Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Daft Loon on November 12, 2015, 01:36:14 am
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Misc. observations on its usability since the patch. Primarily relating to experience using it on a spire.
Ammunition choices:
Heavy Clip - For long range scatter reduction, same as before
Greased - Valuable out to 500m or so, provides rather devastating push force and armor dps
Lochnagar - Eliminates scatter entirely and deals 405 armor damage making it lethal against spires, goldfish and squid (if you can hit them). Also has some merit for long range heavy gun sniping. Due to the delay between shots lochnagar actually has higher dps than heavy clip.
With 3 useful ammo choices and use for stamina in compensating for the turning speed a gunner is worthwhile for the Minotaur now.
Armor damage:
Highly dependent on the target. When lochnagar can be used it is the superior piercing weapon, this can be used against the Pyramidion as well by using lochnagar after a full clip of heavy connects or another weapon makes the armor likely to be <400. The Galleon has enough armor to force a reload and recover most of the damage in that time while the Junker and Mobula are difficult to get full hits on the armor.
Component damage:
Variable, the incidental damage is worthwhile and the front gun of the goldfish in particular is vulnerable because it is exposed and in the ideal target zone for turning the ship too.
Range:
I have inflicted useful disruption with the Minotaur out near the maximum range and useful damage at around 1000m max. On the other hand bringing it into within 300m for optimal greased rounds gets the maximum damage and disruption. The most effective tactic seems to be to use it at whatever range your opposition is weakest by disrupting them as much as possible while you advance or retreat from their optimal range, the Minotaur will almost certainly lose to Merc-Art at 1200m, Hwacha at <500m or Gat-Mortar at 200m but can choose to attack from any other range.
Weapon combinations:
Hades, Lumberjack and Light Flak benefit greatly from the ability to remove opponents from arming range.
Artemis can be used to disable the engines of a turned opponent which will additionally be more exposed and potentially damaged by kerosene use.
Banshee is the ideal second weapon for a Minotaur gunner, a full clip can be fired during the reload and the fire and damage is enough to prevent full repairs on armor.
Weaknesses:
Damage. The Minotaur is next to useless at 50% health and even fairly weak at 75% health. It becomes far too slow to shoot and turn. Even an out of proper range burst Hwacha or scattered Carronade hits will limit it severely.
Outflanking. A Minotaur spire can lock down a single ship but takes a fair while to kill compared to a Hwacha or Flak and is faster to recover from than being sunken by a Lumberjack. It also takes longer than most weapons to turn and have an effect on a new target.
Kerosene/Moonshine. I haven't noticed this being a problem but its possible people just don't know to use it, the higher push force spread over a longer time make it harder to use also.
Ethics: (This needs an ethics section :-\)
It is still really annoying and most new pilots cannot deal with it at all. Set up your ship and tactics to actually get the kill, being pushed around the map unable to retaliate for several minutes is incredibly frustrating. If your opponent requests you not use Minotaur don't use it (unless they took Mobula to your Spire in which case you have every right to Minotaur if you can pull it off).
What have you found fighting with or against the new Minotaur?
Out of 7 how annoying do you find the new Minotaur?
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My testing:
The minotaur's ideal ammos are: heatsink, lesmok and heavy. Heatsink puts out the most damage per clip, but fires the slowest and fires the slowest bullets. Therefore it is only viable at extremely close range. With a buff, the ammo will put 448.2 damage to armour per clip. With normal and lesmok ammo it will put out 432 damage per clip to armour. The perk of lesmok is that it increases the speed of the pellets from 550 m/s to 935 m/s! It moves from slow as a turtle to a much more reliable speed. This allows the gun to be much more reliable for tracking and hitting at mid to far range. This also makes lesmok the best overall ammo. Heavy is only for sniping critical guns like enemy hwachas. The damage is the same as normal at 432, but the speed of the shot is a mere 550 m/s, so not reliable for much else.
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I can see heatsink being a good alternative to greased, the +50% turn speed could be very nice.
I'm not sure about lesmok, by the time you get to range where its needed the scatter means most of the shot will miss anyway and the slight speed buff made heavy easier to hit with, maybe I just tend to have more predictable opponents though.
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I've been finding with the speed that lesmok is quite reliable at far range. In fact so reliable that it was often pushing the ship too far for even my hwacha to hit, which is when I switched to heavy flak. Now paired with a lesmok mino, a heavy flak can do the work it wants to do. Don't take my word for it though, try it out. The other nice thing is that my buffgineer on mino has time to fully buff the h. flak and get back to his gun in time while the gunner can make any ammo changes to the mino if needed.
