Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: .Daring Do. on November 17, 2014, 10:06:51 pm
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In Guns of Icarus, i think ramming can be very effective. I like to think of it as air ship kung fu. or more like a ball room brawl. As a necessary tactic and should be used wisely. Now there's a lot of builds for ramming there're good builds and bat-shit insane builds, Yet again ramming is bat shit insane.
I've come up with a theory... not sure if there is a established theory but I think the damage is calculated by the speed and newton mass compared to the speed and mass of the other
In theory the more mass and speed the more damage that's applied to it's opposite.
Theory to Ramming
Every ship has a different shape and different sizes of the hull. Each ship being easy to do damage to the hull and not being able to hit the hull at all. The spire, galleon and mobula having their hull big and easy to ram. With the squid and goldfish, their hull and their balloon can be rammed being kinda hard. I think the junker has the hardest hull to hit with the balloon being 2-3 times the size of its hull.
Each ship has symmetry when it come to engines, hull and balloon. Each ship reacts differently to ramming by turning, being tossed around and such. There are factors that must be put in to play. The enemy ships speed, how the ship is turning, rising up and down. I can't put a exact point on the ship that the ram would be most effective due to those factors.
What I use
Pyramidion- Princess Molly-
Slots
1. Flamethrower
2. Carronade
3.Mine launcher
4.Mine launcher
If you look at each and every ship the pyramidion is ideal and designed for ramming. Given that it's the second heaviest ship next to the galleon. Like a wedge the pyramidion has a triangle nose that extends over the balloon however, when you do ram the damage is mostly transferred to the hull. Being a disabling kung fu Pyramidion is at most my favorite to use. Yet it doesn't strip hull as much as any other builds, but it does take out guns, engines, balloon. It can be tough if the engineering crew on the enemy ship can maintain fire and damage from the carronade, I like to remember that all it takes is one mistake with chem spraying, extinguisher or any repair loops.
Theory build- I've seen this a couple of times
Pyramindion
1. Gatling gun
2. Gatling gun
3. Mine
4. Mine
The 2 Gatling guns can strip the armor in seconds then building up speed to the max for effective hull damage or one hit kill.
You can ram with other ships. The gallon has the biggest mass and I have seen some pretty devastating rams. With buff engines and moonshine... the numbers can be overwhelming.
Thaedeal: It is most effective to ram when the hull is down. If you ram the hull with the armor up, only the armor will take the damage and not transfer to the hull.
Blue, Sapphire sage, Sprayer: Use kersone to keep guns in arc. Kersone keeps you steady as you ram and reduces angular drag. Be cautious to ramming because your doing damage to your self as well.
Richard LeMoon- Don't always burn kerosne and moonshine and watch your engine. Use momentum and don't lose course... a bit of trigonometry I suppose. Its important to compensate for other ships movement and how the ram will carry you and what position you put your self in. You can do more damage as a straight run rather than turning in to the ram.
LeonXross- If there is a opportunity and I can guarantee that I can kill him its a no brainier.
Theory
The Jerk
I was in a match with me disabling a squid as it made it self against a wall. At full speed I tried to ram it against a wall but i missed and quickly kicked on the phoenix claw. I hit the wall with the phoenix claw and i went from a 90 degree angle to a 180 in 2 frames, it jerked me in to the squid. The turning of the ship instantly kill the squid. I know the squid had full health because i only disabled its engines it hit the wall and the armor broke.
Please add in your thoughts on ramming and your ramming ships.
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Confession time.
Whenever I play pilot intentionally, I always get up close and personal.
So far, the ships I've flown are semi-good for this, squid, and a goldfish.
However, I really, really, REAALLLYY want to do damage as a pilot, so I pretty much turn my ship into velcro and stick onto the opposing ship.
So far I haven't managed to ram a pyramidion without dying. :-[
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I like your theory. (Although I'm debating whether this is a theory or a generalization or something else in my head).
Spire is by far the easiest ship to ram, especially when you get on its many blind sides.
