Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Connor Mc. on April 02, 2013, 11:18:01 pm
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I'm not complaining, but I did have a bit of an eye opening experience today against a double Mercury Gun Pyramidean. It was very hard for me to counter as I'm not very used to fighting those types of load outs and got annihilated, so, I was wondering, how do you guys usually maneuver when faced with this situation?
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I'm usually the one with the mercs, so I don't have to worry :P
The best thing to do is move up and down and make them miss some shots. Once you get close, remember that their arc isn't very wide. Mercs aren't very good at short range.
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They are after all the sniper rifle of GoI
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Yeah but, the issue I see with that is:
In most games sniper rifles become completely useless once you start moving.
In Icarus, a dual pyramidion can have the reverse throttle cranked, and be actively fleeing from a pursuing ship while still dishing out some amazing damage. I remember my days as the main sniper on the Lucky Duck, landing shot after shot while the Duck was on the move. So a pyramidion with mercs on the side can still move and fire fairly effectively, too.
It's not that easy to get up close to a sniping ship that knows what they're doing. Especially if he has a buddy doing the same thing.
As long as the ship isn't actively turning, it's incredibly difficult to not hit a ship with the merc and wreck people that approach you. It's kind of bananas.
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Hah, you shoulda seen what the merc used to be like. Mercs take a long time to get a kill now.
I actually find the merc to be very well balanced since close range weapons are much more effective than the merc once in range.
On every map other than dunes, you can use terrain to block the ranged shots of your opponent and change altitude rapidly as you close the final distance to your target.
If your on dunes, you'll need some chutzpah, a buffing hammer on board and some moonshine but you'll be in their face before they know it. Don't forget how fast a squid can close, it can be on top of a sniper before they know what hit em (In tournaments I'll out snipe but in pub matches the squid is my preferred approach).
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But that's just the problem. It's counter is A) Counter sniping B) a highly specific squid build.
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Depends how many dual-sniper Pyras you're up against on Dune.
I'll wager that against two sniper-Pyras, a single brawler-sniper Pyra with a Squid as spotter darting in and out the wreckage could do quite well from a position hidden behind clouds in a long drawn out game. The options the opposing pair of snipers are left with are coming in to a close and facing the flak-chain brawler front armament with a harassing Squid dashing around them at the same time, or splitting up so that they can spot for each other.
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4 mercs (two pyra's) on something like dunes is a nightmare. i mean you can try to close but they'll prolly get a kill if they target the same ship then its 2v1 and you've got some disadvantageous spawning happening.
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I think dunes needs moving clouds. I dont think its an issue with the gun so much as the map. But ill leave that for thought and get on with mercs.
You really have only two options with merc sniping pyra's. Close extremely quickly or out-snipe them. People who run those builds usually find a nice open area and sit. Staying low will present them a harder shot around your balloon as you charge in. If you can make them split up their fire, thats a big boon to you. Once youre in close the mercs get real useless due to the arcs, so avoid their backup guns and there you have it.
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4 mercs (two pyra's) on something like dunes is a nightmare. i mean you can try to close but they'll prolly get a kill if they target the same ship then its 2v1 and you've got some disadvantageous spawning happening.
Yeah that's where I was, and the Pyra just kept backing up and taking out my forward gun (Goldfish).
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I thought u were a beta player mercs are nothing like they use to be
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They're still devastating weapons.
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I thought u were a beta player mercs are nothing like they use to be
I am a beta player, but I joined a week before the end I believe. I do remember the Mercs being very powerful but it's been awhile since I've been up against a double merc pyra
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i find the issue with the merc's isnt so much with the mercs themselves. its when they are set up on a pyra.
you can set them up on the side and turn at the start of a match and blast holes in everything. and if they close you just turn and use your front guns and fight a mid to close range battle.
its the only ship that can go from fully sniper to fully mid/close assault and it does it with good health, easy repair set up, and good speed. its just a silly ship and the mercs really point that out. :P
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I joined after Beta, but I started taking up the double Merc Pyra recently after the reduction in explosive armor breaking made the heavy flack a less dominant weapon. I normally mount them on the side of the Pyra so I can use the front guns for close in work where I have to exert more control of the distance.
I use them under certain conditions, such as:
If an ally is getting double teamed and I don't think they will survive long enough to rush to their aid.
If I am on a capture point and want to cause damage without leaving it.
If I am waiting for a the capture point swap on Crazy King and want to weaken the other team from the 1/2 way point to the new capture point.
Unless the other ship has incompetent engineers I don't expect the mercs to kill the other ship, but they will keep the engineers distracted and annoy the captain.
