This is a call for new Gunner Ammo that you think will make you choose the 3 slots for ammo that a Gunner has over the 1 slot that the others have.
Normal Rounds.
Normal Rounds.
This.
So much this.
Why did noone say that before? o.O
Why did I not say that before, thinking about it today?
Buff HammerThat's the other problem that needs to be dealt with. As said, engineers are currently sometimes even better at firing guns than gunners are because they can bring something that gives them a flat damage boost with no downsides. (Yes, the gunner can bring it as well, but he then becomes completely incapable of repairing. In a game that is largely about repairing things as they break, this is terrible.) I propose we instead change the effect buff hammer has on weapons. Increased reload rate? Increased turning speed? Something that isn't a flat damage boost at the very least.
Maybe instead of removing default ammo there could be a new engineering tool that is close to useless for the engineer, but might serve as a second tool for the gunner, any maybe even pilot?You mean the Pipe Wrench?
How about enabling the gunner to combine ammo types? Imagine a Charged Lochnagar Heavy flak combined with some Heatsink for increased turning! Incendary + Greased Gatling!
Bouncing Balls:
Reduces damage by 75%
Removes secondary damage type
Changes primary damage type to impact
It definitely seems like highlighting the gunner means I have to nerf some engineer stuff too.
What about the 'spring clip' thing that existed for a bit in the dev app? +200% ammunition capacity, ≈50% damage, gun unloads all rounds almost instantly upon fire, with 50%-75% more spread than usual, and once the clip is emptied, the gun breaks? (the mine launcher in the dev app was fun, 2 mines, once they deployed, they exploded as they were inside of one another, kind-of like you'd be launching an explosive that is timed to detonate in midair, was glorious, but had to rebuild. Plus the flamer was a wall of fire.
I heard that there used to be ammo types that loaded faster than others but that it could be exploited so you could use the faster reload time to load in a better ammo type... WHY IS THIS CONSIDERED AN EXPLOIT! Why not make it a feature?!
Crafeksterty I get the feeling you didn't read all of my post, i was not talking about bringing those ammo types back i was talking about getting an additional tool, sure it would be mandatory for gunners but so is some form of fire protection for the engineers.
RE: Normal Ammo
RE: Loading gun at last second
Crafeksterty I get the feeling you didn't read all of my post, i was not talking about bringing those ammo types back i was talking about getting an additional tool, sure it would be mandatory for gunners but so is some form of fire protection for the engineers.
Except fire protection ISN'T mandatory, it's just almost always needed on at least 1 engineer. Unless the enemy team has a lot of fire, you could get away with just a single chem spray. A reload tool like you suggest would be absolutely necessary ALL the time. That's not the kind of thing I'd want.
Here is my two cents on the Normal ammo being a selection, For one I am extremely against some form of crummy scavenger ammo becoming the default OR the idea of having no ammo in the guns when a ship spawns as it leaves you too vulnerable if the enemy is in your spawn point and you would get steam rolled without being able to fight back.Point A: At roundstart, you should have more than enough time to reload all your weapons before engaging an enemy.
I don't think you need to remove the value of three engineers to make gunners useful.I think that you do. The only way you're going to make gunners on par with engineers is if you make the former better at repairing, or the latter worse at gunning. (On light guns, at least.)
Crafeksterty I get the feeling you didn't read all of my post, i was not talking about bringing those ammo types back i was talking about getting an additional tool, sure it would be mandatory for gunners but so is some form of fire protection for the engineers.
Except fire protection ISN'T mandatory, it's just almost always needed on at least 1 engineer. Unless the enemy team has a lot of fire, you could get away with just a single chem spray. A reload tool like you suggest would be absolutely necessary ALL the time. That's not the kind of thing I'd want.
Correction it is ALWAYS NEEDED on at least one engineer unless you want to go down in a fiery blaze.
Sure every gunner would take this tool, but i can see engineers passing it up for an additional ammo type because they have to be running around and cant sit on the gun to see any use out of it. This thread is about giving ideas that will buff the gunner and there is my idea! I'm not proposing some god item here, it pretty much makes reloading for gunners more interactive and more efficient, and it seems small enough in scope to be easy to implement and take out if its no fun.
Sorry to come off as aggressive but i feel you misquoted and misunderstood me,
we ARE allowed to have differing opinions.
It has been known for a long time by a lot of players that nerfing the buff hammer would make gunners more viable. However buffing, how and when to buff and working it in to a repair cycle all while gunning is one of the few arts that engineers have. Removing its bonus to guns would probably remove it from many ships.
Instead of making the engineers worse, make gunners more diverse.
Gunnery tools that stack effects would make gunners superior in so many instances.
A tool to make reloading go faster.
A tool to make the gun turn quicker and farther.
A tool to give longer zoom and range.
A tool to give an increase in rate of fire.
If a gunner had tools like this, he could take the scope, the rate of fire increase and lesmok. No one would ever use an engineer on hades again.
The gunner could take reloading faster and increase rate of fire and greased rounds. This would make a gunner far superior on gattling.
A gunner with faster turning, zoom, and faster reload/burst would make a gunner a better choice on a n artemis.
Zoom scope and reload with charged could even make a gunner a viable choice on mercs.
Giving a gunner the ability to stack effects would make them outclass engineers on guns. While engineers could still stack their buff to a gun, gunners could stack multiple tools. In very high team work related moments, perhaps the gunner could apply their tools to an engineers gun in the same way and engineer applies their tools to a gunners gun.
Make gunners different, but superior to engineers on gun. Don't make engineers worse.
we could always just make weapon jams a common thing for non-gunners.
RE: Impact... sort ofImpact damage applies forces based on the damage dealt, correct? So a merc shot dealing 10 times the damage as a gatling bullet will apply 10 times the force (not actual numbers). But with the rapid fire and high ammo count of the gatling, the gatling would probably give more "push" over a full clip.
I don't mind weapons dealing Impact damage, what I don't want is that knockback given to all weapons. If were ever the case, it'd have to be cleverly limited based on some variable like muzzle speed or explosive damage etc... But same as above, I'd like it if it were linked to a gun.
(Don't want to push, or sidetrack, but i suddenly really like the impact idea and this thread begs for discussion on it - last post unless people ask for more)
I ran some numbers and based everything off of the power of a single mine. If you have any concerns, run your ship into a single mine and see what that does to you, then consider proportions.
Damage modifier: 0.2
Clip size: 0.7
Gun deals only primary damage, losing the ability to inflict any secondary damage it has.
Primary damage is converted to impact damage.
Per clip, light carronade easily wins, dealing 68% of a single mine's damage per clip. Gatling deals 56%, Hwacha 47%, and Heavy Carronade 45%. All others are below 40% per clip.
Only 4 weapons deal less than 20% damage per clip: banshee (12%), mercury (10%), harpoon, and flare gun (1% lol).
Per shot (for immediate knock-back effects), Heavy carronade loads up 45%, making it easily the best pusher. Heavy flak falls in at 20% (along with mines) per shot before carronade shows back up, along with merc and artemis.
