Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Garou on September 09, 2013, 05:21:36 am
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Hello everyone. I'd like to start by thanking everyone involved for taking the time out to schedule, run, and cast TSR every week. It's an awesome experience and I know for us in Wolfpack, it's become something we look forward to each week. Urz, Papa, Brick, Imagine, you guys are awesome.
That said, I wanted to post a thought I had regarding tourney length. This week we saw a great turnout for the tourney, with 7 clans vying for the win. It's great to see, but at the same time I saw a number of comments regarding how long the tourney ran.
I was thinking that instead of streaming every match, perhaps matches could be run simultaneously. In the case of two matches running at the same time, one could be live streamed while the other could have a referee watching the action and breaking into the live broadcast with score reports, when a team wins a match or series. This referee could perhaps also be recording the match, and afterward a highlight reel or the match in full could be posted on the twitch site.
This would allow everyone to view their performances while also having less wait time, without having to change the format to a "one-and-done" like the COGs etc. I personally feel the "best of 3" approach is a great one, especially for clans new to competitive play, as it gives them an opportunity for a comeback. I also feel the victories are more decisive with a "best of 3" format.
Anyhow, just a thought, and thanks again for all the work you guys put in. Can't wait for next week!
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I agree with all of this whole heartily
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I think we, corvus, waited 1.5 hours to play yesterday, and rhinos waited longer.
I know it's fun to watch the streams but an event that takes up to 3-4 hours every week is hard on you especially when it could potentially end at 2am CET. People have school and work etc.
so yea agreed on either a best of 1 way or run several games at the same time.
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I strongly support the idea of parallel matches - even if that implies some of them don't get streamed. Waiting for two hours before the action starts sucks - especially if you don't know that you've to wait that long prior to the event. Also the event lasted way too long for Eu-centered clans like ours. Two of our members actually had to leave us before our first match started, because they had to get to work early. If you need to get up at 5-7am on Monday you simply can't play beyond midnight on Sunday.
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Overwatch would have no problem participating in dark matches for the sake of streamlining the tournament. We too enjoy the best of 3 format of the Sunday Rumble and feel that once you get 5 or more teams a week, this might be the best way to approach things. :)
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There's no need to not stream certain matches. All you need to do is have multiple streams covering games simultaneously. They did it on the last day of Flotsam and it worked fine.
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There's no need to not stream certain matches. All you need to do is have multiple streams covering games simultaneously. They did it on the last day of Flotsam and it worked fine.
If we've got the manpower to stream simultaneously this would certainly be the best solution.
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Thing is, at the moment I think we are using Urz stream (CESports) with just Brick and Papa commentating (<3 you guys)
I think it's up to them if they want to expand their team or run with the dark match option also on the table.
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Thing is, at the moment I think we are using Urz stream (CESports) with just Brick and Papa commentating (<3 you guys)
I think it's up to them if they want to expand their team or run with the dark match option also on the table.
I'm casting it too (sometimes)!
Anyways, I can't/don't want to speak for TSR too much as it is Urz's thing, but generally having multiple streams running at once is not ideal as splitting audience is generally bad. That having been said, I do agree that there was too much wait time for those participating, but it's not as simple as just let's get all the games going at once in this case. The amount of teams for this last TSR came as kindof a surprise, frankly, as so far there have really been only 3-4 teams wanting in, so to suddenly jump to 7 made it a lot more difficult time wise. But I'll leave it to Urz of how he'll want to deal with something like it for upcoming tournaments since, as I said, this is his thing.
Oh, also, as a quick note, the time it takes to cast these games also depends on you, the participants, specifically the time it takes you guys to get games going. I know you want to discuss strategy and loadouts between matches, but there were several times yesterday when the lobby was full for a good 10 minutes before any ready was thrown up, on top of which there was one specific instance in which one team would unready as the start timer was about to wind down and then ready back up again to reset the counter. Personally I'd impose a time limit between games for teams to figure out what they want to do, but for now, you guys have really gotta stop taking these extended breaks if you want the matches to progress faster.
