Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mean Machine on June 07, 2014, 07:35:59 pm
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Hello!
I haven't found topic about this, so I tought I'd make one.
One thing that kinda bothers me are new players (some of them haven't even finished tutorial) getting into advanced matches or however you call non-novice matches. I think that's a bad idea. It's bad for both sides really: "experienced" players probably don't want to spentd every 2nd match explaining to engineers how to properly use tools and to gunners how and when to shoot etc etc.... and new players probably don't want to get destroy by experienced players either. I think it makes a lot of them ragequit or just get an impression that the game is too hard or matchmaking is unfair, so they quit, before they could actually learn the game and get to like it. I think that's really bad and we probably lost quite some players for that.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy to help new players if I can, even tho i'm very new to game as well, but I wouldn't mind helping noobies, if they would ask me to get into sandbox with them and show them how stuff works. But I'm not really excited to explain stuff again and again, while I'm trying to do some more "serious" matches. It's also frustrating that most of these players won't give a single fluff about your orders/advises/suggestions while in match and a lot of them likes to quit mid-match. ::)
EDIT: Forgot to mention my suggestion.. The most logical one to me would be restricting them to novice matches, until they get at least two roles to lvl 4?
What are your toughts about this?
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While this is not a terrible idea in theory, in practice it takes on a whole new realm of inconvenience.
Many new players do skip the tutorials - hopefully that is going to be different soon - and so lack experience. However, if they find their way into an experienced crew that is patient enough to take them under their wing and teach them in a friendly environment, they're much more likely to stay and play more than someone who only plays novice matches and gets bored because they don't understand how to play.
Remember also that sometimes experienced players will encourage their friends to buy the game and join them. Forcing these two players to play apart until sufficient experience has been reached is just absurd. They would be restricted to hanging out in Sandbox. This game's social structure is one of the big factors towards its awesomeness (in my opinion).
Many experienced players with less time on their hands than me will often advise a new player to try a novice game over a regular game anyway. Whether that advice is headed or not is up to the player.
It is topics like these that ought to be discussed though. Matchmaking, upon its arrival, will change a lot about how someone gets into matches and finds crews their own speed. As such, everything is up for grabs in terms of debate about players and their experience.
More opinions - flow forth! :D
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Yeah, I know Jacob, it should be like you said, but unfortunately I'm getting different experience :( First of all, it's a miracle if you convince crew to take right ammo. But ok, that's not the end of the world, but once we're in match and I want to get my gunner on that gatling and he doesn't responds to me... or having both front guns active on pyramidion is very rare occasion with noobies. I found myself facing an enemy without firing a single shot at them and dying few times already. :D
I told that engineer that armor is priority over side guns, but it doesn't help. I tried over voice comm and in chat. And of course there are many more other examples of them failing to listen. I know that's most likely because they are new and they probably don't know how important it is to get the right loadout and to things this way and that way...
They are there to try game out, to have fun, they are likely in "yolo" mode and that's it. I don't blame them and I'm not angry at them, but in my opinion it's really not good idea to allow absolutely new players join advanced matches. It's not just about experienced players, it's also bad for them - new players, like I said before. As much as GOI community is nice in general, there are still quite a few angry captains without manners and those would probably not take lightly enginners that would repair guns instead of armor (sorry I'm saying armor, because hull doesn't make sense to me to have two different hulls, perma and the one you can't repair...). I've heard captains yelling at noobies already unfortunely, it is something no game can avoid.
The main issue here is, that a lot of vets are trying to help new players, but like I said, players that barely got in game just don't listen, they don't know better, they don't know it's important to listen and that the right loadout will help a lot. It's not a problem if they don't know how to do stuff, it's a problem because they just won't listen. I can understand they don't like being told what to do imeediately they come into game to try it out. And that's exactly one reason why i think allowing advanced matches to new players is not the best idea.
That said, you might be right that my suggestion is maybe a bit too strict, but i feel like at least something should be done. Maybe pop-up message for every time low level player tries to join advanced match? It could warn him like "Please be advised that you're attempting to enter advanced match, where you will fight experienced players. It is recommended that you join novice matches, until you reach level 4 in at least one role".
