Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Qwerty Kun on September 25, 2013, 01:04:30 am
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Cogs Season 3
Welcome once again, ladies and gentlemen! It is time for the Cogs Season 3 to be revealed and for you all to get keen :D
First of all, Swallow has handed off the running of the Cogs onto myself (Qwerty) and Muse. Additionally, we have heard your complaints about the current system and believe that the start of Season 3 is a great time to revamp the system and give it that fresh feel we all enjoyed in Season 1.
So how do we do that?
Well, the overhaul comes in two major parts;
● The gears rotation system
● The Cogs theme
Swallow created a great themed event, and a GoIO or steampunk feel is essential to the event. WIthout it, it’s just another event, with a funny match system. We saw the success of the Flotsam Dynasty event, which was heavily tied to the lore of Guns of Icarus and we thought, holy hell, we need that.
So here it is: Cogs season 3, in all its glory!
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Planetary Gearing:
Yes, we are going to use Wundsalz's planetary gearing system (with his input and permission, of course) which, when originally proposed by him, was met with large support from you, the community.
Why? Because it fixes the issue of the Upcomers' Cog. After Season 2, we totally understand the issue with having 3 weeks off should you lose a best of 1 match, and we have seen it cause huge concerns and lack of interest in the system.
The Planetary Gearing system allows for every team in the system to play every week. This is a lot of matches for the teams, of course. However, we believe that the dedication and tenacity shown by the competitive scene of Guns of Icarus Online (you guys!) proves that this will not be an issue, and that you will rise up and show us the very best GoIO has to offer.
Wait, planetary gearing? What’s that?
Well, let me explain it with an image:
(http://i.imgur.com/mFrPs22.png)
This is planetary gearing. How does it work? Let’s start with the basics.
● Every team fills a spot in one of the cogs
● Every week the B1 cog rotates right, the TBA gear turns right, and the A cog rotates left
● Anywhere a gear is touching is a match between the two teams occupying those spots.
○ eg. Newcomer 1/b3 is a match, so is b1/TBA1, TAB1/A2, A1/Champ
● In any week there will be 6 matches, meaning yes, every team will play.
Those are the basics, but it gets better.
● This system can be expanded, not just when we get enough for a full cog, but any time a team wants to join there is a way to add every single team to this system. In fact, the initial size and amount of cogs will be based on the signup for the event.
● There is now a points system within the Cogs as well. Ending in a each of the different Cogs will give you a different amount of points for that week. Keep reading for details on that.
● The entirety of the Cogs is now tied deeply into the lore and world of Guns of Icarus Online, as teams compete to reassemble the clocktower of Edgar Lusse (see below).
The gears this time around will be seeded by the results of the Season 2 tournament and any further signups we have, as Season 2 was seeded from Season 1.
That is Planetary Gearing and we hope you like it.
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The Clocktower of Edgar Lusse:
So the Planetary Gearing is a solid cake, but what about this lore/story stuff I keep harping on about?
Well, that my friends is the delicious icing (What? I’m hungry!).
Here's the setup.
The Clocktower of Edgar Lusse
Coveted across the burnt out world are the writings of Edgar Lusse, whose scholarship has produced more than just publications, but also devoted followers. These followers dedicated themselves to protecting his legacy, and even fewer among them to protect his fortunes. Rumors carried on the wind’s whisper that these followers hid his vast riches where none who looked could ever find it.
The only clue they left behind to identify its location is in an old clocktower, invested in and named after their champion, Lusse himself. The clocktower narrowly avoided destruction in one of Paritus’ many battles. To protect the structure’s expensive workings a scraping guild dismantled its innards, intended to reassemble it after the danger has passed. Now those mechanical parts have gone missing, and the only hope to find the lost treasure is to first find and reassemble the Cogs of the Clocktower.
No treasure will be yours without competition, of course, and there only exist so many pieces to the tower. Thus, you must fight other teams to take their Clockwork Scrap pieces.
There are 4 tiers of combat in the Cogs:
● The Dust Tier
○ The lowest tier of competition. This refers to the Newcomers vs. B3 match.
● The Tower Tier
○ The second tier of competition. This refers to the B1 vs. TBA1 and B2 vs. TBA2 match.
● The Roof Tier
○ The third tier of competition. This refers to the TAB1 vs. A2 and TAB2 vs. A3 match.
● The Sky Tier
○ The final tier of competition. This refers to the A3 vs. Champion match.
So why are these definitions needed? It's simple: the tier of competition determines how much Clockwork Scrap you win should you win your match. Try not to freak out about this, it's just a point system, so that victory can't be taken away on the very last week by some upstart team :P.
● The Dust Tier
○ Winner +1 Scrap
● The Tower Tier
○ Winner +2 Scrap
● The Roof Tier
○ Winner +3 Scrap
● The Sky Tier
○ Winner +4 Scrap
The team with the most amount of scrap at the end of the season wins!