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when it comes down to waiting 1.5 hours and getting your game streamed. vs not getting streamed and getting to play imidiately. I think you'd find most backup for the latter.
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Agreed Skrim.
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when it comes down to waiting 1.5 hours and getting your game streamed. vs not getting streamed and getting to play imidiately. I think you'd find most backup for the latter.
Which I completely understand from a player perspective (because, hell, I've experienced it myself), but that differs from a production/tournament organizing perspective.
As I said, the large amount of team increase (I mean, it was basically double for this last rumble than it has been previously) led to most of these problems, we'll see if it's something that will come up next weekend as well.
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i understand you guys wanting to keep the production level where you want it, but the reality is if you actually want the rumble to grow you need to get more creative. i assume your first thought is to make the matches best of one instead of three(brinck mentioned this in the stream) which isnt a bad idea for 7-10 teams but what if you actually get 15 teams that sign up one day? Be a forward thinking person instead of reactionary. By simply having some matches played without stream and have the results reported via scoreboard a la EVERY OTHER SPORTS CAST ON THE PLANET, you would be able to host an infinitely large tourney and lose nothing production wise. In fact I would argue that by having a scoreboard-ticker-like-thing at the bottom of the screen would actually add to the feeling of grand-scale and importance of the rumble and ADD to what you guys are doing each week.
Not to mention your production level on the tourney will inevitably falter when less and less teams sign up for it because they dont have 4 hours to give every week.
Do what you do I just want to see the rumble continue to grow.
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I agree with Maverick. Not all the matches have to be streamed. And I really like the idea of a scoreboard that could be updated and maybe overlayed on the live stream.
It would be great if they could all be recorded though.
I think the best way to decide which ones to stream, is to have signups end at 300/330 and then put all the matches to a vote with the most popular match(s) getting streamed.
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i understand you guys wanting to keep the production level where you want it, but the reality is if you actually want the rumble to grow you need to get more creative. i assume your first thought is to make the matches best of one instead of three(brinck mentioned this in the stream) which isnt a bad idea for 7-10 teams but what if you actually get 15 teams that sign up one day? Be a forward thinking person instead of reactionary. By simply having some matches played without stream and have the results reported via scoreboard a la EVERY OTHER SPORTS CAST ON THE PLANET, you would be able to host an infinitely large tourney and lose nothing production wise. In fact I would argue that by having a scoreboard-ticker-like-thing at the bottom of the screen would actually add to the feeling of grand-scale and importance of the rumble and ADD to what you guys are doing each week.
Not to mention your production level on the tourney will inevitably falter when less and less teams sign up for it because they dont have 4 hours to give every week.
Do what you do I just want to see the rumble continue to grow.
Ok so, first of all, what I'm saying is more in generics because once again, I'm not running TSR, or really any other tournament, so I'm just speaking about what I know about general production standards.
Secondly, c'mon now, you know well that there won't be 15 teams signing up, don't be purposefully obtuse. (btw, if that ever happens, I'd never be happier to be proven wrong because it would mean the game is going in all sorts of right directions)
Thirdly, a scoreboard ticker thing is a hellof a lot harder to pull of than waving your hand and saying make it so. While there can be someone watching another game and passing casters info to put out during in game downtimes, an actual scoreboard ticker is bloody friggin hard to pull off.
Anyways, my point is people assume all sorts of things about streaming and casting by saying just do this or that without actually knowing what kind of stuff happens behind the scenes, and I'm letting you know right now, adding things usually ends up being significantly harder or just not worth the time, because, unlike EVERY OTHER SPORTS CAST ON THE PLANET the budget for something like this is, oh, somewhere along the lines of absolutely zero money.
So once again, I personally understand the frustration with some of this, but I actually have nothing to do with the organization of the tournament. Just wanted to put in a word from a production perspective so that maybe the bashing jerkfest that goes on about casters wouldn't get out of hand.
On a side note, I do like how my point about players taking 15 or so minutes to get games started hasn't been addressed like, at all. G'job, selective posters.