EDIT: I know people will say I'm bad captain if I can't make them to listen, but I told them simple and clear. Gunner (and his name) can you please get on right front gun? No, he prefer to stand next to me and hit me with wrench or repair already repaired armor. :D
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Your opinion is not unjustified in that respect. There are players out there that simply don't listen and can make life very difficult for captains and crewmates alike. I agree that there are bad apples out there - it's an unavoidable consequence of the game's being available to everyone who pays a few bucks - but do not despair. :P
If you have tried to reach out a player and they haven't listened, hopefully others will try to reach out and eventually they will get the message. This doesn't happen for everyone, but it's their first steps to GoIhood, and we should humour their curiosity.
You'll probably be interested to check out the new matchmaking system that Muse is working on. It will send less experienced players into brackets which are less likely to coincide with a player who is incredibly experienced. The basic details on the matchmaking system and the crux of the discussion can be found here (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3566.0.html).
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Thank you for replies, Jacob. I can't access that link you provided, but it's good to know Muse is working on better matchmaking :)
I hope no one read my post the wrong way and think I'm complaining or something. I'd just like balanced matches, because those are most enjoyable :P
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I think actually something that would really help this is a mandatory, more in depth tutorial.
I know nothing can replace experience and actually flying, but my major frustration when dealing with newbie players is having to justify everything I'm saying to them, which makes me come off as a huge jerk.
To give an example, one day I went from asking politely to basically screaming at someone to "hold fire on the mortar until you see red". Now, as a novice, how or why should they listen to me? They see a gun, they want to shoot it, and thats completely understandable. They have no concept of damage types through no fault of their own, and thus they are less inclined to understand why I am telling them to hold fire, only that I am trying to get them to play a way they don't want to play.
Another thing is rebuild vs repair. This is in numbers sure, but doesn't adequately tell a novice engineer what they should be using. How do they know rebuild is spanner and repair is mallet? When I first started out, I had no idea what the two terms meant at all. Another engineer frustration is what the hull armor does, and what do the different indicators mean.
There is also no tutorial on ammo types at all, and thus you see novices (and AI) shoot their hwacha at a 1k distance target with greased rounds or something like that.
I really think a better tutorial or handbook will make this a lot easier.
EDIT:
also on the note of ammo types, could charged rounds please have a disclaimer that says "Total clip damage increases by only a factor of ~5%" so people will learn its for burst dps and single/two shot weapons, rather than on everything forever heh. Because I know as a newbie gunner all I used was charged because zomg +damage!
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Could just give up on the Novice/Vet stuff and take it back to FFA. Then us vets can once again dine on the entrails of newbies while filling our goblets with their tears! Muahahahah!!
Or just give us an ejector seat button. Preferably linked to a gun that can fling them into our enemies when they give us any guff!
"Captain, they're firing noobs at us!"
"Very well, we'll respond in kind! Ready the noob thrower with Noobmuffins and Mr.HugNnoob!"
"Loading up! You may want to block list them now sir, their profanity arming timers are already going off!"
"Excellent, fire the noobs at will!"
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Just a quick point about the idea that friends "won't be able to play together until there is sufficient experience". What if partying up with higher level players allows entry into advanced matches? Just a thought.
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I know nothing can replace experience and actually flying, but my major frustration when dealing with newbie players is having to justify everything I'm saying to them, which makes me come off as a huge jerk.
You are being too hard on your self, it is the captain's job to be bossy and demanding. I am sure I earned a spot on a few people's blocked lists for being too bossy and coming off as a huge jerk in their eyes. I have also earned the praise "you are the best captain we have ever had," a few times too for the exact same behavior.
Blocking the new players from interacting with huge jerks like me will not help player retention. If a new player takes issue with a captain telling them what to do, they are not going to enjoy the game when they do reach higher levels where ship coordination is the norm. If a new player is the type that is happy to respond to instructions, why deny them access to Veteran players who can give good instructions?