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By my calculation the scatter at 1000m is 61m so if the target ship fills enough of that space to collect 3/5 buckshots it compares well to missing 1/3 heavy clip shots and for an engineer who leaves the gun to buff etc every reload missing only 1/3 heavy clip shots might be generous. I shall give it a try if I'm crewing/flying a ship with Minotaur secondary.
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Interesting point about Lochnagar; however, it's strange to me how Heavy Clip was nerfed to 70% but Lochnagar is left at 100%. As an ammo type, I appreciated it more when both had their roles more defined - to reduce spread and arming time respectively. Now, it seems Lochnagar is a superior choice to reduce spread for low ammo guns like the Heavy Carronade or even Minotaur.
I mostly have the same view as before regarding the Minotaur - effective range is too close to Hwacha because they have similar spread. It is a lot easier to hit now, however, because of high projectile speed. Can't think of any situation where it would replace the Hwacha on my Spire; wouldn't sacrifice a reliable, burst disable and killing power for a mediocre "disable". Perhaps it works well on a Galleon as Lumberjack/Hwacha support, or maybe a Minofish with side guns usage and rams.
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With a buff, the ammo will put 448.2 damage to armour per clip. With normal and lesmok ammo it will put out 432 damage per clip to armour. The perk of lesmok is that it increases the speed of the pellets from 550 m/s to 935 m/s!
Buffed Minotaur deals 864 armor damage per clip and lesmok and heavy do 648. I don't find lesmok useful due to the large spread. It's not hard to hit ships at over 1k and doing so yields more push than lesmok with the large dispersion. You're best off practicing with heavy.
Lochnagar increases dps to more than a buff engi only if there's an immediate mallet. Otherwise you're stuck at 69% reload speed for at least 5 seconds. Lochnagar is very useful for gunner. I prefer buff engi because it does overall higher damage, pushes more than loch, and is better at disabling. Along with all the other benefits of a buff. Gunner stamina is useful but you won't be breaking many components so you're stuck with the slowest stamina regen.
I regularly use Minotaur on spire and galleon. Spire is artemis top buffed banshee bottom and is especially good against fish. Galleon is banshee-taur-hwatcha carro-hwatcha. With the spanner mallet buff burst hwatcha in the back and wrench buff ext heavy in front you can have a fully buffed galleon with moonshine.
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It has gone from a multipurpose gun to a one trick pony. It used to be OK at close range for defense and long range disruption (though needed better balance). Narrowing the arc to 'balance' the higher damage and more force makes it next to useless close range on anything but a Spire.
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It still has the best overall arcs of any heavy gun and an effective range from 0 out to 1200+. The pre patch arcs with stamina felt rather silly to me when using them sometimes and would be too strong in the downward arc with the new force.
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Adding more force was a mistake and I don't feel was tested enough. I was doing testing, and did not know it was changed. Same actual change notes would be nice next time so we know what we are testing.
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With the somewhat plausible assumption that the force from each shot applies for 1 second greased Minotaur averages to 604KN force including reload time. For reference the spire has the highest thrust at 675KN with the pyramidion lowest at 450KN. The old Minotaur averaged 580KN also with greased albeit starting any engagement with a much lower push per clip.
At 30 degrees downwards arc the down force is 221KN average compared to 375KN minimum lift on the junker making it fairly significant.
I would probably be in favor of reverting the changes to force, jitter, turn speed and arcs. Retaining the changes to damage, reload and rate of fire. It would have less force overall with lower rate of fire but that won't be a problem with damage that can't be simply ignored.