So what about the Cogs tournament? Is that scrapped? (see what I did there?) Of course not!
If anything, the Cogs tournament is more integral to the lore of The Clocktower of Edgar Lusse and the Cogs as a whole.
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The Tournament:
Cogs has always ended with a two week tournament, and this tradition shouldn’t end. The team which ended the season with the most Clockwork Scrap has successfully rebuilt the Clocktower, and has discovered the location of the lost treasure. The other teams follow them to the treasure’s location and attempt to steal it out from under them.
Whichever team won the Weekly League names a setting. The setting represents where the treasure is hidden, and that setting is where all the games in the Tournament take place. The settings are:
In ‘The Demolished Ruins of Paritus’: Paritan Rumble and The Labyrinth
In ‘The Vast, Unchecked Wilderness’: Northern Fjords and Canyon Ambush
In ‘The Tangled Wreckage of Ruined Fleets’: Duel at Dawn and Battle on the Dunes
Each match in the tournament is randomly picked from those two maps. A bracket is made with every team involved, the winning team found the treasure, and earns an appropriate prize and title.
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Signups:
Signups this time around will be slightly different. Match details will be announced in advance like the previous Cogs systems. However, a point of contact has to be given by someone on the team, and this contact is email only.
The signup is as follows:
Team Name:
Team Colors:
Team Logo:
Contact Email: (Can be sent via PM)
That's it. That’s all we want :D Simple, isn’t it? There will be no team lists needed at all. There are of course rules for subbing but more on that in the rules section. Speaking of which.
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Rules:
Substitutes: Any team can bring a player in to substitute. However, a player can only ever appear on one team every week. You can not fly for the Rhinos in one match then the Brood in another.
Suicide: At the moment, there is no known way to suicide without awarding a kill, so there isn’t really a rule. However, know that should you kill yourself with the express purpose of breaking the game, a hard and fast rule will be decided.
No shows: Teams are given 15 minutes to assemble after the end of the preceding game (or after the scheduled start time of the Cogs). If no contact is received from any team member or reason received for the absence, then the team will automatically forfeit and will lose their scrap to the present team. In the case that neither team shows up, both lose points but hold their spots.
Exploits/glitches: Much like suicides, if a glitch or exploit is used in a match, regardless of the outcome of that game, a hard and fast rule will be decided.
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Maps:
So what maps will be in rotation this time around? Well, it will still be a 2v2 event - that is what the Cogs is. Additionally, the matches will still be a best of 1 format; there are no second attempts to get your scrap back.
Seriously though, we feel that with you all playing every week now that to pile a Bo3 or god forbid a Bo5 format on that would just be too much.
Without further ado, the maps:
Battle on the Dunes
Duel at Dawn
Paritan Rumble
Canyon Ambush
The Labyrinth
Northern Fjords
However! I we know that many teams were not happy playing on the same maps every week because of the luck of the draw, so the draw has been changed ever so slightly.
When your maps for the next week are being randomised the 2 maps that each team played on last will be removed from the pool, this will result in a smaller pool but will eliminate repeated maps and keep things fresh and interesting for you all.
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Sides/Colors:
Sides are always an issue with competitive events such as this. A bidding system was proposed and shot down like a Spire with Carronades and so a simple system has been decided on. Sides will be randomly decided on prior to the match and announced at the same time as the maps for that weeks matches. These sides will never be fixed or picked ourselves.
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Match Announcements:
Practice is integral to any team and knowing the map like the back of your hand is as important as knowing your enemies every strategy, play and build. This knowledge and practice takes time however and we want to give you more of it.
Thus each teams matches for next week will be announced on the Same day as the Cogs. They will obviously be released AFTER the Cogs (I need the results from that week) and will be done later in my (Qwerty's) day so it may be 'tommorow' for some of you (sorry if it is). This will give each of you more time to prepare for the next gruelling match.
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Seeding:
There have been many complaints about seeding. Some have said that seeding of the last tournament isn't fair and many say the same about first come first served. That and a few of the teams that were meant to be seeded have scrambled their crews and formed new teams means that the following decision has been reached.
Much like the first season of The Cogs, the starting positions for The Cogs Season 3 will be randomised. Now obviously this makes it ever so slightly unfair to the teams placed higher, thus the first week of the Cogs will have a 0 point worth for everybody.
PLEASE NOTE * This is not final, I would like some feedback quickly here, this is the fairest system I could think off without having a seeding tournament *
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Casting:
The Grand Anvalan Broadcast Association (GABA) shall as ever broadcast these events as they unfold. However, with the expected increase in events due to the fights over the Clocktower, the GABA shall be expanding their crew. Prepare for hours of entertainment as our team of talented casters bring you all the action!