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Once again there are no such thing as high leveled matches, sure the standard match can be seen as such however this is not what they are, they simply matches. The novice lobbies are there for convenience, giving new players the ability to test out game mechanics so on and so forth. This typically does not come to pass as they tend to jump into regular matches on a normal basis.
And while that isn't the issue, the fact that there is often a gap in skill among veteran players and the new ones, making the game difficult because the vets are trying to do something yet the new players don't exactly know what they need to do. They may have a general grasp of the game mechanics, they may know how to play the game well enough, but I personally consider vet players to be different in the way they play, while the same things still apply, knowing what to repair, when to repair it, knowing what ammo to use on what gun, knowing how to engage the enemy so things go well for you. These things aren't exactly rocket science, yet how one actually goes about them can confuse people who aren't used to tactics such as those we tend employ. while sure firing a mortar when there are red indicators is kind of obvious to us the fact that new players have yet to distinguish the difference between red and white is still there. A new player flying a heavy flak galleon may not understand how the arming time system actually works. The only way they can actually get to know these things is if someone teaches them, and if they are willing to learn, both of which are missing from time to time.
And I'm not saying that something shouldn't be done, in fact I'm in favor of a mandatory tutorial detailing these things, but until then we have to make do. Be that bossy captain who has to put down the law on your ship, it may be the only way, it may cost you the game, they may leave, but hey at least you tried right?
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I'll be hosting some novice matches when I get back to the west coast and my desktop. (On vacation on the east coast right now)
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I miss playing in novice matches, where no knowledge about strategy/mechanics, but only will to win helped to win with half-AI crews =)
Anyway, when I was showing the game to person who is very new, it was difficult to him to find novice match.
For an average player who tries to enter the game, it is much better to play with expierenced crew to pick up things quickly. Unfortunately, as a player with some expierence, I sometimes don't have mood and patience to explain people how game works. Also, a lot of new players accept help as "GTFO, I know what to do" (been there on my beginning too).
That is just a nature of public matches. We have to live with it :-*
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Given that I never had the option of novice matches when I started, I honestly don't know if they are doing anything more for people then when they weren't here. I tend to just hear of "horror stories" from the novice games, and I'm sure it's a safe bet some people have left Guns having only seen the novice games. I don't think locking matches like this will have the desired effect.
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When I first started there were no novice matches either, but there were matches without Zill in them. That was my safe space to learn and experiment. It is very hard to learn what you are doing wrong when you die 20 secconds into an encounter from a perfectly timed gat morter combo. Even if you are doing something right there is not enough time to get positive or negative feedback.
For new players I think they should crew with a veteran, observe how a ship is run then try and duplicate the vets actions as a captain in a beginner lobby. A while ago it was suggested that under level 3 pilots should be still allowed in the beginner lobbies as pilots, even if they were 3+ in other areas. It would allow for more new captain experimentation time.
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Yeah I've always heard more horror stories of novice matches than I have good stories. They are the places where dual LF Pyras are born and where everyone is a powder monkey.
Course that is how it is in MMOs. Everyone wants to be the DPS class, not the healer or tank. In GOIO you can consider the pilot to be the tank, the engineers to be the healers, and gunner as DPS. Since gunners are the bane of existence, that forces healers to the forefront. But people generally don't like supportive roles so they quit.
Observing and learning, then copying vets sounds great in theory but most of the time newbies come in and try to tell you how to run your ship. Had far too many with sub 50 matches thinking they were kings of the air vs someone who is over 3000.
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Well, talking from (Extremely foggy) memory and what I've heard, novice games ARE THE DEVIL. People do whatever the hell they like including just spamming skills for chievs. My personal experience was only slightly better because I started off as a pilot with friends and a 4-pack. (Of the 4 of us, of course, I am the sole survivor.)
I would just make sure that the novice games are mandatory and enforced by CAs more often. Then again, you can specifically offer to run sandbox drills or tutorial games for newbies and people will just not give a damn.
And in the end that's part of the playerbase retainment issue: People just don't enjoy the game for more than a few hours of "HURR DURR I AM TRIPPUL GATLEEN SKWEED, I RAM PURRAMIDIONS" because the meat of it is in pulling off stuff (Whether effective or silly) with random people over the internet. Getting your ass handed to you is not very fun. And without the proper knowledge and at least a little skill, you WILL get your ass handed to you, OFTEN.