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Alright, here's what I think sums up the general view on tournaments and some ideas that could be implemented without too much hassle.
The Sunday Rumble takes way too long. This may be because of players and/or casters but it's a problem.
Ideas-
1. Matches must start by a certain time. Or once the lobby is created, have say, five minutes until the match starts.
2. If there are too many matches to stream, put it to a vote with a time limit on the voting. If there's a tie, flip a coin.
As for reporting on the other matches, it seems that even though it'd be awesome to have a scoreboard, it's a little easier said than done. (I don't have any experience casting, this is based on Imagine's post.)
A solution that might work is to have whoever is refereeing the other matches report to the casters and have them tell it on the stream during lulls through good ol' fashioned talking. Kinda like they do on the radio.
Anyway this is just my general opinion on this topic.
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On a side note, I do like how my point about players taking 15 or so minutes to get games started hasn't been addressed like, at all. G'job, selective posters.
It is a valid point. I believe for us in Wolfpack, we were guilty of one of those delays because a couple of our members had to suddenly AFK. We can certainly do our due diligence in making sure we're prepared when the matches are ongoing.
That said, I just wanted to speak up a bit in defense of the "best of 3" format the TSR currently has. I already mentioned my basic feelings on that vs a "one-and-done" in my original post, however there was one point I didn't make.
This week, we saw some creative builds and strategies. Overwatch and Corvus Marauders come to mind, with Overwatch employing some unconventional builds and Corvus taking a gamble on a dual-spire setup. I feel if the tourney was a "one-and-done" format, we would see less of this sort of experimentation if teams only had one chance. I feel like the Rumble is a great proving ground for teams who want to try new builds and strategies in a competitive atmosphere, and I would hate for that to be lost to time-crunching.
I also feel the "one-and-done" format might make TSR feel less "fun" and more intimidating to new clans or clans who are just getting their feet wet in competitive play. Best of 3 means that you can shake off those 'first match jitters' and really give your best efforts. A "one-and-done" format just doesn't facilitate that.
Granted, we still have to wait and see if the interest level for TSR stays as high as it was this week, but frankly I don't see it lessening too greatly. There are new clans popping up every day and they all want a chance to compete. I don't think it's so unheard of that 5, 6, 7, or more clans each week may become the norm, especially as more people become aware of TSR, and even if it doesn't these contingencies are worth exploring in a constructive discussion.
And again, thank you to everyone who takes the time and effort to make TSR possible. I think, though our opinions on this matter may differ, that everyone is grateful for being given a stage to compete in a fun, relaxed atmosphere. At the risk of repeating myself, you guys are awesome.
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A solution that might work is to have whoever is refereeing the other matches report to the casters and have them tell it on the stream during lulls through good ol' fashioned talking. Kinda like they do on the radio.
That was actually kinda what I was thinking. They could have the referee in the non-streamed match on the Skype call with a muted mic, and he could just chime in when there's a match or series won so we can keep up on the action.
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i'm going to say what I told bubbles today.
I don't care what the casters want, I care about what the teams want.
waiting 1.5 hours to lose was possibly one of the worst thing we have engaged as corvus
I spoke to urz some time ago and asked how long these events would take, and he said 2 hours.
Alright we can do 2 hours in corvus, then its midnight In our timezone, even 2-3am for our russian.
we showed up, ok we got game 3. and had to wait for a long time, rhinos even longer.
luckily rhinos were willing to scrimmage us for an hours time or so in the meantime.
then its suddenly 11.30pm CET and we play, at 12pm we are done. If we had won we would have had to wait further and possibly if we went to the finals we would have to stay awake for the good 3.5 - 4 hours that it took, this we don't really have time for since members of corvus have jobs, school etc. that happens early monday morning.
So don't give me that reasoning where you put casters over the teams participating, because thats stupid. As a caster you should feel privileged that you are granted the rights, like we feel privileged that we get to play, but trying to argue that casting is more important than what the teams feel is not.