@ JaegerDelta
You can also do that with a junker, but the junker isn't as good at brawling as the Pyramidion is. Since you have flown both with me and against me in the past few days while I was fielding the ship setup you discribe, I will assume you are referring to the "Mo Dakka Dakka Dakka." In which case thank you, I do try for silly whenever I can.
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na i was just refering to that set up in general, and all its crazyness :P
and yeah the junker can go from full snipers to full close/mid weps but it is slow, has a slightly more dificult repair set up, and doesnt have the health of a pyra. :P
also who has two thumbs and goes off topic? this guy *thumbs point at self*
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The secret to quick sniper to brawler switch on the Junker is Phoenix claw. Because of the small distance to travel to close range guns the Junker makes the transition just as quick if not quicker than a Pyra when using the claw.
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Moonshine
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Dunes is a wide open map. If there are no obstacles or concealment to hide behind, I think it's perfectly acceptable that a sniping build is effective. However, I definately agree with the need for clouds, or some way to complicate the ship's works. I think it's more of a map problem than anything. If the map is such that almost no maneuvering is required (and therefore not much skill as a gunner), can you blame people for not trying to make things more difficult for themselves?
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Overcoming a Sniping build in Dunes is possible (and not easy in the slightest). If you don't believe me, watch the match between Merry Northern Storm and the Paddling. While the outcome was not in favor of MNS, we were still able to surprise them in the beginning.
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I would point out that match was settled at medium distance.
However the leap out of the clouds was terrifying. It was like watching Jaws, you knew it was out there. And you knew it was coming for you. Basically we didn't see anything until we were getting munched.
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I would point out that match was settled at medium distance.
However the leap out of the clouds was terrifying. It was like watching Jaws, you knew it was out there. And you knew it was coming for you. Basically we didn't see anything until we were getting munched.
I'm only saying that combating this type of build is possible.... just not easy....
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Looking at the Screen you posted in the other thread, I'm guessing it worked against the gents.
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I think dunes needs moving clouds. I dont think its an issue with the gun so much as the map. But ill leave that for thought and get on with mercs.
This can easily be rectified.
Furthermore, it's always double something Pyramidion. Maybe I'll just take a gun off the Pyra, puahahahaha.
jk
maybe :P
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@awkm Replace one of the guns with a water slide, everybody likes water slides.
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Looking at the Screen you posted in the other thread, I'm guessing it worked against the gents.
Yeah, but the match was in Duel, which favored CQB
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Played against a cogs team in a friendly skirmish they brought out the old double pya and 4 mercs... It was slightly ridiculous. We couldn't save the galleon even with three engies at the hull.
Essentially there is no approach if they can see you.
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Played against a cogs team in a friendly skirmish they brought out the old double pya and 4 mercs... It was slightly ridiculous. We couldn't save the galleon even with three engies at the hull.
Essentially there is no approach if they can see you.
The Gentlemen took two sniper pyramidions against Skrimskraws galleon on Battle of the Dunes. Me and Vetta were gunning Lumberjacks on the port broadside with a Merc on top.
As soon as one LB starts hitting even just one shot of each clip;- the pyra loses a gunner because the Balloon needs fulltime attention;- two bullets per clip and the pyra captain has to move out of sight.
They both ended up hiding in the tubular structure trying to snipe from cover;- but as soon as they got spotted or moved slightly in vision they were getting slaughtered just by the LB broadside.
We took them 5-0 twice in a row;
If you have gunners with Lumberjack experience and a Captain that knows what they do;- mercs don't stand a chance - their best effort would be to keep disabling the guns - straight up;- the LB will win everytime on equal hits
Another moral to the story is that the best defense is a good offense - if you see the enemy uses Mercs before the match starts and you insist on using two close range ships;- obviously you can't just facecharge them to get close range. Use one long range weapon yourself and force the enemy captain to move or take out enemy guns
The only reason mercuries are so powerful is because the captains that are facing them let them be efficient.
If you're still in the lobby and you see two pyra's against you that have mercs either on front or on their side and you decide to go with a light carronade or hwacha you're just kind of asking for it;- I know it sucks to use loadouts you don't prefer but a really big part of becoming a good pilot is using guns that work against your enemy;- not just guns you like.
I'm a huge Lumberjack fanatic and people still disagree with me that it's a much more powerful long range weapon than mercs;- if not the most powerful weapon in the game - I'm trying to convince captains to use it more often and allow gunners to train up on them
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What Phoebe said, I can't agree with this enough.
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What Lord Dick Tim said, I can't agree with him enough
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But your Lumberjack-Merc Galleon is vulnerable to Squids, unless you have closer range guns on the other broadside and you can cover your back with a wall.