With modifiers in consideration, The most possible damage to deal is 185 to balloon, 154 to hull, 62 to component, or 82 to armor per clip of the light carronade.
I don't know how AOE would come into play (if at all) for how impact damage works when hitting multiple components.
I ran numbers for allowing in secondary damage only and the lumberjack runs away with the show, dealing 160% damage per clip. The next closest was hwacha at 84%, meaning dropping primary damage and applying only secondary damage makes the ammo OP on one gun to the point of non-viability.
I don't have numbers comparing reload times or buffs, and it's on excel, not a google doc i can share, but if it has real interest I can make one. ^.^
The ammo type turns any gun into a utility weapon, and works best on close range weapons (preventing snipers from spamming knock-back). With the heavy nerf of the damage modifier, the guns don't deal massive damage by any means. The guns become effective against armor, hull, and balloon, but can't do enough damage per clip to be truly dangerous in terms of damage (can be nearly effortlessly denied by an engineer making a simple repair. This is not an ammo type your engineer would take - it is next to useless as a singular ammo type. However, a gunner being able to load it in when the opportunity arises, or when their own weapon is not in effective range, or when their weapon can't fire effectively (inside arming times, or firing a gatling down at a ship trying to balloon-block the shots) suddenly becomes much more desirable. A single mine can be devastating when it explodes, knocking off arcs, throwing ships into and out of situations of danger or advantage, etc. The ability to apply that pressure at any time would be incredibly tempting to any pilot, meaning gunners with their multiple ammo types are very tempting.
Thanks for your patience.
So, if I understand you right, you're theorizing (should this ammo be made) based on the damage being reduced by 80%, and the clip by 30%?Correct. A normal 100 piercing damage slug would instead deal 20 impact damage.
So, if I understand you right, you're theorizing (should this ammo be made) based on the damage being reduced by 80%, and the clip by 30%?Correct. A normal 100 piercing damage slug would instead deal 20 impact damage.
A normal 100 ammo clip would instead have 70 ammo. (and a 2 shot clip would instead only have 1 shot due to rounding, similar to lesmok)
- Pilots tools can only be used on helm (aside from spotting, which are the only unique cases)
- Engineers tools can only be used while running around and on components
- Gunner ammo can only be used on a gun, while on a gun
Where do I equip this Gunner Chem Spray? In a gunner slot?
That breaks paradigm and introduces behavior confusion.
You're right that it'll be little to be very little coding... but how do we display it to the user? It's a running-around tool only available in the gunner slot? That's weird, breaks paradigm.
What if it's an Engineer tool? But then why would a gunner bring it? It's more useful to bring something to repair the gun if you need to.
Then the question is: why is the engineer more desirable? Maybe the answer is Buff Hammer's effect on guns. Maybe we'll look at dealing with that.
RE: Instant/Passive Effects
Yeah, it fits in the overall design paradigm of when what skills are used when. However, the other thing to note is that while it is a Gunner item, it behaves differently from ammo. Now, something that's in the same class of items (the Gunner slots) doesn't do the same thing as the others. So far, the only exception are the two Spotting tools... they're Pilot tools but are used while running around.
In the case of an instant/passive gunner skill that is activated while on a gun, the item doesn't force a reload. Having this item activated will also produce a strange interaction with reload. Under the current reload mechanics, you will reload to whatever ammo you have selected. However, I won't necessarily have an ammo selected now. What do I reload? It would make sense to reload whatever was previously in the gun if I have that ammo... but how do I know what was in the gun? You can see where this goes. Not that we can't solve the issue, it's already steepening the uphill battle that we're trying to fight in making choosing Gunners more desirable than Gungineers.
A lot of the difficult issues end up being clarity of behavior and how to tell players what is going on in a way that is clean (UI) and intuitive. Intuitive and clean usually mean as simple as possible.
Just to make it clear, I'm not shutting anything down outright. I want to let everyone know all the considerations that need to be taken into account before things are set into motion, and then to steer the feedback into a direction that is more immediately actionable. There are numerous good ideas so far that I'm working into this big change.
RE: Autoloader/Reload CrankThe more I think about it, the more I like the idea of an "Ammo Crank" or some sort of ammunition whose sole benefit is to increase reload speed. The fact that it is "abused" to increase reload speed then switch to a better ammo type at the last second may be just what Gunners need to be better than engineers! On it's own it would be only moderately useful, but when coupled with other clips it really shines, as you can have a fast reload speed without having to fire terrible ammo. Since it is an ammo type used best in conjunction with other ammo types, this would actually make the Gunner's extra ammo slots useful, as Engineers would only be able to choose between good ammo types and fast reloads.
We had ammo and passives that modified reload speed. The way we did it before was subject to a lot of abuse and we ended up ditching reloading speed related shenigans. However, there's a chance faster reload may come back in some shape or form.
Having Autoloader/Reload Crank means that we would be officially making that last second ammo switch an important thing and not only a "nice to have." That's kind of interesting.
I think a change in the buff's effect to 1 min duration, +5% damage, 10% faster reload would do the trickSo much yes.
Woooow, hold up. Introduce faster reload with buffkit, then you will want gunengineers everywhere! Ok maybe just one.
But yeah, i see your point. But, i dont think that does the trick. We want gunners to be utilised for their gunnery, not make engineers weaker so that we maybe get a gunner.
Im, very much burned out on ideas. I cant possibly contribute with forum text any more.
Other than max HP ammo types would still be cool. I mean barricade + max health to heatsink would be super hot.
Along with maybe Tinker ammo, and Ammo crank. Throw in Proximity and injection, and weve got combinations that may want players have gunner on their ship.
But thats just me though.
Everyone knows that Gunners may not be the most popular role to play on your ship. Many think that running Engineers is the most beneficial due to the assortment of Repair/Buff equipment Engineers can carry. It's time to make Gunners more desirable and the easiest, fastest, and arguably best way to do it is through new Gunner Ammo.
Any additional ammo you add to the game can still be taken by engineers adding more does not change that fact, while engineers can still perform the other Repair/Buff tasks that gunners cannot do effectively.A lot of this too.
And another thing, sorry for yet another double post.
Have you considered my Injection proposal, of turning it into a Turret ammo type? I think it helps resolve a lot of gunner utility issues that are being adressed, and creates a very niche, situational ammo type that is extremely hard to use but allows for tremendous rewards if properly applied, while also slightly boosting the offensive potentials of Spires and Mobulas without affecting the other ships as much.
I'll type it here once again in case it got hidden with all the posts and stuff and I'll shut up afterwards.
Injection Clip
-95% rotation
+30..50% rate of fire
-10..30% damage
+80% damage done to gun with entire clip
Does not stop firing until clip's emptied
Practically turns the gun into a turret that can be preaimed, allowing for gunners to 'use' more than 1 guns at the same time, giving some ships the ability to improve their offense while allowing engineers to return to defensive positions (5fecta mobulas anyone?). The ammo type is far too situational to be used by engineers and gives the gunner a more active role of quickly rotating the ship to set the guns up in proper arcs. Gives pilot a whole new thing to learn, as it turns ships into 'biplanes' with fixed turret aiming. Is hard to use effectively, even harder to use to its' maximum efficiency, promoting crew communication and practice.