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After a set of 12 straight wins by assorted high levels in Ressorius' 4v4 last night, I feel like some of the discouragement felt by the opposing team at 12-0 and 12-1 matches is very real. Watching the entire opposing team clear out is no fun at all, and prompted me/xemko/others to switch to the other team to try and balance things out. Again, however, it is hard to both fly on a high level and explain mechanics at the same time, when so much of the learned flying habits that I and others have are reliant on gunners and engineers being where I expect them to be.
As such, we die and I have trouble explaining to my crew precisely why. A number of them end up blaming themselves and apologizing for things they had no control over. It's a bit unfortunate, but there's a lot of depth to GoI that has to be experienced rather than shown for people to really understand. For example, captain teamwork: crazy king is almost incomprehensible to newish players, and even 2+ deathmatches will result in steamrolls due to not just refined ship composition but experience flying in formation with other allied ships.
Now, I've seen lots of new players also stick it out and do a really great job of learning and adapting, and in pretty much every lobby the advanced players will try and help new players with their loadouts, but I'd say this is more the exception than the norm. However, I don't think there's much to do about this: I don't want to tell people they're 'not good enough' to play with me, I think competitive is the only realm where that kind of exclusivity should happen. I had a lot of fun as a newbie when experienced players let me on their ship and tolerated my noobishness, and I learned quicker that way, as long as someone kept explaining to me WHY I lost/died. I hope that's the kind of supportive environment we continue to propagate so the player-base can grow.
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I haven't logged much time, but I'm starting to see a hint of the depth the guy above me talked about that's hard to explain unless you experience. I spent a great deal of time as the main Engineer on a Junker last night. After a bit of time, I found myself locked into a "cool down pattern" that I never grasped until I snapped out of my "zen state" and realized I was unconsciously doing it.... I was actually repairing and chem spraying in a certain pattern in an optimized patrol route that kept the ship repaired and running. I was hitting things in such an order that little time was wasted waiting on cooldowns.....
Those of you who have played awhile probably understand what I'm saying. But try to explain that to a new player..... they have no idea what a cooldown is half the time. They just keeping hitting things with their hammer/spanner/pipewrench. It doesn't occur to them move to something else while the cooldown is running....
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Well on the bright side with the scramble option there is a lot less QQing about stacking. Newbies would join and get 5-0'd all the time and then cry about it everywhere.
I kinda miss giving them my comfort response: "It isn't stacked if the opposing team manages 1 point!"
Course that wasn't very comforting come to think about it. But it was the truth. If they managed to score a point then it meant they actually learned something and applied it. Their side would just never hang around long enough to be able to learn more than that. Just little balls of rage unwilling to put any effort in turning that from a 5-1 to a 5-2 and eventually...they'd force the "stacked" team to start using serious builds.
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@Kaeldian
I am glad you are finding the depth to the engineering game. The time management aspect is one of my favorite aspects to GOI. Once you get really good, you can even add weapon usage to your repair routes.
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I think once you hit 15 there needs to be a "pilot berserk" option where you can kill one of your crew.
You'd have to wear the commander elite costume to do this.
Gentleman pilots will be able to choke out the offending player with their golden gauntlet and throw them off the ship.
Lady pilots will turn them into a pincushion with their rapier.
Doing this will also give your remaining crew a "cowering in fear" bonus where their movespeed is cut in half but repair and reload cooldowns are reduced by half.
You gain rage whenever you use a voice command and crew do not respond in a timely fashion. You also gain rage whenever your ship dies or whenever your crew speaks for any reason. You can execute them at max rage.
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I think once you hit 15 there needs to be a "pilot berserk" option where you can kill one of your crew.
You'd have to wear the commander elite costume to do this.
Gentleman pilots will be able to choke out the offending player with their golden gauntlet and throw them off the ship.
Lady pilots will turn them into a pincushion with their rapier.
Doing this will also give your remaining crew a "cowering in fear" bonus where their movespeed is cut in half but repair and reload cooldowns are reduced by half.