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I played one game this evening. Then I had to take a break out of frustration. I flew a mid-range junker with a level 1 Pyramidian ally (who tried his darnedest, but was a level 2 engineer... sigh). Our opposition was a Hwatcha Goldfish and a Galleon with minotaurs. Everyone on the Galleon crew was under level 10, yet they dominated the match. My crew consisted of a normal friend I play with often and two novices (level 2 and 7, I believe). Those novices ragequit five minutes into the game because 'I wasn't giving them angles' because of constant minotaur hits. We proceeded to get wrecked to the tune of 4 to 1 until two solid players joined me and we brought the game back to 4 to 4. But we ultimately lost. Why? The minotaur. The @#%@# minotaur, which I already hated, but now I hate even more because it drove away my noob crew and put me at a supreme disadvantage for more than half the match. "Why, Atruejedi! Why didn't you use pilot tools to counter the bounce?" I was asked. I did. I used tons of kerosene, and I tried to time it properly. But it didn't matter. "But why fly a junker at all, then, Atruejedi? They are prime minotaur targets!" Do you want me to fly a more complex ship with people brand new to the game? No, thanks. The novices didn't repair dependably and the AI crew wasn't much better. The match went on for 40 or so minutes as my ally ran from place to place as I begged him to stay alive (he died 4 times by the end with zero kills) and tried to kill the enemy ships. I did destroy four of them, but the minotaurs made my life hell.
Is anyone familiar with Team Fortress 2? Minotaurs are like the items in that game that take control away from the player, and NO ONE ENJOYS THAT. Valve completely nerfed the baseball bat that immobilized players because of the outrage. How is the minotaur not suffering the same backlash? People love USING it, but no one enjoys fighting AGAINST it. It's the most rage-inducing weapon in the game, first an all-too-weak-yet-evil weapon, and now an extremely effective and therefore even more annoying weapon!
THE RAGE IS REAL.
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The minotaur is really good in pubs against uncoordinated players in the same way the flamethrower is. It's too weak to be used reliably against experienced players, but buffing it makes it far too strong against fresh blood, and nerfing it causes it to teeter on the edge of complete extinction. I would have rather this gun never existed and Muse focused on making a different one. Oh well. Too late now
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I recently sent a feedback email in one part of which was more or less 'I can't use the Minotaur as much as i want to because...' see above. It would probably be worth them hearing from several people that the probably in my 'probably not very fun for the other team' isn't needed.
Edit:
I'm wondering if there is anything to learn from the minelauncher which has its place in the game quite well including disruption of steering and the harpoon which does the same but has never been more than a novelty.
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The mine launcher is acceptable because you at least have a choice when engaging a ship with it. If a pilot gets him or herself into a position where mines from the enemy are actively bouncing the ship around, well, that's on the pilot. The ship shouldn't have gotten close enough for mines to be an issue. The deployability (that's a word now) of mines and the short range of the launcher and the high skill ceiling of using it give plenty of risks to the pilot and crew of that vessel but rich (and hilariously mischievous) rewards when executed properly. I'll admit, I was hesitant to use mines at first... and I'm personally awful at launching them... but holy hell, flying a mine Mobula with three skilled crew mates? Fly high and get into a good position and... wow. Risky, though. But when pulled off... satisfaction!
With the minotaur, the obvious difference, which I'm sure we all agree on, is the range, which removes the choice players have when engaging the enemy. Hell, on a map like Water Hazard, I'm pretty certain all ships spawn within range of the minotaur. Eek. Hellish. Compared to mines... I can avoid mines by maneuvering my ship or shooting mine launchers before they become a problem, or taking longer range weapons to engage the entire ship. Not so with the minotaur, where, even if I chose to "counter" it with mercuries, artemiseseses, etc., I still might not be able to do so because I'm busy getting spun in circles...
To answer your original question, Daft Loon... SEVEN. A RESOUNDING SEVEN. I'm at the point where I feel like a bully even flying on a ship equipped with one and just find another ship... karma, y'know?
#playerchoice #boycottbouncing #minotaurmalfeasance #ridingonspinners #nerfnow #removetherage
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#minotriggered
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Unless someone can correct me, moonshine reduces the effects to 1/10: 1/3 that of kero. Minotaur shooting the front of a moonshine pyra has very little effect and that's the best ship against. The only ship that's vulnerable to taur despite using moonshine is fish.
Getting hit by double taur on galleon sure is annoying but it's not effective besides the damage. The reload is 10 seconds. If you wanna reduce the force then ok but then it'll only be effective against not using tools. It would be a heavy merc with some push.
I don't have a clear idea on balance anymore since all the changes but it's not unbalanced now. People haven't been complaining about the damage so I don't get what's wrong. Yes it's annoying because it's annoying in principal. The complaints are that it's viable and exists.
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I think it's a psychological bias (cue Logicalia). Heavy guns are powerful. Lumberjack shuts down your balloon and hwatcha disables everything. Heavy clip minotaur bumps you 3 times every 20 seconds. As the player with the most Minotaur experience the push isn't unbalanced. You'd rather see your balloon or everything broken instead of being pushed around. Again no one's complaining about the damage so I don't see a problem.
