Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Apex on March 07, 2013, 04:57:58 am
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For the basic of what I mean, look at this ugly picture.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/30737057/Guns%20Of%20Icarus%20Firing.png)
This basically shows how at any time you have to aim behind someone when you're turning. It's worst with the gattling/flamethrower because you don't even see the projectiles going where they actually are. I know I'm not as active as I should be, but this has bugged me since launch.
(If this is how it should be because kasdkakweastorquegforces, then at least fix the flamethrower/gattling to show where they're actually firing)
PPS: If this is in the wrong section I apologize it seemed like a good idea at the time.
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i agree, i would very much like to see where the gatling is actully fireing, the flamer isnt as much of a problem but thats probbly because you get a lot closer and notice it less
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Agreed.
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A good captain will not thrash his ship around to prevent this "bug" from effecting his gunners. A bad captain will blame his gunners for missing while completely unaware that his maneuvering contributed to their lack of accuracy.
I just consider it part of the game, and a part of the game that helps me win, so I am not complaining.
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A gremlin that jumps out of the computer monitor and bites your nads whenever you die would be part of the game as well, doesn't necessarily mean it should remain a part of the game. The question is whether the mechanic makes sense and is more fun overall than a "fixed" version. What's happening isn't communicated clearly in the game, made worse by the gatling's animation and inaccuracy which implies that it's not a hitscan weapon. I'd have to hear a more compelling argument for the current mechanic.
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Now the gattling is a special issue because it is Ray-cast while the effects are projectile. As for other weapons I felt ship turning affecting firing was totally justified because it would effect projectile momentum.
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I don't think spinning a gun causes the projectiles to come out the way they do. If anything it'd cause the projectile to spin or leave the barrel slower.
It really comes off as a lack of proper lag compensation. If you want a challenge to replace the current projectile issue make turrets turn with the ship or give them "wiggle" when a ship is turning/changing altitude.
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It's not justified, and it wouldn't adjust trajectory like it currently does. Otherwise, WANTED would be a pretty realistic movie. The only reason turning affects a gunner in real life is the fact that he'll have to swing his turret hard to keep on target.
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Keep in mid each turret has a turn rate value, and that turn rate is relative to ship orientation not player aim. The game auto turns a turret to compensate for ship rotation, but it is still limited by the turrets rotation speed. I think this bug is a side effect of the ship's turn rate outstripping the gun's turn rate.
Alternately it could be a client server lag issue. If the player sends a packet to the server that he is shooting a forward gun at a 15 degree offset to the right of the guns center orientation; and the a ship who is oriented at 10 degrees clockwise off north turning clockwise at 20 degrees per second. If the packet takes 0.1 a second to get to the server the server will interpret the shot to occur when the ship is oriented at 12 degrees clockwise off north and send the bullet out at 26 degrees clockwise off north instead of the 25 degrees clockwise off north the player was expecting.
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Keep in mid each turret has a turn rate value, and that turn rate is relative to ship orientation not player aim. The game auto turns a turret to compensate for ship rotation, but it is still limited by the turrets rotation speed. I think this bug is a side effect of the ship's turn rate outstripping the gun's turn rate.
A pain, though hard to fix without messing up the turn rate of the weapons.
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I think the turn rate of the weapons is intended to give the weapons a feeling of weight. Making the Manticore or Heavy Flack turn as fast as the player's look rotation would make them seem less substantial, even if it would improve the interface.
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From what I could tell, the issue is that the angular velocity of the ship incorrectly imparts a longitudinal component to the trajectory of the projectile. Obviously a rotating ship affects the velocity and direction of the projectile, but I think in this case angular velocity is being used instead of the angular-to-longitudinal transformed velocity. I'm pretty sure whoever programmed this will know what I'm talking about. I can draw pictures if you want.
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We know this is a potential issue and we're looking into it. In general though, angular velocity is VERY hard to predict whether you think you're right or not. It'll take some time for us to examine the code with a magnifying glass but it does sound like something strange might be going on. We know about it, it's on the task list. We've got a lot of stuff to do and we'll be at PAX this weekend so... hopefully the update after PAX will alleviate some of these concerns.
Furthermore, the gatling effects don't translate in world space properly. They're just parented to the gun and that's wrong. We know. However, the actual raycasts are respecting velocity. Although I can't elaborate on it completely, I'll dig it out of my email tomorrow.
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Also, I would be curious as to whether this effect feels any different now that the *other* gun turning bug has been fixed (it was in 1.1.5, shots didn't go quite where you would have expected when a gun was partially rotated in both axes).
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I'm getting varied results. Aiming when the ship is turning is fine, as the gun continues to rotate to keep you on target - you fire and because the ship is turning the round seems to come out almost sideways.
I expect shots to inherit momentum (10+ years of Tribes means I have a rather good understanding of the physics involved), but you try firing flak from any turning ship!
If you have a frame of reference (the front of a Goldfishes balloon, as the main Goldfish gunner as an example) then you can adjust to compensate. You know the ship is turning, you can manually adjust. If you have no frame of reference, such as a lower gun on a turning Junker when firing broadside, then I wish you the best of luck with your hail-mary shots.
I know communication is key with this, and I know most captains will try to keep it steady. However, with things as they are, ships like the Pyramidion and Goldfish are a little more.. user friendly, as you will be pointing your nose at the target, whereas a Junker will often circle to keep guns to bear, endlessly turning and ruining gunner's aims.
My two cents.
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Meh, I find the light flak easy to aim regardless of turning. The gat, on the other hand, is a bit harder to judge. The shots will often end up going where you don't expect them too (hence the point of this thread).