You gain rage whenever you use a voice command and crew do not respond in a timely fashion. You also gain rage whenever your ship dies or whenever your crew speaks for any reason. You can execute them at max rage.
I'm going to hope this was meant as a sarcastic jest ;)
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As a relatively new player, I've managed to get all 3 roles up to level 3. I feel perfectly comfortable playing outside of novice matches, but I still like sticking to novice matches at times because it feels less likely to throw me into the deep end against a full coordinated team.
It still happens even there, but it's less prevalent.
As for what I'd like to see, I think that players with only one role above level 4 should keep access to novice matches, BUT should be unable to select the higher-leveled role in novice matches, AND should be warned about the limitation and which role is unavailable when trying to load into a novice match. I'd also like to see players limited to ONLY playing novice matches until they have at least one role at level 3, or two roles at level 2 (basically 2 levels earned, regardless of same or different roles gives you access to non-novice gameplay). It might not be enough to get you good at the game, but by that point, you should have at least a basic grounding in the controls and functionality of the game.
As mentioned, I'm still a recent arrival. Even on my first day playing, less than 2 weeks ago, I was running into friendly faces in novice matches who were quite willing to offer helpful advice. Most of these players had only been playing a few weeks themselves, but as they had more experience than me, they had more of a feel for the game. It was pretty rare for information I heard in-game to contradict the established rules defined by regulars on the forums here - having read the forum and almost every page on the main site, I had as solid a grounding as I could without having the actual experience of playing - often things feel different from how the numbers and words line up.
If the experience I got as a new person is anything like the "average" new player experience, this game is actually one of the more welcoming online games I've played. That's not to say it's perfect (obviously), but Muse have got more right than they've done wrong, and I'm impressed by it.
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As for what I'd like to see, I think that players with only one role above level 4 should keep access to novice matches, BUT should be unable to select the higher-leveled role in novice matches, AND should be warned about the limitation and which role is unavailable when trying to load into a novice match.
Yeah, this sort of thing has been suggested before, but a level, say, 10 something but lvl 1 in everything else is still going to be doing far and away better than most of completely new players just by the virtue of knowing the game better. There has to be a cutoff somewhere, too much can be abused otherwise.
That having been said, and I say this to everyone I meet, once you get your feet under you and get the basics of the games, I highly suggest moving out of novice games asap and into some higher level matches. If you're willing to listen and learn from those and ask intelligent questions from the more veteran players in the game, like 99% of the time they're incredibly excited and eager to share their knowledge with you, and that's when you really get into the meat of the game.
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That's a good point.
Maybe your access to novice matches and to non-novice matches should be based on your total number of level-ups earned?
So when you start with only a total of level 3 (0 levels earned), you only have access to novice matches, but you unlock regular matches once you have 2 levels earned (total level = 5). As you level up, once you have 6 levels earned (total level 9 - minimum level required to guarantee at least one level 4 role), you should be locked out of novice matches. This means you could have two roles at level 3, and one at level 4, or you could have one role all the way up to level 7 and the others still at 1, or anything in between. An additional limit of being locked out of novice matches for a specific role when it reaches level 4 would be nice, imo, but possibly less necessary at that point.
Does that work better?
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Could just give up on the Novice/Vet stuff and take it back to FFA. Then us vets can once again dine on the entrails of newbies while filling our goblets with their tears! Muahahahah!!
Or just give us an ejector seat button. Preferably linked to a gun that can fling them into our enemies when they give us any guff!
"Captain, they're firing noobs at us!"
"Very well, we'll respond in kind! Ready the noob thrower with Noobmuffins and Mr.HugNnoob!"
"Loading up! You may want to block list them now sir, their profanity arming timers are already going off!"
"Excellent, fire the noobs at will!"
This is clearly the new meta.
My crew and I discuss this all the time, and I think we have found a secondary use for the harpoon gun.
Just put the noob on the pooner, and fire him off the ship! :D
(also works with trolls, singers and your friends)
For a possible, serious solution. The lobby creation menu could have an option to filter out novices.