But I have to point out, Mobula can dodge a ram with its high vertical acceleration. And its not wise to get close to a Hwacha Galleon if you haven't seen them shoot. Up close, they can easily lockdown the ramming ship.
The gallon has the biggest mass and I have seen some pretty devastating rams. With buff engines and moonshine... the numbers can be overwhelming.
Yes, Galleon rams are surprisingly good. I think everybody knows I have a trauma from Galleon-harpoon-moonshine-aft-rams. Some guy massacred me with that my first non-novice match.
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My advice on ramming.
Don't.
Now what I mean by that is if you are still a newer player and listen to absolute statements from veterans players, you are probably not skilled enough to know when it is most effective to ram and you need to wait until you're good enough to learn when to forgo this advice for certain situations.
The reason for this advice is two fold.
1. Missed rams are often disastrous and good pilots and can often bull fight a pyramidion. A missed pyra ram means you have a ship with terrible turning and acceleration suddenly unable to engage.
2. Oftentimes your guns are far better than a ram. The closer you are to danger, the further you are from harm. The act of ramming brings you closer to an enemy ship which can actually often means it is harder to hit an enemy due to reduced arcs.
Guns are generally better than ramming. Ramming is best used for decisive moments, capitalizing on vulnerabilities. It should generally not be the initial plan.
This is just an old duck's opinion though, many debate it.
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To add to what Sammy said, ramming is very fun and in any match that isn't very competitive I will ram as often as possible. Generally speaking there are times you should never ram, and ramming works best as an offensive weapon when combined with the enemy ship hitting an object like the ground or a rock as well as being pushed by your ram.
Times Not to Ram:
-ramming a galleon 99% of the time
-ramming a squid that has full engine health (squids are squishy but can easily dodge you)
-ramming a mobula that has full balloon health (same thing as squids, mobulas are squishy but can easily dive or climb above you)
-ramming a munker/mine focused build (I hope I don't need to explain why ramming in a mine field is dumb)
-in general using a ram build against a team of all sniper ships is usually a bad idea unless you can be sneaky and trap them in their spawn
Times to Ram (basically any situation where ramming isn't the worst thing you could possibly do)
-when you or your team mate's carro has locked an opponent on the ground/on an object (they will die eventually but ramming will speed things up)
-knocking an enemy's guns off arc, this can work when an enemy is shooting you, but it works best when an enemy is firing on your team mate and does not see you coming (tough to do but it works well sometimes and its affects are more dangerous to your enemy when you either have moonshine or bumpers on, which both prevent your from turning and moonshine will knock your enemy back further)
Essentially I am saying the same thing as sammy, except I enjoy ramming as often as I can (mobula rams OP hax) and I assume that he is a bit less likely to ram with his flying considering he plays comp. and I think the ducks still run with junkers which are not ramming ships (idk for certain though, haven't played with or against Sammy and the Ducks in a while so I might be wrong). Ramming IS SO MUCH FUN but it only works well in certain situations and when combined with certain pilot tools or weapon builds and isn't something that can be used as your main offensive strategy, but mainly as a supplement to what you are already doing.
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There are two types of horizontal rams:
Damage rams, most effective when the enemies hull is down, moonshine or kerosene is a good aid to this.
Controlling rams, very difficult to pull off well and requires a lot of practice, you ram the enemy so that you're in their blind spot, if you're controlled enough and don't use kerosene or moonshine you'll be able to slow your ship down and keep them facing the way you want them for as long as you need, but it requires a lot of practice, awareness and good comma with your engineer.
Two types of vertical rams.
Up, normally done when you're coming from under an enemy, it's very hard to make this effective but can be very useful when an ally needs help if you have hydrogen, not advised for most players..
Down, very effective when you're equipped with a carro, pop ballon position yourself on top and drop, chute vent makes this such a beautiful way to crush Junkers..
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https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3222.msg55032.html#msg55032 (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3222.msg55032.html#msg55032)
Ramming is good when done right. If you are going to ram, make sure it leaves you with gun arcs on.