And another thing, sorry for yet another double post.
Have you considered my Injection proposal, of turning it into a Turret ammo type? I think it helps resolve a lot of gunner utility issues that are being adressed, and creates a very niche, situational ammo type that is extremely hard to use but allows for tremendous rewards if properly applied, while also slightly boosting the offensive potentials of Spires and Mobulas without affecting the other ships as much.
I'll type it here once again in case it got hidden with all the posts and stuff and I'll shut up afterwards.
Injection Clip
-95% rotation
+30..50% rate of fire
-10..30% damage
+80% damage done to gun with entire clip
Does not stop firing until clip's emptied
Practically turns the gun into a turret that can be preaimed, allowing for gunners to 'use' more than 1 guns at the same time, giving some ships the ability to improve their offense while allowing engineers to return to defensive positions (5fecta mobulas anyone?). The ammo type is far too situational to be used by engineers and gives the gunner a more active role of quickly rotating the ship to set the guns up in proper arcs. Gives pilot a whole new thing to learn, as it turns ships into 'biplanes' with fixed turret aiming. Is hard to use effectively, even harder to use to its' maximum efficiency, promoting crew communication and practice.
And another thing, sorry for yet another double post.
Have you considered my Injection proposal, of turning it into a Turret ammo type? I think it helps resolve a lot of gunner utility issues that are being adressed, and creates a very niche, situational ammo type that is extremely hard to use but allows for tremendous rewards if properly applied, while also slightly boosting the offensive potentials of Spires and Mobulas without affecting the other ships as much.
I'll type it here once again in case it got hidden with all the posts and stuff and I'll shut up afterwards.
Injection Clip
-95% rotation
+30..50% rate of fire
-10..30% damage
+80% damage done to gun with entire clip
Does not stop firing until clip's emptied
Practically turns the gun into a turret that can be preaimed, allowing for gunners to 'use' more than 1 guns at the same time, giving some ships the ability to improve their offense while allowing engineers to return to defensive positions (5fecta mobulas anyone?). The ammo type is far too situational to be used by engineers and gives the gunner a more active role of quickly rotating the ship to set the guns up in proper arcs. Gives pilot a whole new thing to learn, as it turns ships into 'biplanes' with fixed turret aiming. Is hard to use effectively, even harder to use to its' maximum efficiency, promoting crew communication and practice.
This is as niche as it can get. It is interesting, fun, and has a high skill ceiling and encourages having a 2nd effective ammo to salvage an attack run or to simply not have to rely only on this ammo.
Personal suggestion: An ammo that shoots around cover (not proximity rounds). A gunner would shoot away from the cover, after which the bullets would curve towards the target, thereby requiring skill to manipulate the bullet arc.
tl;dr curving bullets :) :) :)
Ammo that makes the projectile follow the cursor while it's in mid-air? It would make long range easier. Question would be if the cursor can change the arcs by moving up and down.
Blinded sights on guns
Blinded sights on guns
Huh!! Never tought of that.
Blinded sights on guns
Huh!! Never tought of that.
Edit: Actualy, i once suggested the light flaks puff of smoke when it hits something to be larger.
Now that i think about it, Is it possible to make an ammo type, force the explosion effect follow the enemy ship at where its being hit at?
For example, shooting at a racing pyramidion wont be so blinded but the smoke from light flaks shooting at it, but an ammo that prolongs the explosion animation while following the enemy ship (Or explosion animation follows the enemy ship where it hit him).
I mean, it could be straight up
Smoke Ammo
The explosion of the gun lasts for 3 seconds longer on direct hits as well as it stays with the enemy ships momentum.
Stealth shot:
Removes all graphical effects, including tracers, projectiles, and particles.
-30% damage.
-10% velocity
Smoke Ammo
The explosion of the gun lasts for 3 seconds longer on direct hits as well as it stays with the enemy ships momentum.
-50% recoil -30% Clip
Tinker Clip:
Gun is fixed (options below) by this clip.
Gun fixes itself when broken?
Damage modifiers? Reduction in firing speed? Fewer rounds?
"Engineers? We don't have time for bloody engineers!"
Going with gunners needing to fix their own guns, make a special mechanical clip that fixes the gun while firing. Opposite of the DevApp special damage modifier ammos. This frees the gunner up to take something other than pipe wrench.
Placeholder: It will not fully reload the gun, it stops the reload at ~99%. This allows gunners to leave the gun and load their special ammo in it when required. Like burst or heavy for hwacha in case you don't know which will be more useful before you don't even see the enemy. Will load the select ammo once "R" is pressed (again).
If the same ammo is select and "R" is pressed then either don't load anything or just load default ammo.
The price would be that you give up 1 full slot in order to use the other 2 more effiecently.
Heatsink Give it 25%-75% maximum health to the gun that has heatsinkOr
This way, we can be sure that a heatsink weapon is a weapon harder to disable. It is noticed by the chem spray glow. Along with the core nature of heatsink is to protect the gun.
Barricade Turn the gun into a shield. The icon is a shield with a bullet over it. 1 shot. 200% more gun health. -100% rotation speed
[This works well with the heatsink change] This is a good tool for some ships. Changing the gun into a damage soaking craze some ships would love to have. A galleon may protect his right side by giving those 2 heavy guns barricade ammo type. A pyramidion may give his side guns barricade. A spire may give all of its guns barricade for maximum protection. A goldfish can have this loaded before it reloads into a different ammo type. This in turn with heatsink will be for an unexpected effect because it does not have a chemspray glow. However, it only acts as a barricade and one shot isnt alot at all.
Acid rounds
Lower projectile speed
Lower rate of fire
Smaller clip
Each consecutive hit on a component from the same clip does more damage
What about replacing some ammo?
Im suggesting Straight up replacing greased with injection, Burst with Proximity, Charged with Lungs and Dragon.
Cus #realtalk ammo like greased and burst and charged and 2 others or 1 are very close to being default ammo like.
Having more specific ammo may make more gunner slots more desirable. As ive stated in the Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer topic.
Just wanted to make it clear and question it here. How much do we take away if we replace greased with injection etc etc.
For what i think, starting off with Heavy clip ona standard Pyra would be pretty vital as you then get every gattling shot in from max range. Until the gattling starts reloading, you can place in injection which then will take down the hull.
If so, greased, charge, burst, whatever can become something new in the future.
Concussion rounds
Lowers damage by 50%, increases clip size 25%.
Any characters caught within the AoE/Burst radius of the shot have a 25% chance to be pushed to the edge of it, possibly off the ship.
This does not affect any character on the helm or on a gun, as they are considered anchored or holding on. This means that engineers will be affected most often as they're typically the ones running around deck banging on things.