Seriously though, there will now be an estimated 6 battles a week, which means it will just take too long to cast one at a time. So there will now be 2 teams casting 3 games each to provide not only speed to the battles but a choice in casters should some of you prefer some over others.
Team 1: Myself Qwerty (freaking obviously) and Swallow
Team 2: To be decided. I want to talk to PapaParadox and Brick Hardcastle. If you have other suggestions be sure to let me know.
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Staffing:
Remember when things didn’t run smoothly due to handovers in leadership and general disorganisation every week? The Cogs team remembers.
We are putting out an open call for help. We want quite a bit of staff. To set up matches while the casters are doing their work, to make sure teams are ready, to maybe make some updates to forums and to help solve rules disputes should there be any.
There have been a few offers of help. However, we could always use more as some might be unavailable.
If you feel like helping, we would love to have you. Send me a private message and we’ll fill you in on what your needed for.
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Times:
Cogs will be back at the same time and the same place: 4pm EST every Saturday.
Things are slightly different here, however.
The season for the Cogs alone will be 9 weeks long. 8 weeks of fierce, nail biting competition, and one break week in the middle for you all to cool your heels.
This break week will occur on week 5 of the Cogs, after 4 weeks of Cogs competition and with 4 weeks remaining. During this break will be a halfway cast in which no games will be played. This will be a recap of the best games, the best moments, crazy builds, amazing costumes and maybe even some commentary from prominent members of the community.
So remember people, book that time: 4pm EST on Saturdays.
What about the date?
Well.
Cogs Season 3: The Watchtower of Edgar Luse comes to you on January the 18th.
Get ready.
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Have Fun:
Seriously.
This is what it’s all about. A competitive scene is amazing, and this group we have in GoIO is an insanely great group despite our differences sometimes (it takes all sorts, after all). However, in the end everything should be put aside for fun.
Season 1 of the Cogs was release with dewy eyed pride by Swallow and I was an honored newbie caster looking for a lucky break. It had its issues but it was the first like it and despite the complaints, in the end people loved it and we left feeling great.
Season 2 was less successful. We decided to give the current system another run, see if people would still stick with it. Then I (Qwerty) got super sick and Swallow decided he wanted to step aside. Muse picked up the slack and, many thanks to them, kept it alive for me to come back and cast an amazing finals.
Season 3 will be big. Season 3 will be bold. Holy hell, I thought there wouldn’t be a Season 2 let alone a Season 3. But here we are, staring up at The Clocktower of Edgar Lusse, ready to take on every comer.
Good luck, you brave, crazy bastards!
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I'm salivating.
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I fully endorse these changes.
Season 3's going to be fun.
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Great job guys. I rly want this to start.
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I was told by Cullen that Cogs would be on a 5 week break, which is what I planned my event around.
You never cease to make my life stressful, Qwerty.
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Urz,
At the time that was the plan yes, however the plan has changed and 5 weeks is far to long. Before making this decision however I did look at the times for your event and found that the times the Cogs usually occurs is scheduled to have no matches for your event. It was not stated anywhere that you would be using this time, thus I figured it would not be an issue to start earlier.
The fact of the matter is that we are extremely excited to release this new system and feel that 5 weeks will just cause a loss of interest.
Also let it be stated that it is not my intention to make your life stressful in any way, I do not go out of my way to do so and am sorry if I have. Our events do not have time conflicts and it puzzles me as to how this stress you.
Please keep further comments to a private chat should you wish to continue this conversation, as I do not want this thread cluttered.
Cheers,
Qwerty
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● The Dust Tier
○ Winner +1 Scrap
○ Loser -1 Scrap
● The Tower Tier
○ Winner +2 Scrap
○ Loser -2 Scrap
● The Roof Tier
○ Winner +3 Scrap
○ Loser -3 Scrap
● The Sky Tier
○ Winner +4 Scrap
○ Loser -4 Scrap
I strongly oppose this point system.
I think the score should indicate the overall performance of teams during the cog season. Negative points prohibit this and roughly 2/3 of the cog will most likely accumulate negative points in the long run. If a team manages to stay in the B-League they will accumulate -3 points ( = -2 + -2 + 1)/cog turn. If they manage to stay in a transition gear they will accumulate -1 point (-3+2)/turn. Only teams who manage to stay in the A League +2 points ( = 3+3-4) and the champion gear +4 points will be able to get a positive score in the long run. The system suggest by design that any late joining rookie team performs better than 2/3 of the established cog teams.
Furthermore it renders the bidding system useless as 2/3 of the cog teams won't have any points to bid. Furthermore the system might work as a point transferal to the top leagues - Transition league teams are encouraged to invest the few points they've got for a minimal advantage as they'd loose the points anyway in case they don't win the match.
I suggest to simply cut the negative points as there really isn't any need for them in the first place - you either gain points if you win or get nothing if you loose - like in most other sport leagues. As a result we could establish a more or less representative score board indicating the overall performance of every single cog team.