I think I remember fighting against you on Water Hazard. I tried to make it 1v1 but my ally kept tagging along and yours was a ghost ship. You weren't bad, did a good job keeping arcs when we did vertical splits.
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I fought against the man who wrote the guide which made me the pilot I am today?! Or do you mean original poster?
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Read the post redria linked here! It's good stuff. And while you're on it, don't get indoctrinated by redrias kerosene obsession. Real men use moonshine to turn enemy ships into drive-throughs
newton mass
reading this makes me shudder.
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I fought against the man who wrote the guide which made me the pilot I am today?! Or do you mean original poster?
The original poster. ;)
Wundsalz, kerosene is always better. I'll never give that up. :D
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Ah okay Redria, I'll keep my eyes open for you in the skies :)
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I fought against the man who wrote the guide which made me the pilot I am today?! Or do you mean original poster?
The original poster. ;)
Wundsalz, kerosene is always better. I'll never give that up. :D
Kerosene is definitely superior, in every way 8)
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But but but... Galleon-Harpoon-Moonshine-Aft-Ram!
Or a surprise ram with moonshine acceleration!
Or a drunk ram from consuming moonshine while piloting!
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Kerosene is definitely superior, in every way 8)
it's like using eco-mode in a car race.
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We should all pretend moonshine squid rams are OP on a fully armoured galleon and see how many newbies do it :)
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We should all pretend moonshine squid rams are OP on a fully armoured galleon and see how many newbies do it :)
+1
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We should all pretend moonshine squid rams are OP on a fully armoured galleon and see how many newbies do it :)
Sorry, beat you to the punch. Got screamed at by an experienced engineer when my "hit-and-run" tactic failed and ended up bumping into the back of a galleon.
Man, that was not a fun match. :'(
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Oh I'm sure most of us have done it by mistake :)
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Got screamed at by an experienced engineer when my "hit-and-run" tactic failed and ended up bumping into the back of a galleon.
Dangit, you're not supposed to literally hit the enemy in a hit and run.
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When I hit and run, I kero for the lightest ship (typically a junker). I ram (or they move out of the way) through them to the other side. Sometimes I get a kill. Most of the time, I disorientate the enemy for my ally.
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My concept of Hit-and-run is pop balloonm, disable guns with flamer, then run away so your ally has the heat taken off him for a few seconds.
Back on topic, I feel that ramming needs to be acompanied with hefty piercing power. One doesn't simply charge at a ship with full hull armor using a flamer - hades and expect the ship to take any damage.
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I've come up with a theory... not sure if there is a established theory but I think the damage is calculated by the speed and newton mass compared to the speed and mass of the other
In theory the more mass and speed the more damage that's applied to it's opposite.
[...]
[...]
I've come up with a theory... not sure if there is a established theory but I think the damage is calculated relative momentum of the ships. In theory the more momentum the more damage that's applied in total.
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Fixed it for you. In school they teach momentum=speed*mass which should be a good enough approximation for this game. I assume the total damage done to both ships is dependent on the momentum the ships have relative to eachother, while the ratio of damage distribution is equal to the ratio of their masses.
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Kerosene can save your engineers work and more stable.
But if your Daring and aggressive use moonshine... wisely.
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Double Gatling moonshine on Paritan rumble... *drools*
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*** ADD ON ***
Pin Points
In theory, I kinda mapped out the center mass of each ship to apply max force to cause max damage. Take in account for the enemy turning and movements as factors that may vary. I Alway thought the middle of the ship is where the hull is and that can be true as well.