It should come with a distinctive sound, either when it 'procs' and pushes someone or while being fired to differentiate the skipping and jumping of the character from lag. It should not work with the flamer as that uses particles that pass through everything, but even with the gatlin it could be useful since, despite the small burst from the rounds, multiple hits could still jostle a character unnervingly while trying to aim their tools.
This leads to a new passive equipment called, Safety harness, which prevents being moved by concussion rounds and also halves the falling time it takes before respawning when falling off a ship (regardless of whether it was caused by concussion effects or just falling off.) As for whether it should by Pilot gear (which breaks a paradigm of only spotting equipment being usable off the helm) or Engineer gear is up for debate, I think it should be pilot gear since it would give a real choice between spyglass or not and engineers basically need their own slots for actual tools.
That said, I don't think it's a good idea. I can't imagine it would feel fun to be on the receiving end of it.Oh... gosh. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that in the entire history of the world in warfare and weapons design this is the criteria we established for weaponry; whether the target enjoys it.
QuoteThat said, I don't think it's a good idea. I can't imagine it would feel fun to be on the receiving end of it.Oh... gosh. I'm sorry. I didn't realize that in the entire history of the world in warfare and weapons design this is the criteria we established for weaponry; whether the target enjoys it.
Obviously the numbers are workable, but since it's only based off burst radius (of which each weapon has a different one and they can't be boosted with burst rounds since you'd be using these rounds) then you'd need a sizable round, that burst next to a character ( a hard target to hit since most weapons with appreciable burst have garbage accuracy for human-sized targets) and then there's only a 25% chance it pushes them to the edge, of the burst (and most places on a ship your can't fall off even if you tried jumping.)
I sure don't enjoy being on the receiving end of a flamethrower barrage, but it's there, serving it's purpose. When I think of starting multiple fires on a ship and making engineers sweat and run around trying to time their extinguishers with the repair swings of other engineers their discomfort makes me smile.
I didn't realize this thread was for 'comforting' suggestions on ammo. Perhaps you prefer the Barrel of Monkeys round? If it strikes the hull, dozens of tiny monkey avatars cover the ship, racing back and forth and covering the eyes of any gunners. Hilarity ensues.
Or you prefer to use the Two-ply rounds, so not only can those pirates trying to rob your ship, rape your female crew members, and plunder your wreckage enjoy the decorative streamers coming off their ship they can be soothed by the light scent of aloe?
Say I take your ammo and apply it to Hades.As for your Hades example, you've taken one of the heaviest weapons with a large burst radius (which is obviously what this ammo would work well with, not a Mercury Field Gun), which just so happens to fall in an arc which, except at close range will almost always drop on the balloon (where no one will ever be.) Even if you did hit the hull, you would have to catch a character in the effect range, and they would have to be unattached to a gun or helm (which even engineers can man). Furthermore, there is never a guarantee that it does anything at all. Even if you were say that 1 out 4 shots definitely moves a person (and that would be untrue) there's no guarantee that they they're blown off the ship or even that it had no effect on their performance because they were in a 6 to 9 second round time from just hitting a component with wrench or mallet and thus able to realign with no effect of their performance. Also, if your gunner is dropping 4 mortar rounds dead on where it would catch the same area, then they're a crack shot or you're right against the enemy and you should be going for damage.
Mines and Lumberjack using that effect on players... No. End of discussion.Sorry, no. Assuming that it takes 4 hits to 'proc' the 25% chance of Concussion, then your ship just flew into 4 mines. You've got a lot more to complain about and it has nothing to do with this ammo type. Even then, you've only taken the damage of hitting two mines. Also, this ammo has no affect on the mine launcher's clip size since it fires one mine at a time. I don't even think you could try and hit 4 mores on purpose to make your example even valid. If your assertion is that your opponent is able to pinpoint 4 mines into your flight path through sheer skill then they would be using normal rounds for a kill, not these, which are a delaying/attrition tactic.
Other than the potential of it being unbalanced, which everything has the potential to be, I'm not seeing the Armageddon you're describing. This is a thread for ideas, if the numbers don't work, they can be tweaked, if the burst radius on weapons turns out too large, the rounds can reduce burst size.QuoteSay I take your ammo and apply it to Hades.As for your Hades example, you've taken one of the heaviest weapons with a large burst radius (which is obviously what this ammo would work well with, not a Mercury Field Gun), which just so happens to fall in an arc which, except at close range will almost always drop on the balloon (where no one will ever be.) Even if you did hit the hull, you would have to catch a character in the effect range, and they would have to be unattached to a gun or helm (which even engineers can man). Furthermore, there is never a guarantee that it does anything at all. Even if you were say that 1 out 4 shots definitely moves a person (and that would be untrue) there's no guarantee that they they're blown off the ship or even that it had no effect on their performance because they were in a 6 to 9 second round time from just hitting a component with wrench or mallet and thus able to realign with no effect of their performance. Also, if your gunner is dropping 4 mortar rounds dead on where it would catch the same area, then they're a crack shot or you're right against the enemy and you should be going for damage.
As for hindering a gunner; against this ammo, a gunner is actually less likely to ever be unattached from their weapon since these rounds would cause reduced damage to the gun they're on, meaning they're less likely to get thrown off when it's destroyed or spend more time unattached repairing the damage, since it would take half as many swings to fix any damage, and that's just using a -50% damage example. And that's before even factoring in a 3 in 4 chance that the round does not even affect them.Mines and Lumberjack using that effect on players... No. End of discussion.Sorry, no. Assuming that it takes 4 hits to 'proc' the 25% chance of Concussion, then your ship just flew into 4 mines. You've got a lot more to complain about and it has nothing to do with this ammo type. Even then, you've only taken the damage of hitting two mines. Also, this ammo has no affect on the mine launcher's clip size since it fires one mine at a time. I don't even think you could try and hit 4 mores on purpose to make your example even valid. If your assertion is that your opponent is able to pinpoint 4 mines into your flight path through sheer skill then they would be using normal rounds for a kill, not these, which are a delaying/attrition tactic.
As for the Lumberjack, that's a primarily balloon disabling weapon. Since it's highly unlikely anyone's standing on the balloon, only a hit on the underside of the balloon might affect someone (depending on ship configuration) Since mortars arc down they're more likely to land atop or along the side of the balloon. There's a chance you might claim you could cruise under and fire upwards to catch the target as the mortar rises but then you're likely getting within the range where the mortar has no AoE. But taking it to the extreme, that you're an expert marksman and do land a mortar on the hull and it has a burst radius... Great! That's what this ammo is for. Except you just did 50% of the already low direct damage of the weapon to hulls and components (and cut it's phenomenal damage against balloons to half) and have a 1 in 4 chance that maybe an enemy crewman get skipped a meter or two over assuming they weren't manning a gun. Sure, the potential is there but the weapons you're using as an example wouldn't be better off than normal rounds.