Of course I'd prefer it be a projectile instead of an invisible shotgun, and it's a bit too easy to shoot, but these complaints about it being viable are just that: complaints about being viable. The minotaur works now and people don't like it. You don't bring spire against hades double art or you'll have a bad time. Same with the Minotaur. When do you bring taur over lumber or hwatcha.
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I think one thing people don't like about it vs the other heavy weapons is the fact that when you start getting Lumberjacked and Hwacha'd it's a bit of a team effort to deal with them as you rely on your engineers to overcome the challenges they present by crippling a certain part of your ship while your pilot attempts to stop it by either being evasive or going offensive on the said ship. With minotaur, it's always been up to the pilot. You get pushed around every 20 seconds and your crew cant do anything other than watch you rage. The shatter and piercing damage it does addresses this problem partially now as it gives the engineers something to repair constantly, but the fact remains that minotaur affects horizontal ship positioning aggressively (as opposed to hwacha affecting it passively by reducing or removing your ability to control it, aggressively just means it actively forces you in one direction) and as long as the crew doesn't have a component, tool or anything that can help the situation like they can with a hwacha or lumberjack, minotaur will continously be complained about.
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Blackenedpies, if you have to bring moonshine to counter any ship that has a mino on it only illustrates how broken it is. It is the only gun that requires a pilot tool. Every other gun can simply be outflown.
As for timing, I tell my gunners to shoot sporadically, firing a couple shots as fast at they can, wait a few seconds and fire again, then wait five seconds to fire the last shot. Mix it up every time. That easily messes up pilots that know how to deal with perfectly timed shots. It can't be countered with tools.
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What if - borrowing from the fact that lumberjack and carronade force you to go downwards and gives you control over everything else - instead of mino pushing ships about, it would simply reduce your momentum in the directio you're going and eventually push you backwards? Ie, same push effect, but doesnt turn you around, hit a sideways pyramidion and it bounces away from you sideways, hit one charging forwards, it stops it and if its not charging forward pushes it directly backwards. That way your gunners still get to keep arcs + it becomes much more reliable when used in conjunction with arming time weapons. But considering you can be shot back, either the push force or the firing rate has to be increased even more for it to be functional in any sort of high level gameplay.
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I don't really see how bringing moonshine or kerosene to counter minotaur is any different from bringing droge chute to counter caronade or lumberjack, or bringing chemspray to counter flamethrower.
I've seen this same kind of anti crowd control campaigning in other games and it always baffles me. Multiplayer games with no crowd control just devolve into boring dps races of who can get the first shot in.
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I don't bring chute to counter poppers most of the time. As long as you know what to expect (go down), it is not hard to build a plan around that. You are still in control of your ship for the most part. Mino is different. Your ship's reaction to being hit are random based on where you get hit, taking away the ability to predict or compensate. The enemy gunner takes control of your ship. That is why people rage about it.
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I wouldn't say it has control of my ship. I do. Even if it bumps me around.. meh. I'll deal with it, I know how to get my ship pointed the way I want it. With that said, honestly, I don't think anyone who brings the Mino solely for the push effect is too serious about it. It'll push an enemy a little bit out of arc, sure, but that's not what I need a gun to be able to do. Particularly not a heavy weapon. While the push effect is a nice little bonus to help deal with a charging enemy, what matters is really the damage. So, as long as a Mino gunner is mistakenly aiming for my balloon, I'll deal with it and be glad it's not any other heavy weapon.
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I played one game this evening. Then I had to take a break out of frustration. I flew a mid-range junker with a level 1 Pyramidian ally (who tried his darnedest, but was a level 2 engineer... sigh). Our opposition was a Hwatcha Goldfish and a Galleon with minotaurs. Everyone on the Galleon crew was under level 10, yet they dominated the match. My crew consisted of a normal friend I play with often and two novices (level 2 and 7, I believe). Those novices ragequit five minutes into the game because 'I wasn't giving them angles' because of constant minotaur hits. We proceeded to get wrecked to the tune of 4 to 1 until two solid players joined me and we brought the game back to 4 to 4. But we ultimately lost. Why? The minotaur. The @#%@# minotaur, which I already hated, but now I hate even more because it drove away my noob crew and put me at a supreme disadvantage for more than half the match. "Why, Atruejedi! Why didn't you use pilot tools to counter the bounce?" I was asked. I did. I used tons of kerosene, and I tried to time it properly. But it didn't matter. "But why fly a junker at all, then, Atruejedi? They are prime minotaur targets!" Do you want me to fly a more complex ship with people brand new to the game? No, thanks. The novices didn't repair dependably and the AI crew wasn't much better. The match went on for 40 or so minutes as my ally ran from place to place as I begged him to stay alive (he died 4 times by the end with zero kills) and tried to kill the enemy ships. I did destroy four of them, but the minotaurs made my life hell.