In the end its up to Urz if changes will happen, and I'm sure he's keeping an eye on this discussion waiting for it to have some good cons and pros. And when he decide whats going to happen, it will for atleast for some clans wether they are happy witht he results or not.
I just had the feeling that this was meant as an alternative for all the teams that could not get into cogs or did not want to participate. And I also think it was meant as a casual experience for teams, meaning that they themselves decide wether to experiment or to tryhard to see what they are capable off. In any case there is no treasure at the end of the road, no reward for winning, so in the end its just for fun.
Urz have put a ton of time into getting the stream up, I respect that a lot, but as a clan 1.5 - 2 hours is way too long to way if there is no rewards. Then we could just in theory schedule our own scirmmages. Urz is giving us a quick way to get some scrimmages even competitively if you want that, and thats great but I'm personally not waiting that long again, then I'll go to bed instead so I don't ruin my monday morning.
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I don't care what the casters want, I care about what the teams want.
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. While you make some valid points, I frankly don't agree with your mindset. The casters aren't doing this out of any obligation, nor are they receiving any form of backing from anyone. They are doing this on their own and are basically "gifting" us with the opportunity to play in a competition each week. They aren't required to do that, and given the sort of guerrilla-style they employ, it's not going to be perfect.
It's also worth noting that the casters have to make the same time investment we do, if not more. Brick was saying at one point in the stream that he was starving, and bear in mind it's already pretty late for him by the time we get started, but he's willing to soldier on. Again, these aren't paid professionals where these sorts of situations are expected. These are a few guys putting together a tourney for our benefit. I think it's fair to say that they should be taken into consideration as well.
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I don't care what the casters want, I care about what the teams want.
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. While you make some valid points, I frankly don't agree with your mindset. The casters aren't doing this out of any obligation, nor are they receiving any form of backing from anyone. They are doing this on their own and are basically "gifting" us with the opportunity to play in a competition each week. They aren't required to do that, and given the sort of guerrilla-style they employ, it's not going to be perfect.
It's also worth noting that the casters have to make the same time investment we do, if not more. Brick was saying at one point in the stream that he was starving, and bear in mind it's already pretty late for him by the time we get started, but he's willing to soldier on. Again, these aren't paid professionals where these sorts of situations are expected. These are a few guys putting together a tourney for our benefit. I think it's fair to say that they should be taken into consideration as well.
I know that they are, and thanks to those who are willing. But my point is that it isnt a valid reason not to let games run without streaming.
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So don't give me that reasoning where you put casters over the teams participating, because thats stupid. As a caster you should feel privileged that you are granted the rights, like we feel privileged that we get to play, but trying to argue that casting is more important than what the teams feel is not.
I'm sorry, what?
Don't try to feed me that bullshit, Skrim. In fact, it should be you, as a team, that should be happy that there are organized events like this to participate in. This is a two-way street buddy, you should feel privileged that you're allowed the rights to participate in events that are promoted, organized, reffed, casted, and then edited by people who are not you. Pissed off at the time it starts or the amount of time it takes to play out? Fine, give some productive feedback or suggestions, but if all you're going to do is spew this dumb vitriol, go make your own event. Frankly I'm shocked at how much sudden hate you have for something that you decided to participate in once. I'm also pretty sure this wasn't meant as an alternative to cogs and was just something tossed out saying as hey, this should be fun, sign on up (but hey, once again, I'm not Urz so that's pure speculation on my part).
Through all my posts I've consistently said that I understand why teams were unhappy with waiting for their games to begin, and we've had some good thoughts about how to make it better. If all you're going to do is come in here and try to act all superior though, please stop.
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There's an easy solution to teams taking forever in the lobbies. In the Flotsam, we'd have Duck Buddies (in any other tournament it'd be a ref) create lobbies the moment the preceding matches started. That way everybody would fill in while another match was underway, and any coin tosses etc. would be handled. The transitions between matches were way smoother that way.
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in some cases Sunderland's idea would work, but the problem when applied to TSR is that some matches(towards the end) there are at least one team still in a match.
but earlier it could work, I always felt like it was kind of silly to wait in crew formation when I could be in a lobby.