In fact, in almost all cases, it's better to use normal rounds than these, which are way less efficient except in a few cases where they might work well. But since those cases are quite rare or unlikely, that means classes other than Gunners can't risk taking this ammo as their one option. Which means, this ammo type is exactly the kind of example of something only a Gunner might be able to bring to table in a crew. And if it turns out it's not useful, they still have their other two ammo types or normal as always.
That's the point of the thread. There's obviously testing going on and things can get tweaked. I don't know why you would assume that any idea is just going to be tossed into the game slipshod. Other than a claim that 'It takes away character choice!' (Like your choice not wear a safety harness on a flying brick tethered to a gas-filled balloon.) Everything else is able to be tested and tweaked. As for, '...taking spotters away.' There really isn't any reason not to take the Spyglass (rangefinder being the only option.) This actually adds another choice for anyone other than the pilot (which is everyone else.)
Okay, so I don't have the time to read and reply to all of this, but I didn't notice when you mentioned it only has a 25% chance to go off.
The flamer would be ridiculous.Yes, that would be powerful, but as stated, flamers use particles, not projectiles. They don't impact they pass through and as such, would be hugely overpowered which is why the ammo doesn't work with flamers.
Okay, so I don't have the time to read and reply to all of this, but I didn't notice when you mentioned it only has a 25% chance to go off.
Really, so you didn't take time to even read the suggestion before declaring it bad. It's the very first sentence of the description. You quoted it in your reply. Instead of just letting the suggestion sit, you got all negative and started going off on a rant which makes other people believe your misleading remarks. Now Sammy B.T. thinks the ammo works with flamers, which the description clearly states it does not. All you did was force someone to take time to correct your misleading statements because they gave you the benefit of the doubt that you actually had the basic, common courtesy to read a post, and actually think before quoting and bashing on it.The flamer would be ridiculous.Yes, that would be powerful, but as stated, flamers use particles, not projectiles. They don't impact they pass through and as such, would be hugely overpowered which is why the ammo doesn't work with flamers.
As for implementation, that's not the point. It was a suggestion, and even if not viable as presented, it could at least spark some ideas or creativity elsewhere. Who's going to want to put forth what might be a reasonable idea if they're just going to get ragged on by people not even taking the time to give them the common courtesy of being thankful they took an interest in trying to help and improve the game when requested.
The flamer would be ridiculous.
Balance aside, this would probably be amazingly hard to implement on Muse's side and would honestly be found by most to be more annoying than game enhancing.
The player needs to understand what is happening to them and why otherwise it will feel randomAh. Impact ammo is a pretty hard no then.
Disco ammo: Doesn't actually change the bullet property (or may even reduce its effectiveness) but has a strobe effect for it's muzzle flash and lays down a "fat beat". Lets the other team know you are here for a good time.A good time to DIE!!!
Tar grenade: reduces clip to 1 shot, causes projectile to create 1 tar cloud on impact. (doesn't have to be ship impact) this could be used to make smoke screens by shooting at wallsIf I look at this, I wonder if their could be harpoon-like ammo. Magnet-like ammo has already been mentioned.
Beacon rounds: Causes the bullet to light up a cloud for the duration of its life span. Does not replace flare because bullet life spans are very short.
In general, if there's no good way to counter something then it's generally bad design and can potentially aggravate the player.This might be off-topic, but how do you counter ammunition or buff?
In fact, let's not let anyone use are level 15 in everything with over 9000 salutes on the forums.
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I like the sound of "Proximity Ammo" someone mentioned earlier, perhaps because it bursts as soon as it enters its normal splash it can ONLY deal secondary damage, and has a bigger splash range. This would let things like a hawatcha throw up a solid wall of flames after a ship, and make hitting with a lot of weapons easer, but in exchange you would loose primary damage and projectile speed.
I like the sound of "Proximity Ammo" someone mentioned earlier, perhaps because it bursts as soon as it enters its normal splash it can ONLY deal secondary damage, and has a bigger splash range. This would let things like a hawatcha throw up a solid wall of flames after a ship, and make hitting with a lot of weapons easer, but in exchange you would loose primary damage and projectile speed.
Hmm.. We already HAVE a proximity ammo in the Dev App (though it's been temporarily removed while we test something else), but this could be a nice way to balance it.
A little outside of what is possible, but...While kind of cool in concept, it doesn't make sense as an ammo (as others have said). Also, this kind of technology seems kind of out of place in GoIO.
Optical Shot
Highly specialized
Single shot
+80% lift
+200% range
-70% Velocity
-90% damage
Shots never arm.
Gunner gets bullet cam view with view rotation.
Can spot enemies from bullet view.
These shells are hollowed out and the internals replaces with optics and transmitters. Allows you to shoot a single, slow-moving, straight-flying bullet that gives the gunner a safe view from a distance. The rotational fisheye lens camera lets the gunner look sideways for a unique ability to see around corners. They can also spot enemies by clicking like the spyglass.
Benefits to engineer: Low to null
Benefits to pilot: moderate
Benefits to gunner: High
Milivan, GOiO is set as if WWI extended for decades beyond 1918, and the world's desolation is a result of this. The camera was invented in the 19th Century, and television sets became commercially available in the 1920s. That is not to say it was invented in the 1920s, but became commercially viable then. Most likely, the early models would have been restricted to government use, in the GoIO setting, or they might not have invented the television, and instead use the precursory Scanning Disk, which was invented around 1824, which was also a component in the early Mechanical Television sets. So, yes, the technology would be in-place.
A good solution for the normal ammo selection is to have all cannons pre-loaded with normal ammunition upon spawning. Once the initial clip is spent, it loads in the current ammo selected if not already done so.This is a great idea on how to handle having "normal" ammo as a loadout ammo type.
That way all players can use the guns without panic to get their ammunition loaded, while forcing choice on ammunition type.
An interesting bonus to that is the ability to have a gunner pre-load ammunition types and letting an engineer use it afterward without losing the said type (until the clip is emptied, of course.)
Oh, milivan, they had basic cameras, of the kind that could take burst photographs, at about 12 pictures per second, which also allowed for the early motion pictures with real people to be filmed.
Does it have to be realistic?
what bout knockback bullets that slow the ship infront of you to prevent it ramming your ship.Or at least slow him down enough to give your captain enough time to reposition the ship.
I think this is being gone about the wrong way. If we really want gunners, I posit we remove ammo from all the other classes. It may ruin the 3-1-1, 1-3-1, 1-1-3 symmetry, but if you are really looking to make gunners a more viable class, this is the best way I see to do it.
If you really need 2 guns with special ammo, you take 2 gunners. If you need one, take one gunner. If your ship can run just fine without special ammo, take no gunners. I don't think it would break the game. I think it is something to think about.I think this is being gone about the wrong way. If we really want gunners, I posit we remove ammo from all the other classes. It may ruin the 3-1-1, 1-3-1, 1-1-3 symmetry, but if you are really looking to make gunners a more viable class, this is the best way I see to do it.