It's what makes the game interesting, it's rock-paper-scissors where there's always a counter that's vulnerable to something else.
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So Goldie vs Merc Pyra should have a lumberjack over a Hwacha?
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So Goldie vs Merc Pyra should have a lumberjack over a Hwacha?
I find that the Goldfish's front gun is way too easy to take out for it to be effective against a merc Pyra.
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So Goldie vs Merc Pyra should have a lumberjack over a Hwacha?
I find that the Goldfish's front gun is way too easy to take out for it to be effective against a merc Pyra.
Very true, so no Goldies at all? Or only Goldfish's when I become the greatest Pilot in the universe?
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So Goldie vs Merc Pyra should have a lumberjack over a Hwacha?
I find that the Goldfish's front gun is way too easy to take out for it to be effective against a merc Pyra.
Very true, so no Goldies at all? Or only Goldfish's when I become the greatest Pilot in the universe?
Rock, Paper, Scissors..
If you're opponent has Paper and you persist in trying Rock - it doesn't matter whether you polish it or roll it in glitter, it's still a turd.
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So Goldie vs Merc Pyra should have a lumberjack over a Hwacha?
I find that the Goldfish's front gun is way too easy to take out for it to be effective against a merc Pyra.
Very true, so no Goldies at all? Or only Goldfish's when I become the greatest Pilot in the universe?
Rock, Paper, Scissors..
If you're opponent has Paper and you persist in trying Rock - it doesn't matter whether you polish it or roll it in glitter, it's still a turd.
so rocks are turds? you'll just stain the paper
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So Goldie vs Merc Pyra should have a lumberjack over a Hwacha?
I find that the Goldfish's front gun is way too easy to take out for it to be effective against a merc Pyra.
Very true, so no Goldies at all? Or only Goldfish's when I become the greatest Pilot in the universe?
Rock, Paper, Scissors..
If you're opponent has Paper and you persist in trying Rock - it doesn't matter whether you polish it or roll it in glitter, it's still a turd.
so rocks are turds? you'll just stain the paper
Wipe'n'flush. And don't forget to wash your hands.
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Mercs can be beaten, but beating it with special builds and OTHER snipers isn't the best way to go about it, this is why snipers are so hated in many other games and so much time is spent designing new mechanics to make it easier to counter snipers (like TF2's kill cam showing you where the Sniper's hiding), you don't want the game to consist solely of snipers and those trying to kill them. Rock paper scissors is actually a horrible thing to compare a video game's balance to for anything that can't be changed mid-game, I mean when's the last time you had real fun playing rock paper scissors? It's an example of something that's balanced but not fun, you're just as likely as your opponent to pick a hard counter but its mostly luck whether you pick what your opponent's weak to, you're at a disadvantage over something other than skill.
It's more tolerable in a game like TF2 (the engineer/spy and spy/pyro relationships) because you're one of many players and you personally dying to one person on the other team doesn't matter much, especially since you can swap your class whenever you die. There's enough players that the rock paper scissors relationship become a contest to see which team can better balance their team to fit the situation. In a game where you're committed to a choice for the duration of a match or save file (RPG's are the worst place to have rock paper scissor balance by far) it feels cheap, that the player who just beat you won because of something beyond your control. You just kind of accept that you're going to lose to worse players because you picked the wizard at character creation and they picked the witchhunter, not fun stuff.
That being said, I think the issue is more with the maps than any real fault of the Merc. We're flying huge, relatively slow-moving ships in the sky where you generally aren't going to find much of anything other than clouds and the occasional mountain. Those are the perfect conditions for sniping and if military airships were a real thing they probably would be all about the range, we see this in science fiction with starships all the time. The only thing working in our favor is the setting's limited technology and low altitudes. On Dunes you spawn in the open with nothing to put between you and the enemy snipers. It'd be nice if there were more maps like Canyon, with lots of cover and little opportunity for sniping. Things are densest in Desert Scrap but I've yet to meet anyone that actually enjoys that glitchy campfest. If it weren't for that achievement...
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With the max range of a Lumberjack quoted (as per the Wiki ... I can't find the forums post since gun stats went to graphical display in-game) at 1200m, it's roughly 1/3 the range of the Merc. This is why I think clouds and such are the important parts. If I put max range between a Merc and a Lumberjack, it will take the Lumberjack nigh on a minute just to close the gap head-on, full speed.
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think your looking at old data or something info on the website says its something like 3800 no i have no clue if that's practical range or distance traveled before the shell explodes.
Now i am a lumberjack fan BUT they need to work in conjunction with another gun, this is the reason you rarely see a double jack on a galleon, but often see the Flakjack.