As for the tournament so far... show me one standard tournament that doesn't have its kinks? as far as I can tell, TSR has come a LONG way in 5 weeks. I agree we should time lobbies. I mean teams need time to adjust, and crew need a short break to take care of things, but the lobby shouldn't be open for 15 minutes.
and remember TSR is a weekly "have fun and experiment new load outs/crews/ect or just to get into the competitive scene (because CoG's can be a little limited)"
if this sunday's tournament is even bigger, it maybe prudent to start either a new channel to stream, or as garou stated, a group that records it. heck TSR could also be a place for people to try their hand at casting/streaming/editing.
I feel people should relax a little and understand that the competitive scene on Guns is not LoL or SC quality...yet... and remember that the people DOING the streams are normal people who work or go to school. So it is us, the players, that should feel privileged that they take the time to set these things up for us.
so please lets try to work the kinks out and continue to have fun. after all...it's still a game.
Rutger Shaw of the Wolfpack
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I haven't watched much of the Sunday Rumble but my understanding is that massive chunks of time are lost in late starts and slow transitions between matches, is that accurate?
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I haven't watched much of the Sunday Rumble but my understanding is that massive chunks of time are lost in late starts and slow transitions between matches, is that accurate?
The late starts aren't common. As I recall, we really only had one rumble start that was significantly delayed (I've participated in all five rumbles). As for match transitions, those are getting faster by the week, and generally only occur when two new teams are joining lobbies. This week we had a couple delays, but generally they only take around 5 minutes tops.
The main time sink is the matches themselves. Because you have teams playing up to 3 matches at each tier, and variety in tactics, sometimes matches can take a while.
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There's an easy solution to teams taking forever in the lobbies. In the Flotsam, we'd have Duck Buddies (in any other tournament it'd be a ref) create lobbies the moment the preceding matches started. That way everybody would fill in while another match was underway, and any coin tosses etc. would be handled. The transitions between matches were way smoother that way.
While I think this would be a significant step into the right direction and should definetly be done in future tournaments, I doubt it'd reduce the needed time for the tournament sufficiently to keep Eu-centered clans interested in the sunday rumble. If you want Eu-Clans to participate at the tournament without forfeits in (semi-)finals, it should end at roughly 6pm EST.
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I haven't watched much of the Sunday Rumble but my understanding is that massive chunks of time are lost in late starts and slow transitions between matches, is that accurate?
I would say massive, but enough to be noticeable.
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I apologize to those who had to sit and wait two hours for their match to start. We had twice as many matches this week as last, and when I hit the sack Sunday morning, only four teams had publicly RSVPed. I had not planned for a sudden spike in signups; I did not have a contingency in place. That was my failing which I will remedy now.
Going forward we will broadcast a maximum of four matches during a Rumble. The plan will be to run the earlier matches simultaneously, as to get everyone their first match as expediently as possible. To use yesterday's bracket (http://cesports.challonge.com/TSR5) as an example, we would run matches A & B simultaneously, then matches C & D next. On stream we would have run A, D, E, F. If we can get someone to record the off-stream matches, they will be recorded. If we get get someone to broadcast them, they will be broadcast.
The best of three format will not be changed. With a best of one you lose the back and forth, the aspect of teams feeling out their opponents and adjusting their tactics. It is an integral part of competitive play which I will not compromise. You also don't need to worry about gathering your crews and being eliminated 5 minutes later. As a spectator, you get to see more of the teams you came to watch.
If time continues to be an issue, I will consider moving the start earlier by one or two hours.
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Seems reasonable to me. Perhaps a deadline for applications of noon your time on the Saturday before.
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waiting 1.5 hours to lose was possibly one of the worst thing we have engaged as corvus
you know what would help? winning...
in all seriousness i love where your head is at URZ! thanks for all your work!