Well thats the worst way to go about it! that just makes gunners mandatory by making it so only one type of crew build can be formed and takes all the fun out of the game. Its not like gunners are some useless smucks here that actively detract from a crew they are useful if you know how to use them. Granted there are some guns only good with one ammo but there are also guns that need the multiple ammo types to have full potential ie hades, light flak, and practically all the heavy guns.
Regardless removing ammo from other classes would not fix gunners it would break the game.
If you really need 2 guns with special ammo, you take 2 gunners. If you need one, take one gunner. If your ship can run just fine without special ammo, take no gunners. I don't think it would break the game. I think it is something to think about.
How about an ammo type to counter chemspray, i.e. wash it off? Some kind of water shots, perhaps? These would probably help the opposing team by removing fire stacks, though. How about some sort of chemical solvent-type shot? Either a spray or a bomb-like projectile (like a big glorified water balloon). It could vary between weapons. (Big shot on most guns, but carronades, gatlings, and flamers get a spray)
Chemical Solvent
Removes the effects of Chemspray
Does only 50% damage <-- that can change for balance
as a spray -60% ammo capacity
as a bomb Only 1 shot
OH GOD, FLAMETHROWERS THAT REMOVE CHEMSPRAY
Paint.
Damage: 0
Range: 50%
Ignition chance reduced to 0%
Why? Painting the enemy Galleon pink with a flamethrower is funny.
1) we already have amazing thing which balances chemspray. Time.
2) "Chemical solvent" is kind of silly name from terms of chemistry... Cause lots of them are highly flammable, and huge amount are completely impossibe to set fire with. The ones which are flammable are usually evaporise really fast to use them as a fuel for gun.
3) in current game balance flamethrowers is a threat even for chemsprayed ship. Pings/seconds spend on gunning/carronades which destroy spray status
How about an ammo type to counter chemspray, i.e. wash it off? Some kind of water shots, perhaps? These would probably help the opposing team by removing fire stacks, though. How about some sort of chemical solvent-type shot? Either a spray or a bomb-like projectile (like a big glorified water balloon). It could vary between weapons. (Big shot on most guns, but carronades, gatlings, and flamers get a spray)There is another thread running about a "water cannon" light gun concept that extinguishes fires and pushes other ships, perhaps "washing off" Chemspray would be an interesting feature for the gun, but not an ammo type. I think Chemspray is balanced as it is.
Chemical Solvent
Removes the effects of Chemspray
Does only 50% damage <-- that can change for balance
as a spray -60% ammo capacity
as a bomb Only 1 shot
OH GOD, FLAMETHROWERS THAT REMOVE CHEMSPRAY
There is another thread running about a "water cannon" light gun concept that extinguishes fires and pushes other ships, perhaps "washing off" Chemspray would be an interesting feature for the gun, but not an ammo type. I think Chemspray is balanced as it is.
I'd like to see that. Could you direct me to that thread?
I for one would complain!
For one I am extremely against some form of crummy scavenger ammo becoming the default OR the idea of having no ammo in the guns when a ship spawns as it leaves you too vulnerable if the enemy is in your spawn point and you would get steam rolled without being able to fight back. But would it be possible to have it so that the weapons wait before they decide their ammo like as soon as an someone jumps on the gun the ammo in their first slot is the one selected as if it was there all along.
I understand your point, but I think the "steam rolling spawns" would be negated by the fact that captains always have multiple spawn points to choose from, and most wise captains spawn farther away to give crews prep time anyway. Spawning right on top of an enemy and instantly unloading a Hwatcha would not be an option because a gunner would have to load it first, so it removes the factor of having a fresh ship suddenly pop into a fight from thin air.
Besides, I think loading guns would simply be an extension of the normal "rolling into battle" prep that happens: pilot flies, engies buff or spanner out kerosine damage, gunners run around loading their guns with preferred. It just changes it from a option to a responsibility.
Of course, after a gun is used, it never will stay empty: the last shooter will load their first ammo as soon as it empties or reloads.
In all, any problems from starting with empty guns can be solved with minor changes to player strategy.
A little late to the thread, but here's some suggestions on ammo types
Point Blank Ammo
+50% Primary damage.
Projectile disappears when it reaches it's arming time.
Projectile Deals no secondary damage.
The thinking is that this ammunition gives the light flak/heavy flak/hades some usefulness when the enemy gets inside their arming time. Likewise, it's not an ammo type the engineer would take, but it adds some versatility to the guns which have this ammo.
Tracer ammo
Enemy hit with this ammunition is spotted.
Hit Clouds are lit up for the life of the projectile.
-X% damage
-X% clip size.
A good ammo to spot ships. I'd mine point with this ammo. Again, this ammo is all about the utility. An engineer would not usually take this because it's not required, only nice to have.
Freezerburn Ammo
Deals X% more damage to components that are chemsprayed.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while chemsprayed, the gun takes X damage while fired.
(again, adds some utility to shut down clever chem-spraying engineers).
(Alternatively)
Converts hit components that are chemsprayed to X stacks of fire
If this gun is fired while chemsprayed, it converts the chemspray to X stacks of fire.
Overload Shot
Deals X% more damage to components that are buffed.
Ignites component s that are buffed with X stacks of fire.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired, it ignites the gun with X stacks of fire.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while buffed, it takes X damage.
This adds some utility to gunners and gives a clever captain and gunner the tools to shut down a buffed ship. It also gives some need for corrdination "don't buff, loading Overload/Freezerburn. ammo" In short, it gives options.
I don't agree. It's opportunity cost. You get the ability to maybe shut down chemspray, but you give up keeping the gun immune to fire and extra damage from buff/charged/whatever. The gunners need some niche and autonomy and need to be able to do what the engineer can't. Those ammo types fill that role, and are too niche for an engineer to take.
Although, I don't think it will make fire OP. To pull off a freezerburn/fire combo would take about as much coordination or more coordination as a gat/mortar. Rmember, the gunner would have to aim at specific components. Furthermore, the gat/mortar kills outright, while the fire just disables. As of now, I've got no reason (other than for fun) not to take a gat/mortar or hadies/flak pryamidion, but with these ammo types, I could see running a carronade/flamer or even the banshee with a anti-chem gatling gun.
Also, I'd welcome a gunner ammunition which can help midigate or counter engineer tools. It gives the gunner some usefulness and a distinct role.
If you're worried about damage, maybe it could look like:
Freezerburn Ammo
Deals X% more damage to components that are chemsprayed.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while chemsprayed, the gun takes W damage while fired.
-Y% secondary damage.
While loaded, this gun takes Z% more shatter damage
Where X > Y
(Alternatively)
Has X% chance to converts hit components that are chemsprayed to X stacks of fire.
-Y% secondary damage.
If this gun is fired while chemsprayed, it converts the chemspray to X stacks of fire.
Overload Shot
Deals X% more damage to components that are buffed.
Ignites component s that are buffed with X stacks of fire.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired, it ignites the gun with X stacks of fire.
-Y% secondary damage.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while buffed, it takes X damage.
Where X > Y.