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I agree.
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Hey Wundz,
Yeah as per our conversation I ran some numbers and yeah it would have a large lack of points in the system should the challengers cog be held onto for more than 1 week.
We will be removing the negative points in the system, teams will accumulate points for victories to show their skill throughout the system.
Cheers,
Qwerty
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Thank you Qwerty!
Regarding the bidding: Did you consider to introduce bidding limits (eg 3 points or value of the match)? As is the system could be abused. Especially at the End of a season its tempting to go all-in for 2 chasers who don't have a chance of winning the season with pure match-outcome points anymore.
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Would that kind of hubris leave them vulnerable if an upset happens and the over-bidding team loses?
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Wow. This sounds amazing. I'm glad the biggest tournament in the game is going plot-relevant at last.
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Team Name: Museosaurs
Team Colors: Dark Green
Team Logo:
Contact Email: (Can be sent via PM)
keyvias@musegames.com
howard@musegames.com
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It all sounds fun but god damn, every saturday for 8 weeks?
This eats up the calendar, it is a cross and plated over my calendar if me and my clan agrees to this.
We will see, it is all fun and dandy but gosh darn i spend time with friends and family those days.
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When does season 3 start? - it's stated nowhere, is it?
I personally wouldn't mind a break of 2-3 weeks.
Would that kind of hubris leave them vulnerable if an upset happens and the over-bidding team loses?
Uncapped bidding allows clans to use the system for "the winner takes it all" encounters at the end of the season. No one talks about rank 3 and 4. If 2 clans which have roughly the same amount of points at the end of the season encounter each other it's a very tempting option to bet a shit ton of points to allow the winner of the encounter to win the league. The bidding system shouldn't be usable to completely alter the outcome of the cogs. In my opinion the cog scoring should reflect the performance of the team and on that scope the bidding system is very well capable of harming the scores integrity.
While I like the idea of the bidding system in general, you have to be aware that it can very well be used for a total different purpose than deciding who plays which color - even with bidding caps. Teams could either secretly or openly agree on setting bids - for the sake of raising the match value. E.g for the B1/TBA1 engagement: B1 is a new team, underdog of the engagement and TBA1 confident to win the match. They'd like to get the 1 point B1 already earned. B1 is aware that the odds are against them but would they refuse to bid their point if TBA1 was willing to toss in 3-4 points of theirs in exchange?
I'm not saying the bidding system is a bad idea, in fact high risk-high gain engagements as the one described above are probably more thrilling for all participants. However it'll likely draw quite some focus from the teams performance to an (interesting) meta-game and I'm not sure whether that's wanted for our official league.
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Wundsalz, looks like you've brought up another good point.
Seems like there should be a cap on how many points you could bid. Perhaps it could dependent on how many points the actual match is worth that you're playing in.
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So the Planetary Gearing is a solid cake, but what about this lore/story stuff I keep harping on about?
Well, that my friends is the delicious icing (What? I’m hungry!).
I feel... The need.... To participate....
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To clarify a couple of things:
-It's starting on the 12th of October.
-It's not quite 8 straight weeks. There's a break week in the middle, as detailed in the post.
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Wundsalz, looks like you've brought up another good point.
Seems like there should be a cap on how many points you could bid. Perhaps it could dependent on how many points the actual match is worth that you're playing in.
I see 3 viable options here:
1.) introduce bidding caps (2-3 points or the match value would probably be reasonable caps).
+ This would add an interesting meta-game to the cogs described in my previous post. Clans would have to estimate their odds against their opponents and bargain deals with the enemy teams if they want to play most efficiently
- the teams scores would not work as a pure indicator for the clans performance on the battle field.
- it's likely that only a fraction of the participants will get involved into the whole bidding thingy, as bidding decisions will probably be made the the teams captains.
2.) introduce a bidding cap of 1 point. If only one team bids they match value is raised by 1 point. if both or no team bids, they play with the default match value and the sides are determined by a coin toss.
+ This would allow both teams to clearly indicate that they really want to play for a side.
o Teams can't enforce sides by spending a lot of points
o the impact on the score integrity would be minimal
- no bidding meta-game.
3) cut the bidding system. Sides will be determined by a coin toss
+ fair - no advantages can be bought
+ team scores would indicate the clans performance in the cogs
- no bidding meta-game.
As I think there is no obvious best choice, it might be a good idea to start a poll allowing all participants of the upcoming season to state which system they'd prefer.
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Honestly, the fact that people would gain an advantage from bidding for a certain color of spawns on the maps shows just how badly some maps need to be fixed.
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are you sure this is ready to launch in such short notice?
When I'm reading this there seems to be a lot of overlooked issues that needs some discussion and possibly changes.
