Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hoja Lateralus on October 04, 2014, 04:55:04 pm
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Last time I saw that galleon is one of the least picked ships on the last Hephaestus Challenge and I started to wonder what is wrong with galleon that people tend not to take it - and I started thinking that maybe heavy guns are somehow underpowered? I'd always imagined that heavy gun is at least as powerful as two small guns - but mostly isn't. Firstly - there's much more possibilities in light guns because...there are more light guns (duuh). Then - it's really hard to kill something using one heavy gun (say, goldfish), harder than with good combo of two light guns (pyramidion, junker, squid). I'm curious what do you guys think....
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I don't think they are underpowered I just wish there was more variety to them.
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Yeah, galleons are traditionally considered to be underpowered, and they're sort of tricky to fly. I think there are a couple of teams that have been using them pretty effectively lately, though
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Because Muse keeps adding arming timers and nerfing heavy guns. Along with that and their inability to move well, just makes pilots shy away.
If a ship is going to be slow, then the guns need to offset that. It is taking a huge risk with lack of mobility and as such, needs a counter with being a ship you avoid at all cost because broadsides hurt. Old GOIO, this was how it was. Pilots learned fast to avoid their gun arcs and flew more evasive because one shot landing could often times ruin your day. Then people freaked out about 2hr artillery battles and next we had range cuts, velocity cuts, arming timers, power nerfs...list goes on.
When heavy guns were at their prime, there was nothing more satisfying than cramming a goldfish up someone's tailpipe and unloading both HF barrels. Ahh...good times.
Course if those get patched back, then Muse also has to patch the light ships back to being a bit more mobile to counter. So they've kinda dug themselves in a hole and Muse has already stated recently that they are happy with how the game is balanced right now. If you don't like it, let them know like I do. If they want to keep it as is, then fine, it is their game. But we need a hardcore mode or something which brings the power and speed back so people have an option. Course there are those that are afraid of that. Not that it wouldn't be a success but because it would. Afraid too many players will migrate to that and not play the original. But for that matter, if that is the case then it would be a clear sign where the design flaws are in GOIO.
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Big Guns are big.
Easy to hit.
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Well which one is it, what's wrong with a galleon, or whats wrong with heavy guns?
Galleon needs a decent ally. That right there makes it risky in itself for pub games. Big blind spots, and a reliance on good shots. Mistakes add up quick on a galleon.
Heavy guns are big, and relatively weak in terms of health, yet take long enough to rebuild that they start becoming not worth it when you have so many. One to focus on isnt as bad. 4? Yea. Light guns just out-do them, if you have two going. The sheer amount of options now for light vs heavy isnt healthy. I was hoping for a new heavy gun before the hades.
Id never agree with Gilder to put it back to the way it was before arming times, but thats just the state of things. It can be done, but it takes more effort, and the counters are many.
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I think the rise of the lumberfish is pretty indicative of the issue with heavy guns. On a Goldfish, there's usually a spare engy to help with the rebuild and you're maneuverable enough to be able to get out of the line of fire or backpedal constantly if need be. On a Galleon, it's almost impossible to keep your guns up if you face any kind of disabling power and the rebuild is so long your enemy is on top of you by the time you get them back up. I think just lowering rebuild time a little on heavy guns would help a lot.
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I don't participate in tournament play so I can't really speak for that aspect of the game. I prefer to take light guns over medium guns because they are more forgiving of novice users. They usually have more shots per minute, so are more forgiving, of the occasional miss. They are also less reliant on multiple types of specialty ammo.
I suspect at higher levels of play medium weapons are easier to counter because they are easier to disable or out fly. Tournament play seems to be pretty conservative (excluding those maniacs in Cake). I expect people are shying away from high risk reward strategies that involve heavy weapons because they don't want to be eliminated from the tourney.
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The current meta is defined by movement. You rarely see teams camp on one or two spots. Reactions and movements are a key part of the game.
So most teams tend to bring maneuverable ships. A slow galleon with sideguns isnt good at that kind of play.
A mobile goldy can do that much better.
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Am i the only one who noticed the rydr's winning the recent sunday community skirmishes with two galleons? Kind of goes against the last few posts.
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I didn't watch those matches, but two galleon's are.....quite easy to counter. By all means, bring them. I know ill have fun.
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I didn't watch those matches, but two galleon's are.....quite easy to counter. By all means, bring them. I know ill have fun.
Why aren't you joining and beating them then? If it's so easy?
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I didn't watch those matches, but two galleon's are.....quite easy to counter. By all means, bring them. I know ill have fun.
Why aren't you joining and beating them then? If it's so easy?
It's MM hibernation season.
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I didn't watch those matches, but two galleon's are.....quite easy to counter. By all means, bring them. I know ill have fun.
Why aren't you joining and beating them then? If it's so easy?
It's MM hibernation season.