Also how does it make buffing underpowered when buffing can be applied to engines/balloon/hull as well? I don't get how one ammo type can make the entire buff tool underpowered. It's not like I'll tell my squid crew "don't bring the buff hammer, the gunner is bringing freezerburn."
Freezerburn Ammo
Deals X% more damage to components that are chemsprayed.
If a gun loaded with this ammunition is fired while chemsprayed, the gun takes W damage while fired.
-Y% secondary damage.
While loaded, this gun takes Z% more shatter damage
Put some chemspray on those fires, man. Deep breaths. I didn't mean to come off as confrontational, so I apologize if I did.
Okay, let me point something out you seem to be missing.
On my Flamethrower x3 Squid, I load up 3 Engies with your Freezerburn Ammo. Suddenly, what was meant to basically be a counter to my ship just became a massive target that my ship probably eats alive. In one case, I just buffed my damage with 0 downsides. In the other, I just destroyed their anti-fire protection and probably just destroyed them with easy. A flamethrower can EASILY hit an entire ship on its own. Any ammo that can be used to counter the Engineer can be made OP with large-AoE weapons.
It's a risk/reward sort of thing. Captians now have to ask, Is buffing worth making that part more vulnerable to a very specific ammo type? It's those questions that have no clear answer which make the game fun to play! Note that it doesn't make the ship easier to be killed, it just makes the parts easier to disable.
As for the Buffing being UP, I was referring to your other ammo which interacted with Buffing. If I see even a single buff hammer on the enemy team, I immediately ask my Gunner to bring your Overload Shot, and suddenly that ship can be eaten alive by my Flamers. Doubly so if they also have Chemspray and the gunner brings Freezerburn as well. I can counter 2 enemy engineers with just 1 Gunner, effectively discouraging the enemy from bringing those tools. Why would you bring something if it will just make it easier for your ship to be killed?
That said, following the pattern Ammo is going with based on Dev App (at least for the moment), a more appropriate penalty to the ammo you're suggesting would be a straight up -% to all damage, and a big one, like -50% or more. Then, the +% would be something like +80% or even +100% against the specific conditions. This means you use this ammo, and the gun is worthless against anything but it's specialized target. Still don't think it's a good idea to have ammo that interacts with tools that are either absolutely necessary, or already kind of rare, depending on if you're talking about chem or buff.I'd agree that a strait up damage penalty would be more appropriate.
Theoretically, coming up with ammo types that are more niche means that players will need to take advantage of the the additional gunner slots.
I can think of a better way to balance those counter-buff and counter-chem ammo types.
Freezerburn Ammo
Adds 1 fire stack per X seconds remaining on Chemspray effect
Deals -25% damage with -20% (at least - maybe worse) fire chance
Overload Shot
Deals -66% damage
Deals +300% damage (applied to already-modified damage value, totals up to +25% from normal damage level) to buffed parts
Tar Ammo:
-100% damage
When your shots airburst, they create Tar Smoke clouds
White Phosphorus rounds
like Tar Ammo but starts fires instead of straight damage, probably more powerful, closer range?
useful on explosive guns when the enemy is out of range but approaching. Gets gunner on metamidion off the gatling occasionally.
Tar Ammo:
-100% damage
When your shots airburst, they create Tar Smoke clouds
White Phosphorus rounds
like Tar Ammo but starts fires instead of straight damage, probably more powerful, closer range?
useful on explosive guns when the enemy is out of range but approaching. Gets gunner on metamidion off the gatling occasionally.
... Your Phosphorus rounds don't really make any sense. We already have Incendiary.....
That is what I meant.Tar Ammo:
-100% damage
When your shots airburst, they create Tar Smoke clouds
White Phosphorus rounds
like Tar Ammo but starts fires instead of straight damage, probably more powerful, closer range?
useful on explosive guns when the enemy is out of range but approaching. Gets gunner on metamidion off the gatling occasionally.
... Your Phosphorus rounds don't really make any sense. We already have Incendiary.....
I think he wants airbursting incendiaries that leave a lingering cloud of fire.
The size or duration of the cloud should depend on the radius of the weapon's AoE so it's not possible to load a Flamer up with Tar rounds and spit out insane amounts of death clouds everywhere.
Tar Ammo:
-100% damage
When your shots airburst, they create Tar Smoke clouds
White Phosphorus rounds
like Tar Ammo but starts fires instead of straight damage, probably more powerful, closer range?
useful on explosive guns when the enemy is out of range but approaching. Gets gunner on metamidion off the gatling occasionally.
... Your Phosphorus rounds don't really make any sense. We already have Incendiary.....
I think he wants airbursting incendiaries that leave a lingering cloud of fire.
The size or duration of the cloud should depend on the radius of the weapon's AoE so it's not possible to load a Flamer up with Tar rounds and spit out insane amounts of death clouds everywhere.
That is what I meant.So, to clarify, do you want these clouds to actually deal fire damage? Or do you want them to create fire stacks? Because if it's fire damage you want, they would actually have to deal significantly MORE than the flamer for them to matter at all. After all, the Flamer actually only deals like 1.3 damage, but hits like 16+ times per second.
I think that it would be fine as long as the clouds did significantly less fire than a flamer and overlapping clouds did not double damage. It would not be useful in a flamer except to increase the effective range when running away, and fire stacks themselves do no hull damage.
Except Flamers have a rather large AoE. So you would in fact leave flaming clouds of death everywhere.
Tar Ammo:
-100% damage
When your shots airburst, they create Tar Smoke clouds
White Phosphorus rounds
like Tar Ammo but starts fires instead of straight damage, probably more powerful, closer range?
useful on explosive guns when the enemy is out of range but approaching. Gets gunner on metamidion off the gatling occasionally.
... Your Phosphorus rounds don't really make any sense. We already have Incendiary.....
I think he wants airbursting incendiaries that leave a lingering cloud of fire.
The size or duration of the cloud should depend on the radius of the weapon's AoE so it's not possible to load a Flamer up with Tar rounds and spit out insane amounts of death clouds everywhere.
Except Flamers have a rather large AoE. So you would in fact leave flaming clouds of death everywhere.That is what I meant.So, to clarify, do you want these clouds to actually deal fire damage? Or do you want them to create fire stacks? Because if it's fire damage you want, they would actually have to deal significantly MORE than the flamer for them to matter at all. After all, the Flamer actually only deals like 1.3 damage, but hits like 16+ times per second.
I think that it would be fine as long as the clouds did significantly less fire than a flamer and overlapping clouds did not double damage. It would not be useful in a flamer except to increase the effective range when running away, and fire stacks themselves do no hull damage.
An ammo idea il share here also.
TNT
An ammo that gives a ship the ability to do Impact AOE damage when it dies.
-90% less ammo
-90% damage
When the ship dies with a gun loaded with this, it will do 75 impact damage, multiplied with more weapons loaded with this.