Personally what really turns me on is that it is broadening up to a wider selection of teams.
however what turns me off is that it is every saturday. if there is a break in the middle, it will go near the christmas holidays.
I don't know about you but a lot of my university exams are based in late november and early december, so not much room on saturdays for guys like me :p (just a opinion here, I know a lot of the other dont have the same problems as me).
But if we look back on the cesports first draft, that was not ready to be launched so I'm just asking you if this is ready to launch?
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What about splitting the matches between Saturday and Sunday, or Friday and Saturday?
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Because then every team that wants to play on Saturday would be scheduled play on Friday and every team that wants to play on Friday would be scheduled play on Saturday.
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What I meant was leave time slots open if the teams agree to them.
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Hey Skrim,
Hell to the yes it's ready for release. When releasing it we realised that the areas brought up (Bidding, times, and points) would be discussed and the areas were very open to quick change. You say there is a lot of overlooked issues? I say there are only a few that are easily remedied as per the advice of the community (Which is great btw keep it coming :D).
As to times? *wishful sigh* I wish there was a time where everyone could be on doing nothing but games. Sadly that doesn't happen and it's impossible to avoid everybody's commitments. All I can recommend is train up a good sub.
Wund, your suggestions for the bidding system are good but I just want to put something out there. The primary function of the 'Scrap' (not points) is not to track a teams progress. The scrap is not just points, it is meant to be a tangible resource that the players have to collect with blood sweat and tears. It is not just a season tracking system. We will take recomendations to change the points/bidding system, however we will not remove it unless there is a HUGE outcry against it.
Cheers,
Qwerty
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Looks good so far :)... My issue with the bidding system, is that it's horribly imbalanced to the teams that have more scrap (be it that they win it, or have just been in the rotation longer)... I'm thinking this is going to be way more problematic with the newcomer matches. New comers have no scrap, so even if there was a dispute about sides, the defenders will just have to bid 1 scrap to get the side they want. with the other Tiers, it's more of a risk/reward system that could work, but with newcomers it's stupidly low-risk. Suggested fix, would be to give all teams 10 scrap from the start, that way if the defenders want the good spawns, they have to sweat a little.
(Please forgive grammar/spelling/coherency, as it is late... if you want me to explain it better, you know where to find me :)))
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That seems reasonable enough to me, everyone starts with a certain amount of scrap when they start.
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What Shin just said, I like that.
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I think we should really clarify the purpose of the bidding system here.
do we want some sort of gamble system allowing teams to raise the value of their matches to their favor or do we just want a less random solution for side-picking conflicts ?
If we want the latter we should seriously consider to search for an entirely new alternative.
Frankly I'd rather like to see the bidding system cut out entirely than to see fixes like granting teams 10 points from the start (which is more than a team staying in the Transition gear for the entire season can collect). Keep in mind that the bidding system has been introduced as a fix for a rather minor problem in the OP - a method to decide who picks which side. It has been pointed out that this system can severely influence the outcome of the entire league and it furthermore comes along with balance issues. In my opinion those drawback clearly out-weight the benefit(?) of having less random determinations for who plays which side.
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Keep in mind that the bidding system has been introduced as a fix for a rather minor problem in the OP - a method to decide who picks which side. It has been pointed out that this system can severely influence the outcome of the entire league and it furthermore comes along with balance issues. In my opinion those drawback clearly out-weight the benefit(?) of having less random determinations for who plays which side.
I agree, I don't see any real problem with a simple coin-flip. It's worked thus far and it doesn't have the problems stated previously.
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My clan is still relatively new, so I hope I'm not out of line in this though we are coming into the Cogs this season.
You could use a D&D Dice roller program to decide sides. There are several that come to mind that would solve this rather easily. One could simply roll a D20 for each side.
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So obviously the seeding's gonna be done based on season 2 results... But what determines whether Raft or Brood gets A2/A3?
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So obviously the seeding's gonna be done based on season 2 results... But what determines whether Raft or Brood gets A2/A3?
K/D ratio maybe? Or have a game before, and winner takes the better spot
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Well now that I think of it, since it's between Brood and Raft, if there are no official guidelines, we can probably come to an agreement ourselves.
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we've got the same problem for rank 5/6 as well. K-D or a matches for rank 3/5 sound reasonable to me.
How to fill the rest of the cogs? - Qualifier Tournament outcome?
What about the bidding system?
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Hey all,
Just a quick update as I'm a little busy with University ATM.
Urz has contacted me about concerns of Cogs S3 and the anvalan conflict overlapping and causing burnout. In order to not split the community or cause said burnout I'm going to push the Cogs back to after the Anvalan conflict (exact date to come).
This will also allow us to create some fun little things for S3 and adjust the rules based on the feedback from you the community.
Cheers,
Qwerty
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That sounds fair, i still need to recruit a couple of people to my clan anyway.