That way if you want a novice free game, you can host it without shattering the community.
If new players want to play with experienced friends it's still possible, but then the rest of us can play in actual "advanced" matches.
An interesting thought.
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Let's look at this from a different angle.
How much time did we veterans spend in Novice matches? I'd say I maybe spent 1 or 2 matches there, max. You don't sharpen steel with steel. Novice matches can actually be a breeding ground for terrible habits. What exactly is a noob supposed to learn from a noob?
In my humble opinion, you either have the disposition for this game, or you don't. You either want to cooperate, or you don't. For every terrible non listening noob who buffs the aft gun on a pyri or refuses to "just shoot the darn enemy" or "please repair the hull" there are equal amounts of people who genuinely want to learn and be an important part of the team.
Ask yourself, "How did I learn this game?"; "What was it that really got me hooked on this game?"
I'd be willing to bet my jazz music that the answers to either of those questions is not Novice Games.
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Let's look at this from a different angle.
How much time did we veterans spend in Novice matches? I'd say I maybe spent 1 or 2 matches there, max. You don't sharpen steel with steel. Novice matches can actually be a breeding ground for terrible habits. What exactly is a noob supposed to learn from a noob?
In my humble opinion, you either have the disposition for this game, or you don't. You either want to cooperate, or you don't. For every terrible non listening noob who buffs the aft gun on a pyri or refuses to "just shoot the darn enemy" or "please repair the hull" there are equal amounts of people who genuinely want to learn and be an important part of the team.
Ask yourself, "How did I learn this game?"; "What was it that really got me hooked on this game?"
I'd be willing to bet my jazz music that the answers to either of those questions is not Novice Games.
Most of veterans are playing this game for very long time, they started when no one was really much experienced.
I guess you would be surprised how I learned the basics - from novice matches, along with a little guide reading, doing tutorial and spending a little time in sandbox. I checked tutorial in game to see what are the weapons on my preset ship doing and then I went to novice match to try them out. I didn't bother with ammo tough, because I thought it's more important in normal matches and I was right. I was better off shooting with normal ammo than using other ammo that would do more bad than good.
I wanted to learn basics first, so I did and I haven't got any problems when I tried normal matches then, because when captain gave orders and advises, I understood what he's saying, because I knew the basics. When I try to tell my lvl 1 gunners and engineers what to do now, they are confused, because they have no idea even what mallet is. That is if they even listen, mostly they don't.
I am happy to help, but if you haven't done tutorial or you haven't payed attention to it, then you'll have hard time and I'm not going to explain every single person all the basics that they should know already, if they are joining normal match. Sorry, it's just too much and too many of them. Those lvl 1 players keep leaving and new ones are coming, match after match. Sorry, I want to play, not spend 50% time in lobby, because no one wants to listen to captain and change equippment, 30% in game telling them how things works and then only 20% playing, because we'll get destroyed, because no one knows what they are doing.
Sometimes I get a newbie that actually talks or at least reads the chat and he listens! And those players, I am very happy to help them!
Unfortunately, they are rare examples.
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If you communicate. You are too good for novice matches.
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Let's look at this from a different angle.
How much time did we veterans spend in Novice matches? I'd say I maybe spent 1 or 2 matches there, max. You don't sharpen steel with steel. Novice matches can actually be a breeding ground for terrible habits. What exactly is a noob supposed to learn from a noob?
In my humble opinion, you either have the disposition for this game, or you don't. You either want to cooperate, or you don't. For every terrible non listening noob who buffs the aft gun on a pyri or refuses to "just shoot the darn enemy" or "please repair the hull" there are equal amounts of people who genuinely want to learn and be an important part of the team.
Ask yourself, "How did I learn this game?"; "What was it that really got me hooked on this game?"
I'd be willing to bet my jazz music that the answers to either of those questions is not Novice Games.
Woah. You're Jazz music? Herdcore bet.
You are absolutely right. I liked the game as a novice.
But I got hooked when I played on Zincathalon's ship and actually learned the full depth of the game.
It was like turning the corner and BOOM. Lights everywhere. Yummy happy victory lights.