Is anyone familiar with Team Fortress 2? Minotaurs are like the items in that game that take control away from the player, and NO ONE ENJOYS THAT. Valve completely nerfed the baseball bat that immobilized players because of the outrage. How is the minotaur not suffering the same backlash? People love USING it, but no one enjoys fighting AGAINST it. It's the most rage-inducing weapon in the game, first an all-too-weak-yet-evil weapon, and now an extremely effective and therefore even more annoying weapon!
THE RAGE IS REAL.
Wait...
Waitaminute..
I was in that match
What you say isn't entirely true.
You were in a junker that had a gat/flak side I believe. Very little disable. I think you only had a front artemis. The reason the match took so long was that the galleon wasn't really doing anything. Certainly not "dominating." So ya, it took a hwachafish I think 15-20 minutes to get 3 kills.. Then we almost exclusively targeted your junker. And Kudos to you and your crew, it just wouldn't die.. at all.. like, damn, you had some good engies over there. Our pilot made a couple mistakes, and when you were able to capitalize on them, you got a couple kills on us. After we went down (and reliable hwachas stopped disabling you) is when you were able to kill the galleon. After the 50ish minute mark (the match took about 55 mins btw) we decided to switch back to the pyra to just get a kill and end it. which happened. And again, they had a damn good engie.. Fehnril? something along those lines (If you see this let me know). So ya, it took a good long while, but considering the two heavy hitters were a hwachafish and a gat/flak junker, I'm not too concerned.
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As a new player it took me like half the match to realize I was being hit by a minotaur from a Galleon while flying a Pyrmidion but once I did it was not very relevant. It was kind of a neat trick to keep me from diving straight at them but simply alternations and combinations of reverse-turning, going up and down, and some pilot skills were enough to minimize the mino hits - just like dodging any shots.
I equipped my spire with a minotaur and we got a compliment on using it from our allied captain, but that thing is hard to shoot. I was trying to use range finder but I still had to get a lot off feedback on arc adjustments because it was my first time on the spire and first time with a mino on a ship. I probably limited our gunner to 20%-30% accuracy at <600m. And I found other crews wouldn't even shoot it and preferred the rocket launcher and hades as we could not use an artemis effectively either. My idea was to have a long range support ship and it seemed to work to some noobish degree. But I did notice that even at close range with more hits the damage was pretty low. We were definitely carried in any match I brought that ship to.
Those are the only times I've seen a minotaur in action, only one ship I've been up against ever had it. That's probably why new players get so frustrated, if you don't know what it is it's easy to get frustrated. I am more frustrated going up against cannonade on a goldfish that stomps you into the ground and hwatcha spam in general. Maybe that's because I see that kind of stuff and don't see minos in action.
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Great feedback Nijay. Keep in mind you need to use heavy clip ammo at anything over 300m to be effective. It has five pellets and you want all of them to hit the same place and ideally the armor/components which does the most damage. Most of the players I encounter aren't using heavy clip.
On paper it's pretty easy to shoot. It shoots straight at 550 m/s. The problem is that it's hard to see the projectile. The rangefinder is for testing purposes and has little use in game. The feature telling you where to aim is broken. I recommend binding your map close by and using that. Each square is 500m or about a second of travel time.
On spire it truly shines against fish. One shot can destroy a heavy gun and the long profile of fish makes them vulnerable to being pushed. Banshees pair well with it and your gunner will want heavy clip, greased (close range), and heatsink/lochnagar. Lochnagar does big damage but you have to stay off and repair it until it's at full health (because of long reload).