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You should push Cogs S3 back to coincide with the second scrimmage season round about Nov 11th, Morbie and me have cooked up some exciting revamps to the Competitive scene and it would be awesome to debut it along side S3 Cogs.
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LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!
The Anvalan conflict is over and that means the The Cogs Season 3: The Clocktower of Edgar Luse is getting ready to begin. After the high level play we saw in the Anvalan Conflict and the desperate tooth and nail in way each and every match was fought we have decided to give all you competitive teams a well deserved break.
This means that the first round of the Cogs Season 3 will take place on Saturday the 16th of November! So take your weeks break to breathe and sleep in :D
As to the previous discussion of the bidding system we have opted to remove the system. You didn't like the system and we have listened, why not keep it simple right? To replace this the sides will be randomly decided prior to the matches and will be announced with the map announcements each weak.
A singup thread will be thrown up shortly, please make your way there and sign up your teams and get ready to claim Edgar Luses Clocktower!
Cheers,
Qwerty
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Two remarks:
- Having two entirely uncorrelated systems (the scrap system and the tournament at the end) is quite of confusing, imo.
- Can someone please take some time to create an eye candy replacement for my crappy google paint sketch in the op?
the first round of the Cogs Season 3 will take place on Saturday the 16th of November!
you might want to include this information in the OP
other information that's missing there:
- where to signup? (you gave us a form but no information where to post it)
- where and how will the scrap points be presented?
- is there anything to win by gaining the most scrap points or can I just skip to the league and hop in for the tournament at the end of the league?
- how will the cogs be filled initially?
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Did someone ask for eye candy?
(http://i.imgur.com/ts9kfUJ.png)
Also I am fairly sure when qwerty was asying he was getting rid of the bidding, he emant the whole scrap thing
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Your paint skill clearly surpass mine - lets implement yours (after removing that irritating, ugly cogling in the corner).
what what?
Also I am fairly sure when qwerty was asying he was getting rid of the bidding, he emant the whole scrap thing
Wait what? So we'll fight over nothing for 8 weeks and then we'll have a completely uncorrelated tournament to determine the winner? That doesn't make sense.
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You know what, I'll just shut up cause I know not of what I speak.
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NANI SORE?!!!
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Come to think of it, that picture does look like a sore on somebody's... nevermind.
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A singup thread will be thrown up shortly
So, when?
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Qwerty, being the busy chap that he is, wanted me to post in here as well on his behalf, to let you fine people all know that with the Aeronautical Arena happening on the 16th, and then the season 1 tournament the weekend after, that Cogs S3 is being pushed back to the 7th of December, and will be linking directly with Season 2 Competitive.
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Knowing that, the Gents will be cautiously signing up for COGs. However, in whatever way you intertwine season 2, we will not be involved with that.
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Hey everyone,
Listen, I am really sorry about this, I know this has been shamelessly delayed over and over again now but things are just happening from the Anvalan to the Muse system and my own computer issues so this season of Cogs has to be delayed again.
I will not have access to a good computer/internet connection for pretty much all of December and thus will not be able to organise and run the Cogs season 3. This has changed from what I previously thought would happen. So sadly this season of the Cogs will be delayed until next year some time.
Please send me all your hate mail, I deserve it.
Cheers,
Qwerty
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A damn shame to hear Qwerty, I hope you get things sorted out and enjoy the holidays!
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Well...nuts. Hmmm, Aerodrome could potentially fill in for Dec but we're still in planning stages. Didn't really think about a quick roll out of it. I'll have a sit down with the gang and see how they feel.
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I blame Shink.
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I'd suggest not trying to roll out the Aerodome quickly since I would imagine attendance could be spotty as we get closer to the holidays at the end of the month.
I had been thinking about throwing something similar to what Keyvias had suggested a bit back. Basically on Saturday have 6 or 8 teams paired up, playing BO3 matches, no time limit but the next match starting either an hour or 45 minutes after the last (depending whether it is 6 or 8 teams). No tournament/greater win or loss so less pressure to have to win which would be better with spotty attendance and this could easily tie into the competitive scrim system, and while it could last a long while, no team is overly delayed and will know exactly when they will fly.
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This is kind of hurting the competitive scene by having constant delays. I understand the circumstance in this case but I think if this event had started earlier it wouldn't been an issue. Need to keep the events consistent and regular or the teams will get angsty.
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EVERYBODY!
It is time to finally make the Cogs Season 3 start date announcement. Again I apologise for the constant delays but they were unavoidable. Now without further ado;
The Cogs Season 3: The Clocktower of Edgar Luse begins on January, Saturday the 18th.
Get your teams together and sign them up.
There will be some rule changes and clarifications coming in the next few days, based on the communities feedback.
Regards,
Qwerty
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WOOHOO! Finally!
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seems interesting maybe the dutchmen will join too.