I just want to see him do it, since he is so confident about it, and no other team has been successful.
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I never said it was easy to kill them personally. Just easy to counter two galleons.
This isn't a contest. Its a thread on either heavy guns or galleons being weaker plays than, say, stuff with an abundance of light guns, and why.
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I never said it was easy to kill them personally. Just easy to counter two galleons.
This isn't a contest. Its a thread on either heavy guns or galleons being weaker plays than, say, stuff with an abundance of light guns, and why.
That is correct. So if they are so easy to counter, why has no team successfully been able to do so? I'm referring to competitive matches, since that is what most of the forum goers seem to base the balance discussions on. What do you know about countering, that no one else does?
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You cannot focus on only competitive for the sake of a balanced game. Competitive usually just manages to break something really well if it's indeed broken (Think heavy flak before arming times and proper damage modifiers, or 1.0 mercs. Now apply competitive teams.) It can also make things look OP, but in reality they are just being used extremely well in the precise situation that makes them strong. (LJ cries from eons ago?)
Again, I haven't watched those games. I have no idea what others took, nor the builds the galleons used. I never claimed to know more than anyone else. It is my opinion that two galleons are easy to counter. Clearly you think otherwise for your own reasons. Fine by me.
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You cannot focus on only competitive for the sake of a balanced game. Competitive usually just manages to break something really well if it's indeed broken (Think heavy flak before arming times and proper damage modifiers, or 1.0 mercs. Now apply competitive teams.) It can also make things look OP, but in reality they are just being used extremely well in the precise situation that makes them strong. (LJ cries from eons ago?)
Again, I haven't watched those games. I have no idea what others took, nor the builds the galleons used. I never claimed to know more than anyone else. It is my opinion that two galleons are easy to counter. Clearly you think otherwise for your own reasons. Fine by me.
Testify Zill!!
Yes, I'm in agreement. 2 Galleons are easy to counter. I haven't see the matches either but something had to have gone wrong for them to have swept everyone with that build. However, if they played on Duel with that...that could potentially be a decent combo but it would be a situation where you'd be constantly moving and broadsiding, taking advantage of respawns to meat grind them.
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Biggest problem with galleons right now is it only takes one hwacha or one heavy carronade on a goldfish with half-decent positioning to effectively counter one. Or any carronade or disabling build for that matter.
As for heavy guns, they are just too easy to disable. One shot from heavy clip carronade or merc is an instant gun disable, which is bad news for a ship that relies on its heavy guns as its main advantage against lighter, faster ships.
Also I watched a match where the Ryders (double galleon) were taken out by the Thralls (Blenderfish/Pyra) on Paritan a number of weeks ago in SCS.
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Neither galleons nor heavy guns are weak kek, quite the contrary. They just have quite high a skill requirement to fly effectively, which most teams and individuals fail to meet. A well positioned galleon with accurate gunners is nothing you want to be faced against. As usual, though, people are so eager to strongly comment on stuff from a safe distance. If you think a blenderfish can negate a galleon's threat you clearly haven't played on or against a good gally.
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I second what Mezhu said. I'm, maybe, not the best captain in this thread, but good crew makes Galleon do wonders.
Buuut... he also need a decent ally and tactics. If you pick galleon with Hwacha and Carro in Dunes against merk\artemis pyramidion, you will be, of course, in tears.
But in Ambush, or even Paritan Rumble, you can deal a lot of damage, even to experienced crews.
Only thing, that, i think, must be improved - it's, maybe, rebuild time on big guns. But... thats just thought.
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Still very much a noob here, but the few times I have faced a Galleon in matches I was carried to, they were pretty damn effective. I think the first time, the enemy team had 2 Galleons, one all hwacha, back flamer and a merc on the side, the other the heavy flak/hwacha preset, a Blenderfish and a gat/mortar Pyra. We had our Blenderfish, a dual mercury Pyra, Hwacha/Heavy Flak Galleon, and a Lumberfish. I think it ended up 12/10, us. When they weren't being pinned by our Lumberfish/Mercurial Pyra, or having a pirate battle with our Galleon, they blew everything to kingdom freakin' come. As an engineer, I have a tiny spasm of sympathy when someone mentions getting a full broadside from a Galleon.
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Biggest problem with galleons right now is it only takes one hwacha or one heavy carronade on a goldfish with half-decent positioning to effectively counter one. Or any carronade or disabling build for that matter.
I second this, and put forward the addition of lumber fish as an effective counter. I would like to say rather than the medium guns being underpowered (excluding Hflak... unless the hull is down :P But I'm fine with that) that it is the galleon and spire that are countered too easily by anything that can pop a balloon. The fact that three out of four medium guns make a respectable goldfish build means I don't think they need any kind off buff or help
I'm also fine with the medium guns being easy to disable though - if you don't want your guns down you should kill or disable the other ship first.