Gold fish- Looking at the gold fish on the right side (position of the _ slot) you want hit between the 3rd and 4th panel to the right or ideally between the helm and balloon
Junker- Near the 4th slot on the junker there is a metal barrel or something you basically want to hit that or right above the 2nd slot
Squid- you want to hit the ramp that leads up the the balloon or between the hull and balloon
Galleon- Even if you could there's a construction beam right bellow the smallest lowest balloon from the front of the right of the ship you want to hit the first circle closest to the front of the ship
Spire_ its basically a stick from bottom to top but on the side you want to hit the stairwell that connects the bottom to top
Mobula- pretty straight on but on the side you want to hit between the upper guns and the main engine
Pyramidion- on the balloon the is a construction rail (boxes with diagonal lines) you want to hit the 4th box to the right or the top of the staircase that leads to the helm
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We should all pretend moonshine squid rams are OP on a fully armoured galleon and see how many newbies do it :)
Just pretend you're a Typhoon round. Squids are probably cheap to build, so fill the hull with lochnagar shot, buff the engines, replace the fuel with pure moonshine, and tape the trigger of the front flamer down. Equip parachute, aim at Galleon, and jump.
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It looks even prettier if you have a rear flamer, max afterburner illusion :D
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Just pretend you're a Typhoon round. Squids are probably cheap to build, so fill the hull with lochnagar shot, buff the engines, replace the fuel with pure moonshine, and tape the trigger of the front flamer down. Equip parachute, aim at Galleon, and jump.
Kinda off-topic, but I feel like suicide ships will be a thing in adventure mode.
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In theory, I kinda mapped out the center mass of each ship to apply max force to cause max damage.
does the ram location relative to the mass center actually influence the damage dealt to the ship?
Also: how did you map out the center of mass for each ship?
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Kinda off-topic, but I feel like suicide ships will be a thing in adventure mode.
Maybe guided mines? More on-topic, I am curious to know whether center-mass increases damage as well. Unless you were aiming for the least amount of bounce, I'm not sure how that would work.
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If you can get on a pyra blind side with a pyra and ram at forward thrust too you'll be able to ram them for as long as your engineer keeps his màllet hits up or till their ally kills you, assuming your gunners are not gunning, sometimes slow rams can be such a beautiful thing...
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In theory, I kinda mapped out the center mass of each ship to apply max force to cause max damage. Take in account for the enemy turning and movements as factors that may vary. I Alway thought the middle of the ship is where the hull is and that can be true as well.
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I believe hitting the enemy ship in a way your velocity vector would go through their centre of mass or not does not make a difference in terms of damage.
We know impact damage (the damage rams, terrain and mines do) is responsible for bouncing ships around, from experimentation with different ammo type and buffed/unbuffed mines we also know higher impact damage means more bouncy.
Now, if the damage was increased by hitting an enemy ship towards its centre of mass it would mean both your and their ship would get pushed away from each other more post ram. Since the ram has different effects on the enemy ship depending where you hit it in relation to its centre of mass, a quality statement about the relation of the damages can only be made by observing the ramming ship. However, in some tests to that I never noticed a huge difference in the ramming ship's behavious after the ram. Small differences could occur by minimal derivations in testing conditions which could not be controled. (It is damn hard to produce the same test over and over in this game)
It can be concluded that either there is no or a insignificant difference in damage depending on where you hit the enemy ship.
@ Wundsalz where the centre of mass of ships is can be estimated by testing with rams. Ram a ship closer to its centre of mass and you shove it more, ram it farer from it and you make it rotate more. Since you can't turn a ship's vertical axle by ramming it, you can assume the centre of mass is actually more like an axle of mass.
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@ Wundsalz where the centre of mass of ships is can be estimated by testing with rams. Ram a ship closer to its centre of mass and you shove it more, ram it farer from it and you make it rotate more. Since you can't turn a ship's vertical axle by ramming it, you can assume the centre of mass is actually more like an axle of mass.
I really just wonder how Daring obtained his data as there are different approaches than test rams to estimate the center(axis) of mass.
In case you did test runs on this matter I'd be interested in information about them as well.
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Nah I didn't do that, since I was interested in actual rams and not the centre of mass I used test dummies. I might have been quick to assume the centre of the target painting is also on the centre of mass. Wether it actually is or not didn't matter to me since it was definetly closer to the centre of mass than the outer border of the test dummy.