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Ducks will of course be there. The teams however will be very different.
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Ducks will of course be there. The teams however will be very different.
I hear a flotsam challenge coming soon
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There will be some rule changes and clarifications coming in the next few days, based on the communities feedback.
Still waiting.
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Okay everybody some of the rules and the date on the first post have been changed.
There have been changes to the following;
Match announcement time
Map sides
Map selection/randomisation
Seeding for season 3
Go check them out, recommend any changes you can think of, then sign your teams up.
Cheers,
Qwerty
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We could all start from the lowest possible tier and advance through the first weeks up higher.
Its maybe a bid harder to get to work in the first weeks but the reason for the tiers was to make it interesting due to the fact that tier was sth like skill lvl.
But with a random seed this wouldnt be that way for the first few weeks.
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I like it! And I can understand the seeding process, it's at least decently fair ^^
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Ducks are perfectly fine with not using the seeding from last tournament especially since the Paddling and the Raft no longer really exist and the Brood is quite different. Clean slate!
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Just to make clear. Im fine with not using the old seeding but i kinda dislike the random seed.
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Just to make clear. Im fine with not using the old seeding but i kinda dislike the random seed.
While I share your "meh" feeling about it, I can't think of a better way to do it. So unless that happens, it's about as good as it can be.
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I don't know how we would use the old seeding. The Paddling, the seed 1 team no longer exists, the Raft (either seed 3 or 4) no longer exists, and the Brood (either seed 3 or 4) is only half of what it was through Cogs season 2. I would imagine the Gentleman team is a bit different with their new Mad Hatters and Gents team system. Random seeding effects the Ducks far more than the rest of y'all and we're completely fine with it as it is the only real way to move forward.
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Im not concerned about the ducks place in it. For me its just not a fair method to seed ppl for the start of the season.
Thats why i made a other suggestion.
Let everyone start in the lowest tier and make random matches. That way we get a actual seeding after 1-2 weeks.
Yes a lucky seed for a lower tier competitor would still let him be kicked to the lower tier but when 2 teams are on nearly the same lvl a lucky seed can make the difference.
At least in my opinion.
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How would that work with the new planetary system?Basically you are always fighting someone in the higher tier. Newcomer gear challenge the outer ring, outer ring challenges middle gears, middle gears challenge inner ring, and inner ring challenges champion.
This system kind of requires every slot filled as best as I can tell.
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True but why not just make everyone lowest tier for first week.
Than they face of in random matches. Winner advances. Second week the same. Lowest tier fights itself and advances. Second lowest fights itself and advances.
And that way you can fill every tier week after week.
Or only the winners advance and the tiers fill slower.
So first week: same
second week: lowest tier fights higher tier, winner advances to the higher tier from their place. etc ...
Not sure if it works but i kinda feel thats better than those totally random seeds.
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If you can't have everyone starting at once due to time and number of matches then just don't run all the teams at the start.
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Since there is an overall point system to determine the winner that could cause some issues as there would be a lot of cogs before you could really count points fairly. Here is something I thought of that could make it a fairly good seed without taking a lot of time; instead only two weeks of no points.
We need to fill 12 spots with 12 teams as there will be a weekly minimum of this amount which should translate to six matches.
Week 1, 12 teams paired randomly and fight. So we have 6 winners and 6 losers. The six winners are placed randomly into the top 6 positions (Champ 1, inner circle 3, upper middle gears 2) and the six losers are placed randomly into the bottom 6 positions (lower middle gears 2, outer ring 3, and new comer slot 1)
Week 2, We give one crank of the cogs without points being awarded.
What this gives us
- Fair seeding
- Need to win at least twice to start the scoring in the top spot
- 6 matches every week
- Only two weeks of no points.
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^^ Seconded.
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The fairest and most obvious solution would be to hold a small bracket tournament for seeding. Even in Sammy BT's suggestion (which would be an improvement over full random seeding), being put into the champion slot or the third tier based on a coin flip seems contrary to the spirit of a competitive event.
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I am unsure how well a bracked tounrney would work as one would need so many run offs as there are so many tiers the planetary system is based more on around threes than twos. We need one first place, three second places, two fourth places, two fifth places, three sixth places, and one seventh place. Seeding all 12 minimum teams into these positions on the cogs would take dozens of matches or implementing some sort of scoring based on kills instead of wins.
In my suggestion it is not until the third week that points are given out and if you won all three matches I am fairly sure you are either the champion (5/6 chance) or the challenger to the champion (1/6 chance) Thats not horrible and it allows for the cog wheel to get spinning quickly.
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I'll flesh this idea a bit since you asked.
As a hierarchical structure, Cogs has five tiers:
Tier 1 (1 team)
Tier 2 (3)
Tier 3 (4)
Tier 4 (3)
Tier 5 (1)
A 12 team single elimination tournament would be four rounds. Four teams would be seeded into the quarterfinals (either based on last season's results or randomly). The non-seeded eight teams would play a round for the remaining four quarterfinals spots. The teams who get knocked out in that round would be placed into tiers 4 and 5.
