink might change that. If heatsink had better suppression on guns then it would work as a form of chemming and gunners might be a bit more viable.
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what if loading heatsink would extinguish and chem the gun. no matter the stacks?
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Lordy I seemed to have hit on a sensitive topic.
Hamster taught me how to gun when I first started, hi man.
You guys are right, it is mostly pyramid demons (haha auto correct, I left that in) that want me to switch to engineer. I've been hopping onto ships with longer range guns and people are more receptive to having a gunner.
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Pyramid Demons.
I..
Perfect. Just perfect.
I love it.
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All in favor of adopting Pyramid Demons as GOIO jargon say "Aye!"
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Aye!
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Devinstater you are making me feel old. The value of a gunner is something that has been hotly debated with no satisfactory conclusion. By my levels you can safely guess I fall into the anti gunner camp.
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Aye!
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Soooo ignoring the last 5 posts which are basically spam, heatsink buff, do want!
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Soooo ignoring the last 5 posts which are basically spam, heatsink buff, do want!
Why buff something that is already a bit broken. If you load heatsink preemptively the fire suppression lasts forever while it's loaded which in itself is a bit game breaking.
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But not during reloads
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Heatsink needs no buff - infinite no maintenance fire protection - the ability to lower arming distance with higher damage per clip - not to mention the 3 stack extinguish - 3 FLARES, 3 FUCKING FLARES. God damn I love heat-sink clip.
Fun fact - its currently my "most used tool" according to my gunner stats, and I'm proud of it. :3
(http://i.imgur.com/zUNFni0.jpg)
Anyone else kinda sad that the gunner stats don't track accuracy any more?
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Anyone else kinda sad that the gunner stats don't track accuracy any more?
It probably still does but it's now hidden.
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Yeah I already use heatsink all the time. It's fantastic!
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noting relaxes me more than a gunner that can use heatsink properly.
but it's still not better than a buff engineer and some good well practiced crew ammo rotation.
i get such a kick out of goldfish with 3 different ammo types on engineers.
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i get such a kick out of goldfish with 3 different ammo types on engineers.
Yeah! I mean who uses normal rounds on the side guns, right? So you obviously need the gunner to carry the rest of the ammo types.
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i get such a kick out of goldfish with 3 different ammo types on engineers.
Yeah! I mean who uses normal rounds on the side guns, right? So you obviously need the gunner to carry the rest of the ammo types.
That incendiary light carronade gets them erry time.
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noting relaxes me more than a gunner that can use heatsink properly.
but it's still not better than a buff engineer and some good well practiced crew ammo rotation.
i get such a kick out of goldfish with 3 different ammo types on engineers.
Ah, if only...
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Only three? I carry a backup ammo type as well as pilot. :)
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Man not these again. I need a Sunderland if this is going to get all serious.
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Man not these again. I need a Sunderland if this is going to get all serious.
You're all serious
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Man not these again. I need a Sunderland if this is going to get all serious.
You're all serious
I can never take these debates seriously anymore after 20 of them ending in the same fashion of nothingness. Chalk it up to personal preference, and move on.
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Just 20 Zill?
I can atleast remember 10 during my beta times and 20+ after coming back :D.
Seems you avoided alot of those debates.
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Never saw them in Beta, but then again I wasnt a regular to the forums at that point either.
I did avoid a bunch of them. After me and Sunderland came to an impasse, it was clear to me that I wasnt going to be persuaded, nor persuade any stalwart supporters of all engies. And they all end in generally the same manner.
personal preference
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Lots of reasons folks get asked to switch from gunner, but I'm going to assume this is in response to the known "three engi master race" / "gunner oppressed minority" schism (since almost everyone agrees that more than one gunner on a ship is foolhardy for all except the most exotic of builds).
First let me be open as to where I sit here, for most builds with perfect crews I think 3 engineers works better than having a gunner. You will notice the assumption 'for perfect crews', if you have one of these can I borrow it?
Even with that said, I'm going to make a case for captains (especially captains in pick up games) being more willing to run with a gunner. Advantages of having a gunners (when your crew is not made of magic space juices):
1) Encourages the gunner to keep shooting.
Unless we are trying to flee having one person looking for shooting opportunities (and spotting) rather than trying to fix things is a minimum. If I don't have the tools to be useful fixing stuff then I'm less likely to do it. Plus my role makes it clear what I'm supposed to do, gun. You get something of a mental block to fixing things if that clearly isn't your job.
2) Crew ownership of the boat
You want the crew to think of the ship as theirs. They helped pick their roles, the guns, the tactics. I find crews fight better if they are implementing our plan rather than my plan. Because it can be a fun role odds are pretty good one of your crew will want to go gunner. If you let them you might find they fight a little harder for you.
3) Keeping crews together
A five match old crew fights much better than one freshly formed. Once the crew starts to gel performance generally improves, but how do you keep a crew together? Let them do the things they want, and one of them probably wants to use lots of ammo types and shoot stuff, that is, be a gunner. Sure the mystical perfect crew with none of the trappings of human psychology could operate your boat better by going total airship combat and rotating out the roles like some crazy Dutch sky ballet, but is that something you are going to get from that level 6 gunner who just joined the ship?
Now with that said I think there are lots of cases when a new player should be willing to switch from gunner:
1) Ship already has a gunner.
Unless I'm doing something crazy I don't need two gunners. I'm happy for you to stay as an engineer, and I don't mind if you go to another ship, but those are the two options.
2) Load-out will be seriously suboptimal with a gunner
Some have said the only builds suboptimal with a gunner are the metamidion and the meta-junker, I don't buy this. On Crazy King my squid doesn't need a gunner because killing things aint my job. This isn't super common (most ships will function just fine with a gunner or with a third engineer and the human element messes up the min-maxing calculus the two religious factions here engage in, metamidion being a good example; if you have a good gunner a gunner can be better, a good engineer and an engineer can be better), but if you look at a ship and cant think of a decent reason for a second ammo / third ammo type then you want to switch, or find another ship.
3) This match will end poorly if I have to train you
Some guns are hard to shoot. If this is game number 4 for you or your answer to 'have you fired a lumberjack before?' is 'what's a lumberjack?' I'm probably going to either swap load outs or get a more experienced crew member to gun unless our opposition is weak. I like to train newcomers but dumping a load of pressure on you with a pivotal role when you are inexperienced is unfair and unfun. This is only likely to happen if I know my crew is invested in the load out I've picked since I usually gear the load out to the crew, not vice versa. If that isn't the case I will leave you as gunner if that is what you want and find you a more gentle introduction to the art of making metal sky confetti.
Unless training for a competitive game most of the time the solution to this problem, to the extent that there is a problem here, is for folks to be a bit flexible and try to find a ship configuration that makes everyone at least somewhat happy.