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Meh, I find the light flak easy to aim regardless of turning. The gat, on the other hand, is a bit harder to judge. The shots will often end up going where you don't expect them too (hence the point of this thread).
I find the gat easier - I can adjust the stream very quickly and keep the enemy in the sweet spot, I struggle more with the Flak. Different strokes for different folks..
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For the record: I found the problem, this will be fixed in an upcoming patch.
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For the record: I found the problem, this will be fixed in an upcoming patch.
That is very exciting news Watchmaker... Thanks!
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I was wondering why the gatling tracers didn't display properly to the gunner but do display properly to the captain. I don't know if I'm the only person that has noticed this or not it seems like the case to me.
As the captain on a squid that's making hard turns I can tell my gunner to bring the fire left or right a little and once he finds the spot hes good. But from experience I know the gunner isn't seeing the same tracer stream that I am seeing.
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I was just assuming my gunners where cross eyed to be honest. I couldn't really compare a gunner and myself on two monitors side by side to be sure. Might be a syncing issue?
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It's definitely still treating the raycast bullet stream weirdly with the angular momentum/velocity.
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The gat is still firing differently for the gunner and for anyone else watching. I can see him shooting way right or left but to him it's right on target.
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I get this too, in spite of Watchmaker's assertion he fixed it. I can only assume the bullets are being rendered on the player's computer base of the player's local state and on everyone else's computer based on the server's state. It is kind of a bummer since the hits are being calculated in the server's state and the one person who needs an accurate idea of where the bullets are in the server is the gunner who is shooting them.
I remember the original GOI multi player. My friend would be shooting off center of an airplane, then the airplane would explode as if his local machine detected the collisions and updated the server on the event of airplane death.
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I checked the patch notes, and it states this:
"- Fixed a bug with the way ship angular velocity was inherited by projectiles"
However, I really don't think so.
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Yeah, I don't think this is fixed.
Did a few games with a minigun on a turning ship and I clearly had to counter lead my own ship's turning.
It's very easy to see on the minigun because it is hit scan, and the bullets that draw go no where near where the hit indicators are popping up.
My best guess is that this is because firing packets are set with vectors that are relative to your ship. Since your ship is turning, it will be further along in that turn by the time your packet to fire is received, thus your bullets appear to be hitting further into your turn then you are aiming.
This is not angular velocity inheritance. For a few reasons:
1. The minigun projectile is hit scan, and thus there is no velocity to inherit since it already hits instantly.
2. Even if they just added an angular offset to 'simulate' angular inheritance, the values would be all wrong. - Math time go!
I was on a Goldfish with a side mounted minigun. It was making a turn of about 20 degrees per second but I had to counter lead my target by about 5 degrees to land hits where I wanted. This would suggest that angular inheritance was causing an offset of 5 degrees. For this to occur, it would require an angular velocity to muzzle velocity ratio of .087(Tangent of 5 degrees), or an angular velocity of about 9% of the muzzle velocity. Since most bullet projectiles travel about 1000m/s or so, This would mean we'd have to have an angular velocity of about 90m/s at the gun mount. For the goldfish that has its side gun about 10 meters from its center of turning, we'd have to be spinning at over 500 degrees per second and all the crew would go flying off the ship!
I'm not that experienced with network programming, but my best guess as for a solution is to giving fire details with absolute vectors so they wouldn't inherit the lag of the ship turning.
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Has anyone checked the rotation issue with the other raycast gun type (carronade) to see if the issue can be further isolated?
Also, if the issue was packet/latency related, wouldn't it also occur when a stationary ship was firing at a moving target?
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The carronade doesn't have tracers for me to watch... so I can't give input on that but it also inherits the turning from the ship.
Also you can say the math is wrong and all that and I wont argue but shooting a 50 cal from a fast moving boat while its turning does some seriously funky shit with the bullets. It "feels" right to me, but the tracers need to render properly for the gunner. Seriously this is the only issue worth fixing IMO.
JUST FIX THE TRACERS for the gunner, I do not understand why everyone else on the ship can see where the gunner is missing and help him walk his fire but the gunner will miss 9/10 shots if he is following the tracers.
When I'm flying the Pyri I spend more time saying gat too left/low/high/right than anything else, it might be because i fly like a drunk but you know. :P
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The carronade doesn't have tracers for me to watch... so I can't give input on that but it also inherits the turning from the ship.
When I'm flying the Pyri I spend more time saying gat too left/low/high/right than anything else, it might be because i fly like a drunk but you know. :P
No tracers, but the aim versus impact is important in terms of debugging, I'd say. So now we know it's not just gat, but the entire concept behind that type of weapon that's involved. I yell a lot to. I actually yell less when I'm drunk. Actually that's not true at all.
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Yes it does shift depending on the turn of the ship.... but why is that a problem? I'm not understanding why the angular velocity or whatever being put on the bullet is bad?
You're turning at 20degrees a second so the shot lands 20 degrees to that direction. Your descending at 5 feet a second so now the shot will hit 5 feet lower..... or am I being completely dense?
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I dunno, but raycast weapons work for me just fine. I'm certain I'm not "that" goog with them, but I have no problems with hitting with those 3 weapons.Balistic weapons still do inherit the rotational speed of the ship.
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Oh yeah, projectiles drag wildly...
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You're turning at 20degrees a second so the shot lands 20 degrees to that direction. Your descending at 5 feet a second so now the shot will hit 5 feet lower..... or am I being completely dense?
When a gun emplacement is being turned while firing, in real physics it actually imparts -linear- velocity, not angular velocity. The bullets do skew because of the motion, but they follow a linear path. They don't wrap around a spinning ship like a tornado, which is what angular velocity implies.