The merc has no such limitations
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With the max range of a Lumberjack quoted (as per the Wiki ... I can't find the forums post since gun stats went to graphical display in-game) at 1200m, it's roughly 1/3 the range of the Merc. This is why I think clouds and such are the important parts. If I put max range between a Merc and a Lumberjack, it will take the Lumberjack nigh on a minute just to close the gap head-on, full speed.
I can hit lumbers well past 1200m - I've taken balloons down on opposite spawn on Dunes and Fjords within 10 seconds of either ship moving;- the range is far beyond massive - the "practical" range of a lumberjack isn't set in stone;- it's a variable that differs per gunner
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I can hit lumbers well past 1200m - I've taken balloons down on opposite spawn on Dunes and Fjords within 10 seconds of either ship moving;- the range is far beyond massive - the "practical" range of a lumberjack isn't set in stone;- it's a variable that differs per gunner
By practical distance i don't mean accuracy. I mean the distance the shell can travel between points A and B assuming perfect gunning.
Obviously since it arcs a lot it'll loose at least a 1/4 of its paper range, probably even more. I say this on the fairly save assumption that the range of the shell is measured by the total distance traveled in the parabolic curve.
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By practical distance i don't mean accuracy. I mean the distance the shell can travel between points A and B assuming perfect gunning that Morblitz is shooting.
Fixed
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I played a match where I loaded a double merc prym. my team mates would close in while me and my crew would hang back and disable them or pound their hull into oblivion.
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actually just seen that the light motor out ranges the Artemis rocket launcher on paper, anyone that's even thought of comparing the relative ranges knows this simply inst true, and just means the light motor will very rarely (if ever) air burst.
I'd propose the lumber/merc dynamic is exactly like this
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I played a match where I loaded a double merc prym. my team mates would close in while me and my crew would hang back and disable them or pound their hull into oblivion.
That works well with a brawler-sniper, where you're turning and using the side mounts to snipe. Your tactical mobility is reduced and your a static target, so having someone in the midfield controlling the closing phase is very useful. However, on Dunes having a pair of dual-sniper Pyras with their Mercs on the front mounts means that with both ships in full reverse they don't need a midfielder and can maintain the range long enough to deal with both targets in turn.
As the problem primarily affects the Pyra build far more than the other classes, any fix is going to need to have a bigger effect on that class. A suggestion:
- reduce the reverse engines speed of the Pyra to reduce it's ability to maintain range in this style of play; and
- increase the engine vibration and gun jitter for all ships when Moonshine/Kerosene/Phoenix Claw are in use.
If a Pyra can't reverse fast enough to maintain the range long enough, then Moonshine/Kerosene will be needed. There already is an engine vibration effect when tools are used that have a detrimental effect on the engine, if this was increased and it caused increased jitter to a weapons aim this would nerf the dual-sniper Pyra build that relies on reversing away from the target at the start. Given the narrow boresight of the Mercs scope, this weapon would be disproportionately affected.
I'm unsure whether any fix should be applied quickly or be delayed. The heralding of the mine launcher as a light weapon suggests that current strategies may require a rethink once it's released and tested. Depending on the range and durability of mines these may change the sniper meta for the worse (laying mines across the midfield to further discourage closing on a sniper), or may provide an opportunity for a counter (dropping mines over the sniper and behind him to discourage retreating-while-sniping).
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[...] or may provide an opportunity for a counter (dropping mines over the sniper and behind him to discourage retreating-while-sniping).
Wouldn't this require you to have a greater mine throwing distance than Merc's range? I can't see that happening--if it was possible to put mines behind them, the whole closing-through-sniping concept would be a non-issue already.
Mines are going to turn this game into trench warfare.
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[...] or may provide an opportunity for a counter (dropping mines over the sniper and behind him to discourage retreating-while-sniping).
Wouldn't this require you to have a greater mine throwing distance than Merc's range? I can't see that happening--if it was possible to put mines behind them, the whole closing-through-sniping concept would be a non-issue already.
Mines are going to turn this game into trench warfare.
Or you send in a fast Squid to lay the mines to trap the sniper before the rest of the team close. Admittedly this would work best in 3v3 and not facing three snipers on the opposition.
Remember, at the moment the sniper can only reverse slightly slower than the opponent can advance. Laying mines behind the sniper would only affect the last third of the rush to the sniper. It can't be a counter all on its own.
The more I think about it, the more I'd like some sort of jitter-based mechanic that throws the aim of long-range weapons whilst reversing or using moonshine/kerosene. It's the option that causes the least disruption to the rest of the game.