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waiting 1.5 hours to lose was possibly one of the worst thing we have engaged as corvus
also skrim i was thinking about your second game against us...
http://cdn.meme.li/i/ojuy8.jpg
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waiting 1.5 hours to lose was possibly one of the worst thing we have engaged as corvus
also skrim i was thinking about your second game against us...
http://cdn.meme.li/i/ojuy8.jpg
hehe I promise you if we hit northern fjords again, we'll bring double spire, we'll show you that it works.
We just need to get our shiz together again and get synched after this vacation :p
I'm also thinking of switching out for squid if the pyra gets hit by the 100 health nerf :p
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waiting 1.5 hours to lose was possibly one of the worst thing we have engaged as corvus
also skrim i was thinking about your second game against us...
http://cdn.meme.li/i/ojuy8.jpg
hehe I promise you if we hit northern fjords again, we'll bring double spire, we'll show you that it works.
We just need to get our shiz together again and get synched after this vacation :p
I'm also thinking of switching out for squid if the pyra gets hit by the 100 health nerf :p
please use double spires anytime you want, i love getting kills without using my guns it makes me feel more awesome than i already feel, which is difficult because i feel pretty fucking awesome
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Thank you Urz! I really like your plans.
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waiting 1.5 hours to lose was possibly one of the worst thing we have engaged as corvus
also skrim i was thinking about your second game against us...
http://cdn.meme.li/i/ojuy8.jpg
hehe I promise you if we hit northern fjords again, we'll bring double spire, we'll show you that it works.
We just need to get our shiz together again and get synched after this vacation :p
I'm also thinking of switching out for squid if the pyra gets hit by the 100 health nerf :p
please use double spires anytime you want, i love getting kills without using my guns it makes me feel more awesome than i already feel, which is difficult because i feel pretty fucking awesome
Oh madd.... so young :P.... In all honesty, their dual spire build on fjords may just be something to fear :))
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I want to give an apologize to you imagine.
This past week has been very very hard for not just me, but my entire clan.
I'd like to give you an explanation as to why I would say something like I did in this thread. - but the reasons are so bizarre that it's best not written on the forums.
Although it came out as me being very agressive, reflecting back and reading it just feels like I slapped you in the face.
sorry for this, I'll try to not be such a jerk on the forum in the future.
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I want to give an apologize to you imagine.
This past week has been very very hard for not just me, but my entire clan.
I'd like to give you an explanation as to why I would say something like I did in this thread. - but the reasons are so bizarre that it's best not written on the forums.
Although it came out as me being very agressive, reflecting back and reading it just feels like I slapped you in the face.
sorry for this, I'll try to not be such a jerk on the forum in the future.
No hard feelings, I too am sorry that things got a little out of hand. I really do hope to see you and Corvus back flying on a regular basis!
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waiting 1.5 hours to lose was possibly one of the worst thing we have engaged as corvus
also skrim i was thinking about your second game against us...
http://cdn.meme.li/i/ojuy8.jpg
hehe I promise you if we hit northern fjords again, we'll bring double spire, we'll show you that it works.
We just need to get our shiz together again and get synched after this vacation :p
I'm also thinking of switching out for squid if the pyra gets hit by the 100 health nerf :p
please use double spires anytime you want, i love getting kills without using my guns it makes me feel more awesome than i already feel, which is difficult because i feel pretty fucking awesome
Oh madd.... so young :P.... In all honesty, their dual spire build on fjords may just be something to fear :))
young? my bad i thought id been here since the opening of beta... moving on from your obvious tomfoolery, i will make you this solemn oath: with goose and i and our full crews, we will NEVER lose to dual spires on any map, fjords or otherwise...
it is posted here for all to see, so anyone may come calling!
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barring any HUGE changes in upcoming patches obvi!! :P
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The Spire's slated to get a very small direct buff in the next patch however it will likely receive more than a few indirect buffs that'll probably get unnoticed until people start losing to double Spires in Sunday rumbles.
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The Spire's slated to get a very small direct buff in the next patch however it will likely receive more than a few indirect buffs that'll probably get unnoticed until people start losing to double Spires in Sunday rumbles.
lol, we will see... what i am really saying is that at the moment and for quite some time now, the spire is broken