The eight teams in the quarterfinals play, four move on to the semifinals and the four who lose get seeded into tier 3.
The four teams in the semifinals play, two move on the finals and the two who lose get seeded into tier 2.
The two remaining teams play in the finals, the winner gets tier 1, second place gets the A1 spot in tier 2, getting the first chance to fight for tier 1 again.
So while seeding into S3 this way may not be completely non-random, it would reduce the random variance significantly. Initial bracket seeds being based on last season would give the previous top finishers at least a tier 3 seed, but still require them to fight for a better one. One team in the bottom four would get the short end of the stick, but other than that the seeding would be entirely results-based.
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Or we could just say...dibs on champion! :D
Ha, beat you all! :P
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To Urz
Going to go ahead and repost the image.
(http://i.imgur.com/mFrPs22.png)
I must admit, at a glance that does seem a lot more workable than I initially thought, however an issue arises from the fact that the tiers in cogs aren't as simple as they may appear.
As we were saying seeding from the last season isn't overly feasible due to the fact that the competitive scene is so different. So the 4 randoms that get seeded beyond the outer ring do get quite a leg up. The tier three group you set up is really more accurately seen as two tiers. TAB 1 is two consecutive wins away from being the champ where TBA 2 is four consecutive wins away from the champ. In fact TAB is basically better than A3 and just as good as A2.
With Cogs, different spots in the tiers are still noticeably better or worse which is the idea. A single bracket tourney, while awesome, would require exhaustive matches to fairly determine the placement in the tiers as you would need so many secondary brackets for each area. Even using the simple one you proposed we still got 11 matches, meaning this would probably need to be a two day affair that still has a lot of luck in the seeding.
To Gilder,
If anything, the Ducks would get to call dibs!
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Pfft, you guys were busy quacking about seeds and other stuff. Lost your chance to call dibs! :P
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With Cogs, different spots in the tiers are still noticeably better or worse which is the idea. A single bracket tourney, while awesome, would require exhaustive matches to fairly determine the placement in the tiers as you would need so many secondary brackets for each area. Even using the simple one you proposed we still got 11 matches, meaning this would probably need to be a two day affair that still has a lot of luck in the seeding.
As I said, it wouldn't be a perfect solution and not completely non-random, but it still allows for a lot less variance than say, splitting the entrants into two groups and randomly seeding from there. The tournament matches wouldn't need to be run consecutively (that would be silly), and with four referees could be run in four rounds. That's one "match" longer than a normal Cogs day.
While the TAB placements would allow for a potentially quicker ascension given a win-streak, that discounts the tiers being seeded based on results. If you're in A3 playing playing the team in TAB2, you would be playing against an opponent who did worse in the tournament, which gives odds at you being the stronger of the two. You're "playing down".
With less than two weeks until Cogs it's probably too late to add something like this anyways. More a thought exercise in trying to work the insanity of the Cogs S3 system.
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Ah yes, since the cogs format doesn't fit into a simple single elimination bracket it must be insanity. While obviously 11 matches wouldn't have to be done at the same time, you still run into a major issue of teams having to wait a long time for their next match. Teams take Cogs matches quite seriously and thus they often last longer than your average competitive scrim.
At the end of the day, this is a very minor thing. Cogs is an 8 week event and things will change throughout the course of it.
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My opinions on the Cogs system were not a result of this thought exercise nor it not being a bracket style tournament.
I'm also not sure how you can criticize my idea for requiring 11 matches, when yours requires 12. It could easily be split across two Saturdays the same way.
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Cause you then get a lot of people who don't get to do anything if split over a few weeks. My plan has every team get to play every week and it gets a cog spin by the second week and quite fair points when it begins on the third.
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Has anyone seen qwerty lately?
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Awww..
He didn't get cold feet before the big day, did he?
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Check the forums for Letonator's post. He's taken stewardship of the Cogs.
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Check the forums for Letonator's post. He's taken stewardship of the Cogs.
what the hell is going on now?
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Check the forums for Letonator's post. He's taken stewardship of the Cogs.
what the hell is going on now?
I don't know
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Check the forums for Letonator's post. He's taken stewardship of the Cogs.
what the hell is going on now?
I don't know
Essentially it was decided that Leto was to take over the Cogs due to Qwerty's disappearance, however Leto felt he is unable to fulfill that role as he isn't well known enough in the community, as well as the amount of confusion, baggage, etc. currently associated with S3 of The Cogs, so as it stands there will not be a third season, Urz is currently going to begin The Saturday Box Social which will be running Saturdays 4pm est as a straight bracket while he and Leto work on a proposal for a community league.
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yep.