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that is the kind of feedback about a weapon that is useful and specific, so applause for nijay
its true that the mino is not that useful against ships that are relatively short in profile, but not ineffective by any means.
the galleon is very vulnerable to mino attack due to its large blind spots, and by virtue of the fact that presenting those weapons shows its longest profile, making it fairly easy to turn around wich careful aim. that said its heavy so you have to hit it a few times to make it move much.
the goldfish is easy to shift around because its long and light, as you said, its easy to push around.
the junker is kinda useless to push around because it spins so quickly and it has so few blind spots. by the time you repoad chances are it has already returned fire, and tried to dismantle the mino cannon
squid: good work if you can get it, but good luck. It's so light it WILL move, but it spins quickly, so can correct and avoid your arc long before you reload, in my experience anyway
mobula is pretty vulnerable because its longest profile is presented when it turns its weapons on you, so pushing it out of arc is easier at this time, its kinda heavy though, and if you arent using heavy, you will miss too much to get it to move far enough to be safe.
spire: its worth using for sniping out parts, but its not going to spin... almost at all
the pyra is fun to kick around, it has huge blindspots and a long profile, but its moderately heavy. worth a concerted effort to keep it from charging you down.
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To note: goldfish and spire weigh the same at 150 tons and mobula and junker weigh nearly the same with mobula at 125 and junker 120. Squid 95, pyra 200, and galleon 320.
http://gunsoficarusonline.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Airships
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Is there any numbers for armor damage? I heard that lochnagar mino can brake the armor of a squid, goldfish, and spire with one shot. I have also seen loch mino brake heavy guns in one shot. Is Heavy clip still useful for braking heavy guns? or is loch more useful with the narrow spread? Greased still seems to be the best ammo for the mino at close range.
If I want to push ships out of gun arcs what is the best ammo to use? If I want to brake guns with the shatter damage what is the best ammo to use? If I just wamt to brake armor what is the best ammo to use?
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If you want some numbers I'd recommend checking out the llamatron: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php?topic=5621.0 (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php?topic=5621.0) It should be updated with correct values for the latest patch as far as I know.
Now I'm no expert at minotaur and I bet you're gonna get much better advice from someone like Richard or Blackened, but using buffed heavy mino to destroy heavy guns in one shot works, and greased still dominates in close range. At least in my limited experienced with mino.
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Llamatron! http://ducksoficarus.servegame.com/
Minotaur does 180 armor and 468 component damage per shot. Loch does 405 armor damage which can break a squid, goldfish, or spire. It's good against heavy guns at closer range with good aim. Heavy clip is good and can often break heavy guns in two shots at mid range. Your primary ammo on taur is heavy which is the best for control and reliable damage
For gunner I'd go with heavy, loch, and heatsink. Greased is good for close range but it reduces the already slow turning speed. For pushing you'll mostly be using heavy clip. Greased and heatsink are only for close range and have little control over 300m besides bumping them away. With heavy clip and a good gunner you choose where they point
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Don't overlook Charged. It can one-shot any gun at close range, and two-shot most ship armors. All without too much shoving around in those situations you don't want your target to move much.
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In general greased is better than charged due to its higher dps and dpc. Charged has high damage per shot but it's also 4.04 seconds between shots
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I know that, but greased will often mess up the angles or distance of the target for your gunners. There have been quite a few times where greased Mino has turned a helpless ship's guns back on me, or pushed a ship just out of range or arc. If you want damage with more control, Charged is the way to go.
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I really want to see a mino/flak galleon two shot a goldfish.
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I really want to see a mino/flak galleon two shot a goldfish.
Fish can survive loch if I remember correctly, spires though...
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I really want to see a mino/flak galleon two shot a goldfish.
Fish can survive loch if I remember correctly, spires though...
What if you buff it?
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I really want to see a mino/flak galleon two shot a goldfish.
Fish can survive loch if I remember correctly, spires though...
What if you buff it?
Fish can be killed in two shots.
Buff loch mercury will strip buffed fish armour one shot.
Buffed loch h-flak will kill all fish hull.
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Loch flak does 1039 dmg and fish has 1100 hull. As long as you don't hit any components the fish is essentially dead. I experimented with a gat taur flak galleon and it's tricky against fish. You need heavy clip taur to knock them around and damage armor while the gat breaks it. Getting hit by a hwatcha screws the plan. You could try an artemis top but you're much better off with hwatcha taur
My default brawl galleon is banshee taur hwatcha (right carro hwatcha) which is great against fish. The buffed taur and banshee disrupt at range until the hwatcha is ready. Buffed heavy clip taur deals 650 armor damage per clip, buffed burst hwatcha 475, and greased banshee 220. Weak armoured ships like goldfish are quickly broken and hurt by the combined armor and hull damage