Squid and Goldfish will blow up up to 225 dmg maximum
Pyra and Spire will blow up to 300 maximum
Mobula and Junker 375
and Galleon 450
Its just a number and the reason why its impact is to deliver a distortion like a push effect. So in most cases, ships will have either 2 or 1 with this ammo loaded.
IF THIS IS POSSIBLE
A weapon giving the ship some kinda of a buff...
Then it would be cool to have other ammo types that do something else to the ship.
Proximity Rounds:
-40% damage
+25% velocity
+30% explosion radius
detonates as soon as the projectile is within blast radius of anything, including enemy shots midair
Can be used for inexperienced gunners to maximize their damage when shooting difficult guns
Can be used for all gunners to extend the range of difficult and arc-ey weapons, there is no ammo that increases range less than 70%
Can be used for experienced gunners to shoot down rockets and slower moving shells, Gat/Mortar has more options to approach a sniper if they can shoot down the Lumberjack shots with the mortar, at least some of the time.
Would rarely be taken by engineers because of the damage penalties, but can make new gunners more valuable (get less frustrated with the game early and might stay), and gives unique capabilities to gunners, buffing the class as a whole.
Inspired by this guy's idea for a weapon that acts similarly, which would be interesting as well https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4046.msg69823.html#msg69823
up to MUSE to decide which flavor it should be, or both.
If you imagine Poker, it's like if you had your hand and also a supplementary 2-3 cards where you could switch a card in your hand with a supplementary card whenever you wanted. Poker suddenly becomes very difficult.
Even with the ammos we have now. The gun and its damage types defines much of its role. The ammo only augments their uses slightly.Throwing my opinion in on this, but that tends to extend match wait times. I've been sitting in completely full games in lobby for 5-10 minutes because the captains are hashing it out and changing loadouts to counter what the other guy is doing with crews rebuilding every minute or so. The strategy in GoI shouldn't be 'countering what they have', it should be, 'utilizing our ships as effectively as possible as a team'. It's a team-based ship combat game, and so each team needs to work with each other and not doing their own thing to counter X, Y, Z.
I fear that if we completely change the role of each gun just because we have this or that ammo, then why bother looking at your enemy's loadout? Why bother having different guns in the first place? Ammo will become the defining element.
Throwing my opinion in on this, but that tends to extend match wait times. I've been sitting in completely full games in lobby for 5-10 minutes because the captains are hashing it out and changing loadouts to counter what the other guy is doing with crews rebuilding every minute or so. The strategy in GoI shouldn't be 'countering what they have', it should be, 'utilizing our ships as effectively as possible as a team'. It's a team-based ship combat game, and so each team needs to work with each other and not doing their own thing to counter X, Y, Z.
I admit I'm not very well versed in the deepest intricacies of the ammo and how they work, and what's been tried or not, but I had a few ideas, only some of them serious.Some nice ideas here, but just so you know, lochnagar is already useful. At least in the Heavy Flak, Lumberjack & Mine Launcher
Serious Ideas:
An ammo that repairs the gun it is loaded in over time
A buff to Lochnagar so that it is actually useful for something, maybe gunners take like, half damage to their guns from it
An ammo that gets extra shots per trigger pull
Less serious ideas:
An ammo that returns a shot to the clip if a shot hits
An ammo that makes shots that hit deal damage and keep going through whatever they hit
An ammo makes all shots hit instantly
Halving the accuracy of non-gunners/Doubling the accuracy of Gunners (Probably my worst idea of the bunch.)
I'm aware some people have found use for it...If you're a gunner, you don't need to take it over another ammo. That's the one good thing about being a gunner and having three slots for ammo.
I've just never had a captain suggest using it on anything over, well, any other ammo.
Autofire Ammo
Once loaded, will automatically reload and fire the gun. With no gunner, it will only fire straight out, relying on the pilot to aim the ship.
-90% rotation arc (due to the gun having to be 'locked' in place)
+20% gun health.
Ammo that does what some people think heatsink does. Increase arcs (maybe at the cost of damage)
My original thought was to have it lock in neutral position, since gun ammos only have an effect while loaded, thus it would swing back to neutral center during reload. It would be interesting if it would lock wherever you were aiming once it was loaded, and remain there during reload. You could create a one gunner trifecta.Oh god the Pyramidions you'll see. You mean I can have my gat-mortar with 2 flame-throwers constantly covering my whole front-left arc with noone manning them? ;)
What if we gave it +10,000% ammo, 50% rate of fire, -99% rotation speed, and full clip firing (like Injection). That would give it pretty similar characteristics to my original thought, with no added coding or mechanics.
So, this is probably going to sound ridiculously overpowered, but how about an ammo that disables any part it hits for a very short time?This gives me a slightly less OP idea:
Guns can't fire, Engines stop providing thrust, the and the Balloon gets them stuck at where they are height-wise. Probably for a massive decrease in damage per shot, admittedly, and maybe a range reduction because can you imagine this on Flamers? There would be a new meta. And it would be fire.
When you're bored, you are boring.
Fireworks ammo.
-gun does no damage but shoots out pretty sparkly fireworks
-Different fireworks effects depending on gun loaded.
Guaranteed way to crash everyone's game, drop their fps to -10, and cause everyone to leave the match? Yes please.When you're bored, you are boring.
Fireworks ammo.
-gun does no damage but shoots out pretty sparkly fireworks
-Different fireworks effects depending on gun loaded.
Paid DLC only. I'd buy it. ;D
Guaranteed way to crash everyone's game, drop their fps to -10, and cause everyone to leave the match? Yes please.
I think I may have suggested this before, but how about an Ammo that heals the gun it's loaded in over time?
The only ammo that needs to happen imo is having heatsink work if it is being reloaded...having the entire reload cycle be vulnerable really defeats the purpose of letting the gunner shoot while being flamered. We can have the 3 stack removal only happen after reload, but reloading with it selected should preserve the chemspray effect.
Anti-gravity rounds:
+[whatever it takes]% lift to make arcing rounds go up instead of down.
"What goes up must take them down."
So adding Anti-G rounds would basically make flamers shoot straight up.That actually sounds pretty fun. And very broken.
I think it means turn the gun further than it is currently limited to. This would dramatically effect game balance since blind spot dancing is one of the skills that separate good pilots from great ones.Anything that's good enough to be used will affect game balance, that seems self-evident? How much it changes balance depends on the numerical parameters - obviously if it lets a gun turn a full 360 on any axis that's insane, and if it only increases arcs by 1 degree that's probably useless. I imagine there's an in-between where it's useful but not overpowering.
I imagine there's an in-between where it's useful but not overpowering.
Gun arc changes have already been part of the gun ammo tweak tests. Not on new ammo, but on existing ones. We won't ever see an ammo specifically for something like thatwhy not? Is there a thread/post about it in the dev-app section?
Gun arc changes have already been part of the gun ammo tweak tests. Not on new ammo, but on existing ones. We won't ever see an ammo specifically for something like thatwhy not? Is there a thread/post about it in the dev-app section?
Muse isn't going to make a special ammo for it when they're already going to have it on that many different ammo types.